Brady suspended
BLUEJAYWAY
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Misses first 4 games next year w/o pay and Pats fined 1 million.
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I read the report and there's not a strong case that Brady asked them to do it. I realize I'm a Patriots apologist, but I believe they should be punished. I just think the Brady penalty is way over the top, given the evidence. I expected one game, maybe 2.
and center (the people who touch the ball regularly) couldn't tell the ball was "soft"? Yeah, right!
We will always have to wonder how many other games were possibly impacted by this. This is no different
than PEDs. Doing something that is against the rules in order to gain an advantage is cheating.
Oh well. Clearly the economics of the NFL are more important to the Commissioner's office (and the owners) than
making sure that the game is played in such a way that no team receives an advantage that the other team
does not.
Dave
<< <i>That's all he gets for messing with the integrity of the game? And the Patriot receivers, running backs
and center (the people who touch the ball regularly) couldn't tell the ball was "soft"? Yeah, right!
We will always have to wonder how many other games were possibly impacted by this. This is no different
than PEDs. Doing something that is against the rules in order to gain an advantage is cheating.
Oh well. Clearly the economics of the NFL are more important to the Commissioner's office (and the owners) than
making sure that the game is played in such a way that no team receives an advantage that the other team
does not. >>
+4
IMF
I don't think it makes a big difference in the game, so I'm torn on the significance of a competitive advantage, but rules are rules.
Just seems to me like a rule that could be negated if the NFL just supplied the balls.
<< <i>Let me be clear: my team cheated and deserves to be punished. But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls . Without that evjdence, being suspendid for 25% of the season is excessiv. To stick with the PEDS example, in those cases there must be a failed test or other legal documentation that the substance was taken. That kind of concrete evjdence is lacking as it pertains to Brady's guilt. It doesn't matter what we think we know. >>
I'm waiting for Ortiz to say he never took PED's...All I hear is about all the tests he has taken....Oh and there is Manny
IMF
<< <i>It'll get knocked down to 2 games more than likely. It sounds like all he had to do was not lie about it and cooperate he might have got off with a fine. >>
2 games would be acceptable to me, since it's clear that it's "more likely than not" that he had some knowledge.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let me be clear: my team cheated and deserves to be punished. But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls . Without that evjdence, being suspendid for 25% of the season is excessiv. To stick with the PEDS example, in those cases there must be a failed test or other legal documentation that the substance was taken. That kind of concrete evjdence is lacking as it pertains to Brady's guilt. It doesn't matter what we think we know. >>
I'm waiting for Ortiz to say he never took PED's...All I hear is about all the tests he has taken....Oh and there is Manny >>
Manny is a cheating bum. The Ortiz case is more complex, but I don't feel like getting into that.
BTW, this thread should have been started in the sports talk forum.
<< <i>But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls. >>
The texts between the equipment guys were pretty incriminating in that respect: Link. Brady wasn't stupid enough to leave a direct paper trail, but it can be inferred from the gifts.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let me be clear: my team cheated and deserves to be punished. But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls . Without that evjdence, being suspendid for 25% of the season is excessiv. To stick with the PEDS example, in those cases there must be a failed test or other legal documentation that the substance was taken. That kind of concrete evjdence is lacking as it pertains to Brady's guilt. It doesn't matter what we think we know. >>
I'm waiting for Ortiz to say he never took PED's...All I hear is about all the tests he has taken....Oh and there is Manny
IMF >>
Talk about a MORONIC post, pretty much every MLB team has a PED user on it and probably your Hero Cal Ripken was dirty too
<< <i>Let me be clear: my team cheated and deserves to be punished. But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls . Without that evjdence, being suspendid for 25% of the season is excessiv. To stick with the PEDS example, in those cases there must be a failed test or other legal documentation that the substance was taken. That kind of concrete evjdence is lacking as it pertains to Brady's guilt. It doesn't matter what we think we know. >>
Dan,
He refused to cooperate with the investigation. That, by itself, is enough for anyone to understand that he was not in the dark about this.
Joe Jackson was banned from baseball for LIFE for less than that! The only thing we don't know is how long this has been going on. How
many of the 4 superbowl victories (at least 1) and the 3 MVPs were facilitated by this cheating?
If he had admitted it in January, at least one could argue that he was remorseful and truthful. Instead, he ends up looking a slimy as
Hilary Clinton does over her email scandal. We'll just have to trust them I guess, eh?
It will be interesting to see if the slide which happened to Bonds and Arod cards/memorabillia occurs with Brady stuff. Sadly I can't imagine
that it will keep Brady out of the HOF, but if I were Montana, Marino, Elway, Tarkenton, Manning, Young, Kelly, Bradshaw, Staubach, etc. I
would certainly feel that I would not want to see a cheater (who is, almost certainly, also a liar) get enshrined in the HOF to which I was
inducted.
Dave
“The discipline is ridiculous and has no legitimate basis. In my opinion, this outcome was pre-determined; there was no fairness in the Wells investigation whatsoever. There is no evidence that Tom directed footballs be set at pressures below the allowable limits. In fact, the evidence shows Tom clearly emphasized that footballs be set at pressures within the rules. Tom also cooperated with the investigation and answered every question presented to him. The Wells Report presents significant evidence, however, that the NFL lacks standards or protocols with respect to its handling of footballs prior to games; this is not the fault of Tom or the Patriots. The report also presents significant evidence the NFL participated with the Colts in some type of pre-AFC Championship Game planning regarding the footballs. This fact may raise serious questions about the integrity of the games we view on Sundays. We will appeal, and if the hearing officer is completely independent and neutral, I am very confident the Wells Report will be exposed as an incredibly frail exercise in fact-finding and logic. The NFL has a well-documented history of making poor disciplinary decisions that often are overturned when truly independent and neutral judges or arbitrators preside, and a former federal judge has found the commissioner has abused his discretion in the past, so this outcome does not surprise me. Sadly, today’s decision diminishes the NFL as it tells its fans, players and coaches that the games on the field don’t count as much as the games played on Park Avenue.”
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
We all know damn well nobody is deflating those balls without Brady knowing about it and approving of it. His phone/text records would most likely be the evidence to prove he directly knew but again come on guys.
<< <i> Take all the points off the board the Pats scored in the 1st half vs. the colts. >>
Patriots win 28-0
<< <i>The punishment should fit the crime. Take all the points off the board the Pats scored in the 1st half vs. the colts. If you hit a HR with a corked bat they don't count the HR. >>
And how do we "add back" the fumbles and drops that could have occurred if the balls had been inflated to full pressure so that they were not easier to hold onto?
We will never know how such cheating impacted that game, or any other in which it was done. Maybe there would not have been any difference. Maybe, with fully inflated balls, the Pats would have turned over the ball 2-3 times in the 1st half and gotten behind by 17 or 21 points? Would that have changed the play calling on both sides of the ball?
The act of cheating completely alters the sequence of events that make up the game. The pass that was caught which would have been dropped. The sack that would have resulted in a fumble if Brady couldn't squeeze the ball as tightly. Such things might not have happened with fully inflated balls, but there is no way we can ever know for sure.
That's what it means to undermine the integrity of the game. We can never know for sure that the outcome was not impacted by the act of cheating. We cannot know for sure that other games during this season or past seasons were not similarly impacted. If the Pats had won a few less games, maybe they would have not had home field advantage. Yes, it's all hypothetical but if there had been no cheating, or if the "professionals", who are supposed to know what a properly inflated footballs feel like, had
said something then we wouldn't have a situation where it seems that someone (or more than one person) was trying to get away with something, would we?
Brady and all of those who handle the ball regularly (and thus should know what a fully inflated football is supposed to feel like) are all complicit in this cheating act, even if none of them were involved in the cheating acts of "rogue" equipment managers. However, the equipment manager texts and the "gifts" they got from Brady certainly don't look too innocent.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i> Take all the points off the board the Pats scored in the 1st half vs. the colts. >>
Patriots win 28-0 >>
When he comes back it will be against the Colts on Sunday night. I hope he then proceeds to drop 50 on them to show how lame this whole deflate gate is.
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<< <i>
<< <i>The punishment should fit the crime. Take all the points off the board the Pats scored in the 1st half vs. the colts. If you hit a HR with a corked bat they don't count the HR. >>
And how do we "add back" the fumbles and drops that could have occurred if the balls had been inflated to full pressure so that they were not easier to hold onto?
We will never know how such cheating impacted that game, or any other in which it was done. Maybe there would not have been any difference. Maybe, with fully inflated balls, the Pats would have turned over the ball 2-3 times in the 1st half and gotten behind by 17 or 21 points? Would that have changed the play calling on both sides of the ball?
The act of cheating completely alters the sequence of events that make up the game. The pass that was caught which would have been dropped. The sack that would have resulted in a fumble if Brady couldn't squeeze the ball as tightly. Such things might not have happened with fully inflated balls, but there is no way we can ever know for sure.
That's what it means to undermine the integrity of the game. We can never know for sure that the outcome was not impacted by the act of cheating. We cannot know for sure that other games during this season or past seasons were not similarly impacted. If the Pats had won a few less games, maybe they would have not had home field advantage. Yes, it's all hypothetical but if there had been no cheating, or if the "professionals", who are supposed to know what a properly inflated footballs feel like, had
said something then we wouldn't have a situation where it seems that someone (or more than one person) was trying to get away with something, would we?
Brady and all of those who handle the ball regularly (and thus should know what a fully inflated football is supposed to feel like) are all complicit in this cheating act, even if none of them were involved in the cheating acts of "rogue" equipment managers. However, the equipment manager texts and the "gifts" they got from Brady certainly don't look too innocent. >>
This is all giving an awful lot of credit to 1 psi. Is it possible that it wasn't detected because it's unnoticeable? Could it have helped the defender hold onto an INT? Did it make him over/under throw a ball.
Is Brady the only one to test the rule? Or the only one to get caught?
Does Montana take a perception hit as a GOAT QB candidate because Jerry admitted "cheating"? Did Jerry even take a hit?
I'm no Brady or Pats fan, but this all seems crazy over a psi, and can be remedied with the NFL supplying balls with no input from either team.
<< <i>Are people torqued off enough to sell off his RC from their collection? >>
That's what I was gonna say. If anybody wants to dump their Brady cards now, pm me for my address
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Let me be clear: my team cheated and deserves to be punished. But show me the passage in the report where it says Brady told the employees to deflate the balls . Without that evjdence, being suspendid for 25% of the season is excessiv. To stick with the PEDS example, in those cases there must be a failed test or other legal documentation that the substance was taken. That kind of concrete evjdence is lacking as it pertains to Brady's guilt. It doesn't matter what we think we know. >>
I'm waiting for Ortiz to say he never took PED's...All I hear is about all the tests he has taken....Oh and there is Manny >>
Manny is a cheating bum. The Ortiz case is more complex, but I don't feel like getting into that.
BTW, this thread should have been started in the sports talk forum. >>
I suppose technically you are correct, but my intent for posting here was from the viewpoint of how this news might impact his card values, which are (card values) discussed here. There are times this type of news is posted here I assume(wrongly?),under the guise that this type of news may impact the subjects card values.Perhaps a definitive definition is forthcoming from the mods?
If you think that your favorite sports team has not cheated or bent the rules, I got a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
just remember the wells report did not include Brady's answers, now we will hear his side.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Take all the points off the board the Pats scored in the 1st half vs. the colts. >>
Patriots win 28-0 >>
When he comes back it will be against the Colts on Sunday night. I hope he then proceeds to drop 50 on them to show how lame this whole deflate gate is. >>
AMEN to this!!! I am not at all a Patriots or Tom Brady fan, but I think that even if the Patriots offense was using soccer balls that in place of footballs that day they still would've dominated them. They were clearly the better team and IMO the amount of air in the footballs didn't matter.
"Balls? What balls?"
<< <i> And how do we "add back" the fumbles and drops that could have occurred if the balls had been inflated to full pressure so that they were not easier to hold onto? We will never know how such cheating impacted that game, or any other in which it was done. Maybe there would not have been any difference. Maybe, with fully inflated balls, the Pats would have turned over the ball 2-3 times in the 1st half and gotten behind by 17 or 21 points? Would that have changed the play calling on both sides of the ball? The act of cheating completely alters the sequence of events that make up the game. The pass that was caught which would have been dropped. The sack that would have resulted in a fumble if Brady couldn't squeeze the ball as tightly. Such things might not have happened with fully inflated balls, but there is no way we can ever know for sure. That's what it means to undermine the integrity of the game. We can never know for sure that the outcome was not impacted by the act of cheating. We cannot know for sure that other games during this season or past seasons were not similarly impacted. If the Pats had won a few less games, maybe they would have not had home field advantage. Yes, it's all hypothetical but if there had been no cheating, or if the "professionals", who are supposed to know what a properly inflated footballs feel like, had said something then we wouldn't have a situation where it seems that someone (or more than one person) was trying to get away with something, would we? Brady and all of those who handle the ball regularly (and thus should know what a fully inflated football is supposed to feel like) are all complicit in this cheating act, even if none of them were involved in the cheating acts of "rogue" equipment managers. However, the equipment manager texts and the "gifts" they got from Brady certainly don't look too innocent. >>
Right in theory, dead wrong in practice.
If the refs don't even think enough of the PSI question to record measurements, even when setting up a sting, it tells you something. Among the professionals who should know what a properly inflated football feels like, that you mention, would be the refs who handle the ball prior to every snap. The ref couldn't even recall which gauge he used, yet we are to believe he remembered the measurements?
While baseball umpires routinely take balls out of play, football refs rarely (if ever) do.
This idea that the ball becomes magically more aerodynamic/grippable/catchable at 12.49 PSI is folly.
Since the same texts used in this report show that the Refs inflated the ball to 16 PSI in the Pats Jets game, does this mean that the NFL used PSI to fix games? Same concept that you re espousing .... How many wins were the Pats cheated out of as a result? Maybe a Brady to Moss bomb in the SB? A perfect season? Same concept. Who knows?
3 of the Colts balls were under the limit... Was Luck cheating? Should we doubt his accomplishments?
Also, where is the logic in a report that states that 100 seconds is time enough to enter a bathroom remove, deflate, and repack 12 balls... but allows that the refs had only enough time to gauge 4 colts balls in an entire halftime? Really? 6 refs? One locker room guy? Color me dubious.
That said, IMHO, this is like George Brett and pine tar. Not even equivalent to a Gaylord vaseline ball, let alone a Sosa corked bat.
But to stay with football, I'd say of the recent "integrity of the game" violations it is mind-boggling that repeatedly pumping in crowd noise is treated as nothing, the same violation - doctoring a football after the game starts to improve grip - was done with the Vikings and a heater (they even got a warning), and the Chargers with banned stickum (they lied when asked about it). How are the penalties assessed though? Night and day.
I am admittedly a Pats fan, but I have yet to hear anybody logically explain why the Pats penalty should be more severe. And don't say progressive discipline for Spygate, as the Broncos have been nailed three separate times for salary cap cheating and penalties did not escalate. Brady didn't fully cooperate? The Union advised him not to, just as they advised Adrian Peterson to skip the non-collective bargained meeting Goodell demanded. The courts proved Goodell way overstepped his authority in AP's case, I suspect Brady will try the same course.
It is great theatre, however. Everybody loves when a hero takes a fall. It is a flimsy case on a "misdemeanor" level offense though, with greatly disproportionate penalties levied. I think the pendulum will swing back the other way before this is over.
Bosox1976
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
With gloves or substances that can be used for
Extra "grip" that Brady has any better of
A grip of the football than Rodgers or brees or manning
Etc. people who don't like Brady want to scream from the mountain
Tops that he cheated when I promise those other qb's have the same
Comfortable grip using a glove, substance, or by under or over inflation. Brady
Is the king of all qb's now and people want to
Drag him down, simple as that
<< <i>3 of the Colts balls were under the limit... Was Luck cheating? Should we doubt his accomplishments?
>>
Where'd you hear that?
"Each of the 11 Patriots balls tested at halftime measured below the minimum 12.5 psi level established by the Playing Rules on both gauges. Each of the four Colts balls tested measured within the permissible 12.5 to 13.5 psi range on at least one of the gauges. The measurements were recorded in writing by Richard Farley, an NFL security official who has been assigned to the Patriots and Gillette Stadium for approximately twelve years. Only four Colts balls were tested because the officials were running out of time before the start of the second half."
"Each of the 11 Patriots balls tested at halftime measured below the minimum 12.5 psi level established by the Playing Rules on both gauges. Each of the four Colts balls tested measured within the permissible 12.5 to 13.5 psi range on at least one of the gauges. The measurements were recorded in writing by Richard Farley, an NFL security official who has been assigned to the Patriots and Gillette Stadium for approximately twelve years. Only four Colts balls were tested because the officials were running out of time before the start of the second half." >>
Page twelve of the report - Colts balls 1,2, and 4 were all under 12.5 PSI on one of the two gauges.
So, with 75% of the Colts balls under the limit on one of two gauges, they stopped checking them because they ran out of time? If you believe that, I've got a bridge for sale...
Bosox1976
<< <i>A point that no ones talks about... I don't believe
With gloves or substances that can be used for
Extra "grip" that Brady has any better of
A grip of the football than Rodgers or brees or manning
Etc. people who don't like Brady want to scream from the mountain
Tops that he cheated when I promise those other qb's have the same
Comfortable grip using a glove, substance, or by under or over inflation. Brady
Is the king of all qb's now and people want to
Drag him down, simple as that >>
And why isn't Joe Jackson isn't in the MLB HOF???
As a result of this coming to light Brady's achievements will always be questioned. No way to know either
way if he and the Pats did it with deliberately under-inflated balls that would be easier to have a slightly
better grip with.
It makes no difference if you are a Pats fan or not. A deliberate action was taken to break the rules by
people in the organization who were not likely to have the authority or independent inclination to take such
actions. Those who DID have the authority and the knowledge of how such an action could aid their play
denied knowledge of it, but were not fully cooperative with the investigators.
So you can call it like it is, or you can try to downplay its significance. Making a poor decision and getting
caught does not mean you lack character IF you come forward to admit it and express remorse. Turning the
other cheek, denying involvement (when the circumstances are such as they are) and not being fully
cooperative means you never had any to begin with.
Brady is now the Pete Rose of football. If he were smart, he would accept his 4-game wrist slap and hope that
it never gets any bigger than it is now. The more he persists in trying to appeal or deny being somehow
complicit in this the more he risks becoming the pariah that Rose has become in baseball.
Dave
Next thing you know the wells report part 2 will claim the reason Mark Sanchez ran in to his linemans butt and fumbled was because the Pats deflated the Jets balls. All you haters need to do is bow to our four Super Bowl trophies.
It is a shame that because of your bias against the Patriots, your missing out on enjoying the greatest QB of this generation if not all time.
You probably would have taken shots at Babe Ruth.
Lets not forget the Vikings and another team heating the balls up on the sidelines last year, they were told to knock it off by the NFL but not the Patriots. The Chargers in 2012 with a towel full of stick um. just a small fine. every other team in the NFL are angels and do nothing wrong lol
<< <i>Page twelve of the report - Colts balls 1,2, and 4 were all under 12.5 PSI on one of the two gauges.
>>
"Exponent concluded that, within the range of likely game conditions and circumstances studied, they could identify no set of credible
environmental or physical factors that completely accounts for the Patriots halftime measurements or for the additional loss in air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls, as compared to the loss in air pressure exhibited by the Colts game balls."
Is all about his grip on the ball? His greatness
Is in his leadership and calm under pressure and intelligence. Where
Are those unbiased people saying all championships Romanowski
Won should be stripped? He wore any type of lubricant he could
On his jersey to avoid being blocked or held. It is a witch hunt since Tom is the
Golden boy. Brady whipped the Colts repeatedly so it's not surprising
They would be invoked in a sting operation
Referee Walt Anderson didn’t clearly recall which gauge he used to set the pressure in the Patriots balls at 12.5 PSI before the game. Page 52 of the Wells report reveals that it was Anderson’s “best recollection” that he used before the game the gauge with the logo and the longer, crooked needle. In other words, Anderson recalls using the gauge before the game that, based on the halftime measurements, leads to a finding of no tampering.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/pressure-gau...
Yet, despite the referee's best recollection the NFL investigators used the other gauge to support their hypothesis that the footballs were tampered with.
working link
Bosox1976
Baseball teams manipulate the playing surface (such as length of grass) based on the strengths of their teams.
In hockey, many players use illegal equipment such as sticks with illegal curves or goalies with oversize pads. Pucks react differently based on whether the are cold or warm, and teams sometimes prefer bouncier pucks if the team is less skilled.
The problem is they got caught at the wrong time and at the wrong stage. All casual fans and people who've never played a sport or understood sports are acting like this is the end of the world, which isn't surprising considering how the media is spoon feeding the masses this righteous indignation.
-Nathanael
<< <i>As far as public outcry in regard to manipulating equipment, I can't remember anything like this before. Brady hasn't helped his cause at all by what he has said to date, but gamesmanship has been around since the first game, and it is part of every sports team and every player looking for a personal or collective edge. The idea that Brady and the Pats are cheaters and everyone else isn't is pretty laughable.
Baseball teams manipulate the playing surface (such as length of grass) based on the strengths of their teams.
In hockey, many players use illegal equipment such as sticks with illegal curves or goalies with oversize pads. Pucks react differently based on whether the are cold or warm, and teams sometimes prefer bouncier pucks if the team is less skilled.
The problem is they got caught at the wrong time and at the wrong stage. All casual fans and people who've never played a sport or understood sports are acting like this is the end of the world, which isn't surprising considering how the media is spoon feeding the masses this righteous indignation.
-Nathanael >>
^^^^this
<< <i>I live in New England and I'm an eagles fan. I hated the pats with a passion until deflategate. It is the most over hyped, over dramatic, reactive penalty I have ever seen. 1) there is zero evidence Brady told the equipment guys to do anything to the balls after they were submitted. He said he wants them a certain way but there is nothing wrong with that. The organization was caught cheating so pay a price I guess... Even though the crime is on par with pumping sound into the stadium the penalty is off the reservation. I hope Brady goes complete heel this year.. Become the ric flair of the NFL and have a 2007 like season but without any helmet catch >>
The only people that will disagree with your unbiased and reasonable view of this whole thing are the fans that just hate the Patriots because they are sick of them winning.