When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic?

DMWJR · February 16, 2015 2:23PM

This is long, so I apologize on the front end, but I believe it is worth reading all the way through.

There are several threads running now about coins that have been "overgraded" by TPG's. This board in particular appreciates the discount applied to NGC plastic and tries to evaluate those coins on their own merits. A novice to grading simply deducts a point or two from PCGS prices when buying an NGC coins.

All coin grading services apply a subjective quality to grading and all coin grading services make mistakes -- both over and under grading coins.

I like PCGS plastic, to state it in the vernacular. Why? Of the current services, this company has been the most consistent and follows my understanding of traditional grading. One has to look no farther than classic copper to see that an entire group of collectors (EAC) almost never agrees with current certification services.

When looking for coins I want for my set (and no it is not exclusively a registry set), I look at PCGS coins first and do my best to determine if the coin meets my criteria for the grade assigned, or if different, the price I would pay for the coin in the grade I deem it truly is. Mistakes are made by me, as well as TPG's.

In my Lincoln sets, I have coins that are undergraded, properly graded, and overgraded. The coins are what they are, regardless of the holder. I do enjoy it when PCGS recognizes the same qualities I see in a coin and assigns it the grade I agree with. We disagree on others. In my Indian set, I have had the opportunity to buy coins that are consistent with my assigned grade, with a few exceptions. Those coins have not yet been respected properly at PCGS and I will continue to argue for the proper grade because I BELIEVE IN THE COIN. For instance, I have seen over 80% of the 1859's in top grade of 66, and I can tell you without reservation that mine is the best one, including the plus coins. I won't buy another one unless one comes out of the woodwork and proves on its merits that it is the better coin. I have a half dozen pop 1 Indians, mostly that I made because I BELIEVED IN THE COIN. One example is the 1908-s that I paid a very large premium to EERC for. The coin was in a 66red holder and I paid about a 40% premium for it. Others scoffed, but I knew (and Rick knew) that the coin was special. One time back through PCGS and it became the pop 1/0 67red.

Know you series and how to grade it. PCGS isn't educated in every series like a specialist, but they are willing to be educated.

If you are collecting widgets and relying on TPG grades, you are at risk. AU50 1877's are widgets. 1909vdb's are widgets. If you want the right coin in the right holder, be discerning.

If you want to play the plastic game, at least acknowledge to yourself that you are playing plastic and not coins. A decade ago, I built a "plastic" type set of the key dates in many series. I sold them and did quite well. It did not fulfill my collector nature and might as well have been Apple and Microsoft stock. Today, I collect coins that I think are the best regardless of whether they are in any holder or even raw. It is very rewarding, and I only have my conscience to satisfy.

If you think you have the better set, let's do like old timers and compare coin for coin in person, discussing the pros and cons of each. I did this a few years ago with Stewart Blay and our Lincoln sets. Of course he had many nicer coins than mine, many that were interchangeable, and a number of mine were better. It was a great experience, and one I learned a lot from. I saw what some of my coins should have looked like, and I saw some of my coins that were great proven out as great coins.

I wish each of you the very best collecting experience -- the root of which is being honest with yourself about what you are doing. Live or die on plastic ... or live or die on the coin. Nothing right or wrong about either as long as your expectation correlates.

The truth is everyone pays $XXX for the coin and $XXX for the plastic, the sum of which is what you write your check for.

koynekwest · February 16, 2015 2:40PM

I always have and always will buy the coin, not the plastic. Anyone who lets the plastic do their grading for them exclusively may be in for a rude awakening one of these days.

MrEureka · February 16, 2015 2:42PM

When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic?

I think we would all agree that the vast majority of collectors have always, to some extent, been "buying the coin". So I'm not sure what the question really is.

jcping · February 16, 2015 4:48PM

When holders only show "Genuine" and no grade on them. Of course, no more crack out game

Steve27 · February 16, 2015 7:12PM

The majority of collectors do NOT collect slabbed coins. You get a warped view of the collecting world by visiting this site.

ebaybuyer · February 16, 2015 9:14PM

"When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic"? >>> when they are willing to educate themselves rather than rely on a TPG to think for them, in other words, no time soon.

ricko · February 16, 2015 10:20PM

<< Today, I collect coins that I think are the best regardless of whether they are in any holder or even raw. It is very rewarding, and I only have my conscience to satisfy.
>>

I agree totally with this statement. I also think the majority of collectors (not forum members), also judge the coin on it's merits...forums tend to be grade centered and value focused (certainly not all forum members), and depend on plastic and stickers. Too bad...the hobby is so much more. Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN · February 16, 2015 10:54PM

The better question would be "why are so many of the wrong coins in plastic at all"?

DMWJR · February 16, 2015 11:08PM

<< When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic?

I think we would all agree that the vast majority of collectors have always, to some extent, been "buying the coin". So I'm not sure what the question really is. >>

I think you do Andy.

When I first started collecting coins seriously as an adult, I recognized my weakness in grading so I bought mostly graded coins, and would take them home and crack them out and put them in an album or a more aesthetically pleasing display. I didn't care anything about the plastic except that when I purchased a coin it was nice to know what a grading service thought about the coin. Then I discovered that there could be a lot of value and that little bit of plastic and I had to ask myself if I wanted to just throw that in the trash can, or could I enjoy both the coin and keep the plastic. There were market influences at play. Back in those early days, I was assigning no value to the plastic and the check I wrote was entirely for the coin. It's just not so today in most instances. Which would you pay more for, a $220,000 Porsche with no warranty, or one with a 5yr/50k warranty?

oih82w8 · February 16, 2015 11:14PM

BLUF - Buy the coin, respect the PCGS holder.

I have been collecting coins since the late 70's. I have a fairly good eye when it come to grading, however when it comes to "details" as the TPGers like to put it, I am lacking on some other than the obvious cleaning. I feel a sense of security when I purchase a PCGS coin, and respect their opinion...for the most part.

Lakesammman · February 16, 2015 11:21PM

Nice read. Thanks for posting.

There's no doubt some registry types are influenced by the points they can earn from the plastic, even if the coin isn't all there.

Love the chance to meet with others and compare collections - the best for me was the FE/IHC showdown with Blay, Ally and Richards collections on display at PCGS. Best coin of the show was Blay's 1877 "Indian Princess", MS66R that is hands down 67R - bought it raw in a Stack's auction for a very strong price.

A couple of us brought our collections as well and had a great time comparing the merits of each coin date by date.

DMWJR · February 16, 2015 11:56PM

I was there too Lakes, it was a great show and I wish PCGS would promote more like it. Blackberry showed up out of nowhere with his set and, even thought it was not displayed, it was certainly in the same league.

mightyhunter · February 17, 2015 1:46AM

I have a couple of PCGS Registry Sets. Over the years I have upgraded coins and got rid of coins that didn't appeal to my eye. Recently, I have purchased some coins that were actually downgrades for my set. I am always looking for original coins. I am not a big player for blast white coins. You never know what they might look like down the road. I am also not interested in NGC graded coins for the most part. I have found them more difficult to sell. I have no desire to purchase an ANACS or NGC graded coin with the idea of crossing it over to PCGS plastic.

roadrunner · February 17, 2015 2:16AM

When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic?

When the majority of knowledgeable buyers start to ignore the plastic surrounding the coin.........and buy the coin on its own merits, knowing that the market in general will support their decision when it comes time to sell. I guess that means not anytime soon.

Boosibri · February 17, 2015 2:24AM

When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order?

GeorgeKellogg · February 17, 2015 2:33AM

I think that most serious collectors give more weight to their informed opinion of the coin than they do to the holder and/or grade -- if it has been certified. I prefer PCGS-certified coins because they are more accepted in the marketplace -- for my core numismatic specialty (Dahlonega gold coins). Having said that, I have also purchased Dahlonega pieces raw and in 'off-brand' holders -- which are now holdered by PCGS. I have also rejected Dahlonega coins in PCGS holders -- which didn't have 'my look' or which I felt were over-priced.

SeattleSlammer · February 17, 2015 2:36AM

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir.

Lakesammman · February 17, 2015 2:38AM

I have to admit that, when it comes to samples and collectible holders, I could care less about the quality of the coin.

BAJJERFAN · February 17, 2015 2:39AM

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

Yep, how can one poster claim to be speaking for the majority of collectors?

telephoto1 · February 17, 2015 2:45AM

Which would you pay more for, a $220,000 Porsche with no warranty, or one with a 5yr/50k warranty?

Ask copper collectors how good the "warranty" is.

topstuf · February 17, 2015 2:49AM

I can remember when building my Dansco Type Set how other collectors and "coin pals" used to compare and ooh and aah over such stuff as ....design... Maybe even the history of content reductions and contemporary objections to certain design features (bare breasts....eek) and such and etc.

We'd even just look at the coins and come up with such garbage as. "Hey, neat." or "Did you see the one advertised at.......?"

Then came slabs.

Suddenly, EVERYTHING turned to "grade/price/value"

No more the pages of history unfolding before your eyes in the living room. Nope. Off to the SDB with the plastic and reading the concerns of WHICH GRADING COMPANY to use.

Coins? Pfffffttttt...

WHAT'S THE LABEL SAY ????

UncleJoe · February 17, 2015 2:49AM

" When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic? "

IMO the majority of collectors already buy the coin and not just the plastic!

Yes, I almost exclusively purchase PCGS CAC coins. I have limited time and/or attention to spend on my collection. Over the years I have learned that much less than 1% of raw coins meet my criteria for purchase (not much more for NGC coins), less than 10% of PCGS coins meet my criteria for purchase and about 25% of PCGS CAC coins meet my criteria for purchase. I spend my limited time looking at the coins that have the greatest possibility of a purchase namely PCGS CAC. I am not interested nor do I need to make a "score". The point is that even though I concentrate on PCGS CAC coins, I still look at the coin and it must meet my criteria for purchase.

Joe.

ebaybuyer · February 17, 2015 3:07AM

ive heard the copper warranty doesn't shine like a new penny.

winky · February 17, 2015 3:11AM

Registry sets have a lot to do with this.

ColonelJessup · February 17, 2015 3:18AM

I was present in the room when that 1877 1c went off. I use it as an example of totally ethical bidding that many have, in the past, misconstrued.

Tony Terranova is bidding as an floor agent and the hammer dropped at 50K. Harvey (IIRC) says "$50,000 TO # 123?"

The room is shaking their collective heads

and then Tony replies "No, make that $72.5K to # 500"

The room gasps.

OK, conspiracy theorists... on your mark.... get set..... whoa.........

Tony riposts.... "I've got two bidders, one at $70K and one higher. Just write it down". . . .

Beyond that, I side with those who think the vast majority of coin collectors couldn't give a hoot about what slabbing does or means.

EVillageProwler · February 17, 2015 3:19AM

I wish to point out on the world side, we routinely buy raw, or even NGC. In that market, it is important that we assess the coin because sure as heck we can't rely on the US TPG's to know each and every nuance of each and every series.

My US stuff is slabbed, and all pre-CAC (in fact, all are before + grades too). My Anglo-Saxon coins are raw (it's a lot of fun to write your own insert). My other world coins are mostly slabbed by a reputable US TPG, but most were first bought raw. (The plastic serves two purposes: a store of base value, and physical protection.)

The caveat to the OP's intent is that noobs and those who are unable to see lots and lots and lots of coins (too busy, or cannot travel due to an infirmity) won't have the requisite education to not rely on the TPG crutch.

EVP

DMWJR · February 17, 2015 3:45AM

I wish I had learned to properly grade earlier than I did. There was a period where I relied too much on the holder.

Baley · February 17, 2015 3:52AM

<< I think that most serious collectors give more weight to their informed opinion of the coin than they do to the holder and/or grade -- if it has been certified. I prefer PCGS-certified coins because they are more accepted in the marketplace -- for my core numismatic specialty (Dahlonega gold coins). Having said that, I have also purchased Dahlonega pieces raw and in 'off-brand' holders -- which are now holdered by PCGS. I have also rejected Dahlonega coins in PCGS holders -- which didn't have 'my look' or which I felt were over-priced. >>

This is my approach with early quarters and halves, I don't know about "the majority" but there aren't relatively that many of these coins in the first place and, like the southern gold, are prone to problems in the mid circulated grades, each coin is unique. Once I started realizing that the TPG grade is just one essentially value appraisal "opinion" and not a fact, and that opinions vary, it made a lot more sense.

I also agree with a sentiment expressed in this and other thread about gradeflation, the TPGs job seems to be increasingly to "rank" the highest graded coins, the condition census coins, and if a better one shows up than one they've graded MSXX, then it makes sense to grade this one MSXX+, or MS(XX+1), or even, MS(XX+1or 2)+ or star and then get some stickers on it too for good measure.

it's the way the hobby/industry is going, although I've always cracked them and enjoyed them raw, if they're nice coins, they'll only benefit from gradeflation once eventually graded if sent in "right"

ebaybuyer · February 17, 2015 4:10AM

I don't believe anyone that uses this cliché feel they are of a higher order than anyone else, they do perhaps recognize the downfalls of one not being able to grade for one's self and relying heavily on what the slab says

bcdeluxe · February 17, 2015 5:26AM

<< ...then it makes sense to grade this one MSXX+, or MS(XX+1), or even, MS(XX+1or 2)+ or star and then get some stickers on it too for good measure. >>

Funny, but I'm afraid it's also pretty accurate.

Justacommeman · February 17, 2015 5:32AM

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

I'm with you boys

MJ

Justacommeman · February 17, 2015 5:34AM

<< I wish I had learned to properly grade earlier than I did. There was a period where I relied too much on the holder. >>

Learn to grade by what standards exactly? Serious question

Mark

roadrunner · February 17, 2015 5:41AM

<< ....IMO the majority of collectors already buy the coin and not just the plastic!

Yes, I almost exclusively purchase PCGS CAC coins. I have limited time and/or attention to spend on my collection. Over the years I have learned that much less than 1% of raw coins meet my criteria for purchase (not much more for NGC coins), less than 10% of PCGS coins meet my criteria for purchase and about 25% of PCGS CAC coins meet my criteria for purchase. I spend my limited time looking at the coins that have the greatest possibility of a purchase namely PCGS CAC. I am not interested nor do I need to make a "score". The point is that even though I concentrate on PCGS CAC coins, I still look at the coin and it must meet my criteria for purchase. Joe. >>

As I read the above, it would seem that you are "leaning" heavily on the plastic + sticker for the majority of your purchases. Nothing wrong with that all. If collectors really only bought the coin and not the holder, they should be able to cover the grade before they look at any coin for sale, ask the price, and then decide if they want to buy it or not. The assigned grade or sticker "should" have no bearing on anything. Just my 2c.

A novice to grading simply deducts a point or two from PCGS prices when buying an NGC coins..........that's news to me. No wonder the market has so many grading/pricing concerns. Maybe I should revert back to being a novice in order to get better deals?

grip · February 17, 2015 5:43AM

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

I agree!

DMWJR · February 17, 2015 5:44AM

<< 

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

I'm with you boys

MJ >>

I don't really understand what you agenda you guys have, but there have been more posts than usual lamenting gradeflation, undergraded/overgraded coins. The coins are what they are, and don't change with the holder. If you think this discussion in anyway was snobby, than you were mistaken.

MrEureka · February 17, 2015 6:21AM

Perhaps it's best to sum it up briefly and move on. Here's how I would put it:

1. Knowledge and experience are a big advantage.

2. TPG's can be useful but they are not perfect.

3. Ignore the above two points at your own risk.

I trust that none of this is much of a surprise to anyone here.

DMWJR · February 17, 2015 8:07AM

<< Perhaps it's best to sum it up briefly and move on. Here's how I would put it:

1. Knowledge and experience are a big advantage.

2. TPG's can be useful but they are not perfect.

3. Ignore the above two points at your own risk.

I trust that none of this is much of a surprise to anyone here. >>

Perfectly stated and the most useful information ever published concisely on the boards.

Signing off,

Justacommeman · February 17, 2015 8:18AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

I'm with you boys

MJ >>

I don't really understand what you agenda you guys have, but there have been more posts than usual lamenting gradeflation, undergraded/overgraded coins. The coins are what they are, and don't change with the holder. If you think this discussion in anyway was snobby, than you were mistaken. >>

Zero agenda. I think you speak about a small percentage of collectors. I believe overgraded coins the past few years have been punished within the clothes they wear at the cash register. I also cite Andy's first post. He beat me to it. I cite Ricks post as well to the magnitude. I cite the others as your post coming off a little self serving. We probably got that wrong.

Mark

Kove · February 17, 2015 8:54AM

I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both.

Say you have a coin that XYZ price guide says is worth $10,000 in a certain grade. How many people are going to walk up to a dealer and pay $10,000 for a raw coin in a flip, even if they agree with the dealer's grade? Very few people. Everyone will discount the coin by some amount, accounting for all the risks of getting the coin into a problem-free PCGS holder at the stated grade. Sure, someone will buy a raw $100 coin, but not a coin of any real value.

Everyone who has submitted any significant number of coins for grading knows about the very real downside risks...the grade that comes in one point too low, or the unforeseen "cleaned" or "altered" designation. It happens to everyone, experts included.

The price you're paying for the plastic--not the coin--is the difference between the price you'd buy the coin for raw (not covering up the grade on a holder, but raw in a flip using only your grading skill) vs. the price you're willing to pay for the coin in PCGS plastic. It's a very real premium, and EVERYONE pays it.

When you buy a coin in PCGS plastic, you're paying a certain amount for the plastic, because a fair amount of downside unforeseen risk has been eliminated for you already.

originalisbest · February 17, 2015 9:38AM

Fortunately, since I'm just a poor collector of "dreck" and "widgets" by this board's measure of standards (even including the "widget" I once carefully saved up a year and a half for) none of my collection appears to be of any great import. Thus, I can cheerfully not G.A.R.A. Hooray for me!

Andy's post is quite accurate. However, I'm at a loss to make much sense of the OP's. Perhaps it was composed during happy hour?

DMWJR · February 17, 2015 9:42AM

<< I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both. >>

Exactly my point friend.

Don't be a pretender and post on this thread. This is a serious discussion.

originalisbest · February 17, 2015 9:48AM

<< 

<< I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both. >>

Exactly my point friend.

Don't be a pretender and post on this thread. This is a serious discussion. >>

Okayyyy... it's a "serious discussion" without end, that's been brought up before, and beaten near to death. Andy summarized it as well as anyone could. Thread satisfactorily completed, AFAIC. You continue the discussion as you see fit; knock yerself out.

Kove · February 17, 2015 10:24AM

Duplicate

Kove · February 17, 2015 10:27AM

<< 

<< I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both. >>

Exactly my point friend.

Don't be a pretender and post on this thread. This is a serious discussion. >>

Now about that comment above about such people thinking they belong to a "higher order"...

silvergoldnut · February 17, 2015 10:42AM

It was a nice read but unless we put just a melt value to all coins nothing is going to change. Big $$$ is to be had between grades so the crack out game will continue. Not saying I agree just saying it is how it is.

I think pcgs does for the most part a good job , but I also think it has to do with the grader you get at the time your coin is in front of them. I have crossed ngc and anacas coins to pcgs with no problem and couple even did better .

It's funny I see people on here mock the first strike but I never see a dealer not use it to sell a coin, a lot laughed with the green bean from CAC but people tend to look for them . Coin collecting has changed , the old days are gone , type collecting is in, set collecting is out .

Plastic is the new coin , lol and if you think I'm wrong how many post do we see about the doily holders!!!

coinguy1989 · February 17, 2015 2:07PM

<< I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both.

Say you have a coin that XYZ price guide says is worth $10,000 in a certain grade. How many people are going to walk up to a dealer and pay $10,000 for a raw coin in a flip, even if they agree with the dealer's grade? Very few people. Everyone will discount the coin by some amount, accounting for all the risks of getting the coin into a problem-free PCGS holder at the stated grade. Sure, someone will buy a raw $100 coin, but not a coin of any real value. >>

The vast majority of collectors are not purchasing five figure coins period. And I do think that a good number of those that do would have no problem with buying a raw coin at that level given that most likely either (1) know what they are doing or (2) can hire an expert to look at it for them. If a substantial portion of the coin's value is in the plastic, caveat emptor!

dragon · February 17, 2015 3:53PM

I nearly always buy the coin and not the plastic, because in my view the holder is just a convenient way to transport the coin home without damaging it until I can get it into a nice Capital holder in most cases. Hence here's a part of my tag collection....

Type2 · February 17, 2015 4:52PM

<< I've always found the "buy the coin, not the holder" statement misleading. If you buy a coin in plastic, you're paying for both.

Say you have a coin that XYZ price guide says is worth $10,000 in a certain grade. How many people are going to walk up to a dealer and pay $10,000 for a raw coin in a flip, even if they agree with the dealer's grade? Very few people. Everyone will discount the coin by some amount, accounting for all the risks of getting the coin into a problem-free PCGS holder at the stated grade. Sure, someone will buy a raw $100 coin, but not a coin of any real value.

Everyone who has submitted any significant number of coins for grading knows about the very real downside risks...the grade that comes in one point too low, or the unforeseen "cleaned" or "altered" designation. It happens to everyone, experts included.

The price you're paying for the plastic--not the coin--is the difference between the price you'd buy the coin for raw (not covering up the grade on a holder, but raw in a flip using only your grading skill) vs. the price you're willing to pay for the coin in PCGS plastic. It's a very real premium, and EVERYONE pays it.

When you buy a coin in PCGS plastic, you're paying a certain amount for the plastic, because a fair amount of downside unforeseen risk has been eliminated for you already. >>

There is a flip side to this how many will pass on a $10,000 coin in a flip becuse they can't grade?

Barberian · February 17, 2015 6:02PM

<< 

<< When will people stop repeating this cliche as if it means they belong to some higher order? >>

That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank you Sir. >>

Some people (dealers) say this because they are really crappy graders or deliberately overgrade the coins they sell. They get all huffy and puffy when one confronts them with current grading standards as exemplified by properly graded coins in TPG holders.

bsides · February 17, 2015 6:44PM

hi dragon! That is a cool collection

No doubt you'd be in the minority but that is a brilliant way to keep and enjoy a collection. I guess it's only possible if you have a long term collection.

If I collected coins I'd consider doing the same thing. With banknotes, the PMG holder is cool with me

CoinZip · February 17, 2015 7:26PM

The majority of the coins I sell are raw.... only about 5-10% of my inventory is graded by a third party grader.

I think its safe to say there are way more raw coins bought and sold at coin shows than there are coins bought and sold that are graded by a third party.

When are the majority of collectors going to buy the coin and not just the plastic?

Comments

Leave a Comment