The technicals
rawteam1
Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
Original
Toned
Artificial tone
Genuine
Altered
Cleaned
Wiped
Dipped
Scratched
Chopped
Dinged
Rim ding
Little luster
Medium luster
No luster
Bag marks
Details
Uncirculated details
Any grade details
Real
Not as bad in hand
Picture does it no justice
You grade it
I grade it ________ , but am not in any way a professional grader and do not guarantee the grade, but forgot to tell you
Looks like it's _______
Altered surfaces
Rubbed
Puttied
Holed
And a plethora of others is why silver n gold will never be money...
Toned
Artificial tone
Genuine
Altered
Cleaned
Wiped
Dipped
Scratched
Chopped
Dinged
Rim ding
Little luster
Medium luster
No luster
Bag marks
Details
Uncirculated details
Any grade details
Real
Not as bad in hand
Picture does it no justice
You grade it
I grade it ________ , but am not in any way a professional grader and do not guarantee the grade, but forgot to tell you
Looks like it's _______
Altered surfaces
Rubbed
Puttied
Holed
And a plethora of others is why silver n gold will never be money...
keceph `anah
0
Comments
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>news flash - silver and gold have always been money. lol >>
Always? Have they been "money" longer than apples have?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
How so? Who do you consider to have been organized waayyy back in the day?
For the record in case you suspect my question is a loaded one, I can't stand religion and how man uses it, but I love Him.
The only people who don't get it are those who can't hold on to it, long enough to see why some is worth more than an other. (other : being used differently than in a hobby)
Mark it on your calendar and see . If either were predictable , so would be the weather.
<< <i>This was interesting, at least to me. Lots I didn't know. Some of you are more right than others, it appears.
Agree...
And the winner is: Baley "I'll bet that food and tools, among other assets such as furs and skins, salt and spices, and other commodities, functioned as money long before, and more widely, than gold and silver did in human history."
"As early as 9000 BC both grain and cattle were used as money or as barter"
"The use of gold as proto-money has been traced back to the fourth millennium BC when the Egyptians used gold bars of a set weight as a medium of exchange, as had been done earlier in Mesopotamia with silver bars."
And the winner is:
"gold and silver have been money longer than anything else, even paper. Everything else is just a passing fad. While it was not the first money, gold will most likely be the last money."
Unlike all other forms of money gold and silver have withstood the test of time. They have been recognized as money longer than anything else and continue to be recognized as money. Something being the first money doesn't make it the longest lasting money.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I think rawteam is suggesting that idiot collectors are standing in the way of gold and silver being money .
It's hard to say a silver dollar is worth a dollar when some fool is willing to pay 1000's for it because its a certain date or is a pretty color.
Collectable bullion is an example of greshams law taken to the point of ridiculousness .
Wake up fools we have met the enemy and it is us
,
Case in point, my Porn this week, would be worth more in better condition, and less in worse. What it will never do is be melted and be useful in industry, any more than I'll be able to spend it at Costco
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Gold had zero value until organized religion. Hmmmm... >>
It would seem to me that gold had value from the first time that man set eyes on it and eventually realized it was shiny/golden, beautiful, malleable, scarce, rust proof/inert, heavy, etc. When that actually occurred is open for debate. It probably preceded organized religion. The first neanderthal "rock" collectors should probably get credit (ie the Pogue's of their generation).
No doubt that some organized religions increased gold's popularity (ancient Egyptians and Hebrews, etc.). Organized religion probably goes back to at least 8,000-10,000 yrs BC. And one can make an argument that specific burial techniques by man well before then is a sign of religious ceremonies (10,000-50,000 BC). Egyptians around 3,000 BC seem to get the nod for popularizing gold artifacts.
Gold's history
<< <i>I think rawteam is suggesting that idiot collectors are standing in the way of gold and silver being money. >>
Hogwash. The fact that currency collectors pay premiums for US notes never prevents them from being money, it only prevents them from being spent as money at their face value. Make a collector a reasonable offer over face value and he will spend his collectible note (or gold) to get your non-collectible notes.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Collector premium has nothing to do with the fact that bullion is universally recognized for what it is. If the premium for a 2009 Prooflike UHR went to zero, the coin would still be negotiable at whatever melt happens to be.
Which is why you have a choice between generic gold vs. "collectable" gold. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but they both have a baseline value and always will.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>it's all about the premium to melt for the vast majority of "bullion" and that once you stick it in a plastic case and it's bought and sold at a markup among collectors of these obscure items
Collector premium has nothing to do with the fact that bullion is universally recognized for what it is. If the premium for a 2009 Prooflike UHR went to zero, the coin would still be negotiable at whatever melt happens to be.
Which is why you have a choice between generic gold vs. "collectable" gold. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but they both have a baseline value and always will. >>
No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation. Some think its too low some think its too high I suppose depending on whether they are in buying mode or selling mode.
If we don't agree on spot how can we possibly agree on the PDP ?
Yes, to a dealer of metals (pawn shop, jeweler, scrapper, coin shop guy, barber, etc.
And this is true of the "money" value or characteristic of ANY tangible object, to the extent that it's liquid and can be sold to a willing buyer for cash or credit, to spend somewhere else
(i.e, all the other things, besides gold, that a pawn shop will buy from you for cash money) No doubt at all that gold and silver are among the most liquid of tangible assets, no argument there whatsoever.
The behavior of "stacking," looked at objectively, though is collecting (buying) objects for resale later. Folks can call it whatever they want, investing, hoarding, "rescuing dollars" sure, no problem.
But to the general marketplace they're not "money" anymore, and this is the key: when is the last time you paid for a purchase with silver, and received change in like kind? 1970? How about gold: Never?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i> No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation. >>
You cannot equally compare the value of a promise to deliver one ounce of gold sometime down the road to actually delivering one ounce of gold. Spot price (a promise) is not an accurate valuation for the real McCoy, even with a small premium tacked on. The premium is for the fabrication and/or rarity, not the presence of actual metal.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i> No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation. >>
You cannot equally compare the value of a promise to deliver one ounce of gold sometime down the road to actually delivering one ounce of gold. Spot price (a promise) is not an accurate valuation for the real McCoy, even with a small premium tacked on. The premium is for the fabrication and/or rarity, not the presence of actual metal. >>
You maybe should think about posting after you knew how to define spot price...
Definition: specie
Definition: currency
Definition: money
Definition: fiat money (no results for "fiat currency")
It seems to me that the general marketplace has more than one criterion for "money", and it does not appear to me that gold & silver have been disqualified in some way from being considered as money.
Literally, what you might consider "money" today can disappear in one little "poof" if the computer records get somehow messed up, stolen or destroyed. But that will never happen.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>........No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation....... >>
It's an accurate price for speculative paper contracts only. It may or may not be accurate for physical gold delivered at the end of the month.
My own opinion is that if you had a physical gold "only" exchange, what it traded for would be considerably higher than current paper contract price. If you wanted >5-10 tonnes of gold delivered at the end of April I don't think you get it done anywhere near current contract price. The stuff doesn't grow on trees. Most of us will never get a chance to trade in that kind of market since most of our buying is in at most a few 1 oz gold coins at a time. What the big boys trade large quantities of physical gold for between themselves (ie "real" delivery) is what the real reported price should be. But that's not how today's game is played. The big boyz will dissuade those from taking delivery of 5 tonnes of gold, even if it means paying them a sizable paper premium to spot to accept currency/cash. If they don't have all the gold needed for delivery....they can ALWAYS print up more paper (or digi key strokes in cyberspace) to give you. Keystrokes are unlimited.....physical gold is not. The amount of paper gold traded per day is approx equal to the annual world mining supply (2200-3000 tonnes). If one looks only at the net tonnes per day transferred to new owners, it would be >650 tonnes per day....an amount that could not be quickly covered. Heck, the Germans are waiting to get back a similar amount of gold from London, France, and the US....and it apparently is going to take up to 7 years.
Gold LBMA
<< <i>
<< <i>........No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation....... >>
It's an accurate price for speculative paper contracts only. It may or may not be accurate for physical gold delivered at the end of the month.
My own opinion is that if you had a physical gold "only" exchange, what it traded for would be considerably higher than current paper contract price. If you wanted >5-10 tonnes of gold delivered at the end of April I don't think you get it done anywhere near current contract price. The stuff doesn't grow on trees. Most of us will never get a chance to trade in that kind of market since most of our buying is in at most a few 1 oz gold coins at a time. What the big boys trade large quantities of physical gold for between themselves (ie "real" delivery) is what the real reported price should be. But that's not how today's game is played. The big boyz will dissuade anyone from taking delivery of 5 tonnes of gold, even if it means paying them a sizable paper premium to spot to accept currency/cash. If they don't all the gold needed for delivery....they can ALWAYS print up more paper (or digi key strokes in cyberspace) to give you. Keystrokes are unlimited.....physical gold is not. The amount of paper gold traded per day is approx equal to the annual world mining supply (2200-3000 tonnes). If one looks only at the net tonnes per day transferred to new owners, it would be >650 tonnes per day....an amount that could not be quickly covered. Heck, the Germans are waiting to get back a similar amount of gold from London, France, and the US....and it apparently is going to take up to 7 years.
Gold LBMA >>
This is perhaps one of the most intelligent responses ever posted on here. I agree with it as well. Nice job, RR.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>........No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation....... >>
It's an accurate price for speculative paper contracts only. It may or may not be accurate for physical gold delivered at the end of the month.
My own opinion is that if you had a physical gold "only" exchange, what it traded for would be considerably higher than current paper contract price. If you wanted >5-10 tonnes of gold delivered at the end of April I don't think you get it done anywhere near current contract price. The stuff doesn't grow on trees. Most of us will never get a chance to trade in that kind of market since most of our buying is in at most a few 1 oz gold coins at a time. What the big boys trade large quantities of physical gold for between themselves (ie "real" delivery) is what the real reported price should be. But that's not how today's game is played. The big boyz will dissuade anyone from taking delivery of 5 tonnes of gold, even if it means paying them a sizable paper premium to spot to accept currency/cash. If they don't all the gold needed for delivery....they can ALWAYS print up more paper (or digi key strokes in cyberspace) to give you. Keystrokes are unlimited.....physical gold is not. The amount of paper gold traded per day is approx equal to the annual world mining supply (2200-3000 tonnes). If one looks only at the net tonnes per day transferred to new owners, it would be >650 tonnes per day....an amount that could not be quickly covered. Heck, the Germans are waiting to get back a similar amount of gold from London, France, and the US....and it apparently is going to take up to 7 years.
Gold LBMA >>
This is perhaps one of the most intelligent responses ever posted on here. I agree with it as well. Nice job, RR. >>
RR your hypothetical example is, well, unrealistic. How about taking several delivery's of 100lb or 200 lb, would that have any affect on the price? I seriously doubt it.
In the 60's & 70's, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird, and people take Prozac to make it normal.
<< <i>RR your hypothetical example is, well, unrealistic. How about taking several delivery's of 100lb or 200 lb, would that have any affect on the price? I seriously doubt it >>
would it make a difference to price if the 100 or 200 lbs could not be delivered?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i> No one can even agree that spot price is an accurate valuation. >>
You cannot equally compare the value of a promise to deliver one ounce of gold sometime down the road to actually delivering one ounce of gold. Spot price (a promise) is not an accurate valuation for the real McCoy, even with a small premium tacked on. The premium is for the fabrication and/or rarity, not the presence of actual metal. >>
Well spot is a clearing price for paper. Obviously physical is a different matter . People buying paper never want to actually take delivery therefore there is an implied discount known as the HPF .
With physical there should not be an HPF involved only a PDP
And sometimes, despite all that, someone still steals it. Yet, the big "what if" of what if everyone actually wanted to take delivery of all the paper gold that's traded, wow that's really scary huh?
At least someone eventually wants to take delivery of the wheat, cotton, and coffee that's traded as "paper", and they have something useful to do with it. A bunch of gold is actually a liability, ya know?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Taking delivery of tons of physical gold is expensive, what with paying for the people and the fuel to move it, rent or purchase of the building to store it, the guards to guard it, the insurance to insure it.
And sometimes, despite all that, someone still steals it. Yet, the big "what if" of what if everyone actually wanted to take delivery of all the paper gold that's traded, wow that's really scary huh?
At least someone eventually wants to take delivery of the wheat, cotton, and coffee that's traded as "paper", and they have something useful to do with it. A bunch of gold is actually a liability, ya know? >>
We could fix that you know. Have PM's trade with a special type of musical chairs future. Say a certain percentage just end randomly and whoever holds the paper has to take delivery .
Or "Hot Potato" in which the person "holding the bag" (or stacks) of metal when the music stops is stuck with it and has to either sell it at a loss, or wait like 30 years for another PM bubble to occur to break even.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>We could fix that you know. Have PM's trade with a special type of musical chairs future. Say a certain percentage just end randomly and whoever holds the paper has to take delivery
Or "Hot Potato" in which the person "holding the bag" (or stacks) of metal when the music stops is stuck with it and has to either sell it at a loss, or wait like 30 years for another PM bubble to occur to break even. >>
Physical metal or fiat paper? Really? Hmmm... decisions, decisions..
Those are two of the choices from among, about.. INFINITY choices of what people can spend their money on. I'm looking at timberland in the northwest these days. What's more primal than gold?
Dirt rocks and water and wood.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Physical metal or fiat paper? Really? Hmmm... decisions, decisions..
Those are two of the choices from among, about.. INFINITY choices of what people can spend their money on. I'm looking at timberland in the northwest these days. What's more primal than gold?
Dirt rocks and water and wood. >>
So you admit the paper isn't all that great of a thing to fully put your faith in?
Finding land with trees, water, and that yellow stuff is the real winner.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Do you make a habit of going around trying to get people to "admit" that silly things that you said that they said are true, are not true? >>
I simply asked you a question. Why are you being so defensive?
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>It's not "defensive" to identify and refute faulty logic.
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not) >>
You are reading too much in to a simple question.
I just find it interesting that some of the posters who poo poo the metal/physical asset believing members of this forum are the same ones talking about moving their paper in to things like land, etc.. I wonder why they are doing that if they truly have so much faith in the system and the fiat paper?
<< <i>That system that you refer to... got you everything that you paid money for... >>
That's a matter of opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not "defensive" to identify and refute faulty logic.
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not) >>
You are reading too much in to a simple question.
I just find it interesting that some of the posters who poo poo the metal/physical asset believing members of this forum are the same ones talking about moving their paper in to things like land, etc.. I wonder why they are doing that if they truly have so much faith in the system and the fiat paper? >>
There you go again. They don't have "so much faith" in paper. They just don't have "too much faith" in metals to the point of excluding every single other asset on the planet from consideration. What's interesting is some of the metal fanatics trying so hard to make everything about PMs all-or-nothing. Once again, we wouldn't be here on this forum if we didn't like metals and own big boxes of them. Those of us who own other asset classes in addition to our little piles of metal may or may not take on greater or less risk versus those who have virtually all of their money in metals, time will tell.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not "defensive" to identify and refute faulty logic.
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not) >>
You are reading too much in to a simple question.
I just find it interesting that some of the posters who poo poo the metal/physical asset believing members of this forum are the same ones talking about moving their paper in to things like land, etc.. I wonder why they are doing that if they truly have so much faith in the system and the fiat paper? >>
There you go again. They don't have "so much faith" in paper. They just don't have "too much faith" in metals to the point of excluding every single other asset on the planet from consideration. What's interesting is some of the metal fanatics trying so hard to make everything about PMs all-or-nothing. Once again, we wouldn't be here on this forum if we didn't like metals and own big boxes of them. Those of us who own other asset classes in addition to our little piles of metal may or may not take on greater or less risk versus those who have virtually all of their money in metals, time will tell. >>
No, there you go again. You assume "metal fanatics" don't own anything but metals, when that's not the case the majority of the time. I also don't see them saying PMs or nothing.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not "defensive" to identify and refute faulty logic.
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not) >>
You are reading too much in to a simple question.
I just find it interesting that some of the posters who poo poo the metal/physical asset believing members of this forum are the same ones talking about moving their paper in to things like land, etc.. I wonder why they are doing that if they truly have so much faith in the system and the fiat paper? >>
STMM.. Did you know, that death is the number 1 killer in the world, and that life is sexually transmitted?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not "defensive" to identify and refute faulty logic.
So, Stan, do you admit that the sun will rise tomorrow? (see how that implies that you said at one point that it wouldn't?)
What, I just asked a question. Why are you being such a dandelion? (see, that implies that you are a dandelion, even if you are not) >>
You are reading too much in to a simple question.
I just find it interesting that some of the posters who poo poo the metal/physical asset believing members of this forum are the same ones talking about moving their paper in to things like land, etc.. I wonder why they are doing that if they truly have so much faith in the system and the fiat paper? >>
STMM.. Did you know, that death is the number 1 killer in the world, and that life is sexually transmitted? >>
I wonder what the number one killer of mankind has been?
Stan is convinced that God told him the world will end and if he has gold the aliens (that God created)-because we can't be so arrogant to think there is only life Earth-will come to take him to a planet free if the cesspool of humanity here.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>OPA..that's classic!!
Stan is convinced that God told him the world will end and if he has gold the aliens (that God created)-because we can't be so arrogant to think there is only life Earth-will come to take him to a planet free if the cesspool of humanity here. >>
Sigh... You are a very bitter man. Let me say this, gold or any other material possession means nothing when we check out of this world. I hope God has a sense of humor, cohodk.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear