China and India buy less gold
cohodk
Posts: 19,129 ✭✭✭✭✭
Compare and contrast with other reports you may have heard.
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/
Excuses are tools of the ignorant
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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Comments
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Compare and contrast with other reports you may have heard.
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/ >>
But demand from Europe and the US grew. And the central banks continue to be strong buyers of gold. So what are you trying to accomplish with this thread?
<< <i>
<< <i>Compare and contrast with other reports you may have heard.
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/ >>
But demand from Europe and the US grew. And the central banks continue to be strong buyers of gold. So what are you trying to accomplish with this thread? >>
Demand grew in the ol US of A huh? How much did the central bank here in da ol US of A buy???...
Just buy some gold and lock it in a box. Safe and easy and you don't even have to have more than one thought in your head except "oo, shiny! others will want this!"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Folks have been doing so for thousands of years! It works!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Well gold is the simple, time tested way to store capital, particularly for those with low asset levels, and low trust and knowledge of productive building of wealth through capitalism
Just buy some gold and lock it in a box. Safe and easy and you don't even have to have more than one thought in your head except "oo, shiny! others will want this!" >>
This is an elitist attitude about it. Misguided, in my opinion. People buy hard assets like gold for all kinds of reasons. Mainly to protect what they have worked hard for. Those people can come from vastly different asset levels.
We don't really have true capitalism anymore. We have cooked markets that people take chances in to try and make some easy money. But it's sort of like playing with a Viper. Eventually, you are going to get it no matter how smart you may think you are. Full trust, is fool trust.
<< <i>
<< <i>Compare and contrast with other reports you may have heard.
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/ >>
But demand from Europe and the US grew. And the central banks continue to be strong buyers of gold. So what are you trying to accomplish with this thread? >>
Just being fair and balanced Stan.
Just think, if everyone isn't buyer then those that aren't are potential future buyers. Right?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Back on point. People buy gold. People sell gold. Demand will go up and down depending on fiat money and world conditions.
<< <i>Coho- My name is Jimmy.
Back on point. People buy gold. People sell gold. Demand will go up and down depending on fiat money and world conditions. >>
Thank you Captain Obvious. Great point you make there. Boiled the whole forum right down to one simple paragraph.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>Coho- My name is Jimmy.
Back on point. People buy gold. People sell gold. Demand will go up and down depending on fiat money and world conditions. >>
Thank you Captain Obvious. Great point you make there. Boiled the whole forum right down to one simple paragraph.
Listen, genius. I didn't start this pointless thread. I'm just answering the guy that did. Take it up with him.
They Will Be Back! (so every religion on the planet tells us)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Did you know that when the aliens landed on this planet a couple hundred thousand years ago, they altered the genes in the monkeys to make them more curious, better able to utilize language, and while they were at it, implanted an innate genetic desire to transform the surface of the planet into useful forms (tame it) as well as mine and refine gold and store it in easy (for them) to access stone buildings?
They Will Be Back! (so every religion on the planet tells us) >>
Really? I hope you bought your ticket so you don't miss your chance to head back out with them next time they land.
If not, set me down anywhere on Earth with this and I'll make a life for myself there.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>Compare and contrast with other reports you may have heard.
http://www.mining.com/global-gold-demand-hits-six-year-low-as-china-india-buy-less/ >>
But demand from Europe and the US grew. And the central banks continue to be strong buyers of gold. So what are you trying to accomplish with this thread? >>
Source please.
That said, what's wrong with WGC data? For one, during the years of central bank gold sales (1995-2008) they counted that as available extra supply. Yet when central banks became net buyers in 2009 they didn't include that at a net "demand." It took them years to incorporate honesty in that reporting. Is seems to be included now. And they also cannot gauge the demand through Beijing and Shanghai since China only reports imports through Hong Kong. There's a lot being missed on gold demand in China and India. Gold imports and exports to India were messed up for quite some time when they had tight restrictions in place (tax restrictions, sales limits, etc.). Illegal and black market gold was leaking badly in both directions....and still is.
Global gold demand dropped 12% in the second quarter of the year hitting a six-year low of 914.9 tonnes, data from the World Gold Council shows.
Don't believe everything you read from these guys. They are as crooked as the best of them. They tend to write negatively about gold as often as they can. A strange occurrence for something called the "World Gold Council." They are shills for the IMF, big banks, etc. But I'm not surprised demand would be down coming off the March $1300+ gold highs. It's taken a few months to drop prices back to their former lows....where demand will no doubt show a pick up in the 3rd quarter.
We can debate the WGC's figures all day long. But in reality, those figures are basically worthless in the gold market. Gold demand and supply is primarily dependent on the 165,000 tonnes that is available for sale. The 3,000 tonnes or so coming out of the ground each year is almost a non-factor....as is recycled gold. And likewise, the demand numbers the WGC throws around, are pretty useless too when it comes to determining the price of gold. Silver is another story though. It's the flip side of gold. Notice the WGC didn't mention anything about the 190% increase in Indian silver demand in March-April. There is no World Silver Council to petition.
China is probably holding back official gold reserves for that time when they are granted SDR currency status. When they have all the gold they need to compete better, and when the need arises, they will come clean on their gold inventories....and offer to sell it for arbitrage to CB's that need it. To those countries that don't have the stated tonnes of gold in their "official" inventories, they won't have the necessary gold to arbitrage in a currency crisis. They will have to offer up corporations, natural resources, real estate, and other tangible wealth....not paper.
Juan Carlos Fartigas, director of investment research at WGC, told MINING.com is worth noting the report released Thursday covers the period from March to June 2015, which means it precedes more recent activity in July and August. When considering the last two months, however, the WGC sees a more encouraging picture emerging on the horizon, Artigas added.
Can you say shill? And talk about an "oxymoron"....."director of investment research" for the WGC??? Are you kidding me? Does anyone really believe anything these guys pontificate about? I'd believe JPM or GS before WGC.
Just do some google searches on the "bad" of WGC and GFMS and see what others have to say. Here's one from Eric Sprott showing them what they're doing wrong in estimating world demand. There are many other critics out there that basically agree. I see the letters WGC and I instantly think SHILL. WGC is not worldly, not gold friendly, and not a council. They are basically an extension of the gold cartel (ie BIS, IMF, CB's, bullion banks, specific large miners who play for the banks). WGC is a "spokesperson" for the connected gold industry. The number crunching is now done by Reuters GFMS. And a change I just noticed is that if you want a report from them you have to supply your name and email for them to send it. You can no longer just read it on their website. Another layer of non-transparency. Gotta love it. WGC was vehemently against position limits for CFTC gold futures position limits, against rule changes to tighten what "deliverable gold" means (ie allow paper settlements where possible), and for delaying as long as possible any position limits/record keeping requirements for bona-fide hedgers (ie banks....lol). This PMs forums is more pro-gold than the WGC is....and that's saying a lot in the current environment....lol. And the true 800 lb gorilla, otc gold and silver derivatives. These don't even show up in any form in the WGC demand/supply equation. US Silver derivatives are currently at around $76 BILL notional (6 years of annual production). The gold derivatives are no longer observable as they are now buried in the Tier 1 currency reserves along with currencies. One would think that $100-$500 BILL in gold derivatives might just have something to do with supply and demand (1-5 yrs of world production)....lol.
Sprotts open letter to the WGC. Yeah, he's no saint, but some of his criticisms are valid.
Another source who says China and Russia don't let gold leave the country. Hmm.
In looking at the article's China jewelry demand I see a 2nd QTR that is right smack in the middle of the past past 4 - 2nd quarters. Higher than 2 of them, lower than 2. If you remove the massive "one-off" 2nd qtr 2103 spike (due to the April-June gold smash from $1600 to $1321), you'd say the recent 2nd QTR was higher than normal. I guess it's all in the presentation.
2nd QTR data typically ranges from 140-225 tonnes of demand. 175 tonnes this past quarter was right in there. Another question. Is jewelry demand a good proxy for overall investment demand? The drop in recycled gold of 251 tonnes is debatable. Sprott makes the point that recyclable gold in China and Russia is irrelevant as little of it leaves the country. How much of that 251 tonnes was recycled in Russia and China?
Roadrunner, I do believe the #1 demand source is jewelry in every country. Buying bullion coins is mostly a developed world concept, which is still dwarfed by jewelry.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Is that "one", you?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
No one. Straw men statements you set up yourself are easy to knock down. No one said worthless, no one said "no one is buying", no one said anything of the sort.
The price of gold speaks for itself.
"worth less" is not the same as "worthless" and "lower demand" is not the same as "no demand"
Obviously.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
50.33% pure, as a matter of record. About 7 ounces turned into about 3.5 ounces .9999 maybe , or thereabouts. And it will be put into blocks for "industrial" use. Not coinage, for sure.
One customer even asked if it was legal to melt JM or Credit Suisse bars. I told him not to fret. Sell it to his customer and let it get to work in the market. Easy as that.
It's just a commodity. And people keep buying or selling it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website. >>
Says who? You?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website. >>
Says who? You?
Then prove it is.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website. >>
Says who? You?
Then prove it is.
You can't prove a negative. It's like me asking you to prove to us you don't beat women.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website. >>
Says who? You?
Then prove it is.
You can't prove a negative. It's like me asking you to prove to us you don't beat women. >>
So now you understand a little about conspiracies. Good for you. You're showing promise.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China buys another 19 tons of gold in July
that would be another 610,000 ounces of the worthless metal.
Clicking on the link to the PBOC in that blog looks fishy. It just shows a simple table. Usually the internet address leads to more information on the "official" report. But this was an address created only for that table. Something not right. >>
It's only fishy because it goes against your mindset. >>
No, it's not a legit website. >>
Says who? You?
Then prove it is.
You can't prove a negative. It's like me asking you to prove to us you don't beat women. >>
So now you understand a little about conspiracies. Good for you. You're showing promise. >>
What I don't understand is how someone can make every excuse as to why the evidence is wrong. Until you can distant yourself from being a defense attorney for the market manipulation, you aren't showing any promise. But other posters have already told you that and have even made fun of your "you were warned" saying posted in your sig.
seems to me, if you really know, then you should be making millions a month...
Instead of being concerned with market manipulation and just talking about it any not making a crapload of money...
Or on the flipside, talking MM because one lost a crapload of money and it's a great excuse...which is even money of course...
You and your ilk present "information"--which in most cases is ill-construed opinion--as fact and expect us to believe it.
So now we get to the point of proving a negative. Prove to me that that link comes directly from the PBOC website and I'll listen. I've already outlined my reason to believe it false, so now make your case.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Lol. People make fun of me all the time. Thing is, I'm the one who is laughing.
You and your ilk present "information"--which in most cases is ill-construed opinion--as fact and expect us to believe it.
So now we get to the point of proving a negative. Prove to me that that link comes directly from the PBOC website and I'll listen. I've already outlined my reason to believe it false, so now make your case. >>
But it's on the internet....and the internet doesn't lie
<< <i>Lol. People make fun of me all the time. Thing is, I'm the one who is laughing. >>
The monkey in the cage at the zoo is laughing too.
<< <i>
<< <i>Lol. People make fun of me all the time. Thing is, I'm the one who is laughing.
You and your ilk present "information"--which in most cases is ill-construed opinion--as fact and expect us to believe it.
So now we get to the point of proving a negative. Prove to me that that link comes directly from the PBOC website and I'll listen. I've already outlined my reason to believe it false, so now make your case. >>
But it's on the internet....and the internet doesn't lie
Oh, the internet is full of lies. But it goes both ways.
<< <i>
<< <i>Lol. People make fun of me all the time. Thing is, I'm the one who is laughing. >>
The monkey in the cage at the zoo is laughing too. >>
Yet it is in the cage.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Lol. People make fun of me all the time. Thing is, I'm the one who is laughing. >>
The monkey in the cage at the zoo is laughing too. >>
Yet it is in the cage. >>
He sure is. Think about it for a second.
Despite the lack of being labeled as the C word.....it's hard to imagine anything but that when 6-10 of the biggest banks are involved. Let's just all be friends and call it typical "market dynamics." What's a few rogue HFT's between friends? Fire that rogue trader or algo programmers who are no doubt acting alone and contrary to upper management's orders.... and restore our faith in the integrity of the TBTJ banks.
10 banks being investigated on precious metals rigging
This latest PM investigation will probably take years. But I suspect the banks will get gigged, fined 1% of their profits, and then move along. Justice wins. The people are safe once again. If the boyz are rigging other markets, why wouldn't they rig precious metals? I would if I were in their shoes and working for Team Bankster (means, motive, opportunity, and big cash bonuses). I would be making MILLIONs per month if only the boyz would email me daily on their next moves. Sorry to say, I'm not getting those notices. Without any other proof, we can only say these guys have been caught rigging several of the world's most important markets. And what are the $4 TRILL in otc derivatives that JPM has put down in the first quarter? It's quacking like a duck, walking like a duck, and looking like a duck. Now if they get cited for rigging PMs....then it's flying like a duck too. On face value, it sure does stink whether you use the M word, R word, or C word.
DOJ / WSJ
Bloomberg on metal rigging probe - HSBC cooperating as they are already under a 5 yr cloud for money laundering
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The facts are, that the anti-conspiracy bugs can't prove there aren't conspiracies. And the big banks are never indicted or convicted of conspiracy or RICO type charges. All we can go on is that 6 of the world's biggest banks have been cited and fined $BILLIONS by regulators for rigging currencies and interest rates, including Libor. Fines were also levied for rigging real estate markets prior to the 2008 crash. Now 10 banks are being investigated by the Dept of Justice for rigging gold, silver, plat, and palladium markets. The horses have already left the barn. Any fines coming out of this will be water under the bridge. The deeds are done. By agreeing to pay fines (and not admit to purposeful wrong-doing) the banks will avoid the dreaded "C" word and carry on.
Despite the lack of being labeled as the C word.....it's hard to imagine anything but that when 6-10 of the biggest banks are involved. Let's just all be friends and call it typical "market dynamics." What's a few rogue HFT's between friends? Fire that rogue trader or algo programmers who are no doubt acting alone and contrary to upper management's orders.... and restore our faith in the integrity of the TBTJ banks.
10 banks being investigated on precious metals rigging
This latest PM investigation will probably take years. But I suspect the banks will get gigged, fined 1% of their profits, and then move along. Justice wins. The people are safe once again. If the boyz are rigging other markets, why wouldn't they rig precious metals? I would if I were in their shoes and working for Team Bankster (means, motive, opportunity, and big cash bonuses). I would be making MILLIONs per month if only the boyz would email me daily on their next moves. Sorry to say, I'm not getting those notices. Without any other proof, we can only say these guys have been caught rigging several of the world's most important markets. And what are the $4 TRILL in otc derivatives that JPM has put down in the first quarter? It's quacking like a duck, walking like a duck, and looking like a duck. Now if they get cited for rigging PMs....then it's flying like a duck too. On face value, it sure does stink whether you use the M word, R word, or C word.
DOJ / WSJ
Bloomberg on metal rigging probe - HSBC cooperating as they are already under a 5 yr cloud for money laundering >>
I can agree with most if not all of this based on the evidence that has came out. I wonder how some posters on here act like the rigging isn't just as probable in all markets. Do they really think thieves and crooks won't cross in to all financial venues if given the opportunity?
<< <i>I wonder how some posters on here act like the rigging isn't just as probable in all markets. Do they really think thieves and crooks won't cross in to all financial venues if given the opportunity? >>
Some are blinded by their own bias. Others accept the truth but enjoy being sarcastic fools.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The "house odds advantage" can run from 0.5% over the long run for a really good blackjack player who counts a deck or two, to 7.5% for craps players who bet the pass line and play the odds, on up to worse odds on roulette, fancy games like Caribbean stud and 3 card poker and pai gow and the like, the worse is probably that spinning wheel of dollar bills.
Doesn't stop some guys from having a good run in the short term and beating the odds.
The small trick is to cash out while you're up. The big trick is not to fool yourself that you're smarter than the oddsmakers over the long run
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If you don't know or like the rules of the game, then don't play. And certainly don't cry foul then persuade others to play.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
If you don't know or like the rules of the game, then don't play. And certainly don't cry foul then persuade others to play.
I think you know perfectly well why some cry foul and still remain in the game. If you really don't know, let me offer you this. I have some trust and confidence in free markets. I don't believe that's what we now have, but I believe that free markets will have their day when the manipulators lose control. If and when that happens, I don't think it will be a good situation. That being the case, I'm doing the best I can to stay on top of whatever I and those around me need now, and in the future.
Given the debt load plus the unfunded liabilities for entitlements that have been promised "to everyone", I see every reason to avoid the entire financial system and to minimize tax exposure going forward. The advantage that metals have is that they have no counterparty risk and they can be kept off the radar if the system becomes too draconian. Metals have no earnings to report and no profits to report until they are eventually sold.
In threads such as these, I've never seen it mentioned, but.....unlike stocks, physical precious metals holdings don't have a payroll, employment taxes, employee healthcare costs, stock dividends or executive bonuses that must be supported by continuing operations.
If the brokerage house, clearing house, or even the company itself disappears, the stock goes to zero. Metals don't go to zero.
I knew it would happen.
I also understand that the biggest "fundamental" the PM bulls like to cite is the US Govt debt level. So this measure has risen 3 fold since 2000 and gold is up 4 fold. So why the thought that gold should be higher than it is and why cite some conspiracy or manipulation justify these thoughts? Just as you consider gold should not be at 1100, perhaps it should not have been at 1900.
While gold does not have concerns such as payrolls, bonuses and dividends, it also does not develop cures for disease, increase productivity or foster innovation.
If all the companies cease operations and go to zero, do you think gold will retain it's value. The stock market has never gone to zero either.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
If the brokerage house, clearing house, or even the company itself disappears, the stock goes to zero. Metals don't go to zero.
Interesting observation, particularly in light of your first comment when I mentioned buying another house.. the taxes "in perpetuity".
Well, sure. Hopefully, expectedly, the value of the utility of the use of the house (versus spending on hotel rooms) plus the seasonal rental income, will more than offset the taxes and other expenses.
My Dad's first comment was about "the risk of loss" due to a tree falling on it, or the forest catching fire and burning it down, or the river flooding it, or vandals looting it, or an earthquake burying it, or hot lava immolating it, or torrential rains and high winds tearing the roof off, or snow accumulation collapsing the roof, or.. well you get the idea.
And I say to both, and to the risks of stocks, "it's worth it" because all those employees and plant and equipment and QC and distribution organizations, etc.. Create Value
Needless to say, I personally am risk tolerant if I have the information and can calculate probabilities.
And I fully understand those who have lower tolerance for risk of loss and "trouble" with their assets, and want to keep it simple, keep it safe.
It's what makes markets, greed and fear. Carpe diem.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
China and India might be buying more gold. China is the biggest ponzi scheme in the history of the world and India might as well be the planet Mars .
I have a friend who is assistant manager at a hotel that is part of a chain run by Indians. The stories they tell him about their homeland are crazy.
Go look on the internet to see what life is like in India .
They buy gold in India before they buy toilet paper , they have things exactly backwards. They are the ultimate contrarians , watch what they do then do the opposite.