<< <i>Stan, one box has 24 packs and the other has 36 packs. One box has packs with 10 cards per pack, the other has packs with 12 cards per pack. Steve frequently breaks these boxes down to sell them by the pack. Not to mention the fact that a single 71 pack will command a higher price than an 86 pack in any case. It's simple math, really.
71 Topps baseball wax boxes are scarcer than 86 Fleer basketball wax boxes. Anyone who closely follows or collects unopened product realizes this. If you don't realize this, you are either not paying attention to the unopened market, or don't follow it.
In either case, I can't add any more to the topic than I already have. Feel free to get the last word in.. >>
What's with the catty remark of getting the last word in? Come on...
I understand one box has 24 packs, and one has 36. That isn't the point. We are speaking of WHOLE box buy prices. Sure, Steve sells some boxes by the pack, but he also sells high end boxes whole. I doubt he would bust up an entire box of 71's to sell per pack unless this forum done a box break or something to that effect. You know this..
You claim one is more scarce than the other, but like I said, none of us know what the old timers have hoarded out there. Like it or not, we just don't. Just like what keeps happening with T206 Honus Wagners, and The Black Swamp Find that changes everything..
The fact that Steve offers the same buy price on both boxes tells me he may know something we don't.
P.S. Just recently, my buddy's grandfather passed away. He was the candy/vending/distribution man in our area for about the last 5 decades. Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details. I knew my friend's grandfather for decades and had no idea that he had a stash of unopened. Cases like this are why I say you never know what's out there.
Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
Edited to added comments. >>
So you're an "experienced" collector and so is your buddy, right? You said he knows what he's looking at. And you've known his Grandfather for decades and the three of you never talked cards once? He never said, "Oh, I got some in opened boxes."
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
Edited to added comments. >>
So you're an "experienced" collector and so is your buddy, right? You said he knows what he's looking at. And you've known his Grandfather for decades and the three of you never talked cards once? He never said, "Oh, I got some in opened boxes." >>
I knew his grandfather, as in seeing him and saying hi when he would come in to where I worked and stuff like that. Hi, how you doing, nice day, stuff like that. No, I never discussed cards or anything with the man as we were not best buddies or anything of that sorts. I'm sure he knew his grandson collected cards, because I do know he used to give him boxes for his birthdays, Christmas, etc... when we were kids, because my friend would tell me such. Neither of us ever dreamed that his grandfather kept any back stock.
It's a shame when a poster can't share a personal life experience without being placed on trial..
If Steve had a box of 1986 Fleer Basketball and a box of 1971 Topps (any series) in his store and he had a price tag of $35,000 for both. Which box do you think would sell the quickest? I know that I would be a buyer of the 1971 Topps the second it hit his store. The 1986 fleer box would not be hit for a very long time at that price but would eventually sell around the $30,000 mark. A true fresh box of 1971 Topps would be on the top of many unopened collectors lists.
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
This has been an interesting read. Im a football guy(and a poor one at that ) But if both boxes were offered to me for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy
<< <i>This has been an interesting read. Im a football guy(and a poor one at that ) But if both boxes were offered to me for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy >>
The real question no one can answer is why does an expert like Steve offer the same buy price for both boxes, if the 71 boxes are supposed to be that much more special? Or does this mean the 86 Fleer isn't as plentiful as some may want to believe? I don't know, but it sure is interesting..
<< <i>This has been an interesting read. Im a football guy(and a poor one at that ) But if both boxes were offered to me for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy >>
The real question no one can answer is why does an expert like Steve offer the same buy price for both boxes, if the 71 boxes are supposed to be that much more special? Or does this mean the 86 Fleer isn't as plentiful as some may want to believe? I don't know, but it sure is interesting..
Edited: To add comment. >>
Of course, we can not know that answer. But, if I was a betting man, I would bet that Steves buy prices are just a number to draw people to the table. If somebody actually had 1 of these boxes, and he wanted it, Im willing to bet a nickel that price is negotiable
<< <i>Of course, we can not know that answer. But, if I was a betting man, I would bet that Steves buy prices are just a number to draw people to the table. If somebody actually had 1 of these boxes, and he wanted it, Im willing to bet a nickel that price is negotiable >>
I agree that theory could easily apply to either a 71 Topps or 86 Fleer box, or any box for that matter.
The 1971 Topps seems like a no-brainer to me. There are certain collectibles where you can search high and low and have as much money as you want and still not be able to locate an item.
This seems like one of those items to me and would give you a lot of pricing power as a seller. The 1986 Fleer is obviously great too but if you started a thread on a BST board and offered $50,000 I think you could have a box in your hands within 48 hours. I really don't think the same could be said for the 1971 Topps.
When I joined this board nearly five years ago a 1986 Fleer Box was in the $12,000 to $14,000 range and has zoomed up from there. I have no clue what the long run value is of a box but it would seem likely that this rate of price appreciation slows at some point. If you keep compounding a box at a 20%+ annual rate you are past $50k in three years.
When you look at the registry the really big money plays with the key baseball sets and I think the difficulty of finding high grade raw 1971 Topps would make a box potentially appealing to someone willing to role the dice. I remember seeing a PSA 10 Steve Garvey sell for close to $26,000 so while it is not probable you could in theory strike gold.
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes?
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes? >>
Just an FYI. The value of the BGS 10 Jordan has plunged. In the past year one was listed at auction and didn't pass $70k. Still a lot of money but a far cry from 100k or 200k.
Personally I can't even begin to understand why someone would hit his Buy Price which for most products is a wholesale price. Neither of these two items are wholesale type boxes. If you had to, pay him his fee to wrap it and let the box fly in a high end auction like REA. I feel confident you could surpass whatever his buy price is if collectors were given a shot at it.
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes? >>
Just an FYI. The value of the BGS 10 Jordan has plunged. In the past year one was listed at auction and didn't pass $70k. Still a lot of money but a far cry from 100k or 200k.
Personally I can't even begin to understand why someone would hit his Buy Price which for most products is a wholesale price. Neither of these two items are wholesale type boxes. If you had to, pay him his fee to wrap it and let the box fly in a high end auction like REA. I feel confident you could surpass whatever his buy price is if collectors were given a shot at it. >>
That Garvey may no longer bring the same price it originally brought either. I was just pointing out the Jordan has sold huge as well. Lately, Jordan PSA 9's have been pushing towards $3,000, and PSA 10's between $12,000-$14,000.
At auction anything is possible on a legit box of either 71's or 86's. Good or bad.
No wrong answer here, but I'd take the 71 without a nanosecond's hesitation. It feels like the far more special, collection-distinguishing piece. It's not about the contents but the piece itself, in this case. Besides, if someone wants a condition-rare Jordan RC, they can find one anywhere; no need to rip a 28k wax box and gamble. Just spend 2750 or 10k and get a nice one. Heck, mine cost me $400. In contrast one could wave big bounty money around and still not find a perfect provenance 71 baseball wax box. Either way, super fun hypothetical to contemplate on a procrastinating 4/20!
Superb thread. I'm always down for a civil unopened debate with at least one individual on each end of the spectrum. Hope this sucker's legs aren't suffering from fatigue.
Given the opportunity to acquire one of these two, I'd opt for the '71 box every day of the week and twice on Sundays. In a perfect unopened world, I not only want something inherently cool, but also an item that no one else has. Or at the very least, what the fewest number of fellow collectors own. And seeing as I've been on these boards for almost three years and have yet to view/hear/read about a wax baseball box from 1971 Topps, the decision is a quick one. Breaking down the perceived ROI that lies within won't change a thing. The same applies for infinitesimal probabilities. It's the unknown, the what could be inside (5th minty Munson? First gem?) that proves invaluable. And no affront intended, but ideally I'd like to be able to ruminate about such things with as few people as humanly possible, hence my choice.
This has been an enjoyable read. I've had the 71 Topps vs 1986 Fleer BB (and also vs 1979-80 OPC hockey) discussion with several friends.
I think everyone agrees that 1971 Topps is far more scarce than 1986 Fleer BB. So that's the supply side of the equation. Because there hasn't been a public sale of a 1971 Topps box for several years (and hardly any packs during this time), I would not know what to expect on the demand side of the equation. That's why the comparison is tricky. A lack of supply could really drive the price. At present, I believe a 1971 Topps box would command a healthy premium over a 1986 Fleer box.
equire just started to make the point i was going to make regarding, "I would not know what to expect on the demand side of the equation."
i think BY FAR 71 is a tougher box. But i think it makes sense that they are the "same" value because the demand is much much higher for 86 fleer.
The global appeal of the first fleer basketball set with more HOF rookies than most other competing boxes. PSA 10s of the key rookies have skyrocketed in the last 6 mos, that i think the 30K box price for Fleer might not even be taking that into account. There is also the variable of asian buyers that I don't think has quite factored into the price yet. The big asian basketball buyers that drove 90s Jordan inserts crazy, haven't really picked up on the appeal of PSA 10 rookies yet.
ultimately, i think 71 will be a more valuable box over time though because even with a smaller demand, the supply is so much smaller, a few deep pocketed buyers can drive this box higher in auction.
But the 86 fleer is a great investment that i think will only continue to grow and will be a 50K box at some point and will drive us mad when we look back at this post in 8 years or whatever.
It is a great discussion but what about the fact that not all unopened boxes are created equally. I will admit I know nothing about 86 fleer basketball but have heard packs can be cherry picked pretty well depending on sequencing...am I wrong on that? Therefore a box that hasn't been searched would be extremely more attractive than a box that has. Give me a full unopened box of mint 71 packs and I could somewhat care less about anything else. For me it's all about the packs inside the box. The real question isn't which would you rather have, the real question is, with all things being equal, which one would you rather have? Steve will pay more than his number I'm sure for a pristine box then a beat up put together box...it's just that simple...I've opened all kinds of high end unopened products since 2012 and I can tell you this, the only thing that matters is the quality of the packs inside the box. That's all I got.
<< <i>equire just started to make the point i was going to make regarding, "I would not know what to expect on the demand side of the equation."
i think BY FAR 71 is a tougher box. But i think it makes sense that they are the "same" value because the demand is much much higher for 86 fleer.
The global appeal of the first fleer basketball set with more HOF rookies than most other competing boxes. PSA 10s of the key rookies have skyrocketed in the last 6 mos, that i think the 30K box price for Fleer might not even be taking that into account. There is also the variable of asian buyers that I don't think has quite factored into the price yet. The big asian basketball buyers that drove 90s Jordan inserts crazy, haven't really picked up on the appeal of PSA 10 rookies yet.
ultimately, i think 71 will be a more valuable box over time though because even with a smaller demand, the supply is so much smaller, a few deep pocketed buyers can drive this box higher in auction.
But the 86 fleer is a great investment that i think will only continue to grow and will be a 50K box at some point and will drive us mad when we look back at this post in 8 years or whatever. >>
This is part of why I believe in the long run the 86 Fleer is going to be the better investment. There is a lot of money overseas with buyers in Asia, and Jordan is a god to many of those people.
Suppose it all depends if we're talking about what we'd prefer to have to distinguish our collections, or to flip in ten years to some dude in China for a few grand profit. They go absolutely nuts for MJ over there. Personally, I think the 71 box is the far more impressive piece for a collection. And it's not like one would ever take a bath on it if, God forbid, they had to sell.
1. There has been a box of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball on eBay for close to 8 months with an asking price of $40k.
2. And whatever happened to that "unopened" opened "case" of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball that was on eBay and well discussed last summer on these boards for $250k?
Potentially 11 boxes right there available on the market. Can anyone find a documented sell price currently for a '71 Topps baseball box? I believe the basketball has peaked at this time. A great box nonetheless, I would bet most all high end wax box collector/hoarders have their fill of it. I would also bet these same collectors would kill to get a '71 box in their collection if one came up, whether they had one, some, or none in their collections. I personally don't think people are paying $30k for a box to break. And if they are, certainly not enough to seriously deplete the supply.
REA auction for a 1971 3rd series Topps baseball vending box up now. This will provide at least some comparability when it closes on the 25th. Joe Morgan, Fergie Jenkins, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, Rollie Fingers, and Ted Williams, along with the rookie cards of George Foster and Steve Garvey in this series. No Hank, Mays, Ryan though
<< <i>1. There has been a box of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball on eBay for close to 8 months with an asking price of $40k.
2. And whatever happened to that "unopened" opened "case" of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball that was on eBay and well discussed last summer on these boards for $250k?
Potentially 11 boxes right there available on the market. Can anyone find a documented sell price currently for a '71 Topps baseball box? I believe the basketball has peaked at this time. A great box nonetheless, I would bet most all high end wax box collector/hoarders have their fill of it. I would also bet these same collectors would kill to get a '71 box in their collection if one came up, whether they had one, some, or none in their collections. I personally don't think people are paying $30k for a box to break. And if they are, certainly not enough to seriously deplete the supply. >>
An unopened box or boxes without knowing for sure if they are 100% legit is hard for a serious buyer to drop big coin on. I know I would hesitate.
I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest.
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here?
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
dpeck...i heard the same thing as well....but is that something that just got started here and is now "truth"?..i would hope its true because thats what your buying..the equal chance the mjs are in there
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all.
<< <i>REA auction for a 1971 3rd series Topps baseball vending box up now. This will provide at least some comparability when it closes on the 25th. Joe Morgan, Fergie Jenkins, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, Rollie Fingers, and Ted Williams, along with the rookie cards of George Foster and Steve Garvey in this series. No Hank, Mays, Ryan though
<< <i>REA auction for a 1971 3rd series Topps baseball vending box up now. This will provide at least some comparability when it closes on the 25th. Joe Morgan, Fergie Jenkins, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, Rollie Fingers, and Ted Williams, along with the rookie cards of George Foster and Steve Garvey in this series. No Hank, Mays, Ryan though
That one has the new cello wrapping...i was under the impression he's no longer wrapping/authenticating vending boxes. No?
Because I would be interested. For that kind of money id like to know the history >>
Steve will wrap vending boxes if they are from a sealed case. The one exception to this rule is if the box originates from Fritsch. As I had alluded to in an earlier post, Fritsch does have 71 vending along with vending from other years, from whom that 71 REA box was procured.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
EDIT: Spelling >>
Yes, a member did. Yes, there's a double standard but it's done only because the Fleer boxes have a very specific sequence.
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
EDIT: Spelling >>
Yes, a member did. Yes, there's a double standard but it's done only because the Fleer boxes have a very specific sequence. >>
Is this a for sure 100% confirmed from Steve on the 86 Fleer? If so, this double standard makes me think even less of the rest of the wrapped unopened stuff that doesn't say "from a sealed case" on the sticker.
Basically, anyone could search a box or bust packs till they feel the box is cashed out, then fill it back up with packs from another box they feel they have cashed out, and then get it wrapped and sell it as if it were a cherry specimen. Not good..
Cool thread, I think the '71 packs are more scarce and the '86s more iconic. So for my collection I have been buying graded '86 fleer packs and actually don't own a single '71 pack. So for my collection I'm betting on a better return from the fleer packs when I do the comparison. Here's one of my favorites I have picked up so far
This is the closest thing i could find (hopefully someone can fix the link and make it clickable!). Granted this auction was over eight years ago, it wasnt a full box (23 packs so it was one pack shy) and the packs were all graded as opposed to raw--and the realized price is probably less than half of what this lot would sell for today.
grote...thanks for the reply..that makes sense...of course i knew you would know...i shudda just PM'd u directly ...does or did fritsch put those 71 vending boxes in auctions?
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all.
Is this a for sure 100% confirmed from Steve on the 86 Fleer? If so, this double standard makes me think even less of the rest of the wrapped unopened stuff that doesn't say "from a sealed case" on the sticker.
Basically, anyone could search a box or bust packs till they feel the box is cashed out, then fill it back up with packs from another box they feel they have cashed out, and then get it wrapped and sell it as if it were a cherry specimen. Not good.. >>
<< <i>grote...thanks for the reply..that makes sense...of course i knew you would know...i shudda just PM'd u directly ...does or did fritsch put those 71 vending boxes in auctions? >>
NP, seebelow...Fritsch has been providing unopened product to auction houses for the past several years. Virtually all of the boxes being sold via Collect Auctions are from Fritsch.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
the 79 issue was a one-time f up by Steve (at least hopefully it was) where he wrapped legit packs from a different source as 'FASC' as a friendly gesture to a customer, and took hell for it here. At least that was my recollection. No apology or acknowledgement was made, probably to keep his 'FASC' brand intact. 86 Fleer is one of the easiest products to confirm from anyone - not just Steve - regarding if correct packs are there (and they only came in one type of packaging), so that's not likely to happen.
who wins btwn 71 and 86? whichever one you're happiest with on your shelf, of course. I think the fact that the 71 came in series makes it about 5% less attractive. Knowing there's at least 3 of the best card in your box is another selling point for the Fleer. As others have mentioned, you'll do just fine with either. The buy prices might be the same simply because Steve doesn't update everything on the buy list every week, probably just a coincidence.
<< <i>the 79 issue was a one-time f up by Steve (at least hopefully it was) where he wrapped legit packs from a different source as 'FASC' as a friendly gesture to a customer, and took hell for it here. At least that was my recollection. No apology or acknowledgement was made, probably to keep his 'FASC' brand intact. >>
I wish Steve would personally chime in and clear this situation up.
He may have, but every thread that has brought this up before has been poofed, as will this one if we keep talking about it. If memory serves, a customer had 12 case fresh wax trays and an empty wax box, and someone at BBCE wrapped all that together as one wax box FASC. I doubt it has happened before or since, and it could have been Reed and not Steve that did this. Regardless, it's not really relevant to this discussion as that option isn't possible for either of these two items.
Comments
<< <i>Stan, one box has 24 packs and the other has 36 packs. One box has packs with 10 cards per pack, the other has packs with 12 cards per pack. Steve frequently breaks these boxes down to sell them by the pack. Not to mention the fact that a single 71 pack will command a higher price than an 86 pack in any case. It's simple math, really.
71 Topps baseball wax boxes are scarcer than 86 Fleer basketball wax boxes. Anyone who closely follows or collects unopened product realizes this. If you don't realize this, you are either not paying attention to the unopened market, or don't follow it.
In either case, I can't add any more to the topic than I already have. Feel free to get the last word in.. >>
What's with the catty remark of getting the last word in? Come on...
I understand one box has 24 packs, and one has 36. That isn't the point. We are speaking of WHOLE box buy prices. Sure, Steve sells some boxes by the pack, but he also sells high end boxes whole. I doubt he would bust up an entire box of 71's to sell per pack unless this forum done a box break or something to that effect. You know this..
You claim one is more scarce than the other, but like I said, none of us know what the old timers have hoarded out there. Like it or not, we just don't. Just like what keeps happening with T206 Honus Wagners, and The Black Swamp Find that changes everything..
The fact that Steve offers the same buy price on both boxes tells me he may know something we don't.
P.S. Just recently, my buddy's grandfather passed away. He was the candy/vending/distribution man in our area for about the last 5 decades. Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details. I knew my friend's grandfather for decades and had no idea that he had a stash of unopened. Cases like this are why I say you never know what's out there.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
Edited to added comments.
(Name the movie that line comes from anyone)
<< <i>
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
Edited to added comments. >>
So you're an "experienced" collector and so is your buddy, right? You said he knows what he's looking at. And you've known his Grandfather for decades and the three of you never talked cards once? He never said, "Oh, I got some in opened boxes."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Let's just say news got to me that there is a hoard of boxes that my friend is probably going to end up with that dates back to the late 60's from what I am being told. I can't say more about it at this time until I know more details.
If true, that would be quite a find. I have heard many of these "unopened hoard" stories over the years, but very few (if any) turn out to be what was initially anticipated. Ironically, similar stories have been told about 86 Fleer basketball sealed cases, too. If this hoard of unopened boxes actually exists, please post pics here~would love to see them. >>
There's no "if true" about it. It's true. My friend is one of the straightest people I have ever met in my life, and as a fellow collector, he knows what he is looking at. He didn't even know that his grandfather had the unopened until after his passing. Either way, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it here as I did not discuss it with him first.
Edited to added comments. >>
So you're an "experienced" collector and so is your buddy, right? You said he knows what he's looking at. And you've known his Grandfather for decades and the three of you never talked cards once? He never said, "Oh, I got some in opened boxes." >>
I knew his grandfather, as in seeing him and saying hi when he would come in to where I worked and stuff like that. Hi, how you doing, nice day, stuff like that. No, I never discussed cards or anything with the man as we were not best buddies or anything of that sorts. I'm sure he knew his grandson collected cards, because I do know he used to give him boxes for his birthdays, Christmas, etc... when we were kids, because my friend would tell me such. Neither of us ever dreamed that his grandfather kept any back stock.
It's a shame when a poster can't share a personal life experience without being placed on trial..
for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more
scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so
much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you
will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy
<< <i>This has been an interesting read. Im a football guy(and a poor one at that
for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more
scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so
much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you
will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy
The real question no one can answer is why does an expert like Steve offer the same buy price for both boxes, if the 71 boxes are supposed to be that much more special? Or does this mean the 86 Fleer isn't as plentiful as some may want to believe? I don't know, but it sure is interesting..
Edited: To add comment.
<< <i>
<< <i>This has been an interesting read. Im a football guy(and a poor one at that
for free, I would take the 71 baseball. Logic beats a feller over the head here. 1971 baseball absolutly has to be more
scarce than 86-87 B-Ball.
I am an unopened collector,(albeit football) but, for an unopened collector, the rare factor kicks in. It doesnt matter so
much what may or may not be in the packs/box, but the fact that that pack/box is unopened. A piece of history if you
will.
But, just to be clear, if anybody is giving either away for free, Im your guy
The real question no one can answer is why does an expert like Steve offer the same buy price for both boxes, if the 71 boxes are supposed to be that much more special? Or does this mean the 86 Fleer isn't as plentiful as some may want to believe? I don't know, but it sure is interesting..
Edited: To add comment. >>
Of course, we can not know that answer. But, if I was a betting man, I would bet that Steves buy prices are just a number to draw people
to the table. If somebody actually had 1 of these boxes, and he wanted it, Im willing to bet a nickel that price is negotiable
<< <i>Of course, we can not know that answer. But, if I was a betting man, I would bet that Steves buy prices are just a number to draw people
to the table. If somebody actually had 1 of these boxes, and he wanted it, Im willing to bet a nickel that price is negotiable
I agree that theory could easily apply to either a 71 Topps or 86 Fleer box, or any box for that matter.
This seems like one of those items to me and would give you a lot of pricing power as a seller. The 1986 Fleer is obviously great too but if you started a thread on a BST board and offered $50,000 I think you could have a box in your hands within 48 hours. I really don't think the same could be said for the 1971 Topps.
When I joined this board nearly five years ago a 1986 Fleer Box was in the $12,000 to $14,000 range and has zoomed up from there. I have no clue what the long run value is of a box but it would seem likely that this rate of price appreciation slows at some point. If you keep compounding a box at a 20%+ annual rate you are past $50k in three years.
When you look at the registry the really big money plays with the key baseball sets and I think the difficulty of finding high grade raw 1971 Topps would make a box potentially appealing to someone willing to role the dice. I remember seeing a PSA 10 Steve Garvey sell for close to $26,000 so while it is not probable you could in theory strike gold.
$100,000 BGS 10 Jordan
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes?
<< <i>If you want to talk about what high grade singles from these two products have sold for, a BGS 10 1986 Fleer Jordan has sold for $100,000.
$100,000 BGS 10 Jordan
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes? >>
Just an FYI. The value of the BGS 10 Jordan has plunged. In the past year one was listed at auction and didn't pass $70k. Still a lot of money but a far cry from 100k or 200k.
Personally I can't even begin to understand why someone would hit his Buy Price which for most products is a wholesale price. Neither of these two items are wholesale type boxes. If you had to, pay him his fee to wrap it and let the box fly in a high end auction like REA. I feel confident you could surpass whatever his buy price is if collectors were given a shot at it.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you want to talk about what high grade singles from these two products have sold for, a BGS 10 1986 Fleer Jordan has sold for $100,000.
$100,000 BGS 10 Jordan
Most guys that want a box of 71 Topps are not buying it to bust. Let's be honest, they know the odds are slim to none of hitting that gem card.
The guys that have been busting the 86 Fleer are really drying that product up. There is far less available now than there has been in the last few years. Due to the nature of his business, maybe an expert like Steve knows more about what is out there, or what has been offered to him, and that is why his buy price is the same for both boxes? >>
Just an FYI. The value of the BGS 10 Jordan has plunged. In the past year one was listed at auction and didn't pass $70k. Still a lot of money but a far cry from 100k or 200k.
Personally I can't even begin to understand why someone would hit his Buy Price which for most products is a wholesale price. Neither of these two items are wholesale type boxes. If you had to, pay him his fee to wrap it and let the box fly in a high end auction like REA. I feel confident you could surpass whatever his buy price is if collectors were given a shot at it. >>
That Garvey may no longer bring the same price it originally brought either. I was just pointing out the Jordan has sold huge as well. Lately, Jordan PSA 9's have been pushing towards $3,000, and PSA 10's between $12,000-$14,000.
At auction anything is possible on a legit box of either 71's or 86's. Good or bad.
NBA is the way fellas.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
Instagram: mattyc_collection
Given the opportunity to acquire one of these two, I'd opt for the '71 box every day of the week and twice on Sundays. In a perfect unopened world, I not only want something inherently cool, but also an item that no one else has. Or at the very least, what the fewest number of fellow collectors own. And seeing as I've been on these boards for almost three years and have yet to view/hear/read about a wax baseball box from 1971 Topps, the decision is a quick one. Breaking down the perceived ROI that lies within won't change a thing. The same applies for infinitesimal probabilities. It's the unknown, the what could be inside (5th minty Munson? First gem?) that proves invaluable. And no affront intended, but ideally I'd like to be able to ruminate about such things with as few people as humanly possible, hence my choice.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I think everyone agrees that 1971 Topps is far more scarce than 1986 Fleer BB. So that's the supply side of the equation. Because there hasn't been a public sale of a 1971 Topps box for several years (and hardly any packs during this time), I would not know what to expect on the demand side of the equation. That's why the comparison is tricky. A lack of supply could really drive the price. At present, I believe a 1971 Topps box would command a healthy premium over a 1986 Fleer box.
i think BY FAR 71 is a tougher box. But i think it makes sense that they are the "same" value because the demand is much much higher for 86 fleer.
The global appeal of the first fleer basketball set with more HOF rookies than most other competing boxes. PSA 10s of the key rookies have skyrocketed in the last 6 mos, that i think the 30K box price for Fleer might not even be taking that into account. There is also the variable of asian buyers that I don't think has quite factored into the price yet. The big asian basketball buyers that drove 90s Jordan inserts crazy, haven't really picked up on the appeal of PSA 10 rookies yet.
ultimately, i think 71 will be a more valuable box over time though because even with a smaller demand, the supply is so much smaller, a few deep pocketed buyers can drive this box higher in auction.
But the 86 fleer is a great investment that i think will only continue to grow and will be a 50K box at some point and will drive us mad when we look back at this post in 8 years or whatever.
<< <i>equire just started to make the point i was going to make regarding, "I would not know what to expect on the demand side of the equation."
i think BY FAR 71 is a tougher box. But i think it makes sense that they are the "same" value because the demand is much much higher for 86 fleer.
The global appeal of the first fleer basketball set with more HOF rookies than most other competing boxes. PSA 10s of the key rookies have skyrocketed in the last 6 mos, that i think the 30K box price for Fleer might not even be taking that into account. There is also the variable of asian buyers that I don't think has quite factored into the price yet. The big asian basketball buyers that drove 90s Jordan inserts crazy, haven't really picked up on the appeal of PSA 10 rookies yet.
ultimately, i think 71 will be a more valuable box over time though because even with a smaller demand, the supply is so much smaller, a few deep pocketed buyers can drive this box higher in auction.
But the 86 fleer is a great investment that i think will only continue to grow and will be a 50K box at some point and will drive us mad when we look back at this post in 8 years or whatever. >>
This is part of why I believe in the long run the 86 Fleer is going to be the better investment. There is a lot of money overseas with buyers in Asia, and Jordan is a god to many of those people.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
2. And whatever happened to that "unopened" opened "case" of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball that was on eBay and well discussed last summer on these boards for $250k?
Potentially 11 boxes right there available on the market. Can anyone find a documented sell price currently for a '71 Topps baseball box? I believe the basketball has peaked at this time. A great box nonetheless, I would bet most all high end wax box collector/hoarders have their fill of it. I would also bet these same collectors would kill to get a '71 box in their collection if one came up, whether they had one, some, or none in their collections. I personally don't think people are paying $30k for a box to break. And if they are, certainly not enough to seriously deplete the supply.
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=34144
<< <i>1. There has been a box of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball on eBay for close to 8 months with an asking price of $40k.
2. And whatever happened to that "unopened" opened "case" of '86/'87 Fleer Basketball that was on eBay and well discussed last summer on these boards for $250k?
Potentially 11 boxes right there available on the market. Can anyone find a documented sell price currently for a '71 Topps baseball box? I believe the basketball has peaked at this time. A great box nonetheless, I would bet most all high end wax box collector/hoarders have their fill of it. I would also bet these same collectors would kill to get a '71 box in their collection if one came up, whether they had one, some, or none in their collections. I personally don't think people are paying $30k for a box to break. And if they are, certainly not enough to seriously deplete the supply. >>
An unopened box or boxes without knowing for sure if they are 100% legit is hard for a serious buyer to drop big coin on. I know I would hesitate.
You're betting is speculation right now.
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here?
<< <i>
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
That is the one I am referring to.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
EDIT: Spelling
<< <i>REA auction for a 1971 3rd series Topps baseball vending box up now. This will provide at least some comparability when it closes on the 25th. Joe Morgan, Fergie Jenkins, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, Rollie Fingers, and Ted Williams, along with the rookie cards of George Foster and Steve Garvey in this series. No Hank, Mays, Ryan though
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=34144 >>
That one has the new cello wrapping...i was under the impression he's no longer wrapping/authenticating vending boxes. No?
Because I would be interested. For that kind of money id like to know the history
<< <i>
<< <i>REA auction for a 1971 3rd series Topps baseball vending box up now. This will provide at least some comparability when it closes on the 25th. Joe Morgan, Fergie Jenkins, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, Rollie Fingers, and Ted Williams, along with the rookie cards of George Foster and Steve Garvey in this series. No Hank, Mays, Ryan though
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=34144 >>
That one has the new cello wrapping...i was under the impression he's no longer wrapping/authenticating vending boxes. No?
Because I would be interested. For that kind of money id like to know the history >>
Steve will wrap vending boxes if they are from a sealed case. The one exception to this rule is if the box originates from Fritsch. As I had alluded to in an earlier post, Fritsch does have 71 vending along with vending from other years, from whom that 71 REA box was procured.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
the '86 Fleer Box will ALWAYS have Michael Jordan's Rookie Card in it.
in 100 years, Michael Jordan will STILL be Globally Popular.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
EDIT: Spelling >>
Yes, a member did. Yes, there's a double standard but it's done only because the Fleer boxes have a very specific sequence.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just realized I should probably be more clear. What I am saying is that we don't know if the box on Ebay was pieced together. Concerns like that is what makes me think twice on any of the unopened stuff to be honest. >>
I was under the impression that Steve wouldn't wrap a 1986 Fleer box if the pack sequencing had been altered.
The one I see for sale is wrapped by BBCX. Am I mistaken here? >>
Didn't a member not too long ago post about piecing together 79 Topps boxes and they were wrapped? Is there a double standard on this stuff? This is a good question you bring up.
EDIT: Spelling >>
Yes, a member did. Yes, there's a double standard but it's done only because the Fleer boxes have a very specific sequence. >>
Is this a for sure 100% confirmed from Steve on the 86 Fleer? If so, this double standard makes me think even less of the rest of the wrapped unopened stuff that doesn't say "from a sealed case" on the sticker.
Basically, anyone could search a box or bust packs till they feel the box is cashed out, then fill it back up with packs from another box they feel they have cashed out, and then get it wrapped and sell it as if it were a cherry specimen. Not good..
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
<< <i>Can anyone find a documented sell price currently for a '71 Topps baseball box? >>
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=66596
This is the closest thing i could find (hopefully someone can fix the link and make it clickable!). Granted this auction was over eight years ago, it wasnt a full box (23 packs so it was one pack shy) and the packs were all graded as opposed to raw--and the realized price is probably less than half of what this lot would sell for today.
...does or did fritsch put those 71 vending boxes in auctions?
71 Topps Box
Is this a for sure 100% confirmed from Steve on the 86 Fleer? If so, this double standard makes me think even less of the rest of the wrapped unopened stuff that doesn't say "from a sealed case" on the sticker.
Basically, anyone could search a box or bust packs till they feel the box is cashed out, then fill it back up with packs from another box they feel they have cashed out, and then get it wrapped and sell it as if it were a cherry specimen. Not good.. >>
+1
<< <i>grote...thanks for the reply..that makes sense...of course i knew you would know...i shudda just PM'd u directly
...does or did fritsch put those 71 vending boxes in auctions? >>
NP, seebelow...Fritsch has been providing unopened product to auction houses for the past several years. Virtually all of the boxes being sold via Collect Auctions are from Fritsch.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
who wins btwn 71 and 86? whichever one you're happiest with on your shelf, of course. I think the fact that the 71 came in series makes it about 5% less attractive. Knowing there's at least 3 of the best card in your box is another selling point for the Fleer. As others have mentioned, you'll do just fine with either. The buy prices might be the same simply because Steve doesn't update everything on the buy list every week, probably just a coincidence.
<< <i>the 79 issue was a one-time f up by Steve (at least hopefully it was) where he wrapped legit packs from a different source as 'FASC' as a friendly gesture to a customer, and took hell for it here. At least that was my recollection. No apology or acknowledgement was made, probably to keep his 'FASC' brand intact. >>
I wish Steve would personally chime in and clear this situation up.