How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
Here's a little story, and you can judge me from it.
Yes ago, a dealer who was a well known coin doctor and made no bones about it, offered me a sutler token. The piece had attractive brown toning, but it had spot on it which I didn't like. I passed on the piece and told him why I had done so. A few days later he brought it back to me without the spot. This was a copper piece which nomally is the hardest type of item to "fix." Now the piece was quite attractive and I bought it knowing he had worked on it.
More 20 years later I still own the piece, and it hasn't changed. So the question is, was it doctoring or was it restoration? I say restoration. If you can't tell something has been done, and it's attractive and stable, what's the harm?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
Actually lacquering copper was a great way to preserve copper. I believe it was a very common practice years ago. It is also very easy to remove.
If you can't tell something has been done, and it's attractive and stable, what's the harm?
The problem is when these are lumped in together with situations where you can tell something has been done and there's financial loss, like the following fake head. Because of the tendency to accept some doctoring, all doctoring is accepted and doctors face no consequences.
Also, saying "what's the harm" is another way to tell collectors that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby that isn't going away because enough people like it. If it is truly that way, why not just say it like it is?
1. Accepting some doctoring is not accepting ALL doctoring. Just cause you said so doesn't mean it's so.
If your removing lacquer or a spot or toning is not moving metal or laser cutting FSB.
2. And "doctoring" is an accepted part of the hobby if the defination includes dipping, removing lacquer ect. Not moving metal.
I still feel like most of the is about the definition of Doctoring. No one is going to say that that SLQ's head is acceptable or the laser carving FSB in dimes.
These examples of what can be done to a coin by these"artisans" has made me very leery of future coin purchases. For instance, I was totally unaware of lasering the bands on dimes. I'm glad I started this thread as it has been most informative.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
As far as I know PCGS found out the people that were doing such as went to court with them. Don't know much more then that or the outcome. But it's not like that happens lots. Just the 1 group from what I've been told and they found them. That sounds like a good thing to me. Like some doctoring is not ok and has consiquences
And those are not "Artisan's" those are crooks altering coins for profit. That's the bad kind of doctor IMO and I think in almost all peoples opinion except maybe their own lol
Originally posted by: MidLifeCrisis Can we focus on education here?
Lots of threads on this topic over the years...
How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
I don't have any pictures to post but if you want to see some lower end toned coins just look at most of the AT coins on eBay. If you want to see the high end coins just look at all of the rainbow toned coins that are graded and certified. These coins were not stored for decades in canvas mint bags. And most did have some help.
BillJones:The higher negative term "coin doctor" refers to the practice of turning sow's ears into faux silk pursues almost always with the intent of defrauding a less than astute collector. Usually this involves the significant moving or removal of metal or the application of fake toning. Both involve damage to coin and often significant reductions in its true value.
Though obviously well intentioned, this statement is not entirely accurate. I really wish that people would read my articles, in which both the PCGS definition and my definition are discussed. My definition is fairly consistent with the PCGS definition. In any event, coin doctoring is not always damaging. The adding of putty or related substances to gold coins, for example, is often deceptive without being damaging. In some cases, the added substances may be safely removed just with running water. In many cases, putty or other substances added to a MS-64 grade gold coin gives the impression to a professional who views the coin quickly that it merits a grade of MS-65 or MS-66!
It is clearly misleading to say that coin doctoring is aimed at "a less than astute collector." On the contrary, the coin doctoring that is relevant to this discussion is aimed at deceiving graders at PCGS and NGC along with everyone else. The point is to deceive experts. This is a major reason why coin doctoring continues to be the most serious problem in the coin community. Experts are often deceived.
IMO, experts should spend more time inspecting the precise physical characteristics of coins. At first, I may believe that a coin truly grades MS-65 or higher and then, after I tilt it at various angles under a lamp, and use a glass, I find that there are added substances covering significant imperfections.
It is clearly misleading to say that coin doctoring is aimed at "a less than astute collector." On the contrary, the coin doctoring that is relevant to this discussion is aimed at deceiving graders at PCGS and NGC along with everyone else. The point is to deceive experts. This is a major reason why coin doctoring continues to be the most serious problem in the coin community. Experts are often deceived.
Comments
Lots of threads on this topic over the years...
How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
Yes ago, a dealer who was a well known coin doctor and made no bones about it, offered me a sutler token. The piece had attractive brown toning, but it had spot on it which I didn't like. I passed on the piece and told him why I had done so. A few days later he brought it back to me without the spot. This was a copper piece which nomally is the hardest type of item to "fix." Now the piece was quite attractive and I bought it knowing he had worked on it.
More 20 years later I still own the piece, and it hasn't changed. So the question is, was it doctoring or was it restoration? I say restoration. If you can't tell something has been done, and it's attractive and stable, what's the harm?
Doctor doctor give me the news…
I got a bad case of oven hues….
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
More 20 years later I still own the piece, and it hasn't changed.
I'd definitely call that restoration. That's not a coin doctor, that's a coin surgeon!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Can we focus on education here?
Lots of threads on this topic over the years...
How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
Actually lacquering copper was a great way to preserve copper. I believe it was a very common practice years ago. It is also very easy to remove.
If you can't tell something has been done, and it's attractive and stable, what's the harm?
The problem is when these are lumped in together with situations where you can tell something has been done and there's financial loss, like the following fake head. Because of the tendency to accept some doctoring, all doctoring is accepted and doctors face no consequences.
Also, saying "what's the harm" is another way to tell collectors that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby that isn't going away because enough people like it. If it is truly that way, why not just say it like it is?
If your removing lacquer or a spot or toning is not moving metal or laser cutting FSB.
2. And "doctoring" is an accepted part of the hobby if the defination includes dipping, removing lacquer ect. Not moving metal.
I still feel like most of the is about the definition of Doctoring. No one is going to say that that SLQ's head is acceptable or the laser carving FSB in dimes.
There is a difference.
And those are not "Artisan's" those are crooks altering coins for profit. That's the bad kind of doctor IMO and I think in almost all peoples opinion except maybe their own lol
Can we focus on education here?
Lots of threads on this topic over the years...
How many threads actually show examples of coin doctoring (in its various forms)?
How many threads describe what to look for?
How many threads actually help people become better at avoiding a doctored coin?
Let's use this forum to educate and help each other. I would start the first thread, but I don't have any pictures and wouldn't really know what to say. I have posted threads about waxing and lacquering copper, but those were based on limited exposure and knowledge.
And yes, I think waxing and lacquering copper are forms of doctoring. Can we get beyond the debate about what is doctoring? If you think it's doctoring then tell us about it and post examples if you can.
I don't have any pictures to post but if you want to see some lower end toned coins just look at most of the AT coins on eBay. If you want to see the high end coins just look at all of the rainbow toned coins that are graded and certified. These coins were not stored for decades in canvas mint bags. And most did have some help.
BillJones:
Though obviously well intentioned, this statement is not entirely accurate. I really wish that people would read my articles, in which both the PCGS definition and my definition are discussed. My definition is fairly consistent with the PCGS definition. In any event, coin doctoring is not always damaging. The adding of putty or related substances to gold coins, for example, is often deceptive without being damaging. In some cases, the added substances may be safely removed just with running water. In many cases, putty or other substances added to a MS-64 grade gold coin gives the impression to a professional who views the coin quickly that it merits a grade of MS-65 or MS-66!
It is clearly misleading to say that coin doctoring is aimed at "a less than astute collector." On the contrary, the coin doctoring that is relevant to this discussion is aimed at deceiving graders at PCGS and NGC along with everyone else. The point is to deceive experts. This is a major reason why coin doctoring continues to be the most serious problem in the coin community. Experts are often deceived.
IMO, experts should spend more time inspecting the precise physical characteristics of coins. At first, I may believe that a coin truly grades MS-65 or higher and then, after I tilt it at various angles under a lamp, and use a glass, I find that there are added substances covering significant imperfections.
The Formal Introduction of the PCGS 'Coin Sniffer' at the PCGS Luncheon
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
It is clearly misleading to say that coin doctoring is aimed at "a less than astute collector." On the contrary, the coin doctoring that is relevant to this discussion is aimed at deceiving graders at PCGS and NGC along with everyone else. The point is to deceive experts. This is a major reason why coin doctoring continues to be the most serious problem in the coin community. Experts are often deceived.
But a tolerated / accepted problem.