<< <i>In every case, PayPal will not dispute the chargeback, they will simply default and then take the $ from the seller's account. >>
Paypal does dispute the chargeback on behalf of the seller providing info such as proof of delivery, etc. However, Paypal does not cover CC chargeback losses to the seller. The decision of the CC company is the final say.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Even with a merchant account, if you do not have a signed receipt, you will still lose any chargeback. Happened to us more than once. Risk of doing business but it really sucks and nothing you can do. I have faxed copies of the receipt and had the customer sign it and fax it back, but I never had to use that in a chargeback. Not sure if it would work.
<< <i>Any point in contacting the slimeball's cc company, and asking to speak with their fraud department about him? >>
And how do you get the slime ball's cc info???? Not if he used paypal.....that's part of their gig....we protect you the buyer by never disclosing your information to the seller....read, this is a good venue for fraud.
<< <i>Defeatest reasoning about the "cost of doing business" to accept fraud as inevitable is inexcusable. People ripped off need to take action against criminals to blacken their names. I have dealt with many people who have no morals or compass except what they can rip-off from others and need to be stopped. >>
Most people don't have a clue about the background/s of people they do business with and probably wouldn't bother to check if they could.
David Finkelstein Member Professional Numismatists Guild
Stolen Coin Report
Danny Smith of Macon, Georgia, eBay user bearmanshunt83, purchased a 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent, with a CAC Green sticker, from me on eBay on December 28, 2014. The PCGS certification number is 2427.65/25358867. He paid via PayPal. The coin was sent USPS Priority Mail / Signature Confirmation. Danny Smith signed for the item on December 31, 2014. He left me a negative feedback on eBay stating that he received a 1972 Lincoln Cent instead. On January 13, 2105 Danny Smith opened a chargeback case with his credit card company. He avoided using the eBay and PayPal systems. The credit card company opened a chargeback with PayPal. The credit card company approved the chargeback on February 12, 2015. Also on February 12, PayPal removed from my PayPal account the amount that Danny Smith initially paid. Not only was Danny Smith refunded his purchase price, he has now stolen my coin.
Please broadcast this. If Danny Smith attempts to sell this coin, please contact the local police department and me. My contact information is provided below.
Here are the specifics:
Coin: 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent - CAC Green Sticker PCGS certification number: 2427.65/25358867 eBay item id: 390986868278 USPS tracking number: 9410809699939536669562 Purchaser: Danny Smith, >>
PayPal did not "ignore sig confirm", it never came into play.
As I noted on a recent thread, PayPal is the "merchant of record" when a buyer uses a CC thru them, therefore the CC Co actually does the chargeback against PayPal. PayPal then simply deducts the money from the seller's account. (It's all in the contract we accepted in order to use PayPal.)
In every case, PayPal will not dispute the chargeback, they will simply default and then take the $ from the seller's account. ***Having a merchant's account with VISA/MC etc, will allow the seller to dispute any chargebacks***, (and I believe the rates are about the same @ around 2.5 to 3.5%)
As to filing reports with LE Agencies, Postal Inspectors, etc, there is a problem for the seller in that the buyer is already claiming (via the chargeback,) to be either the victim of a sloppy seller, or maybe... the victim of a federal crime.
Who would they believe... the guy who reports a 'thieving seller" (he says the seller used the US Mail to cheat him by sending a cheap substitute,) or the guy who says the buyer fraudulently filed a chargeback? As far as they are concerned, it's a civil matter, (in essence here, that's a matter dealt with by lawsuit between the individuals, and not a criminal charge against either.)
PayPal will probably one day face a class status lawsuit due to the ballooning number of cases like these, and undoubtedly they will 'point to the contract', "hem and haw", and then simply settle it in the hallway', (perhaps make a few changes in policy, perhaps not.) Naturally, the few lawyers involved will do quite well, but the real victims will each get but a paltry sum from the eventual settlement.
As was mentioned above, you can definitely file a civil suit against the buyer, although unless stated otherwise in your terms of sale, it will need to be filed in the county/city where the buyer lives. Oftentimes, as noted in the post above, the person will not show up, (not surprisingly,) and if this happens, so long as you can show they were 'served' the notice in a timely manner, you will win a default judgement, as simple matter of legal course.
With that judgement, you can seek to recover the funds. You can file a lien against most any personal property the buyer holds title to, (including their home, car, any land they may own, etc... basically anything that's owned via legal documentation, even bank accounts, as I understand it, in some areas.)
If you do file, (some states allow for filing in 'small claims' courts, up to $5,000) be SURE to file it using the person's FULL legal name, and include any and all nicknames, if possible, within the main part of your filing. These types of civil cases are public record, so anyone searching for evidence of a person's past "wrongdoings" (a future employer, a PI, bonding agency, etc,) will stand a better chance of finding the case, if you include all the ID info you can.
Can't think of anything else that might help, other than to 'second the motion' on the idea of PCGS starting a system to ID stolen/disputed coins via Cert #'s, in their database.
Good luck. >>
The CC Company is the arbiter of record. Any class action suits should be directed towards them. Would be interesting to find out how they came to their decisions other than just rubber stamping them. Of course it's in their best interest not to have to try to collect from the party filing the chargeback.
<< <i>I say well, I will take back my equipment and the Police say "You do and you will be arrested it's not the new owners fault" >>
Well, now the statue of limitations on this one is up, but the Police were categorically incorrect. It doesn't matter if it's not the "new owners' fault". They *don't* own it. It's stolen property.
<< <i> "Paypal does dispute the chargeback on behalf of the seller providing info such as proof of delivery, etc. However, Paypal does not cover CC chargeback losses to the seller. The decision of the CC company is the final say."
derryb,
If the dispute goes through PayPal, yes they ask for proof of delivery, etc, and will make a decision based on that proof. Many sellers have the funds restored after the POD is given to PayPal, (I personally have successfully retrieved funds via their "Seller Protection Program".)
But in the OP's first post it's noted that the 'buyer' bypassed ebay and PayPal completely, and went right to the CC Co.
This 'buyer' was familiar with the workings of PayPal in regard to chargebacks, and knew exactly what he was doing, it seems.
Unfortunately, it seems to have worked for him. >>
Paypal is the recipient of record for the CC funds (check your CC statement). After receiving the CC funds paypal then disperses them to the seller. In a CC dispute paypal is involved even if a claim was not filed with paypal. The two parties in a CC chargeback case are the CC company (the sender of the money representing the buyer) and paypal (the receiver of the money representing the seller). The CC company contacts the recipient of the funds (paypal) for information about the transaction. As stated earlier and in paypal's seller protection terms, paypal will fight the case on behalf of the seller but final decision lies with the CC company. Paypal will not absorb such losses and will recover the money from the seller.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Even with a merchant account, if you do not have a signed receipt, you will still lose any chargeback. Happened to us more than once. Risk of doing business but it really sucks and nothing you can do. I have faxed copies of the receipt and had the customer sign it and fax it back, but I never had to use that in a chargeback. Not sure if it would work. >>
Proof of delivery does no good when buyer claims "not as described." Also does no good if there is a claim of "unauthorized CC use." POD is only useful in proving delivery.
Note that for seller protection paypal and ebay require "online or physical documentation from a shipping company" that provides them with the required information. Hard copies of receipt are not required when they are available on-line for paypal or ebay to view.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
This case needs to be adjudicated in court. With all the weight of a 100% record of fulfilling their dealer obligations on the part of the seller with the complete track record of the buyer which a good private detective can dig out. In one person's word against another's, circumstantial evidence may be enough. At the least a highly publicized event should be enough to embarrass the buyer that his word is suspect.
<< <i> I quit filing judgements years ago on evictions, the judgements were worthless and uncollectable. It sucks but it is the cost of doing business. The rest of us pay for the lousy few. >>
Unfortunately I agree with Penny Annie. Anyone who has tried to use the legal system in cases like these knows that it is a waste of time and money. I suspect those shouting "sue the bstd" never have tried to have someone prosecuted or sued for something like this.
<< <i>"The CC Company is the arbiter of record. Any class action suits should be directed towards them."
Mr BAJJERFAN,
It's true the CC Co. is the arbiter, but it's PayPal that routinely, (apparently as matter of policy,) accepts the chargeback without challenge. The CC Co. has no control over PayPal's decisions or policies, and so long as they notify PayPal of the pending chargeback they have fulfilled their duty.
The CC Co. only arbitrates the dispute *because* PayPal is the de facto merchant.
The dispute, literally, is between the buyer of the coin and the seller of the coin, and *not* between the buyer and PayPal, yet PayPal chooses to do business in a way that actually circumvents the ability of the seller to dispute the chargeback.
It is *that policy* that needs to be challenged, in my opinion. >>
How does that old saying go sir? Poop always rolls downhill. The buyer files a chargeback thru his CC company who in turn TAKES if from PP. It is in PP's best interest to support you the seller so that the CC Company will give them their money back. If the CC Company finds for the buyer, then PP will have to recover their funds from the seller who could potentially walk away, leaving PP holding the bag. Don't you think that if it didn't matter, that PP would encourage the buyer to file a chargeback?
I don't believe in insoluble problems--only a lack of will to exert energy toward solving such issues. Hopefully PNG will do everything they can to resolve the case for the seller.
It would seem one should be extra aware of doing internet coin business with anyone within 100 miles of Atlanta. Do your due diligence before sending anything out. The scammers probably aren't coin experts and can be tripped up before you ship and/or send payment. And........Paypal is far from fool-proof.
<< <i>It would seem one should be extra aware of doing internet coin business with anyone within 100 miles of Atlanta. Do your due diligence before sending anything out. The scammers probably aren't coin experts and can be tripped up before you ship and/or send payment. And........Paypal is far from fool-proof. >>
Curious why you would say that about Atlanta? There are many cities or areas that are probably much worse!
What can PNG do? It's an organization that lacks any jurisdiction over this case. If the buyer filed a claim with PNG against David, then they would be involved as ALL PNG members agree to binding arbitration.
At the end of the day this is the sellers word against the buyers word. Everyone here knows the truth, but proving it is a different story.
That's why we have 24/7 video of all packages coming in and going out. Not even sure if that would help the case, but it certainly can't hurt.
The buyer can't continue to do this, otherwise it becomes a pattern and I'm not sure Paypal and the CC company would continue to side with the buyer.
Unfortunately for the seller, unless the coin shows up in his hands or can be traced back to him, I'm not sure much can be done.
<< <i>It would seem one should be extra aware of doing internet coin business with anyone within 100 miles of Atlanta. Do your due diligence before sending anything out. The scammers probably aren't coin experts and can be tripped up before you ship and/or send payment. And........Paypal is far from fool-proof. >>
Curious why you would say that about Atlanta? There are many cities or areas that are probably much worse! >>
You should be concerned about those other areas as well. I had a personal experience trying to get help from an Ebay coin fraud case in the Atlanta area (Union City - Fulton County). The local police were less than useless despite me providing them with everything they needed. There was also no effective govt/USPS internet crimes investigator in that area....at least that's what the Dallas, TX investigator told me. At least Heritage should feel good knowing they have someone looking out for them in Dallas.
<< <i>A character played by Charles Bronson. He "handled things". >>
OK Guess I look like a schmuck not knowing this. Unfortunately not a movie buff. My wife has tenitas (Ringing in the ears) and we can't go to the theater (it's too loud for her)
<< <i>A character played by Charles Bronson. He "handled things". >>
OK Guess I look like a schmuck not knowing this. Unfortunately not a movie buff. My wife has tenitas (Ringing in the ears) and we can't go to the theater (it's too loud for her)
Guess I'll know next time >>
Star of the Death Wish series. First one released in 1974.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Why not just make an insurance claim. If seller says he placed that certified coin in the envelope.....it must have been stolen/swapped by the mail carrier and thus an insurance claim would be the next move.
There are many options here; plus why didn't "Danny Smith" return the coin that he said he got? "He left me a negative feedback on eBay stating that he received a 1972 Lincoln Cent instead."
There are options with high value items to get verification as they are put in the package.
There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described.
<< <i>There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described. >>
Never heard of this, tell me more.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Why not just make an insurance claim. If seller says he placed that certified coin in the envelope.....it must have been stolen/swapped by the mail carrier and thus an insurance claim would be the next move. >>
How would you prove that? If he had proof of which coin he shipped it likely would be case closed.
<< <i>How does that old saying go sir? Poop always rolls downhill. The buyer files a chargeback thru his CC company who in turn TAKES if from PP. It is in PP's best interest to support you the seller so that the CC Company will give them their money back. If the CC Company finds for the buyer, then PP will have to recover their funds from the seller who could potentially walk away, leaving PP holding the bag. Don't you think that if it didn't matter, that PP would encourage the buyer to file a chargeback?
Mr BAJJERRFAN,
Good morning sir.
The old saying is that it, "...*flows* downhill", though I'm not well-versed in bathroom humor, so perhaps there are others as well.
It refers to an old joke about plumbing, as once told to me by my father in 1992, while I was hanging the ABS drain pipes from the floor joists of the house we were building for my then very young family: "There's only one thing you need to know to be a plumber..." (Then again, IIRC, if you exceed 1/4" drop per lineal foot of pipe, or fail to achieve 1/8" per, it won't flow through the pipes, regardless of the old sayings!)
The rest of that I had to consider at length, as it's tough to see where you're coming from with it. In every case I've ever heard of, PayPal does not involve itself in an actual CC chargeback, they simply recover the funds from the seller. It would require power of attorney, I imagine, in order for PayPal to advocate for the seller in a disputed chargeback.
Regardless, it would be very expensive for them to do so, if they could do so. Since they are part of a publicly-traded company, fiduciary responsibility comes into play, and any "customer appreciation value" they may glean from the seller by such assistance, would be immediately offset by the buyer's anger. That's a "wash" as they say, so the expense would not be justified in the eyes of the shareholders, to whom ebay/PayPal is legally beholden.
In the same vein, your last point/sentence is rendered moot, since to encourage a buyer to file a chargeback would alienate the seller, from whom PayPal takes their 'cut'.
At least from the viewpoint of their shareholders, PayPal has taken the correct path by not trying to intervene on behalf of either party.
The "credit" industry has been altered by the advent of money conduits such as PayPal... ("conduits"... hmmm... now why do I keep thinking of that ABS 'sewer' pipe while writing about PayPal? Coincidence I suppose.) I cannot imagine how this removal of, in essence, a "right of redress" during the dispute, can/will go on unchallenged indefinitely. >>
The rolls downhill refers to passing the buck/deflecting blame. More often than not, those at the top of the chain of command will try to deflect blame to those next/lower in line when something goes wrong. In this case derryb is correct as PP will side with the seller as there is no assurance that they can recover their funds from the seller. It's not rocket science.
There are two different parties fighting for their money here. PayPal is fighting with the credit card company, and the seller is fighting with PayPal. The seller has a seller protection agreement with PayPal, that if they follow all the PayPal rules, then they'll be eligible for seller protection. Unauthorized use claims were once in the fine print and not covered under seller protection, but that is no longer the case. The outcome of the seller's case with PayPal is not contingent on PayPal's success fighting the credit card company. Your seller protection is a deal you have with PayPal, and if you followed their rules and provide all the information they require you will be covered. They don't make this particularly automatic and easy and if you don't know your rights you have none. Initially a case will be opened, PayPal will remove the seller's money, and ask the seller for details of the transaction. Provide all the information they require but don't wait the default time for the PayPal system to process the case. Call them the following day, be nice, and have them look into the case and the information you sent. If what you sent covers you to be eligible for seller protection the rep will put the money back into your account and close your case with PayPal permanently. PayPal still has their fight with the credit card company but the outcome of their fight with the credit card company doesn't affect the deal you had with PayPal.
<< <i>There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described. >>
Never heard of this, tell me more. >>
You would have to check with your postmaster and see if they would be willing to do this with high value items.
<< <i>There are two different parties fighting for their money here. PayPal is fighting with the credit card company, and the seller is fighting with PayPal. The seller has a seller protection agreement with PayPal, that if they follow all the PayPal rules, then they'll be eligible for seller protection. Unauthorized use claims were once in the fine print and not covered under seller protection, but that is no longer the case. The outcome of the seller's case with PayPal is not contingent on PayPal's success fighting the credit card company. Your seller protection is a deal you have with PayPal, and if you followed their rules and provide all the information they require you will be covered. They don't make this particularly automatic and easy and if you don't know your rights you have none. Initially a case will be opened, PayPal will remove the seller's money, and ask the seller for details of the transaction. Provide all the information they require but don't wait the default time for the PayPal system to process the case. Call them the following day, be nice, and have them look into the case and the information you sent. If what you sent covers you to be eligible for seller protection the rep will put the money back into your account and close your case with PayPal permanently. PayPal still has their fight with the credit card company but the outcome of their fight with the credit card company doesn't affect the deal you had with PayPal. >>
PP can only take money from your account if there is money in there to take. I don't believe they can access your linked CC or bank accounts without your permission. At worst you will end up with a negative balance and all PP will have is an IOU. So it is still in PP's best interest to support sellers in a chargeback case. If they throw them under a bus, sellers will quit accepting PP.
Comments
<< <i>Blocked >>
+1 that guy needs to be prosecuted, he has only been on ebay since 10/14.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
The shocking thing was that he had done it many times (maybe 100+) before they went after him.
Maybe someone can find and link that thread, I can't find it.
<< <i>In every case, PayPal will not dispute the chargeback, they will simply default and then take the $ from the seller's account. >>
Paypal does dispute the chargeback on behalf of the seller providing info such as proof of delivery, etc. However, Paypal does not cover CC chargeback losses to the seller. The decision of the CC company is the final say.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Any point in contacting the slimeball's cc company, and asking to speak with their fraud department about him? >>
As long as they get their money, the CC Company couldn't care less if the recipient is fraudulent or not.
<< <i>Any point in contacting the slimeball's cc company, and asking to speak with their fraud department about him? >>
And how do you get the slime ball's cc info???? Not if he used paypal.....that's part of their gig....we protect you the buyer by never disclosing your information to the seller....read, this is a good venue for fraud.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
It just pi@@'s me off more because it's a coin instead of a iPhone or something.
Maybe it just makes me mad because I can relate more to the victim - and it could just as easily happen to me.
Looks like the seller chose to do business with just the 5 feedbacks
<< <i>People steal all the time and this is a simple con.
It just pi@@'s me off more because it's a coin instead of a iPhone or something.
Maybe it just makes me mad because I can relate more to the victim - and it could just as easily happen to me.
Which to me is a good reason not to sell on eBay.
<< <i>Defeatest reasoning about the "cost of doing business" to accept fraud as inevitable is inexcusable. People ripped off need to take action against criminals to blacken their names. I have dealt with many people who have no morals or compass except what they can rip-off from others and need to be stopped. >>
Most people don't have a clue about the background/s of people they do business with and probably wouldn't bother to check if they could.
<< <i>
<< <i>This was sent by:
David Finkelstein
Member Professional Numismatists Guild
Stolen Coin Report
Danny Smith of Macon, Georgia, eBay user bearmanshunt83, purchased a 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent, with a CAC Green sticker, from me on eBay on December 28, 2014. The PCGS certification number is 2427.65/25358867. He paid via PayPal. The coin was sent USPS Priority Mail / Signature Confirmation. Danny Smith signed for the item on December 31, 2014. He left me a negative feedback on eBay stating that he received a 1972 Lincoln Cent instead. On January 13, 2105 Danny Smith opened a chargeback case with his credit card company. He avoided using the eBay and PayPal systems. The credit card company opened a chargeback with PayPal. The credit card company approved the chargeback on February 12, 2015. Also on February 12, PayPal removed from my PayPal account the amount that Danny Smith initially paid. Not only was Danny Smith refunded his purchase price, he has now stolen my coin.
Please broadcast this. If Danny Smith attempts to sell this coin, please contact the local police department and me. My contact information is provided below.
Here are the specifics:
Coin: 1909-S VDB PCGS MS65 RB Lincoln Cent - CAC Green Sticker
PCGS certification number: 2427.65/25358867
eBay item id: 390986868278
USPS tracking number: 9410809699939536669562
Purchaser: Danny Smith, >>
PayPal did not "ignore sig confirm", it never came into play.
As I noted on a recent thread, PayPal is the "merchant of record" when a buyer uses a CC thru them, therefore the CC Co actually does the chargeback against PayPal. PayPal then simply deducts the money from the seller's account. (It's all in the contract we accepted in order to use PayPal.)
In every case, PayPal will not dispute the chargeback, they will simply default and then take the $ from the seller's account. ***Having a merchant's account with VISA/MC etc, will allow the seller to dispute any chargebacks***, (and I believe the rates are about the same @ around 2.5 to 3.5%)
As to filing reports with LE Agencies, Postal Inspectors, etc, there is a problem for the seller in that the buyer is already claiming (via the chargeback,) to be either the victim of a sloppy seller, or maybe... the victim of a federal crime.
Who would they believe... the guy who reports a 'thieving seller" (he says the seller used the US Mail to cheat him by sending a cheap substitute,) or the guy who says the buyer fraudulently filed a chargeback? As far as they are concerned, it's a civil matter, (in essence here, that's a matter dealt with by lawsuit between the individuals, and not a criminal charge against either.)
PayPal will probably one day face a class status lawsuit due to the ballooning number of cases like these, and undoubtedly they will 'point to the contract', "hem and haw", and then simply settle it in the hallway', (perhaps make a few changes in policy, perhaps not.) Naturally, the few lawyers involved will do quite well, but the real victims will each get but a paltry sum from the eventual settlement.
As was mentioned above, you can definitely file a civil suit against the buyer, although unless stated otherwise in your terms of sale, it will need to be filed in the county/city where the buyer lives. Oftentimes, as noted in the post above, the person will not show up, (not surprisingly,) and if this happens, so long as you can show they were 'served' the notice in a timely manner, you will win a default judgement, as simple matter of legal course.
With that judgement, you can seek to recover the funds. You can file a lien against most any personal property the buyer holds title to, (including their home, car, any land they may own, etc... basically anything that's owned via legal documentation, even bank accounts, as I understand it, in some areas.)
If you do file, (some states allow for filing in 'small claims' courts, up to $5,000) be SURE to file it using the person's FULL legal name, and include any and all nicknames, if possible, within the main part of your filing. These types of civil cases are public record, so anyone searching for evidence of a person's past "wrongdoings" (a future employer, a PI, bonding agency, etc,) will stand a better chance of finding the case, if you include all the ID info you can.
Can't think of anything else that might help, other than to 'second the motion' on the idea of PCGS starting a system to ID stolen/disputed coins via Cert #'s, in their database.
Good luck. >>
The CC Company is the arbiter of record. Any class action suits should be directed towards them. Would be interesting to find out how they came to their decisions other than just rubber stamping them. Of course it's in their best interest not to have to try to collect from the party filing the chargeback.
<< <i>I say well, I will take back my equipment and the Police say "You do and you will be arrested it's not the new owners fault" >>
Well, now the statue of limitations on this one is up, but the Police were categorically incorrect. It doesn't matter if it's not the "new owners' fault". They *don't* own it. It's stolen property.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i> "Paypal does dispute the chargeback on behalf of the seller providing info such as proof of delivery, etc. However, Paypal does not cover CC chargeback losses to the seller. The decision of the CC company is the final say."
derryb,
If the dispute goes through PayPal, yes they ask for proof of delivery, etc, and will make a decision based on that proof. Many sellers have the funds restored after the POD is given to PayPal, (I personally have successfully retrieved funds via their "Seller Protection Program".)
But in the OP's first post it's noted that the 'buyer' bypassed ebay and PayPal completely, and went right to the CC Co.
This 'buyer' was familiar with the workings of PayPal in regard to chargebacks, and knew exactly what he was doing, it seems.
Unfortunately, it seems to have worked for him. >>
Paypal is the recipient of record for the CC funds (check your CC statement). After receiving the CC funds paypal then disperses them to the seller. In a CC dispute paypal is involved even if a claim was not filed with paypal. The two parties in a CC chargeback case are the CC company (the sender of the money representing the buyer) and paypal (the receiver of the money representing the seller). The CC company contacts the recipient of the funds (paypal) for information about the transaction. As stated earlier and in paypal's seller protection terms, paypal will fight the case on behalf of the seller but final decision lies with the CC company. Paypal will not absorb such losses and will recover the money from the seller.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Even with a merchant account, if you do not have a signed receipt, you will still lose any chargeback. Happened to us more than once. Risk of doing business but it really sucks and nothing you can do. I have faxed copies of the receipt and had the customer sign it and fax it back, but I never had to use that in a chargeback. Not sure if it would work. >>
Proof of delivery does no good when buyer claims "not as described." Also does no good if there is a claim of "unauthorized CC use." POD is only useful in proving delivery.
Note that for seller protection paypal and ebay require "online or physical documentation from a shipping company" that provides them with the required information. Hard copies of receipt are not required when they are available on-line for paypal or ebay to view.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>
I quit filing judgements years ago on evictions, the judgements were worthless and uncollectable. It sucks but it is the cost of doing business. The rest of us pay for the lousy few. >>
Unfortunately I agree with Penny Annie. Anyone who has tried to use the legal system in cases like these knows that it is a waste of time and money. I suspect those shouting "sue the bstd" never have tried to have someone prosecuted or sued for something like this.
<< <i>"The CC Company is the arbiter of record. Any class action suits should be directed towards them."
Mr BAJJERFAN,
It's true the CC Co. is the arbiter, but it's PayPal that routinely, (apparently as matter of policy,) accepts the chargeback without challenge. The CC Co. has no control over PayPal's decisions or policies, and so long as they notify PayPal of the pending chargeback they have fulfilled their duty.
The CC Co. only arbitrates the dispute *because* PayPal is the de facto merchant.
The dispute, literally, is between the buyer of the coin and the seller of the coin, and *not* between the buyer and PayPal, yet PayPal chooses to do business in a way that actually circumvents the ability of the seller to dispute the chargeback.
It is *that policy* that needs to be challenged, in my opinion. >>
How does that old saying go sir? Poop always rolls downhill. The buyer files a chargeback thru his CC company who in turn TAKES if from PP. It is in PP's best interest to support you the seller so that the CC Company will give them their money back. If the CC Company finds for the buyer, then PP will have to recover their funds from the seller who could potentially walk away, leaving PP holding the bag. Don't you think that if it didn't matter, that PP would encourage the buyer to file a chargeback?
<< <i>It would seem one should be extra aware of doing internet coin business with anyone within 100 miles of Atlanta. Do your due diligence before sending anything out. The scammers probably aren't coin experts and can be tripped up before you ship and/or send payment. And........Paypal is far from fool-proof. >>
Curious why you would say that about Atlanta? There are many cities or areas that are probably much worse!
At the end of the day this is the sellers word against the buyers word. Everyone here knows the truth, but proving it is a different story.
That's why we have 24/7 video of all packages coming in and going out. Not even sure if that would help the case, but it certainly can't hurt.
The buyer can't continue to do this, otherwise it becomes a pattern and I'm not sure Paypal and the CC company would continue to side with the buyer.
Unfortunately for the seller, unless the coin shows up in his hands or can be traced back to him, I'm not sure much can be done.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>It would seem one should be extra aware of doing internet coin business with anyone within 100 miles of Atlanta. Do your due diligence before sending anything out. The scammers probably aren't coin experts and can be tripped up before you ship and/or send payment. And........Paypal is far from fool-proof. >>
Curious why you would say that about Atlanta? There are many cities or areas that are probably much worse! >>
You should be concerned about those other areas as well. I had a personal experience trying to get help from an Ebay coin fraud case in the Atlanta area (Union City - Fulton County). The local police were less than useless despite me providing them with everything they needed. There was also no effective govt/USPS internet crimes investigator in that area....at least that's what the Dallas, TX investigator told me. At least Heritage should feel good knowing they have someone looking out for them in Dallas.
Better yet, how do people get in touch with him?
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Lowlife buyers taking advantage---there should be "no refunds" on certified coins Period.
<< <i>A character played by Charles Bronson. He "handled things". >>
OK Guess I look like a schmuck not knowing this. Unfortunately not a movie buff. My wife has tenitas (Ringing in the ears) and we can't go to the theater (it's too loud for her)
Guess I'll know next time
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>A character played by Charles Bronson. He "handled things". >>
OK Guess I look like a schmuck not knowing this. Unfortunately not a movie buff. My wife has tenitas (Ringing in the ears) and we can't go to the theater (it's too loud for her)
Guess I'll know next time
Star of the Death Wish series. First one released in 1974.
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There are options with high value items to get verification as they are put in the package.
There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described.
<< <i>There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described. >>
Never heard of this, tell me more.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>This is exactly why I ceased selling on ebay
Lowlife buyers taking advantage---there should be "no refunds" on certified coins Period. >>
Until all sellers have decent pics, I disagree.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is exactly why I ceased selling on ebay
Lowlife buyers taking advantage---there should be "no refunds" on certified coins Period. >>
And the BST is apparently becoming a 'great place' to defraud people as well. >>
more the exception than the rule. the red flag was out.
<< <i>Why not just make an insurance claim. If seller says he placed that certified coin in the envelope.....it must have been stolen/swapped by the mail carrier and thus an insurance claim would be the next move. >>
How would you prove that? If he had proof of which coin he shipped it likely would be case closed.
<< <i>How does that old saying go sir? Poop always rolls downhill. The buyer files a chargeback thru his CC company who in turn TAKES if from PP. It is in PP's best interest to support you the seller so that the CC Company will give them their money back. If the CC Company finds for the buyer, then PP will have to recover their funds from the seller who could potentially walk away, leaving PP holding the bag. Don't you think that if it didn't matter, that PP would encourage the buyer to file a chargeback?
Mr BAJJERRFAN,
Good morning sir.
The old saying is that it, "...*flows* downhill", though I'm not well-versed in bathroom humor, so perhaps there are others as well.
It refers to an old joke about plumbing, as once told to me by my father in 1992, while I was hanging the ABS drain pipes from the floor joists of the house we were building for my then very young family: "There's only one thing you need to know to be a plumber..." (Then again, IIRC, if you exceed 1/4" drop per lineal foot of pipe, or fail to achieve 1/8" per, it won't flow through the pipes, regardless of the old sayings!)
The rest of that I had to consider at length, as it's tough to see where you're coming from with it. In every case I've ever heard of, PayPal does not involve itself in an actual CC chargeback, they simply recover the funds from the seller. It would require power of attorney, I imagine, in order for PayPal to advocate for the seller in a disputed chargeback.
Regardless, it would be very expensive for them to do so, if they could do so. Since they are part of a publicly-traded company, fiduciary responsibility comes into play, and any "customer appreciation value" they may glean from the seller by such assistance, would be immediately offset by the buyer's anger. That's a "wash" as they say, so the expense would not be justified in the eyes of the shareholders, to whom ebay/PayPal is legally beholden.
In the same vein, your last point/sentence is rendered moot, since to encourage a buyer to file a chargeback would alienate the seller, from whom PayPal takes their 'cut'.
At least from the viewpoint of their shareholders, PayPal has taken the correct path by not trying to intervene on behalf of either party.
The "credit" industry has been altered by the advent of money conduits such as PayPal... ("conduits"... hmmm... now why do I keep thinking of that ABS 'sewer' pipe while writing about PayPal? Coincidence I suppose.) I cannot imagine how this removal of, in essence, a "right of redress" during the dispute, can/will go on unchallenged indefinitely. >>
The rolls downhill refers to passing the buck/deflecting blame. More often than not, those at the top of the chain of command will try to deflect blame to those next/lower in line when something goes wrong. In this case derryb is correct as PP will side with the seller as there is no assurance that they can recover their funds from the seller. It's not rocket science.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a way at the post office where you can get some kind of certification of the item in the package - you literally pack the item in front of the postmaster and they certify what's in it similar to notarizing a document. On the receiving end, same thing, buyer opens package in front of the postmaster and signs off on the contents as described. >>
Never heard of this, tell me more. >>
You would have to check with your postmaster and see if they would be willing to do this with high value items.
<< <i>There are two different parties fighting for their money here. PayPal is fighting with the credit card company, and the seller is fighting with PayPal. The seller has a seller protection agreement with PayPal, that if they follow all the PayPal rules, then they'll be eligible for seller protection. Unauthorized use claims were once in the fine print and not covered under seller protection, but that is no longer the case. The outcome of the seller's case with PayPal is not contingent on PayPal's success fighting the credit card company. Your seller protection is a deal you have with PayPal, and if you followed their rules and provide all the information they require you will be covered. They don't make this particularly automatic and easy and if you don't know your rights you have none. Initially a case will be opened, PayPal will remove the seller's money, and ask the seller for details of the transaction. Provide all the information they require but don't wait the default time for the PayPal system to process the case. Call them the following day, be nice, and have them look into the case and the information you sent. If what you sent covers you to be eligible for seller protection the rep will put the money back into your account and close your case with PayPal permanently. PayPal still has their fight with the credit card company but the outcome of their fight with the credit card company doesn't affect the deal you had with PayPal. >>
PP can only take money from your account if there is money in there to take. I don't believe they can access your linked CC or bank accounts without your permission. At worst you will end up with a negative balance and all PP will have is an IOU. So it is still in PP's best interest to support sellers in a chargeback case. If they throw them under a bus, sellers will quit accepting PP.