Options
Coin Doctors
BLUEJAYWAY
Posts: 8,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can the group please explain to this novice just what they do and why it is an acceptable practice ethically? Pros/cons? Over on the sportscard side this is totally frowned upon in relation to any form of doctoring sportscards. No trimming, coloring of cards etc. You can provide a link as well if one exists with a definitive explanation. Thanks
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
0
Comments
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
It is frowned on here as well. As for a definition of what is doctoring, don't get this crowd started.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
It is frowned on here as well. As for a definition of what is doctoring, don't get this crowd started.
Just what the doctor ordered! New Year Year!
Coin doctors treat these coins using many techniques so the coins can get well again.
Then they can be sold for lots of money.
Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
Source: http://www.pngdealers.org/news...n-doctoring-definition
Regardless of what definition you use, enhancing a coin's appearance can be profitable for dealers and collectors alike; so a lot of people are very passionate about it, one way or the other. A lot of people also consider certain practices acceptable that others would not.
I suggest you decide how you define coin doctoring; learn the indicators of a doctored coin based on your own definition; and find dealers and collectors who are like-minded.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
There is 2 much money to be made doctoring coins, you will not stop it.
That, combined with the fact there are no consequences. Doctors are basically untouchable.
Coin Doctors swear to a Hypocritical Oath as opposed to a Medical Doctors Hippocratic Oath.
become debatable and not everyone agrees. There are so many methods of AT - some considered doctoring, others widely practiced and accepted. The real purists accept nothing
performed by human intervention. That would even include professional conservation - which
others support since it may prevent the loss of a valuable coin. Study the issue...there are
endless threads here on the topic - then make your own decisions. Cheers, RickO
Things become less clear when you start talking about artificial toning, re-coloring (copper especially), conservation to remove environmental damage (shipwreck or dug coins), and dipping (using dilute acid to remove old toning).
Many coins are unquestionably unacceptable, some are obviously messed-with, and many are somewhere in the middle.
You saw what the doctors did to Bruce Jenner. Woman of the Year, sport !
I'm starting a coin health insurance company to help pay for coin doctoring.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Say you also have an 1879-P circulated Morgan dollar so that you have silver from the same composition as the 1879-CC. You have a technique whereby you can melt down the 79-P, and use that silver to fill in the two gouges. Then with some new robot-assisted magic laser beam and a little time with an electron microscope, you can adjust the metal on the surface so that at the microscopic level, the silver flows in the filled in areas the exact same as it did originally. Under a halogen light with a 20x loupe you can no longer see any evidence of moved metal, and under an incandescent to the naked eye there are absolutely no breaks in the luster. Coin looks exactly like it did right before it was stapled. (Assume that there was no significant toning on the coin so there's no toning difference either).
Now, say that I have the coin at my table at a show, and I present the coin along with a DVD that contains the video of the exact procedure here, so that there is no attempt at deception.
Doctoring? Conservation? OK? Not OK?
To me - Doctoring includes motive. It's not just making a coin "appear to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be." It's making a coin appear to be in a better state of preservation than it had been, and not disclosing that the coin had work done. Tooling a coin to "improve" the look, sending it to PCGS telling them you tooled it, and getting it back in a "Geniune" holder with the code saying it's tooled - not the same to me as messing with a coin and then passing it off as not having been messed with. I also distinguish between temporary and permanent changes to a coin. Again, tooling as I described, that's permanent. I altered the coin, I told you I altered the coin, and you can decide if you want the coin or not. Using some putty on a gold coin to make it look better than it should, trying to pass it off without telling you about it, knowing that the puttying is temporary and that at some point the coin will turn - that's doctoring. Plus, putty is not gold, and trying to pass off a coin as gold when there's a non-gold substance on it is also dishonest.
Yes, I'm aware that I could mess with a coin, disclose it to a buyer, then that person could try to pass the coin off as original. At that point though, it's not me who is the one lacking in ethics, it's the person who bought from me because they withheld key information about the coin when trying to sell it.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
It's still doctoring.
Why not sell the coin as is? The obvious answer is that you couldn't sell it for as much money.
Although I would appreciate the full disclosure of your efforts, I would not buy your coin.
Of course, that's my opinion. The great thing is, everyone is free to form his/her own.
The only laser I'm familiar with is the one that changes the channels on my TV.
bob
Major numismatic organizations are not consistent in their responses to coin doctoring. For example, I attended the ANA Summer Seminar in 2012 and there were coin doctors who were serving as course instructors! I unknowingly had lunch with one of them.
When major numismatic organizations are okay with employing doctors, it's hard to do anything about them. Although the PNG has included doctoring in its Code of Ethics, I don't think a single case has been successfully brought to them, though not for a lack of trying. Collector-minded dealers such as Laura and Mark Feld worked hard on this but, in the end, there may be too much support for it. These days, I view it as essentially an accepted part of the hobby. Caveat emptor.
bob
Though the doctors may harm the hobby, my bigger concern is about the "birthers" in China creating counterfeit coins and slabs.
They are both concerns and it's good to address them both. A single doctored coin can generate much larger losses than a single counterfeit coin. A big concern about doctored coins is that there's seemingly nothing that can be done about the doctors themselves.
Regarding counterfeits, I've stated that I think the US government needs to get involved in harmonizing laws around the HPA. It's hard to fight "counterfeiting" in China when the country's laws make manufacturing pre-1949 coins perfectly legal there. It's the US import laws that are violated when they are brought into the country, not any China manufacturing law. Counterfeit slabs, however, may be a problem in China if they are covered under copyright laws.
Can the group please explain to this novice just what they do and why it is an acceptable practice ethically? Pros/cons? Over on the sportscard side this is totally frowned upon in relation to any form of doctoring sportscards. No trimming, coloring of cards etc. You can provide a link as well if one exists with a definitive explanation. Thanks
You probably have just as much doctoring going on in the sports card and sports memorabilia world. Just because you and your "brothers" frown upon it doesn't mean it isn't rampant. Trimming cards, lifting/hiding/altering spots, hiding creases, steaming cards, lightening/darkening, sharpening corners, and whatever else can be dreamed up, will continue to be done....to both cards and coins. Cards must have a lot in common with the doctoring of US currencies.
Doctoring is not an "accepted" practice in coins. Dipping coins is a "benign" method of doctoring. It goes up from there. There must be something similar to that in cards where it's generally accepted but certainly alters the original card (humidity, steaming, pressing, trimming, etc.). Can a sports card expert absolutely determine in nearly all cases that a cards edges have not been trimmed, cut, straightened, etc? If you cannot consistently detect these alterations, then there's no difference between being "tolerant" or "ignorant." Either way, it goes on. I'm just glad that when unc coins are altered, it usually messes with the luster flow lines. When the doctors can perfectly "restore" lost luster flow lines, then I'm in trouble.
Coin Doctors swear to a Hypocritical Oath as opposed to a Medical Doctors Hippocratic Oath.
My vote for post of the New Year!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
However, I am concerned about doctoring in both hobbies. Any time there's a way to cheat and make money, where the cost of the cheating and penalties for getting caught are very low relative to possible profit, there will be cheaters. Simple economics.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
It's still doctoring.
What is difference between doctoring and conservation? Is it the physical act of what is done? Moving metal (or replacing it) physically is doctoring, but dipping, which does it chemically, is conservation? Or is there no such thing as coin conservation and any change is doctoring? I don't want to buy dipped coins, personally. I would rather have a really dark coin than a bright dipped coin. The PNG says that dipping is explicitly not doctoring. But that seems arbitrary - as if maybe PNG members dip coins and didn't want to be called doctors? If I think that dipping is a horrible thing to do to a coin, is it ok for me to call it doctoring as opposed to conservation? If so, is this one of those things where the definition is just going to vary from collector to collector or dealer to dealer?
Personally, I am ok with whatever as long as it's disclosed. I personally don't buy "details" coins because I don't trust that I have enough capacity to determine a fair price, even though there have been several "details" coins I've seen that certainly look nice. However if the details are disclosed and someone else wants to buy it, then I'm ok with it. It's deception that bothers me. That's why I focus more on motive than on the physical actions taken with the coin. One thing that I would say is almost universally doctoring though is adding foreign substances to make the coin appear better - putty for example. Maybe a "universal" truth here contradicts the entire rest of my post. I'm fickle that way.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Doctoring is not an "accepted" practice in coins.
My reasoning that doctoring is essentially accepted in coins is that the doctors are essentially untouchable. PCGS, Laura, Mark Feld, etc. all have been involved to stop doctoring, but doctors continue to be hired and undisciplined so they have a de facto carte blanche to continue their work. Can you name a single instance where a doctor was disciplined by the ANA or PNG?
It's not the way I or many would like it to be, but it appears to be the way it is.
Major numismatic organizations are not consistent in their responses to coin doctoring. For example, I attended the ANA Summer Seminar in 2012 and there were coin doctors who were serving as course instructors! I unknowingly had lunch with one of them.
When major numismatic organizations are okay with employing doctors, it's hard to do anything about them. Although the PNG has included doctoring in its Code of Ethics, I don't think a single case has been successfully brought to them, though not for a lack of trying. Collector-minded dealers such as Laura and Mark Feld worked hard on this but, in the end, there may be too much support for it. These days, I view it as essentially an accepted part of the hobby. Caveat emptor.
Some of the most important things I've learned about coins have been from coin docs. There's noone better to teach you what to look for and how a truly original coin is supposed to look. After all, these guys have studied it more than anyone else in the pursuit of replicating it.
I remember a story I was told by someone who a friend had insinuated had AT'd a coin as it had a look he was known for in his circle. And not a regular joe-schmo with an EZ Bake oven and a silver eagle kind of AT, but a legitimate monster coin. And his reply was that no, it wasn't his work, but that sometimes nature just works perfectly and creates a masterpiece. Even the coin docs appreciate a spectacularly original coin.
Don't read into this as support for doctoring, but understand that the doctors do have a role in the education of collectors, and some do give back.
Major numismatic organizations are not consistent in their responses to coin doctoring. For example, I attended the ANA Summer Seminar in 2012 and there were coin doctors who were serving as course instructors! I unknowingly had lunch with one of them.
When major numismatic organizations are okay with employing doctors, it's hard to do anything about them. Although the PNG has included doctoring in its Code of Ethics, I don't think a single case has been successfully brought to them, though not for a lack of trying. Collector-minded dealers such as Laura and Mark Feld worked hard on this but, in the end, there may be too much support for it. These days, I view it as essentially an accepted part of the hobby. Caveat emptor.
Some of the most important things I've learned about coins have been from coin docs. There's noone better to teach you what to look for and how a truly original coin is supposed to look. After all, these guys have studied it more than anyone else in the pursuit of replicating it.
I remember a story I was told by someone who a friend had insinuated had AT'd a coin as it had a look he was known for in his circle. And not a regular joe-schmo with an EZ Bake oven and a silver eagle kind of AT, but a legitimate monster coin. And his reply was that no, it wasn't his work, but that sometimes nature just works perfectly and creates a masterpiece. Even the coin docs appreciate a spectacularly original coin.
Don't read into this as support for doctoring, but understand that the doctors do have a role in the education of collectors, and some do give back.
I think it's fine for doctors to give back and be rehabilitated. The issue is that there are no consequences for doctoring so there's no reason to stop. If a known doctor can be employed by the ANA without being disciplined, why would doctoring ever stop? It wouldn't... which is why I say doctoring is accepted, and even supported, in the coin hobby. Supporting doctors without having them disciplined can be a form of supporting doctoring. Just recognizing the way it is.
Doctoring is not an "accepted" practice in coins.
My reasoning that doctoring is essentially accepted in coins is that the doctors are essentially untouchable. PCGS, Laura, Mark Feld, etc. all have been involved to stop doctoring, but doctors continue to be hired and undisciplined so they have a de facto carte blanche to continue their work. Can you name a single instance where a doctor was disciplined by the ANA or PNG?
It's not the way I or many would like it to be, but it appears to be the way it is.
There's probably far more over-grading and price gouging on coins than doctoring. Can you name where such a person was disciplined by ANA or PNG? It would usually have to be pretty egregious to get a positive finding by those guys. And if it were that bad and rampant it would likely make it to court first...then jail. It would be a very short list in any event. From that I would deduce that over-grading and price gouging in coins is an "accepted" practice. And from my own experiences over 40 years, I'd have to say an emphatic "yes."
There's probably far more over-grading and price gouging on coins than doctoring.
One somewhat common response to doctoring appears to be deflection. Instead of addressing doctoring, the response is to say something else is worse so doctoring is okay.
We're talking about doctoring here. PCGS has tried bring doctors to court. Laura has tried bringing doctors to the PNG. The reality is that doctors don't get disciplined, in court, by the ANA, by the PNG, or by public opinion. In fact, they are hired by the ANA. If that's not support, I'm not sure what is. And although many people know who the doctors are, the doctors "can't" be named so it's more support and protection from the hobby.
It's okay to recognize things the way they are. It's just a part of the hobby we have to live with.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If you can make a coin better, why wouldn't you do it?
I can roll back my odometer when I want to sell my car. It's not legal but it gets done all the time. Some people accept it honestly that a 40 year old car has X miles. Some other people look at the pedals for wear and call b/s. Just gotta know where to look.
Major numismatic organizations are not consistent in their responses to coin doctoring. For example, I attended the ANA Summer Seminar in 2012 and there were coin doctors who were serving as course instructors! I unknowingly had lunch with one of them.
When major numismatic organizations are okay with employing doctors, it's hard to do anything about them. Although the PNG has included doctoring in its Code of Ethics, I don't think a single case has been successfully brought to them, though not for a lack of trying. Collector-minded dealers such as Laura and Mark Feld worked hard on this but, in the end, there may be too much support for it. These days, I view it as essentially an accepted part of the hobby. Caveat emptor.
Some of the most important things I've learned about coins have been from coin docs. There's noone better to teach you what to look for and how a truly original coin is supposed to look. After all, these guys have studied it more than anyone else in the pursuit of replicating it.
I remember a story I was told by someone who a friend had insinuated had AT'd a coin as it had a look he was known for in his circle. And not a regular joe-schmo with an EZ Bake oven and a silver eagle kind of AT, but a legitimate monster coin. And his reply was that no, it wasn't his work, but that sometimes nature just works perfectly and creates a masterpiece. Even the coin docs appreciate a spectacularly original coin.
Don't read into this as support for doctoring, but understand that the doctors do have a role in the education of collectors, and some do give back.
Artificial toning is Civil War era doctoring, or maybe more accurately Plastic Surgeon doctoring, or heck maybe both. When you get to where FredF was going with smoothing and physically changing the coin is where the real problems are. A $5k dipped & retoned Barber isn't a problem IF you read roadrunners post and more importantly - understand it. Where he talks about luster flow lines and all that. David Akers went into this and that knowledge will save people. You can look at the fabric of the coin and see it.
Now back to what FredF was talking about. Smoothing and moving metal and all that. There are some people who can do anything to coins. Mint mark bye-bye. Move this, move that. Make this from something else, etc. Sometimes the best get tricked. On $100k pieces. Omega Man, Becker. Those guys made coins that fooled everyone for a while. Omega even counter-stamped his and they still got by. Beckers still do.
Here is the definition of coin doctoring approved by the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) Board of Directors and PNG member-dealers in 2012:
Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
Source: http://www.pngdealers.org/news...n-doctoring-definition
A good definition, although another better one might be: "If you can't tell your customer you did it to the coin, it's coin doctoring."
I got a bad case of oven hues….
SonoranDesertRat:
Zoins:
No one has written more about or further investigated coin doctoring than I have. There is a great deal that can be done about this problem. It is important to encourage experts who are opposed to coin doctoring to publicly identify doctored coins. Silence benefits coin doctors.
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
The Formal Introduction of the PCGS 'Coin Sniffer' at the PCGS Luncheon
Also, I believe that I have clearly defined coin doctoring, especially in my just cited recent article on The Specter of Coin Doctoring. My definition is fairly consistent with the definition put forth by PCGS.
Defining Coin Doctoring and Dipping, Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors – 09/08/10
The higher negative term "coin doctor" refers to the practice of turning sow's ears into faux silk pursues almost always with the intent of defrauding a less than astute collector. Usually this involves the significant moving or removal of metal or the application of fake toning. Both involve damage to coin and often significant reductions in its true value.
It is important to encourage experts who are opposed to coin doctoring to publicly identify doctored coins. Silence benefits coin doctors.
It may be more useful to publicly identify doctors as many doctored coins have been shown but they keep coming.
Not only a true story, but it actually happened
He should have offered to turn everyone else in the room in too.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
There's probably far more over-grading and price gouging on coins than doctoring.
One somewhat common response to doctoring appears to be deflection. Instead of addressing doctoring, the response is to say something else is worse so doctoring is okay.
We're talking about doctoring here....
It's not "deflection"...it's hypocrisy. Why not address the bigger problem? We can feel high and mighty about an issue that can probably never be corrected, yet roll our eyes on the bigger issue of just ripping off buyers on coins that aren't doctored.
I agree with your last post that it's an accepted practice among dealers in the industry. You don't make waves for your fellow dealers. Caveat Emptor is the only "rule" in play. And that's basically how the judicial system looks at white collar crime in the collectible's industry. Yeah, they might get a dealer every few years and send them to jail. But that's a mere 1 out of a 1,000.
There's probably far more over-grading and price gouging on coins than doctoring.
One somewhat common response to doctoring appears to be deflection. Instead of addressing doctoring, the response is to say something else is worse so doctoring is okay.
We're talking about doctoring here....
It's not "deflection"...it's hypocrisy. Why not address the bigger problem? We can feel high and mighty about an issue that can probably never be corrected, yet roll our eyes on the bigger issue of just ripping off buyers on coins that aren't doctored.
I agree with your last post that all of them are an accepted practice among dealers in the industry. You don't make waves for your fellow dealers. Caveat Emptor is the only "rule" in play. And that's basically how the judicial system looks at white collar crime in the collectible's industry. Yeah, they might get a dealer every few years and send them to jail. But that's a mere 1 out of a 1,000.
Hypocrisy? I think that's a little over the top and I don't think that applies here since no one said not to look at those issues.
The issue is that people want to say doctoring is not accepted but not really deal with it. PCGS, Laura, Mark, and others want to work on it, but others would rather look the other way. If the issue you raised is present anywhere, it may be in doctoring
If a lot of dealers like doctoring, the ANA is going to hire doctors, and it's not going to change, would it be better to just say it's an accepted part of the hobby?
There's probably far more over-grading and price gouging on coins than doctoring.
One somewhat common response to doctoring appears to be deflection. Instead of addressing doctoring, the response is to say something else is worse so doctoring is okay.
We're talking about doctoring here....
It's not "deflection"...it's hypocrisy. Why not address the bigger problem? We can feel high and mighty about an issue that can probably never be corrected, yet roll our eyes on the bigger issue of just ripping off buyers on coins that aren't doctored.
I agree with your last post that all of them are an accepted practice among dealers in the industry. You don't make waves for your fellow dealers. Caveat Emptor is the only "rule" in play. And that's basically how the judicial system looks at white collar crime in the collectible's industry. Yeah, they might get a dealer every few years and send them to jail. But that's a mere 1 out of a 1,000.
Hypocrisy? I think that's a little over the top and I don't think that applies here since no one said not to look at those issues.
The issue is that no one wants to deal with doctoring which gets talked about all the time. PCGS, Laura, Mark, and others want to work on it, but others would rather look the other way.
Some CD's are known. No one wants to name names just the same.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......