*** Update - Altered MM Coins *** - 3 New Barbers. Worth Submitting?

BryceM

I recently acquired these three Half Dollars. I love Barbers, but outside of my type set I don't buy many, and almost never in these grades. The patina on some is better than others. One has some rim issues. Whaddya think?







*** Update ***

Sorry everyone, but all three of these coins have had the mintmark removed. I thought seeing these might be interesting to a few folks. First, a little background:

From the Price Guide:



From the guide, it's easy to understand the motive here. I've been looking for some "gotcha" coins to illustrate the value of TPG grading with our local club. I posted a WTB thread on the BST and a dealer offered these three coins to me. He picked them up as part of an estate liquidation and fortunately recognized the MM issue.

After inspecting these three coins, I'm reminded that there is a very large difference between authentication and grading. When viewing the coins in-hand, the 1915 is fairly obvious, with a different surface texture and different coloration in the MM area. The 1914 shows a slightly different surface sheen when tilted under a light and evidence perhaps of some stray tool marks in the area. The 1913 is much more difficult for me. Maybe the coin was carried around for a while after the work or maybe there are some die marker "tells". I'm not seeing it on that one. Here are a few closeups:







Kudos to many of you for picking this up so quickly. I asked shorecoll to edit his post, thinking that others wouldn't be so suspicious. Withing a few minutes others were commenting on it as well.

Perhaps the dealer will stop by and fill in some of the details. It's a messy world out there folks!

rhedden

Yes on the 1913.

I would not submit the 1914 due to reverse rim damage, but coins like this sometimes get in plastic, so send it if you do not care about the cert. fees.

Yes on the 1915.


JMHO.

shorecoll

Interesting.

amwldcoin

While I can't tell for sure from the pictures. They all look like possible candidates for removed MM's. You didn't buy them from a state close to the West Coast did you? There is supposedly a person out there notorious for this. Aside form that from the pictures none of them look straight gradable to me.

coindeuce

No

No

Yes

Boosibri

Maybe
No
Yes

dogwood

13 yes
14 no
15 yes- looks like someone rubbed the mm area to get a cleaner look at it thru a loupe to check authenticy.
But, only an expert with it in hand can say for sure.
They're nice XF details for sure.

lordmarcovan

Since they're key dates, I'd submit 'em all, if you deem it worth the fees.

Worst case scenario, one or two end up in Gennie holders. That still doesn't hurt, when it comes time to sell 'em.

Treashunt

ditto, go for it

bosco5041

I would submit them all but I'm a bit of a risk taker. I submitted a few coins a while back and was surprised at some that straight graded.

JeffMTampa

I would definitely submit them all, but I believe the '13 is the only one with a better than 50% chance of straight grading. The '13 should 40, the '15 likely will come back as damaged, and the '15 is likely cleaned. But then again, the graders may be in a good mood! Small risk, big potential reward.

Removed MM? Maybe, but too tough to tell w/o the coin in hand.

ricko

Submit them......likely lower grades or genuine, but will preserve them and collectors still look for those.... Cheers, RickO

drwstr123

BillJones

1913 - Choice VF-30 - worth getting graded.

1914 - EF sharpness, but the damage on the reverse rims would make it a "details" coin - not worth grading

1915 - To me it's touch and go as whether this coin will be a VF-35 or EF-40 - I'd say it's worth a shot at getting it graded.

keyman64

No on the 14

MFH

<< <i>While I can't tell for sure from the pictures. They all look like possible candidates for removed MM's. You didn't buy them from a state close to the West Coast did you? There is supposedly a person out there notorious for this. Aside form that from the pictures none of them look straight gradable to me. >>



My gut reaction as well.

Too much going on in the area
that would have had a MM.

If genuine - and there is a good
chance of that as well, why not
submit them - economy submission -
even if the 14 Genuines. ( which it
will if proven genuine ) . It's just a
safe guard saying the coins are what
they seem to be. Leaving them raw
will only hamper the resale.... the new
customers will also have the same doubts.

Remove all doubt and get them graded.

BillJones

<< <i>While I can't tell for sure from the pictures. They all look like possible candidates for removed MM's. You didn't buy them from a state close to the West Coast did you? There is supposedly a person out there notorious for this. Aside form that from the pictures none of them look straight gradable to me. >>



You might be right about the removed mint marks, but I don't see why they would all be rejected for cleaning, which you seem to imply. All of them look to be "market acceptable."

The different toning under the eagle's tail on the 1915 is the strongest indicator of a possible removed mint mark.

BryceM

See updates in the first post.

Honestly, I wonder a bit about the 1913 and 1914.........

keyman64

Wow, very interesting.

kaz

Thanks for a very informative thread! Great photos. I can see what look like some kind of tool marks on the 14 &15, I think... not so sure about the 13. I bet looking at them under a stereo microscope would be helpful.

amwldcoin

<< <i>

<< <i>While I can't tell for sure from the pictures. They all look like possible candidates for removed MM's. You didn't buy them from a state close to the West Coast did you? There is supposedly a person out there notorious for this. Aside form that from the pictures none of them look straight gradable to me. >>



You might be right about the removed mint marks, but I don't see why they would all be rejected for cleaning, which you seem to imply. All of them look to be "market acceptable."

The different toning under the eagle's tail on the 1915 is the strongest indicator of a possible removed mint mark. >>



The 13 to me has obviously suffered a cleaning
The 14 due to rim damage
The 15 has obviously to me been artificially toned or messed with in some degree. The left Obv. field also looks tooled to me.

Of course this could change seeing them in hand.