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How do you feel about Cherrypicking?
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I know how I feel, I think it's ok but some think its wrong. How do you feel about it? This is why I started not telling sellers what I found. I went to a show in Long Beach and sat at a dealers table. I found 3 buffalos 1914/3 and I told him if I tell you something can I buy one of these coins at what you have them priced at? He says yes so I told him what i found and then he looks at them, turns and them put's them in back of him on a table and tells me they are not for sale. I told him we had a deal he looks at me and says they're not for sale. l got up said thanks and walked away. After that I never almost never tell any one what I picked off them. If i tell them most of the time thats what they are thinking he's picking me or if i dont tell them i'm a jerk for not telling them. I guess i will live with that lable as a cherrypicker.
Hoard the keys.
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Edit: Just read your full post. I will only inform dealers who I'm close with or trust will honor a deal about cherrypicks, and that's only if it's a BIG cherrypick; The little stuff I usually just grab and run.
Tons has been and will be written on cherrypicking etiquette. Telling a seller what you found can be seen as gloating and is in bad form unless they ask you after you've completed the transaction.
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If it is a casual seller, or just a collector, then I, personally, feel a bit more compulsed to tell them...and maybe work out a deal.
If I were to cherry a dealer, I wouldn't tell them as I wouldn't want them to take it as if I were rubbing salt in their wounds, or them thinking things of me such that you mention.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
That being said, I have tipped dealers off on a couple occasions before when I saw a price listing that was obviously just an error.
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(I should note that I am referring to eBay listings, dealers inventories, etc.)
People at the supermarket don't close their eyes and randomly grab 5 apples out of fairness. They pick carefully to get what they want.
That's how it works, the person before you probably picked what they liked best.
Never talk about a cherrypick until it's safely home in your hands.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
<< <i>There's nothing wrong with cherrypicking. What you did wrong, IMO, is tell the dealer what you found.
Never talk about a cherrypick until it's safely home in your hands. >>
Oh I know that now this happen a long time ago. I don't say much when i'm picking any more i just do my job and pick.
Hoard the keys.
If it is some random table at a show, have at it.
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say anything !!!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I know how I feel, I think it's ok but some think its wrong. How do you feel about it? This is why I started not telling sellers what I found. I went to a show in Long Beach and sat at a dealers table. I found 3 buffalos 1914/3 and I told him if I tell you something can I buy one of these coins at what you have them priced at? He says yes so I told him what i found and then he looks at them, turns and them put's them in back of him on a table and tells me they are not for sale. I told him we had a deal he looks at me and says they're not for sale. l got up said thanks and walked away. After that I never almost never tell any one what I picked off them. If i tell them most of the time thats what they are thinking he's picking me or if i dont tell them i'm a jerk for not telling them. I guess i will live with that lable as a cherrypicker. >>
This is why coin collectors drink. You should continue to patronize this unethical dealer and cherry pick him every chance you get. Apparently he's too lazy to research what he has. Just don't buy anything unless it's a rip and keep what you find to yourself. Save your retail purchases for those ethical dealers that want to build a long term relationship with collectors through fair and honest dealings.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
On the other hand there are some dealers who deserve what they get. If a dealer has tried to rip me off in the past, I feel no obligation to work with him. Worse yet, when I was younger, I would spot something I needed, tell the dealer about it, and then he would refuse to sell it to me or even refuse to negotiate a price with me even though that price was higher that his initial asking price. To me it's "open season" on dealers like that. They are just "takers" who don't give anything back to people who are honest with them.
<< <i>It is unethical to cherrypick a non collector who would have no chance of knowing what they have. In the case of dealers it can be a different story. If I have a good relationship with a dealer, I will tell him what he has, and if I need it I will work with him, and will hope that he will work with me. They almost always do work with me.
On the other hand there are some dealers who deserve what they get. If a dealer has tried to rip me off in the past, I feel no obligation to work with him. Worse yet, when I was younger, I would spot something I needed, tell the dealer about it, and then he would refuse to sell it to me or even refuse to negotiate a price with me even though that price was higher that his initial asking price. To me it's "open season" on dealers like that. They are just "takers" who don't give anything back to people who are honest with them. >>
Excellent post from a former coin dealer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If somebody comes to me like a customer or someone inquiring about coins, I feel its ethical to inform them of what they have. I would not try to deceive them and buy a rare variety cheap. Sometimes I have lucked out and got something better because I did not know until I researched it myself later. This happens , although I have never had a big winner.
Now, if I am looking at another dealers inventory and I see something they missed, its open season. grading as well, I can catch an occasional undergrade and make a good profit as well.
From a dealer: The seller has priced his inventory at what he thinks he should be able to get (retail/wholesale), and uses his extensive knowledge in making numismatic transactions. If he, and the seller from whom he got the coin, did not spot a more valuable variety when making the prior transaction, then he did not pay up for it when he bought the coin in the first place. Is he owed an outsized profit when he sells the coin to you? Not really. I would not do this to a friend, but dealers in general are fair game.
In truth, dealers do not create coins, they buy and sell (or function as marketers more generally). In order to make a profit, they have to use their knowledge of the current market trends, who is looking for what, and be able to spot undergraded coins. Cherrypicking is simply another means to buy a coin for less than what is it worth to some others in the marketplace, and is not really different than buying an undergraded coin and then getting it upgraded after the purchase. In both cases, the buyer uses his knowledge to his own benefit (and the seller does not really lose, he just doesn't share in the 'added' value).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
That being said, there are some common sense 'rules' that IMO are appropriate:
-- Don't occupy a space at a dealer's table spending hours scrutinizing every coin he has; this blocks other buyers and interferes with the dealers business
-- Don't be referring to the cherrypickers guide while you are at the table
-- Don't feel 'obligated' to inform the dealer prior to the purchase or the OP experience can very easily be realized. Also the dealer may in the future be wary of you whenever you are at his table, knowing that you are one of the dreaded 'cherrypickers'.
-- Don't feel 'obligated' to inform the dealer after the purchase; very distasteful; viewed as gloating; the dealer will be wary of you in the future.
From the dealer's side, what jdimmick mentioned can be an issue about purchasing a coin from an unwary, uninformed customer. I remember a Numismatic News front page story quite a few years ago. A major firm had 'discovered' and auctioned off a Seated Liberty half dollar which was an extremely rare variety; if I remember correctly it was only the second known and may have resulted in a 6 figure price. The story also recounted how the firm came into possession of the coin; an individual came into the their counter at a store and the firm purchased the nice AU coin for less than $100 dollars. That brought up a lot of ethical issues... did the firm knowingly knowingly take advantage of the unwary customer? Did they know in advance it was likely the rare variety (or did they discover it later)? Did they recontact the unwary seller? There were quite a few letters to the editor of NN regarding this, and the firm had some backlash from the episode. I, for one, think of this whenever I see the firm's name, even after years have gone by.
On the other hand, if a collector who is not knowledgeable says, "hey I don't know much about coins, can you look at this and tell me what it's worth...and if you have an interest in buying it, let me know"...I feel compelled to be honest with them about what they have. I might not be interested in buying it, but I will tell them if what they have is something special.
No hard fast rules here but that's kind of what I feel like...
If the question about how you "feel" about cherrypicking is really about the ethics of cherrypicking, then I feel it is ethical.
I consider a knowledgable collector one who has the numismatic knowledge or ability to obtain the knowledge when pricing his/her coins for sale. And a dealer is a professional numismatist who has similar or more opportunities to gain knowledge. Thus it is an "even" field with respect to the ability to gain knowledge prior to the transaction. If one of the parties chooses not to be knowledgable about the transaction, that is his/her choice.
That does not mean you cannot offer them more money or alert them if you "like" them or they are a "good" dealer or collector. On the other hand, notifying people that you have cherrypicked them or about to cherrypick them is, well, fraught with danger.
On many occasions when a dealer has graciously allowed me to consume some of their table real estate while I pour through twenty-cent pieces, at the end of the transaction I have notified them of a variety in their stock that may command a premium. What they choose to do with that knowledge is up to them. To date, no dealer has been anything but polite in response.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
+1 >>
I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a collector's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his fault.
It makes no difference on what side of the counter the buyer is standing. It is still up to the seller to understand what he is selling.
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
+1 >>
I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a collector's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his fault.
It makes no difference on what side of the counter the buyer is standing. It is still up to the seller to understand what he is selling. >>
I don't agree if the scenario is someone going into a coin shop wishing to sell a collection that they did not build. It's unethical for the dealer not to offer a fair price as he/she is the professional. Ripping the public because they are ignorant is wrong. I am not referring to rare varieties that the dealer discovers later, I am talking about a dealer overtly cheating a seller because the dealer can do so.
Case in point ... I worked at a shop many years go. I came into work one day and the owner was so excited because he just "cherried" an 1893-S dollar. Yeah, he "cherried" it by knowing it was part of a hundred or so common circ dollars and offering common circ price for everything. Obviously, the seller didn't know of the coin's value and didn't spend the time to go to the library or the book store to research all of the coins (the Internet did not exist at the time). The customer put trust in the local businessman and professional.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I would not recommend one brag about what they cherrypicked from someone or inform them (unless your just not going to do it due to ethical concerns and want to educate the seller). If you ripped someone in acquiring a coin or banknote at least have the class not to brag about it. If someone were to inform me prior to the consumation of a transaction I had been "cheerypicked" I would cancel it as I don't want to be ripped.
A dealer needs to take responsibility to know what he has in his inventory to avoid being ripped by buyers.
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Don
<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
i totally agree with that.
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
i totally agree with that. >>
(if you want to make a sale also you wont mind) just saying
<< <i>If an elderly lady goes to a B&M coin shop with her late husbands collection of Lincoln cents and the dealer offers her $50 for an authentic 1909-S VDB in Fine condition, isn't that cherrypicking? Or is that a whole difference can of worms? >>
That is simply an unethical dealer.
You know, the guy that buys the used violin for $250 which he knows is a Stradivarius.
I had a close friend which did not call me when selling the gold piece her father had given her. She loved her father and the gold piece which she proudly wore in a necklace.
She went to a Coin Dealer and mistakenly asked about the numismatic value. Since it had been in a necklace bezel, he told her it was ruined and offered her "half" of its melt value.
She didn't know and accepted.
Very unethical to take advantage of those seeking your "expertise".
On the other hand, if I go to a business which is run by a "professional" and spot a variety which I know I could sell to the right audience for a good deal more money than I paid, then that's just good business. The business has their inventory priced to sell at a "profit" for them. They've made their profits and since I would be a "customer" and not an "employee of their business", its not my job to tell them that they could make a lot more "profits". Its my job to simple buy what they are selling since they should know what they are selling.
If I wanted to "educate" coin dealers, I'd hold a seminar and make some money sharing what I have learned over the years.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
+1 >>
I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a collector's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his fault.
It makes no difference on what side of the counter the buyer is standing. It is still up to the seller to understand what he is selling. >>
I don't agree if the scenario is someone going into a coin shop wishing to sell a collection that they did not build. It's unethical for the dealer not to offer a fair price as he/she is the professional. Ripping the public because they are ignorant is wrong. I am not referring to rare varieties that the dealer discovers later, I am talking about a dealer overtly cheating a seller because the dealer can do so.
Case in point ... I worked at a shop many years go. I came into work one day and the owner was so excited because he just "cherried" an 1893-S dollar. Yeah, he "cherried" it by knowing it was part of a hundred or so common circ dollars and offering common circ price for everything. Obviously, the seller didn't know of the coin's value and didn't spend the time to go to the library or the book store to research all of the coins (the Internet did not exist at the time). The customer put trust in the local businessman and professional. >>
(Emphasis in quotes added by me)
Note that I specifically stated collector. I said nothing at all about ripping off poor ole widows and orphans. Regarding the stated collector, however, how is it the buyer's responsibility if a seller refuses to educate himself? If he lied to the seller by telling him that every coin in the collection was worth the same amount then it wasn't a cherrypick. It was felony fraud! If, on the other hand, (as probably happened) he merely offered a price and the seller accepted it then end of story.
Note: I am not now, nor have I ever been a coin dealer. I merely think that "Sauce for the goose equals sauce for the gander.". Cherrypicking is either ethical on both sides or it is unethical on both sides.
I see that as a different can of worms. A coin dealer- especially if they advertise as "Top Dollar Paid for your coins", the dealer has a fiduciary obligation to its customers to live up to what they claim they do. A customer that chooses that dealer based on their buying claim is entitled to have expectations that they will be treated fairly. In your question, you mentioned a 1909-s VDB which any dealer should recognize and pay a fair price- $50 does not pass the straight face test.
Let's change the facts: The coin is a 1946 WLH with a DDR that would likely 65, the dealer could over look the DDR and just not be aware of the variety. The dealer offers $80 for it thinking he could sell it for $125. The dealer buys it at $80. Ace Cherrypicker comes into the store and pays the dealer's asking price of $125. Dealer is satisiied with the $45 profit. Ace sends the 1946 WLH DDR off to PCGS and it grades 65 and he sends it to auction house A and it brings $1,400.
The questions are:
Did the dealer live up to their fiduciary duty?
Is Ace a bad person for not telling the Dealer at the time of the purchase?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
+1 >>
I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a collector's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his fault.
It makes no difference on what side of the counter the buyer is standing. It is still up to the seller to understand what he is selling. >>
I don't agree if the scenario is someone going into a coin shop wishing to sell a collection that they did not build. It's unethical for the dealer not to offer a fair price as he/she is the professional. Ripping the public because they are ignorant is wrong. I am not referring to rare varieties that the dealer discovers later, I am talking about a dealer overtly cheating a seller because the dealer can do so.
Case in point ... I worked at a shop many years go. I came into work one day and the owner was so excited because he just "cherried" an 1893-S dollar. Yeah, he "cherried" it by knowing it was part of a hundred or so common circ dollars and offering common circ price for everything. Obviously, the seller didn't know of the coin's value and didn't spend the time to go to the library or the book store to research all of the coins (the Internet did not exist at the time). The customer put trust in the local businessman and professional. >>
(Emphasis in quotes added by me)
Note that I specifically stated collector. I said nothing at all about ripping off poor ole widows and orphans. Regarding the stated collector, however, how is it the buyer's responsibility if a seller refuses to educate himself? If he lied to the seller by telling him that every coin in the collection was worth the same amount then it wasn't a cherrypick. It was felony fraud! If, on the other hand, (as probably happened) he merely offered a price and the seller accepted it then end of story.
Note: I am not now, nor have I ever been a coin dealer. I merely think that "Sauce for the goose equals sauce for the gander.". Cherrypicking is either ethical on both sides or it is unethical on both sides. >>
I think we are in agreement regarding a collector or someone who has knowledge about numismatics. We are perhaps in disagreement regarding a noncollector who trusts a professional numismatist to treat them fairly.
Regarding "as probably happened (which was not the case, BTW)" ... Say you work in a coin shop and a person brings in 100 common circ Morgan silver dollars (and they are not stolen, cleaned, damaged, yada, yada, yada) and you look through them and see that one is an 1893-S that you can flip for $4000. Is it ethical just to offer them a price equivalent to 100x the common circ price? And if the seller accepts that price, it's okay ... end of story?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Bob
I agree with comments that there is a big difference between "hobbyists/collectors" vs. the little old lady selling her dead husbands collection that she knows nothing about.
As for collectors and dealers, knowledge is power. Know what you've got. When it comes to buying/selling you'll maximize your gain.
To answer your question- No that would not be okay
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I also feel like it is in bad form to cherry pick dealers with whom you have a relationship. If you don't know them, that may be a different story. I do my best to research varieties of every coin I buy for resale, but I don't know everything, and don't always have the time, so I'm sure I have left money on the table before.(hopefully I didn't pay for someones kid to go to college.) In the OP's situation, I commend him for attempting to inform the dealer, and can't blame him for no longer doing that. I would like to think that if it were to happen to me, I would have gone through with the deal. Hopefully I'll never have to find out.
My Ebay Store
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<< <i>I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a dealer's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his own fault. >>
+1 >>
I feel great about cherrypicking. It's a collector's responsibility to himself to know what he's selling, and if he doesn't care to take the time to learn then that's his fault.
It makes no difference on what side of the counter the buyer is standing. It is still up to the seller to understand what he is selling. >>
I don't agree if the scenario is someone going into a coin shop wishing to sell a collection that they did not build. It's unethical for the dealer not to offer a fair price as he/she is the professional. Ripping the public because they are ignorant is wrong. I am not referring to rare varieties that the dealer discovers later, I am talking about a dealer overtly cheating a seller because the dealer can do so.
Case in point ... I worked at a shop many years go. I came into work one day and the owner was so excited because he just "cherried" an 1893-S dollar. Yeah, he "cherried" it by knowing it was part of a hundred or so common circ dollars and offering common circ price for everything. Obviously, the seller didn't know of the coin's value and didn't spend the time to go to the library or the book store to research all of the coins (the Internet did not exist at the time). The customer put trust in the local businessman and professional. >>
(Emphasis in quotes added by me)
Note that I specifically stated collector. I said nothing at all about ripping off poor ole widows and orphans. Regarding the stated collector, however, how is it the buyer's responsibility if a seller refuses to educate himself? If he lied to the seller by telling him that every coin in the collection was worth the same amount then it wasn't a cherrypick. It was felony fraud! If, on the other hand, (as probably happened) he merely offered a price and the seller accepted it then end of story.
Note: I am not now, nor have I ever been a coin dealer. I merely think that "Sauce for the goose equals sauce for the gander.". Cherrypicking is either ethical on both sides or it is unethical on both sides. >>
I think we are in agreement regarding a collector or someone who has knowledge about numismatics. We are perhaps in disagreement regarding a noncollector who trusts a professional numismatist to treat them fairly.
Regarding "as probably happened (which was not the case, BTW)" ... Say you work in a coin shop and a person brings in 100 common circ Morgan silver dollars (and they are not stolen, cleaned, damaged, yada, yada, yada) and you look through them and see that one is an 1893-S that you can flip for $4000. Is it ethical just to offer them a price equivalent to 100x the common circ price? And if the seller accepts that price, it's okay ... end of story? >>
Does the dealer specifically tell the seller that his 93-S Morgan was only worth 30 bucks? If so, then just as I stated above that's not a cherrypick, it's fraud. Or, does he instead say, "You have 100 Morgan dollars--I'll pay $3000.00 for the lot."? If it's the second scenario, then yes, IMO, end of story.
Individual responsibility has a place here, too. Even if previously unknowledgeable about market value of what he had nothing at all kept that seller from doing at least a modicum of research beforehand or seeking out a second opinion.
<< <i>If an elderly lady goes to a B&M coin shop with her late husbands collection of Lincoln cents and the dealer offers her $50 for an authentic 1909-S VDB in Fine condition, isn't that cherrypicking? Or is that a whole difference can of worms? >>
That's the sort of thing which ruins the hobby for so many. That's as far from cherry picking as it gets. While it's not pick-pocketing and the lady was being offered 5,000 times face value in your scenario, it's not the same thing. That is a can of worms.
But for the sake of addressing this, let's assume the dealer was buying a $50 bag of wheat cents from her for $150 and found the coin by searching. To me , that would be cherry picking. And that would be okay by me. It wouldn't be as though she or her husband were "into" it.
But it's a can of worms with respect to your "presentation of hypotheticals"
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Of course that was numismatic currency. With coins with different specialized buyers the buy/sell transaction is relevant to the ethics of the situation as the question is what is the sell price based on? With super rare varieties certainly there are questions as to knowledge and proper research. A win-win solution would be for the buyer who realizes a windfall to offer a reasonable extra sum to the seller after the fact.
Feelings don't usually get in the way of facts.
Knowledge is power. And cherry picking in it's purest form is worthy of kudos. In today's world it is still easy to do with the simplest of things.
Some people can go buy Tupperware at a garage sale and triple their money in an "estate sale'. Go figure. Those dirty cherry pickers.
I find it refreshing in today's world that there is a thriving economy despite the fret and worry I read about online. Why more people aren't doing it (exercising their God given rights to go make money the easy way: Cherry Picking), really surprises me. Find your niche, make your way. This is a big world and someone needs something and will pay more for it than you… That is, if you can "do it". Do it. This is Capitalism 101, kids.
There's a difference between a lesson and school. Every day is an opportunity to exercise your rights.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Does the dealer specifically tell the seller that his 93-S Morgan was only worth 30 bucks? If so, then just as I stated above that's not a cherrypick, it's fraud. Or, does he instead say, "You have 100 Morgan dollars--I'll pay $3000.00 for the lot."? If it's the second scenario, then yes, IMO, end of story. >>
New components seem to get layered into this scenario. Let's put it a different way.
You are a professional coin dealer with a brick and mortar shop.
Your current buying price for circ Morgan dollars in any quantity is $20 each.
A non-collector comes into your store and would like to sell 100 circ Morgan dollars that they legally own.
You notice that one of the Morgans is an 1893-S that the dealer can sell immediately for $4000.
You gather from your brief conversation with them that they are not knowledgable about coins.
What do you do?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I know how I feel, I think it's ok but some think its wrong. How do you feel about it? This is why I started not telling sellers what I found. I went to a show in Long Beach and sat at a dealers table. I found 3 buffalos 1914/3 and I told him if I tell you something can I buy one of these coins at what you have them priced at? He says yes so I told him what i found and then he looks at them, turns and them put's them in back of him on a table and tells me they are not for sale. I told him we had a deal he looks at me and says they're not for sale. l got up said thanks and walked away. After that I never almost never tell any one what I picked off them. If i tell them most of the time thats what they are thinking he's picking me or if i dont tell them i'm a jerk for not telling them. I guess i will live with that lable as a cherrypicker. >>
You have no obligation whatsoever to inform a professional dealer of a coin that he has under listed. In your case, he was unaware of the 1914/13 for three coins. Obviously, he did not pay 1914/13 money for those coins either. So, in this case you would have been just cherrypicking a cherrypicker. The dealer in this case is a PIG and you should out him as such on this forum.
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