Gold CAC Re-Grade Results!

Proofmorgan · June 30, 2015 12:27PM

I purchased a 1943 S Mercury Dime 1-2 weeks ago on GC. It was an Old NGC holder MS67 Gold CAC. I paid MS68 money for it. Sent it in to PCGS to try for the MS68 Crossover. I got the results back tonight.....MS67.

Do I cut the losses and send it to CAC with the old label for a re-sticker or to I send it back to PCGS for reconsideration when it comes back in hopes for a 67+ or 68 and then re-sticker?

Disappointed, but not totally surprised.

steveben · June 30, 2015 12:30PM

it's a shame you lost the old holder. i would get the sticker back, if you can.

keyman64 · June 30, 2015 12:35PM

Glad you weren't surprised. I have seen a lot of MS68 NGC Mercs that I do not think would cross. If I were you,
try to get the sticker again. If you like the coin keep it. If you ONLY like the coin if it were in the PCGS 68 holder then
sell it and play the waiting game to find the right example for you. Good luck!

jcping · June 30, 2015 12:35PM

What was the service you used? Cracked out and sent in raw, or cross-over?
If Xover, do you expect PCGS buys CAC's gold bean philosophy?

Unknown · June 30, 2015 12:37PM

This content has been removed.

Proofmorgan · June 30, 2015 12:39PM

If it was an OGH or Rattler I would have left it alone. I don't think the NGC holder holds as much of a markup. I sent it to PCGS for a crossover. I like the coin, but the idea was to get a 68 for a registry set and keep it. I would need to get the sticker back or its a 75% loss on investment. You would assume that a gold CAC would bump you up to the next grade or even a plus. I've done it on green beans, but in PCGS holders for reconsideration. Maybe only because it was a crossover?

blu62vette · June 30, 2015 12:44PM

Now that it is a PC holder I would try a regrade later on. Getting an upgrade on a crossover is not a likely situation. I would not be disappointed, I would consider it partly there and yes, I just did these steps on a real good PL.

keyman64 · June 30, 2015 12:45PM

It could be BECAUSE of the crossover. I have been told by an important person at PCGS that they cannot see everything in the holder and luster cannot be judged as well etc. and because of the crossover at a minimum grade thing they actually grade it while it is in the other holder...they have to! So, yes, you could try the reconsideration or regrade thing on your next package to them. It wouldn't hurt that much if sending in with a bunch of other stuff.

BustHalfBrian · June 30, 2015 12:47PM

<< That was a big risk to take. Get it restickered and cut your losses. >>

I agree, you have some serious guts. I don't think I'd have ever in my right mind made the same decision, especially if I paid full MS68 money.

Did you ever consider NGC, or is this the type of coin that needs to be in a PCGS holder to bring appropriate money? I was thinking NGC might be more forgiving.

Kyle · June 30, 2015 12:53PM

<< I agree, you have some serious guts. I don't think I'd have ever in my right mind made the same decision, especially if I paid full MS68 money.
>>

+1

Barndog · June 30, 2015 12:53PM

<< It could be BECAUSE of the crossover. I have been told by an important person at PCGS that they cannot see everything in the holder and luster cannot be judged as well etc. and because of the crossover at a minimum grade thing they actually grade it while it is in the other holder...they have to! So, yes, you could try the reconsideration or regrade thing on your next package to them. It wouldn't hurt that much if sending in with a bunch of other stuff. >>

my limited experience tells me that the smaller the coin, the lower the light transmission to the coin in the older holders and therefore, the lower likelihood of cross, let alone upgrade.

Proofmorgan · June 30, 2015 12:53PM

It ultimately needed to end up in a PCGS holder. So going NGC to PCGS to CAC seemed like a more costly way to get where I needed to be. But, I figured gold cac as a lock 68....I mean the market has dictated such and even more for certain coins. I won't sell off just yet as I've been down this road once on a raw grade. On a 1908 Indian $2.5 I received a MS64 and took the profit and ran. Found out the next guy sent it in for a reconsideration and received a 65 and a green bean later on. Tripled in value when it left my hands.

BG · June 30, 2015 1:05PM

I've played the game in the past.

You win some and lose some. I hope for more win's than loses.

Trying to decide what to do with this piece:

NGC Old Fattie Holder w/Gold CAC

mercurydimeguy · June 30, 2015 1:11PM

I wouldn't be surprise if it came back with a green bean this time, seen it happen.

marmac · June 30, 2015 1:13PM

Sorry it did not workout for you but I would think you could still obtain the gold bean back.
Not every coin comes back the grade it is supposed to.

Kove · June 30, 2015 1:14PM

<< I wouldn't be surprise if it came back with a green bean this time, seen it happen. >>

Yep, especially now that's it's in a brand new holder. IMHO CAC is a little looser with gold stickers on older holders.

CoinJunkie · June 30, 2015 1:16PM

<< But, I figured gold cac as a lock 68....I mean the market has dictated such and even more for certain coins. >>

Why on earth would you figure that? Since when do markets (which often act irrationally in the short term) dictate what PCGS will do?

lkeigwin · June 30, 2015 1:25PM

So you tried a cross-at-grade and it worked, and now you're bummed it didn't upgrade, right?

I don't think it's a gold-lock at CAC. They don't know it wasn't cracked and tampered with before PCGS graded it. I think it will get a fresh look. Let's hope it earns another gold sticker. Then you would be ahead of the game.

Or you can try PCGS again. Not reconsideration, of course. You don't care about the holder and shouldn't pay a premium if it upgrades. Regrade is what you want. I like this approach. If it stays 67 then try CAC with documentation about their earlier assessment and hope they go along with it again.
Lance.

Bochiman · June 30, 2015 1:30PM

I see a lot of talk about the holder. About the grade on the holder. About the sticker.
I haven't seen the coin in hand, but I didn't see where there is talk about the coin itself. Ownership may add a point, but, really, does it LOOK like a MS68 when compared to others?

Sounds like a financially risky thing was done. "cut losses", "75% loss on INVESTMENT".

When playing with INVESTMENTS, it can get dicey on the financial side.

VanHalen · June 30, 2015 1:31PM

Don't touch the Iowa Commem.

PCGS has only graded 3 '43-S Mercs MS68. As a PCGS 68 it would likely bring over a grand these days as a Top Pop. NGC has 6 in 68 and 1 in 68+ so your odds were better going that route. Kind of amazing CAC Gold stickers a 67 when 68 is Top Pop and 10 exist total between PCGS & NGC. Anyway, try to get your gold sticker back and remember you actually paid about half what a PCGS 68 would cost today.

Wabbit2313 · June 30, 2015 1:48PM

Here is the way I would play this out. I hope you took a picture of the coin in the slab with the gold CAC?

-Send it back to CAC and put a picture in with it and a note to John explaining what happened.
-It will most likely gold CAC again since no one touched the coin except PCGS.
-Send that coin back to PCGS reconsideration for 1 full point upgrade.

As Lance said, PCGS gold CAC coin is worth 68 or 68+ money anyway. (If it does not upgrade)

mozin · June 30, 2015 2:04PM

<< So you tried a cross-at-grade and it worked, and now you're bummed it didn't upgrade, right?

I don't think it's a gold-lock at CAC. They don't know it wasn't cracked and tampered with before PCGS graded it. I think it will get a fresh look. Let's hope it earns another gold sticker. Then you would be ahead of the game.

Or you can try PCGS again. Not reconsideration, of course. You don't care about the holder and shouldn't pay a premium if it upgrades. Regrade is what you want. I like this approach. If it stays 67 then try CAC with documentation about their earlier assessment and hope they go along with it again.
Lance. >>

My thoughts exactly.

Boosibri · June 30, 2015 2:09PM

Reconsideration makes no sense for a recently graded PCGS coin, send it in for regrading if you disagree
I don't think CAC would re-gold bean the coin. A good part of the value of the coin was in the nostalgia of the old fatty and now freshly graded I wouldn't expect CAC to pay next level money with the new facts you will present to them (i.e. the coin did not upgrade).

Wabbit2313 · June 30, 2015 2:18PM

<< Reconsideration makes no sense for a recently graded PCGS coin, send it in for regrading if you disagree
I don't think CAC would re-gold bean the coin. A good part of the value of the coin was in the nostalgia of the old fatty and now freshly graded I wouldn't expect CAC to pay next level money with the new facts you will present to them (i.e. the coin did not upgrade). >>

Everything you say here has no basis in fact at all. The coin is the same coin and the PCGS holder makes it more valuable, not less. The guys best chance at getting the value back in this coin is to get that gold CAC sticker back on it. Then if he has to have it in a 68 holder, reconsider it. At least the gold CAC sticker stays this time if it doesn't go up. If it does go up, who cares about the 1% fee?

Or, just keep throwing your money away and send it back in for endless regrades. What do I care.

lasvegasteddy · June 30, 2015 2:27PM

i take it this coin really cried to ya...MS68 was within it's realm
any chance of high resolution images?

as this example must glow

that's a lofty grade to do more then just hope for but persue it
i love that drive

Boosibri · June 30, 2015 2:31PM

<< 

<< Reconsideration makes no sense for a recently graded PCGS coin, send it in for regrading if you disagree
I don't think CAC would re-gold bean the coin. A good part of the value of the coin was in the nostalgia of the old fatty and now freshly graded I wouldn't expect CAC to pay next level money with the new facts you will present to them (i.e. the coin did not upgrade). >>

Everything you say here has no basis in fact at all. The coin is the same coin and the PCGS holder makes it more valuable, not less. The guys best chance at getting the value back in this coin is to get that gold CAC sticker back on it. Then if he has to have it in a 68 holder, reconsider it. At least the gold CAC sticker stays this time if it doesn't go up. If it does go up, who cares about the 1% fee?

Or, just keep throwing your money away and send it back in for endless regrades. What do I care. >>

Getting a gold bean would be great but if you were CAC, what would you do? From CAC's perspective, marketing an old fatty with their own gold sticker as a 68 is a lot easier than a newly graded PCGS holder with a gold sticker. The burden of proof is now much higher due to the new holder. I have made this work once with a new PCGS holder, CAC gold stickered it but the coin is probably the most eye appealing of the date in existence, of which only about 50 exist in all grades so that might have something to do with it.

If he does send to CAC and gets the gold bean then I agree with you.

TopographicOceans · June 30, 2015 2:32PM

Paying 68 money for an NGG 67 with a gold bean is far from a certainty it will wind up in a PCGS 68 slab.

Remember John Albanese describes a gold sticker as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.” - but not a ticket for an automatic upgrade at another service.

Since you paid 68 money for a 67 and you need/want a PCGS 68 than that's what you should buy IMHO.

Proofmorgan · June 30, 2015 8:51PM

oih82w8 · June 30, 2015 9:56PM

<< Here is the way I would play this out. I hope you took a picture of the coin in the slab with the gold CAC?

-Send it back to CAC and put a picture in with it and a note to John explaining what happened.
-It will most likely gold CAC again since no one touched the coin except PCGS.
-Send that coin back to PCGS reconsideration for 1 full point upgrade.

As Lance said, PCGS gold CAC coin is worth 68 or 68+ money anyway. (If it does not upgrade) >>

This is the lady (I forgot her name) from CAC informed me when I asked about re-stickering reholdered coins.

s4ny · June 30, 2015 10:03PM

It was NGC MS67 with gold CAC. Its value was maxed out at that point.

It is now PCGS MS67. Might or might not get a green sticker. 30% chance.

Gold sticker very unlikely. Maybe 2% chance.

When was the last time a coin just graded by PCGS got a gold sticker?
Ever?

Smittys · June 30, 2015 10:16PM

Maybe it didn't deserve a gold sticker. Added value due to a sticker lost when regraded.
Maybe 67 is correct.
You bought a sticker, which is a great example of buy the coin not the plastic or Sticker.

steveben · July 1, 2015 1:24AM

i like the coin, but it should have been left in the ngc fatty. i understand why you did what you did...but i think you might have killed the value of the coin. i hope you are able to get the gold sticker back. good luck.

roadrunner · July 1, 2015 2:25AM

Gold cac only suggests that one dealer is willing to make an offer at "next grade money" for that coin....whatever that means. In this case it could be NGC MS68 money which is FAR different than PCGS MS68 money. And just because CAC loved it one day in the past....doesn't mean that with a fresh perspective on another day would still the see the coin as +1 point upgrade.

If that's not a smudge on the holder of the rev of the 43-s then that coin is quite weakly struck in rev centers to earn a 68 grade.

I would have been happy with the NGC gold CAC and left it alone. PCGS crosses very little in pre-1950 coinage when it comes to MS67 and higher holders.

CoinJunkie · July 1, 2015 2:25AM

Based on years of experience, NGC grades Mercs about half a point looser than PCGS. Given that,
I wouldn't spend any further money trying to get an upgrade with our hosts. Just MHO, of course.

SethChandler · July 1, 2015 2:26AM

Let us know if you get the gold sticker back. I am sure the coin will be re-examined.

jcping · July 1, 2015 2:29AM

Based on the photo (many lines on obverse field and some are on reverse field), I will do my best to get the gold bean back after I try re-grade one to two times. I would like to give graders opportunities to view the coin without plastic.

I like this coin and I believe its luster should be better than what photo shows.

georgiacop50 · July 1, 2015 2:51AM

<< It could be BECAUSE of the crossover. I have been told by an important person at PCGS that they cannot see everything in the holder and luster cannot be judged as well etc. and because of the crossover at a minimum grade thing they actually grade it while it is in the other holder...they have to! So, yes, you could try the reconsideration or regrade thing on your next package to them. It wouldn't hurt that much if sending in with a bunch of other stuff. >>

This is only partially correct. The first sentence is not logical.

Because once the coin was committed by PCGS to cross, it would be removed from the NGC slab and sent thru grading process as a raw coin. In other words once they decided it was at LEAST ms67 it was removed from the holder and considered for a higher grade whilst outside the NGC plastique.

In effect, a XO gets graded twice. Once in the holder to see if it will XO at current grade. Then a second look, raw, to see if it will upgrade.

mercurydimeguy · July 1, 2015 3:23AM

I will add that I've had green bean NGC coins not cross 4x to PCGS but would only cross at one grade lower. Sending it back to CAC did not get me a Gold CAC sticker but rather another green sticker at a point lower grade. One coin I'm now upside down about $1.8k ... that's what happens when you buy coins with CAC stickers sight unseen.

One day CAC looks at a coin and decides to green sticker, another day, same coin gold sticker, another day, not sticker...they are just another grading service (in simple terms). It's fools folly, I've now learned, to think you can buy CAC coins sight unseen and think you are getting top coins. I just posted a Merc thread recently...go look at that CAC coin, covered with dip residue, I bought sight unseen from GC auction.

I've also had coins in VF35 holders that didn't sticker, later upgraded to XF40 and stickered at the higher grade.

I'm by no means devaluing the services offered by any TPG, including CAC, I am a loyal client to all

I'll I'm saying is buy the coin, not the holder nor the sticker...you still need to develop a good eye for quality ...

s4ny · July 1, 2015 3:39AM

This just cements the PCGS reputation of being tougher than NGC. The coin was
NGC MS67 CAC gold and it crosses to PCGS MS67.

Question is would CAC be influenced when the coin comes back to them
knowing that it was CAC gold? I think yes. It improves the chances to
50-50 for CAC green. They know they loved the coin before and, knowing that,
would be inclined to love it again.

If you meet a girl and know she won a beauty contest
you are likelier to consider her beautiful yourself.

CAC gold? Would make CAC look silly.

s4ny · July 1, 2015 3:42AM

It seems a bit like game theory. NGC, PCGS and CAC.

"The study of mathematical models of conflict and cooperation between intelligent rational decision-makers."

steveben · July 1, 2015 3:54AM

<< 
If you meet a girl and know she won a beauty contest
you are likelier to consider her beautiful yourself.
>>

but if you didn't know she won a beauty contest, would you still notice her as being pretty? perhaps, if she's your type.

maybe you date her for a while and find out she's really ugly, but you didn't notice that at first!

i think all this proves is that ngc graded the coin and thought it was a 67. cac thought they liked it better than that. because of that, the coin was purchased and shown to pcgs and they agreed with ngc.

Elcontador · July 1, 2015 4:13AM

Re the pic - die polish lines on the obverse. Don't know whether the coin has amazing bluish toning, or the white balance is off on the image. Auto white balance usually is fine in sunlight, but not in shade or when using incandescent lighting. Whomever took the photo probably knows more about this than I do, but I would make an inquiry about this if the toning in the image isn't how the coin looks in hand.

SethChandler · July 1, 2015 4:22AM

To tower the grade stack, you must empower the crack!

bluelobster · July 1, 2015 4:30AM

I understand some like everything in PCGS plastic, but from a collector, value and pragmatic view, I would never try to cross a old fatty with a bean... gold or green.
Would hate to lose the holder.

roadrunner · July 1, 2015 4:42AM

<< This just cements the PCGS reputation of being tougher than NGC. The coin was
NGC MS67 CAC gold and it crosses to PCGS MS67..... >>

The only thing this cements is how difficult it is to cross classic NGC coins in high grade MS holders. For 19th century silver type that's anything MS64 and above. NGC has a cross rate that is also "tough" on PCGS coins....something around 40%. Does that also "cement" the notion that NGC is tougher than PCGS? When it comes down to comparing grading services, the only way to do it is by cracking the coins out first. At that point the 30-40% cross rates will seem silly when 55-75% of the coins receive the same grade at either service. The crossing game is an interesting side line....just don't confuse it with grading raw coins.

Proofmorgan · July 1, 2015 7:29AM

It will go out to CAC as soon as I get it back from PCGS. With the old label, picture, and a note.....how could you not gold bean it? It is the same exact coin in the same exact grade, but just a different holder. It seems like a straight up "re-sticker" to me. Otherwise you are admitting that your company is inconsistent and you are grading plastic rather than coins.

Walkerfan · July 1, 2015 7:58AM

Based on crossover success rates, especially at that lofty level, I never would have tried to cross it. I'm not at all surprised. It will be interesting to see if CAC Gold stickers it again. Good Luck!!

Cougar1978 · July 1, 2015 7:59AM

It seems like a lot of money is being spent on the sticker / holder game. Not for me.

I find it way outside my sphere of risk to pay the next grade up on a gold stickered coin. To me that seems like a big gamble, your betting the TPG will agree with some guy at CAC. I might gamble the grading fee plus about 20 bucks but that's it.

coinbuf · July 1, 2015 8:06AM

To be honest I think it was a mistake to ever mess with it, in looking at the picture I would grade it no higher than 66. The hair brads are not very well defined and the reverse strike is lacking, just my opinion grading the pic. Perhaps in hand the coin has a better strike than I see here but it would seem that the color and luster carried the coin to the next grade. Also I am not an expert at this series and it's possible that for this date/mm weak strikes are the norm and given some extra leeway in grading which could account for the higher grade than I see. As far as CAC goes they are under no obligation to resticker it green or gold once it has been cracked out of the original holder. CAC provides a good service but just like grading TPG's they do not always get it right on the first opinion. I do believe that I have read of occasions where CAC has bought stickered coins to remove those coins from the market when the coin has turned or their opinion of the coin has changed for some reason. The sticker is like a TPG grade just an opinion and subject to change.

coinkat · July 1, 2015 9:37AM

The coin looks attractive... just having a hard time with the re-submission and the fanfare associated with that. In this instance, the coin really speaks for itself and the rest of the discussion seems to be detracting from the constant that does not change- the coin itself.

Bochiman · July 1, 2015 9:52AM

<< It will go out to CAC as soon as I get it back from PCGS. With the old label, picture, and a note.....how could you not gold bean it? It is the same exact coin in the same exact grade, but just a different holder. It seems like a straight up "re-sticker" to me. Otherwise you are admitting that your company is inconsistent and you are grading plastic rather than coins. >>

Everything is an opinion. As such, there is no such "admitting your company is inconsistent" crap. People are inconsistent. Non-human entities are not.

You called it an investment. As such, do what you can to recoup but don't blame others if things don't turn out the way you think they should. There are no sure things in this world (besides death and taxes). If it is such a big deal, then be more careful of "investments". It would be like playing the stock market, watching Apple stock go up and then buying in and having it go down. Should one then complain that someone is admitting to an inconsistency within their company?

You are likely to get the gold sticker back. Even if you don't, however, I fail to see how you could HONESTLY and LOGICALLY blame cac as they didn't crack the coin out and they didn't have it in their possession the entire time. They shouldn't automatically be expected to resticker a coin the same way without inspecting said coin, just in case. Imagine the little scammies that would be attempting dirty shenanigans with them if that was how they operated...

Gold CAC Re-Grade Results!

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