Stolen Coin Alert

nencoin · February 12, 2015 6:16AM

This was sent by:

David Finkelstein
Member Professional Numismatists Guild

Stolen Coin Report

Danny Smith of Macon, Georgia, eBay user bearmanshunt83, purchased a 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent, with a CAC Green sticker, from me on eBay on December 28, 2014. The PCGS certification number is 2427.65/25358867. He paid via PayPal. The coin was sent USPS Priority Mail / Signature Confirmation. Danny Smith signed for the item on December 31, 2014. He left me a negative feedback on eBay stating that he received a 1972 Lincoln Cent instead. On January 13, 2105 Danny Smith opened a chargeback case with his credit card company. He avoided using the eBay and PayPal systems. The credit card company opened a chargeback with PayPal. The credit card company approved the chargeback on February 12, 2015. Also on February 12, PayPal removed from my PayPal account the amount that Danny Smith initially paid. Not only was Danny Smith refunded his purchase price, he has now stolen my coin.

Please broadcast this. If Danny Smith attempts to sell this coin, please contact the local police department and me. My contact information is provided below.

Here are the specifics:

Coin: 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent - CAC Green Sticker
PCGS certification number: 2427.65/25358867
eBay item id: 390986868278
USPS tracking number: 9410809699939536669562
Purchaser: Danny Smith,

ThePennyLady · February 12, 2015 6:29AM

The stolen coin is very distinctive in that it has an unusual pattern of woodgrain toning on the obverse, so it should be easy to spot should you come across it.

keyman64 · February 12, 2015 6:32AM

This is terrible!
I have a feeling that coin has already been cracked out.

Unknown · February 12, 2015 6:32AM

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ms70 · February 12, 2015 6:52AM

Did you leave feedback already? If not give him a false positive.

You need to follow this up with your local police.

acloco · February 12, 2015 6:54AM

Have you called the police department in his hometown yet?

Have you contacted the shipping carrier yet?

puffer · February 12, 2015 7:05AM

That is pretty outrageous. If ebay/paypal do not put an end to frauds like this sellers will lose faith in the system. Dealers with sterling reputations should not be blackened by criminal activity like this.

derryb · February 12, 2015 7:21AM

bearmanshunt83 blocked

PTVETTER · February 12, 2015 7:27AM

Another eBay story!

Now I understand why I don't sell on eBay

EagleEye · February 12, 2015 7:29AM

Blocked

DoubleEagle59 · February 12, 2015 8:18AM

This buyer only had a feedback rating of (5) on Ebay.

I'm not faulting the seller, but I wouldn't have sold a coin of this value to a buyer of only '5' feedbacks.

DoubleEagle59 · February 12, 2015 8:19AM

This buyer only had a feedback rating of (5) on Ebay.

I'm not faulting the seller, but I wouldn't have sold a coin of this value to a buyer of only '5' feedbacks.

nencoin · February 12, 2015 8:35AM

<< This buyer only had a feedback rating of (5) on Ebay.

I'm not faulting the seller, but I wouldn't have sold a coin of this value to a buyer of only '5' feedbacks. >>

Well, you don't really have a choice. You can't prevent buyers with a feedback of five (or even zero) from bidding on your auctions. If they buy and pay with a Confirmed Address, you have to ship the coin. Not doing so gives strikes against your account. Sure, in this case, the seller would rather a strike over a lost coin. But the seller followed the rules and the buyer took advantage of the anti-seller system that eBay has implemented over the years.

silverpop · February 12, 2015 8:51AM

another person gets scammed on SCAMBAY nothing unusual

winky · February 12, 2015 10:00AM

How horrible is this. I hope it turns up but probably out of holder and in somebody's collection without a holder. Very sad.

Barberian · February 12, 2015 11:01AM

If Paypal is going to ignore signature confirmation, what's to stop people from pulling the exact same scam?

ms70 · February 12, 2015 11:29AM

Blocked isn't good enough, he should have a hand cut off in the town square.

I hope this isn't over.

ScarsdaleCoin · February 12, 2015 11:29AM

any chance of a packaging mixup ? any chance of a postal switch? other than that .....this is why sellers cant sell on ebay... however I know a few sellers have video of packaging and ebay has accepted that in the past...... makes you wonder...too bad thats a heck of a loss

Raufus · February 12, 2015 11:36AM

<< That is pretty outrageous. If ebay/paypal do not put an end to frauds like this sellers will lose faith in the system. Dealers with sterling reputations should not be blackened by criminal activity like this. >>

Very well stated and spot on.

So sorry to hear of this!

Blocked of course.

segoja · February 12, 2015 11:37AM

Simply amazing this is allowed to happen.

Raufus · February 12, 2015 11:39AM

<< any chance of a packaging mixup ? any chance of a postal switch? other than that .....this is why sellers cant sell on ebay... however I know a few sellers have video of packaging and ebay has accepted that in the past...... makes you wonder...too bad thats a heck of a loss >>

I have thought about doing this. However, could they not just say "so, right after the video was taken anything could have been done"?

Moldnut · February 12, 2015 11:47AM

Can't say I'm a big fan of the seller but that really stinks. Hope he gets his coin or money back.

CoinZip · February 12, 2015 12:07PM

Its also Mail Fraud and should be reported to the postal inspectors.....

streeter · February 12, 2015 12:11PM

Eventually this coin will turn up. The seller and his heirs will never forget.

I would suggest reporting it to many sites similar to this site,

http://www.artloss.com/en

Dave99B · February 12, 2015 12:37PM

That's an absolute shame ... a few bad apples can really destroy a marketplace.

Dave

roadrunner · February 12, 2015 1:13PM

<< Its also Mail Fraud and should be reported to the postal inspectors..... >>

It sure is. But for a single transaction from one party they often don't care. The USPS will have you file a govt internet crime report....which may never get looked at again. This occurred from a buyer in Macon, Georgia. If it follows the fraud that was conducted on me out of Union City, GA (Atlanta suburb), then don't expect much help from local GA police, AG's, Ebay, etc. Sorry this happened to you. Wasn't it just 2 weeks ago all the Ebayists were saying how safe it is today with Paypal. Yeah right. Georgia seems to be a good state to conduct internet/US mail fraud.

lordmarcovan · February 12, 2015 1:20PM

Not only robbed, but left a negative feedback by the thief. Insult to injury.

Cubby · February 12, 2015 1:25PM

That's horrible...

Davideo · February 12, 2015 1:35PM

It seems that the major screwup was the credit card company issuing the chargeback. At that point I don't think PayPal or eBay could really do anything. I sell a large number of non-coin things, not on eBay, but often using PayPal. I had a fraudster claim that they never received an item even though we had their signature from the FedEx delivery. They opened a dispute with their credit card. PayPal contacted me to get all the information and on the phone told me that they thought I was in the right and was providing this recommendation as well as the information to the credit card company. Credit card company sided with the buyer and the buyer got a free item.

Though if I believe half of what I read about eBay on this forum, I should be skeptical of myself because fraud can only occur on eBay...

C0INB0Y · February 12, 2015 1:52PM

I feel for you nencoi, I am so sickened and sorry this happened to you.

===========

For what it is worth for everyone in the future, I went thru almost the same experience, however I intercepted my coin before it was delivered and got it back before I was scammed out of it and the payment.

The solution to sending high value coins is maintain the ability to recall the package en-route if something feels screwy.

NEVER send anything by Express overnight. You must send everything of high value with at least "Restricted Delivery" which means it can ONLY be delivered to the person on the package. No other person is allowed to sign for the package, adult or otherwise, This feature is good for First Class boxes, Priority Mail and Registered.

**You can not get "Restricted Delivery" with Express Mail !!**

I got lucky here as I did not send Express Mail, despite the request from the Seller who had asked to speed up delivery. This thread is a documentation of how to at least have a fighting chance when sending a higher valued coin

Also from the US Post Office:

4.2.3 Ineligible Matter The following types of mail may not be insured:

a. Parcels containing matter offered for sale, addressed to prospective purchasers who have not ordered or authorized their sending. If such matter is mailed, payment is not made for loss, rifling, or damage.

b. Nonmailable matter.

c. Articles so fragile that they cannot be carried safely in the mail regardless of packaging.

d. Articles not adequately prepared to withstand normal handling in the mail. As a rule, any mailable package should be insurable.

e. Mail not bearing the complete names and addresses of the sender and addressee.

f. Standard Mail letters, flats, and NFMs.

g. Matter mailed at First-Class Mail prices (including Priority Mail) that consists of items described in 123.3.0, Content Standards for Priority Mail; 133.3.0, Content Standards; 233.2.0, Content Standards for First-Class Mail Letters; 333.2.0, Content Standards for First-Class Mail Flats; and 433.2.0, Content Standards for First-Class Mail Parcels, and required to be mailed at First-Class Mail prices.

bestday · February 12, 2015 2:21PM

<< It seems that the major screwup was the credit card company issuing the chargeback. At that point I don't think PayPal or eBay could really do anything. I sell a large number of non-coin things, not on eBay, but often using PayPal. I had a fraudster claim that they never received an item even though we had their signature from the FedEx delivery. They opened a dispute with their credit card. PayPal contacted me to get all the information and on the phone told me that they thought I was in the right and was providing this recommendation as well as the information to the credit card company. Credit card company sided with the buyer and the buyer got a free item.

Though if I believe half of what I read about eBay on this forum, I should be skeptical of myself because fraud can only occur on eBay... >>

Once a case is opened with a CC company ...ebay closes their case ...they no longer have any control .... over $ 3,000 coin down the toilet what =====!

derryb · February 12, 2015 3:24PM

This is why paypal should allow sellers to opt out of accepting credit card payments from buyers.

puffer · February 12, 2015 7:45PM

There are still many legal options. I would initiate a "theft by deception" lawsuit in the district of the perpetrator. I did so against a fraudster in another state for a $3500 case. He did not show at the hearing which was an open and shut case. I got the judgment against him which hopefully stays on his record forever. In the PNG's member case hopefully they have lots of legal options for their members. Plus they have the weight of an organization with letters of reference that will vouch for his integrity that he has never been involved in a fraud and would never pull such a switch. They could have a private eye do a thorough background search on the perpetrator which should be telling.

SAM5969 · February 12, 2015 9:36PM

To those of you that don't know how to read
This did not happen to NEN Coin
It happened to David Finkelstein

ricko · February 12, 2015 10:34PM

Such a shame.... the con artists are always working to scam honest people..... although ebay is rife with these crooks, they are everywhere...Cheers, RickO

vplite99 · February 12, 2015 10:35PM

I know from personal experience the cops will do nothing. Its his word against yours. There is not enough other evidence to support a criminal charge.

If there is evidence that he sells it, or gets caught trying to reholder it, that might make the federal criminal case.

Good luck and sorry for your loss.

panexpoguy · February 13, 2015 1:56AM

I was thinking. What if TPG and CAC offered a service of changing the serach results on cert #'s in cases like this so they they came back with the results 'Reported Stolen'. Might just serve to have the coin broken out of holder even sooner....just thinking aloud.

Davideo · February 13, 2015 2:38AM

<< This is why paypal should allow sellers to opt out of accepting credit card payments from buyers. >>

Interesting thought, though I can't see PayPal doing anything that limits their own usage.

Goldbully · February 13, 2015 2:51AM

Bigger image from eBay

eBay Link

Goldbully · February 13, 2015 2:52AM

double post

segoja · February 13, 2015 3:31AM

<< I was thinking. What if TPG and CAC offered a service of changing the serach results on cert #'s in cases like this so they they came back with the results 'Reported Stolen'. Might just serve to have the coin broken out of holder even sooner....just thinking aloud. >>

Excellent idea. You point out the risk.....maybe it could be loaded in as "call xxx-xxx-xxxx", vs reported stolen. That way a casual person might just call. Probably hard to get the coin back once they are told the truth, but you just might have the persons name.

In our grading business (QA Check), I'd be happy to help provide this service, but it would require some programming changes and cost. It would also add costs dealing with the phone calls etc.

It could be done, but the costs would have to get absorbed somewhere.

johnny9434 · February 13, 2015 4:15AM

what a bummer. thats a nice coin to

Unknown · February 13, 2015 5:41AM

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Coin Finder · February 13, 2015 6:00AM

Great post Professor!!

Unknown · February 13, 2015 7:25AM

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FanOfGoldCoins · February 13, 2015 7:41AM

It's your word against his. Guess who will win with the credit card company? Scams like this are one reason why I always a make a video recording when a package is sealed or opened, even if the seller or buyer is highly reputable (honest mistakes do happen). It's a simple precaution that has saved me a ton of grief.

pennyannie · February 13, 2015 7:52AM

<< There are still many legal options. I would initiate a "theft by deception" lawsuit in the district of the perpetrator. I did so against a fraudster in another state for a $3500 case. He did not show at the hearing which was an open and shut case. I got the judgment against him which hopefully stays on his record forever. In the PNG's member case hopefully they have lots of legal options for their members. Plus they have the weight of an organization with letters of reference that will vouch for his integrity that he has never been involved in a fraud and would never pull such a switch. They could have a private eye do a thorough background search on the perpetrator which should be telling. >>

I quit filing judgements years ago on evictions, the judgements were worthless and uncollectable. It sucks but it is the cost of doing business. The rest of us pay for the lousy few. I just sold a 1500 dollar rifle scope on ebay and I flip flopped for days deciding if it was worth the gamble.

I had a company I used a while back charge my credit card for services they did not provide recently. I actually had trouble getting the charge removed. The credit card company could never explain how they got the charge thru. My credit card company had issued me a new card due to a computer hack or something similar after I originally used the company that charged my card.

puffer · February 13, 2015 8:12AM

Defeatest reasoning about the "cost of doing business" to accept fraud as inevitable is inexcusable. People ripped off need to take action against criminals to blacken their names. I have dealt with many people who have no morals or compass except what they can rip-off from others and need to be stopped.

410a · February 13, 2015 8:14AM

I have installed Air Conditioning equipment in PRINCETON, NJ accepted a check and the very next day the home owner is in Florida, the property is sold and I am holding a bad check. It's a civil matter the Police tell me although they will issue a warrant and the Police go onto say "we will probably not extradite the bit^c(h" So, good luck. I say well, I will take back my equipment and the Police say "You do and you will be arrested it's not the new owners fault" I call my brother the Convience Store owner who can have you arrested for ripping off a candy bar and a stag magazine or $30 worth of gasoline and he says "THEY CAN'T DO THAT" I say; Yeah, yeah, they can do that (sigh) and I don't feel like arguing why they can rip me off. It's all Wild wild west un-civil law if you ask me.

p.s. my check's in the thousands and this happened seven years ago.

puffer · February 13, 2015 8:21AM

Use creative "solutions" for sinister sly crooks. There are many websites to help people fight fraud.

dbldie55 · February 13, 2015 9:02AM

Did the buyer ever contact the seller? It looks like the first contact was a negative feedback. Did they return the "switched coin"? Hard to have any positive thoughts about the buyer if they made no attempt to have the situation corrected.

Stolen Coin Alert

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