Bochiman, I do not disagree with you. It would just be nice to see more consistency. Overall, I enjoy the coin, but did learn a lesson about the gold CAC and what it really means. I also agree that CAC has to do their due diligence in inspecting the coin. I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I Will feel much better if it gets the gold sticker back, just disappointed that the gold CAC didn't demonstrate the basis for its 1+ grade markup across the board as seen in the marketplace.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
<< <i>Bochiman, I do not disagree with you. It would just be nice to see more consistency. Overall, I enjoy the coin, but did learn a lesson about the gold CAC and what it really means. I also agree that CAC has to do their due diligence in inspecting the coin. I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I Will feel much better if it gets the gold sticker back, just disappointed that the gold CAC didn't demonstrate the basis for its 1+ grade markup across the board as seen in the marketplace. >>
You are looking at it as if it is 1 thing. In reality, you have the guarantees, and vision, of 2 different corporate entities (and multiple people). CAC is saying they will buy it and treat it as if it is 1 grade (min) up from the slabbed grade. PCGS has their guarantee (but no agreement to even contemplate purchase) on the slabbed grade.
PCGS is completely separate from CAC and, as such, is going to do their bit away from any sticker on the slab they see. They have to. Maybe, when they see the coin raw, they see something that IN THEIR VIEWS keeps it at the 67 level while, when viewed behind plastic, and in JA's eyes, CAC sees it as at least 1 grade above 67.
That's not even the game, that's just how it goes when you have something that is opinion related and 2 different entities looking at it through their own way of doing so.
Unless you needed it for registry purposes, why on God's green earth would you ever crack out an NGC old fatty with a gold bean? The upside is minimal (IMO) and the coin holds far more allure in its original holder with gold bean.
Is a 68 in a new PCGS holder REALLY worth that much more than a gold beaned 67 in an old holder?
I would say the same of PCGS rattlers and 2nd gen holders.
<< <i>Bochiman, I do not disagree with you. It would just be nice to see more consistency. Overall, I enjoy the coin, but did learn a lesson about the gold CAC and what it really means. I also agree that CAC has to do their due diligence in inspecting the coin. I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I Will feel much better if it gets the gold sticker back, just disappointed that the gold CAC didn't demonstrate the basis for its 1+ grade markup across the board as seen in the marketplace. >>
Gold CAC means JA would buy the coin at the next grade up, nothing more. So at the time he would pay NGC 68 money which is likely a small premium to PCGS 67 price point. I also learned lesson hard way. An NGC 67 with a green been means he would pay NGC67 prices, which might be PCGS 66 prices.
When collecting Mercs I was brutal. An NGC Merc immediately received a 1-2 grade less offer from me. NGC and PCGS grades Mercs differently.
First, I loved the coin's eye appeal and wanted it for my registry set. My 1943 mint registry set is built on eye appeal first and grade second. That said, no coin is less than MS67. (I do hate the top set makers who play the numbers game and their coins may not be very appealing. They should award for nicest looking set.)
I myself do not personally value the Old NGC holders and have everything PCGS. I do preserve rattlers and OGH coins. I must admit I sent this in banking on 1 of 2 things: it goes 68 or crosses and gets the gold bean back. Plan B is up next...I hope it works out.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
I spent a long time building a No Bands high grade (67 and 68 for the most part) Merc set about 10 years ago. My take is that to get a 68, you would have to crack it and send it in raw. NGC is about a point higher IMHO at the high end of the grading spectrum compared to PCGS. Any NGC 68 I typically figured to make 67 in PCGS. That held particularly true in the more common dates like the one in this thread. A gold bean is NOT a pass to a higher grade from NGC to PCGS IMHO.
All that said, it is a nice coin and I would have it in my collection and not worry about the grade. Chasing 68s can be expensive in this series compared to common 67s. The little ladies are a beautiful coin!!
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
The OP might get the gold sticker back on the new PCGS slab but, we're talking about a coin that's worth a grand (as a PCGS 68) so this is small potatoes and JA might buy it for what the OP has in it and be done with it. That said, a newly slabbed PCGS 67 is going to viewed differently than a NGC fatty 67. To think otherwise is ludicrous. PCGS just saw the coin in the raw and said "67". CAC viewed it through 20+ year old plastic and thought it looked better than 67 but now know PCGS disagreed. So....I'd view it as a green bean in PCGS MS67.
JA is a frigging genius. Hes got the entire PCGS chat room not discussing numismatics but what HE thinks of a coin. Not PCGS, not NGC. Him. Awesome. Collectors are killing themselves over the value of 200 possible combinations of the same grade in a NGC fatty, regular old NGC, old PCGS, new PCGS, rattler, CAC green, CAC Gold, ex CAC gold with a note - the combinations are endless, but it's ultimately about what HE thinks. Genius.
The best part that if he really likes a coin that he stickers he calls you to try to buy it. Cherry picking the cherries. Smartest guy in the biz.
<< <i>JA is a frigging genius. Hes got the entire PCGS chat room not discussing numismatics but what HE thinks of a coin. Not PCGS, not NGC. Him. Awesome. Collectors are killing themselves over the value of 200 possible combinations of the same grade in a NGC fatty, regular old NGC, old PCGS, new PCGS, rattler, CAC green, CAC Gold, ex CAC gold with a note - the combinations are endless, but it's ultimately about what HE thinks. Genius. >>
Actually it's pretty sad if your really think about how brainwashed some collectors have become
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
I'll give a few opinions. The first is that I would venture to guess that this Merc was untoned when submitted to NGC all those years ago. I have seen many, many blue toned silver coins in old fatty NGC holders and many of those coins were dimes. My suspicion has always been that they toned from the sulfur content of the paper. Additionally, the grade opinion of PCGS as MS67 is a single data point that may or may not change upon resubmission, regrade or reconsideration. If and when PCGS calls it MS68 then its old life as a PCGS MS67 will disappear into the ether save for old threads about the coin and/or related sales images. At that point the coin will morph from something along the lines of "a CAC gold sticker does not mean a one-point grade increase" toward something like "this coin is evidence that a CAC gold sticker means a one-point grade increase". Lastly, if CAC were to refuse to grant the gold sticker upon resubmission it could very well be simply because they thought it was boinked in the interim; that it was a "liner" gold sticker to begin with; or that they had no problem with the blue color while in the NGC fatty, but are suspicious of its stability in the new PCGS holder.
<< <i>The first is that I would venture to guess that this Merc was untoned when submitted to NGC all those years ago. I have seen many, many blue toned silver coins in old fatty NGC holders and many of those coins were dimes. My suspicion has always been that they toned from the sulfur content of the paper. >>
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>...Because once the coin was committed by PCGS to cross, it would be removed from the NGC slab and sent thru grading process as a raw coin. In other words once they decided it was at LEAST ms67 it was removed from the holder and considered for a higher grade whilst outside the NGC plastique. >>
I am not sure that is correct. I have asked many times and never gotten an authoritative answer.
I believe that once the graders settle on a grade for the cross, the coin is sent for cracking and slabbing, and not back to the graders to take another look now that it's raw to see if it might deserve better. From a workflow and efficiency standpoint it doesn't make sense. And we know PCGS cares very much about speed and efficiency.
This would also explain why often a recently crossed coin, when regraded, will upgrade (in my experience). I generally will accept "any" grade for a cross just to get it in PCGS plastic. When I think it's too low I have it regraded (usually with success). Lance.
Comments
<< <i>Bochiman, I do not disagree with you. It would just be nice to see more consistency. Overall, I enjoy the coin, but did learn a lesson about the gold CAC and what it really means. I also agree that CAC has to do their due diligence in inspecting the coin. I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I Will feel much better if it gets the gold sticker back, just disappointed that the gold CAC didn't demonstrate the basis for its 1+ grade markup across the board as seen in the marketplace. >>
You are looking at it as if it is 1 thing. In reality, you have the guarantees, and vision, of 2 different corporate entities (and multiple people). CAC is saying they will buy it and treat it as if it is 1 grade (min) up from the slabbed grade. PCGS has their guarantee (but no agreement to even contemplate purchase) on the slabbed grade.
PCGS is completely separate from CAC and, as such, is going to do their bit away from any sticker on the slab they see. They have to. Maybe, when they see the coin raw, they see something that IN THEIR VIEWS keeps it at the 67 level while, when viewed behind plastic, and in JA's eyes, CAC sees it as at least 1 grade above 67.
That's not even the game, that's just how it goes when you have something that is opinion related and 2 different entities looking at it through their own way of doing so.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Is a 68 in a new PCGS holder REALLY worth that much more than a gold beaned 67 in an old holder?
I would say the same of PCGS rattlers and 2nd gen holders.
Playing with fire.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>Bochiman, I do not disagree with you. It would just be nice to see more consistency. Overall, I enjoy the coin, but did learn a lesson about the gold CAC and what it really means. I also agree that CAC has to do their due diligence in inspecting the coin. I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I Will feel much better if it gets the gold sticker back, just disappointed that the gold CAC didn't demonstrate the basis for its 1+ grade markup across the board as seen in the marketplace. >>
Gold CAC means JA would buy the coin at the next grade up, nothing more. So at the time he would pay NGC 68 money which is likely a small premium to PCGS 67 price point. I also learned lesson hard way. An NGC 67 with a green been means he would pay NGC67 prices, which might be PCGS 66 prices.
When collecting Mercs I was brutal. An NGC Merc immediately received a 1-2 grade less offer from me. NGC and PCGS grades Mercs differently.
First, I loved the coin's eye appeal and wanted it for my registry set. My 1943 mint registry set is built on eye appeal first and grade second. That said, no coin is less than MS67. (I do hate the top set makers who play the numbers game and their coins may not be very appealing. They should award for nicest looking set.)
I myself do not personally value the Old NGC holders and have everything PCGS. I do preserve rattlers and OGH coins. I must admit I sent this in banking on 1 of 2 things: it goes 68 or crosses and gets the gold bean back. Plan B is up next...I hope it works out.
All that said, it is a nice coin and I would have it in my collection and not worry about the grade. Chasing 68s can be expensive in this series compared to common 67s. The little ladies are a beautiful coin!!
The best part that if he really likes a coin that he stickers he calls you to try to buy it. Cherry picking the cherries. Smartest guy in the biz.
<< <i>JA is a frigging genius. Hes got the entire PCGS chat room not discussing numismatics but what HE thinks of a coin. Not PCGS, not NGC. Him. Awesome. Collectors are killing themselves over the value of 200 possible combinations of the same grade in a NGC fatty, regular old NGC, old PCGS, new PCGS, rattler, CAC green, CAC Gold, ex CAC gold with a note - the combinations are endless, but it's ultimately about what HE thinks. Genius. >>
Actually it's pretty sad if your really think about how brainwashed some collectors have become
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>The first is that I would venture to guess that this Merc was untoned when submitted to NGC all those years ago. I have seen many, many blue toned silver coins in old fatty NGC holders and many of those coins were dimes. My suspicion has always been that they toned from the sulfur content of the paper. >>
<< <i>...Because once the coin was committed by PCGS to cross, it would be removed from the NGC slab and sent thru grading process as a raw coin. In other words once they decided it was at LEAST ms67 it was removed from the holder and considered for a higher grade whilst outside the NGC plastique. >>
I am not sure that is correct. I have asked many times and never gotten an authoritative answer.
I believe that once the graders settle on a grade for the cross, the coin is sent for cracking and slabbing, and not back to the graders to take another look now that it's raw to see if it might deserve better. From a workflow and efficiency standpoint it doesn't make sense. And we know PCGS cares very much about speed and efficiency.
This would also explain why often a recently crossed coin, when regraded, will upgrade (in my experience). I generally will accept "any" grade for a cross just to get it in PCGS plastic. When I think it's too low I have it regraded (usually with success).
Lance.