As for the Kennedys. I've looked at 25 and sent back 10. One box of 5 were ALL scratched! Ridiculous! So far mine came back 2 for 5 on 70s. I was way more critical of the next 20 (family and friends coins) after receiving my grades. So much for trying to make them some extra money!
Zubie, you must have been at ANA or an outlet store, right? With regular shipping starting last week there wouldn't be time to get a shipment, reship to PCGS and get your pieces back.
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is. >>
I guess eventually someone need fast cash and that what they get from dealer. >>
Exactly the point I was trying to make. The truth is, one man buys it and dies. A son or daughter inherits it and gets a "freebie". So, if we analyze this for it's reality , it is what it is…. and nearly a thousand bucks is a lot of money to the 99%
I'll change my mind after seeing non-ANA true auction prices over a period of time, say a week. These can include raw before first strike deadline and sealed boxes of equal number inside (not comparing a 2 coin box with a one -- some may not bid the two coin one as high or higher)
I will say that, even though sales stopped early, the ANA flip seems to be falling. Though with all the buy elsewhere an fly in submissions, that does offset the stoppage some.
Anyone else find it odd that NGC has not yet published any of their pop reports on the gold Kennedy Halves??? Not sure what reason they have for this... I can speculate though, but that would likely be against the forum rules.
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is. >>
I guess eventually someone need fast cash and that what they get from dealer. >>
I believe 7over8 refers to these pieces regularly trading in the open market at melt. Occasionally pawn shop dumps by a kid who stole his dad's coins or a widow with a box of coins will happen and do not set open market trade levels.
Now if gold were to run up to $2000 in the next year or two? Then a $1500 Au Kennedy could be yours!
It is interesting to see the Chicago label count in this CoinWeek 8/22 article. A good read includes a quote from Don Willis about the numbers. The chart from the article:
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt Not happening. Period. >>
I compared these to First Spouse coins a few weeks ago...I changed my mind--they are worse than those..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is interesting to see the Chicago label count in this CoinWeek 8/22 article. A good read includes a quote from Don Willis about the numbers. The chart from the article: [/
I thought DC only sold 376 of the 500. I know at least 100 were unsold 1st day. So out of all the DC coins only 20 or so ended up being not graded? Something smells fishy!
<< <i>It is interesting to see the Chicago label count in this CoinWeek 8/22 article. A good read includes a quote from Don Willis about the numbers. The chart from the article: >>
I thought DC o;t know about first day sanly sold 376 of the 500. I know at least 100 were unsold 1st day. So out of all the DC coins only 20 or so ended up being not graded? Something smells fishy! >>
I don't know about first day sales, but I will guess that any unsold the first day were made available the following 2 days.
It looks like 613 coins from the outlets made it to Chicago. And surprising the number of PCGS coins. Since NGC required a receipt, those 613 must have gone to PCGS leaving only 334 actually bought in Chicago graded in Chicago.
Why is there coins listed in the column (PCGS no receipt) for Washington/Denver/Philadelphia FDI.
The link attached earlier from "CionFacts" numismatic article state -
"The company also made a special First Strike label (Label #118) that includes “Chicago 2014”, and first day labels for each of the three retail locations. We haven’t seen those last three yet so we don’t know their exact wording, but CoinFacts calls them “First Day of Issue-Denver”, etc."
I was not aware that PCGS created a FDI label - and have not seen one.
Given they did not verify receipts, that would make those labels (without such verification as proof, and marking them so they weren't re-used) questionable at best.
<< <i>Why is there coins listed in the column (PCGS no receipt) for Washington/Denver/Philadelphia FDI.
How would you know this information (didn't require receipt) - as I also understand PCGS didn't label this way....only NGC. So there should be blanks in those positions.
Those amounts should be rolled up with the Chicago numbers. >>
PCGS did offer the outlet 1st day sales label
From the article: "PCGS created individual labels for the first six coins sold at the ANA (which were bought by Lipton and Hendrickson). The company also made a special First Strike label (Label #118) that includes “Chicago 2014”, and first day labels for each of the three retail locations."
It could be a mistaken listing in the population report, maybe not. Give it a week or so to be clearer in the pop report.
Questionable at best without verifying receipts and making sure they weren't re-used.
It would be hilarious if the totals between the two TPG's added to more than the total coins available at each of the retail locations, or whatever was sold, the lesser of the two.
<< <i>Questionable at best without verifying receipts and making sure they weren't re-used.
It would be hilarious if the totals between the two TPG's added to more than the total coins available at each of the retail locations, or whatever was sold, the lesser of the two. >>
I agree. Big mistake not requiring receipts for PCGS. From the article quote from Don: "2) Any JFK coins that received a First Day of Issue label, regardless of the mint, had to adhere to very strict chain of custody requirements. We can guarantee that those coins were sold in those locations on that day." Again, confusing and a little contradictory. With out receipt how could you guarantee coins labeled Philly were bought in Philly on the first day? I don't remember there being a PCGS grader in Philly. A total head scratcher.
Solution: the mint should not sell coins at shows untill they have started delivery through normal channels first.
oddly enough, pcgs graded one of my primo coins a 69 and the one with some type of water spots a 70.
that said, I'm offering 2 PR70DCAM First Strike Flag Label (the other has two specks of dust on the obverse that weren't there before submission) and the PR69DCAM First Strike Flag Label(which has a black speck of dust on the reverse that wasn't there before and which will probably upgrade (but no guarantees)) on the BST for cost. All priced the same.... because they are being sold at cost. All Sold As Is! beware of sticker shock as these were turned around via walkthrough.
That's why I DONT buy labels /grades and buy coins I like. No matter how many times a modern coin is graded it should ALWAYS be the same. Just goes to show you how crazy the gradeing game is. Pass
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case.
<< <i>That's why I DONT buy labels /grades and buy coins I like. No matter how many times a modern coin is graded it should ALWAYS be the same. Just goes to show you how crazy the gradeing game is. Pass
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case. >>
some dealers greed ,, sums up the stats ......surprising number of Chicago coins went NGC ,were most likely submitted by dealers
My dealer friend says Mint Show coin openings to stay.. but a new way to distribute coming for the next coin.... his guess will be some sort of lottery
<< <i>My dealer friend says Mint Show coin openings to stay.. but a new way to distribute coming for the next coin.... his guess will be some sort of lottery >>
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy.
"as struck" means that striking irregularities are allowed. You can check AGE Proof 70s. Look at the obverse lower stars on the left. Almost always (and I mean over the years) these have 3-ish stars give or take not fully struck up. The best years I've seen have had 1 star not fully struck up. The tips will be less pointed and shinier than the others. This is "as struck."
Those "water spots" aren't tarnish because 1) they seem to have shiny rims and 2) no discoloration (varying pure gold color from the satin shine of frosting to the silky gold of the fields
I think they may be strike throughs... these may be considered "as struck" by PCGS, I don't know but they certainly graded it that way.
the black speck on the 69 is dust, imo. It was not there when I sent it in and that coin is as good as the 2 70's that I am keeping.
the two 70's I'm unloading.... well... you heard about the "water spots" one.
the other one has 2 large flakes of dust and a large piece of lint on the obverse. Dust should not affect the grade, just how it looks in the holder and that someone will have to pay for the re-holder to remove it (unless PCGS does it for free)
What does make me wonder is the "streak" on the obverse. It could be lint, but it doesn't look like it. It looks in the coin. The weird thing is the color: gun metal blue. This is in the coin as far as I can tell plus it was a fast tarnish if it is an impurity that discolored. On the other hand, I've had coins where I was positive that something was a "tick" on the surface of the coin, but upon closer inspection and attempts... it came off. I've also had the vice verse happen. The previously mentioned lint and dust specks weren't on the coins, imo, until grading and are dust. I'm .9999 certain on them. This gun metal blue thing? I don't recall anything on it like that, but it's there and this looks in the coin.
PCGS gave it a 70. perhaps it discolored in a week? ?? ? ? ? Perhaps, they thought the .9999 pure gold just had a metal inclusion that is "as struck?"
Anyway, if this was a 2009 UHR or a HOF, they would probably be sold.
THIS is a sign it is not a white hot issue like them.
(many 2009 UHR had die polish lines, many had black specks embedded into the coins during striking. I advise all UHR buyers to look for them before buying one. The die polish lines are tolerated "as struck." I'm not sure about the specks because I've not looked at a lot of graded ones.)
I just can't believe I'm sending back 2 First Strike 70's and not even considering the crack-for-upgrade on the 69. Boom.... there goes the gold kennedy market.
(and the clad kennedy sets have rinse spots which are a discoloration from the mint... and unknown if they are pre- or post- striking. They are generally looked down upon and affect the grade as a bag mark would, imo)
so there is full disclosure and my analysis of the grades.
I tried pictures, but they do not show from my phone. They are small enough the camera and loupe would have to be attempted. I don't have time for that. The black is pinpoint, but it is black. You can't miss it... like a red spot on a white cashmere sweater. The other stuff on the 70 coin is large enough positioned such that they can't be missed either. Perhaps someone was holdering coins after shredding paper while wearing a cotton shirt.
<< <i>That's why I DONT buy labels /grades and buy coins I like. No matter how many times a modern coin is graded it should ALWAYS be the same. Just goes to show you how crazy the gradeing game is. Pass
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case. >>
processes are improving. I hope that grades are grades and the "70" idea and complaints do not sway anyone away from denoting a 70 when it is deserved.
as for the comment.... even at 69/70 the grade is a human's opinion. Opinions can differ and change.
<< <i>You can't miss it... like a red spot on a white cashmere sweater. The other stuff on the 70 coin is large enough positioned such that they can't be missed either. Perhaps someone was holdering coins after shredding paper while wearing a cotton shirt./q]
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy. >>
It's going to keep being suggested and I'm going to keep arguing against it.
a line for lottery tickets will be longer than the line for 1000 coins. It could be 2,000 long.... ,5,000 long .... 10,000 long or more and people line up to get lottery tickets.
What you think will alleviate a mess will make it worse.
PLUS! the dealers can pay the line standers less for a lottery ticket than waiting for the purchase because they line will move faster and anyone might be able to redeem the ticket. You think the Mint is going to want to write down the names of 1,000 or more names and addresses on each ticket stub? Maybe not, maybe.
You think the TPGs will require a receipt with ID? What if the purchases were made AFTER the original person made the purchase instead of it being a paid line standers? That is a fatal flaw in that idea.
The last paragraph is a two parter. The very last part would result in nothing different than what just happened. The paid line standers can simply be required to have ID. The result will still be a mob scene.
The first parts of both paragraphs require the mint's actions. The mint would gather into to prevent multiple attempts. Plus it could be used to be sure the online order limit and the in person limit add to the required household limit. The Mint's future system will be able to do something like linking a CC to an online account. The problems here are the same as before. The paid line standers can simply have an online account made. They then stand in line as usual.
None of the ideas fix the issue of paid line standers.
It wasn't this bad when they did online/phone only for hot items. They need to go back to that system. Too bad that Peterson loves show sales these mint releases generate. I don't see it happening. The ANA and PNG and other shows may have to ask the Mint to take a more remote location or bring a lot more security... or deny them a booth if they insist on a hot item sales plan for a show.... due to security reasons. and public safety.
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy. >>
It's going to keep being suggested and I'm going to keep arguing against it.
a line for lottery tickets will be longer than the line for 1000 coins. It could be 2,000 long.... ,5,000 long .... 10,000 long or more and people line up to get lottery tickets.
What you think will alleviate a mess will make it worse.
PLUS! the dealers can pay the line standers less for a lottery ticket than waiting for the purchase because they line will move faster and anyone might be able to redeem the ticket. You think the Mint is going to want to write down the names of 1,000 or more names and addresses on each ticket stub? Maybe not, maybe.
You think the TPGs will require a receipt with ID? What if the purchases were made AFTER the original person made the purchase instead of it being a paid line standers? That is a fatal flaw in that idea.
The last paragraph is a two parter. The very last part would result in nothing different than what just happened. The paid line standers can simply be required to have ID. The result will still be a mob scene.
The first parts of both paragraphs require the mint's actions. The mint would gather into to prevent multiple attempts. Plus it could be used to be sure the online order limit and the in person limit add to the required household limit. The Mint's future system will be able to do something like linking a CC to an online account. The problems here are the same as before. The paid line standers can simply have an online account made. They then stand in line as usual.
None of the ideas fix the issue of paid line standers.
It wasn't this bad when they did online/phone only for hot items. They need to go back to that system. Too bad that Peterson loves show sales these mint releases generate. I don't see it happening. The ANA and PNG and other shows may have to ask the Mint to take a more remote location or bring a lot more security... or deny them a booth if they insist on a hot item sales plan for a show.... due to security reasons. and public safety. >>
I think we are basically on the same page. I say: The mint sould just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. I think You say about the same thing but maybe a little longer being delivered. Correct me if I'm mis-remembering.
The next big release will be the 4 coin Kennedy set. It should be the first test of the new online ordering system too. I agree that Peterson like the attention for the mint. (and maybe himself too) So no mater if we solve it here they will use their own logic which will never be explained.
Is there a show around the middle of October to the first week of November? It's almost a given the mint will do a show release again for the remaining Kennedy set.
I'll go with you that the TPGs requiring ID match to receipt won't work. But the paid line standers could be solved , for the most part, by limiting dealers to credentials for those necessary to run their booth, not hundreds. Not every employee of the dealer getting 50 or more sets, just the one dealer representative. And they must be named, not anonymous. Line standers would also need a mint account with valid address and credit card. Busing in random people just wouldn't work.
The 14 HSN had were the ANA Chicago label graded 69. The CoinWeek article said ANACS graded 30 at the show, so I would bet HSN guy has 16 ANACS Chicago labels graded 70 as well.
ANACS appears to have a different standard for First Day of Issue than NGC does and it would more accurately be described as "first day shipped by the mint". I figured that out when HSN had 2014 of the 2 coin Kennedy clad sets graded SP69 FDOI. There is no way they got 2014 sets standing in line in Philadelphia or Denver, much less had that many sets grade so well out of a larger number of sets.
Comments
As for the Kennedys. I've looked at 25 and sent back 10. One box of 5 were ALL scratched! Ridiculous!
So far mine came back 2 for 5 on 70s. I was way more critical of the next 20 (family and friends coins) after receiving my grades.
So much for trying to make them some extra money!
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You're spot on HAT, they're done and it didn't take long.
Have a Best Day,
Chief
<< <i>So far mine came back 2 for 5 on 70s. >>
The best Ive seen is between 2-3 of 5.
This will drive FS prices for PR70's higher in the not to distant future.
Overdate, BestMR, Weather11AM, TDEC1000, Carew4me, BigMarty58, Coinsarefun, Golfer72, UnknownComic, DMarks, JFoot13, ElKevvo, Truthteller, Duxbutt, TwoSides2aCoin, PerryHall, mhammerman, Papabear, Wingsrule, WTCG, MillerJW, Ciccio, zrlevin, dantheman984, tee135, jdimmick, gsa1fan, jmski52, SUMORADA, guitarwes, bstat1020, pitboss, meltdown, Schmitz7, 30AnvZ28, pragmaticgoat, wondercoin & MkMan123
<< <i>No, I got my online order last Thursday, turned them that day to PCGS (express service) and got them today (7 days total). >>
That is very fast. You gotta be one of the first. Congrats!
Furthermore I don't accept the gold Kennedy as a "real coin." The most I would pay for one is melt if even that much.
I expect this coin to be trading around melt in the near future.
Not happening. Period.
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt
Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is.
HE>I
<< <i>
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt
Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is. >>
I guess eventually someone need fast cash and that what they get from dealer.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt
Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is. >>
I guess eventually someone need fast cash and that what they get from dealer. >>
Exactly the point I was trying to make. The truth is, one man buys it and dies. A son or daughter inherits it and gets a "freebie".
So, if we analyze this for it's reality , it is what it is…. and nearly a thousand bucks is a lot of money to the 99%
HE>I
I bought into the hype early on and ordered 5 but quickly decided that it was going to be a dud and cancelled my order.
If you want one to keep that is fine and it is gold so will retain golds value.
As far as 1st strikes go there will be more of them than there are buyers for.
I see current calls.
I'll change my mind after seeing non-ANA true auction prices over a period of time, say a week. These can include raw before first strike deadline and sealed boxes of equal number inside (not comparing a 2 coin box with a one -- some may not bid the two coin one as high or higher)
I will say that, even though sales stopped early, the ANA flip seems to be falling. Though with all the buy elsewhere an fly in submissions, that does offset the stoppage some.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt
Not happening. Period. >>
Wanna bet ?
I will find this thread when I do. It may reach 2000 posts by then, but… ANYTHING is possible and probably is. >>
I guess eventually someone need fast cash and that what they get from dealer. >>
I believe 7over8 refers to these pieces regularly trading in the open market at melt. Occasionally pawn shop dumps by a kid who stole his dad's coins or a widow with a box of coins will happen and do not set open market trade levels.
Now if gold were to run up to $2000 in the next year or two? Then a $1500 Au Kennedy could be yours!
The chart from the article:
<< <i>You will never buy the gold kennedy at melt
Not happening. Period. >>
I compared these to First Spouse coins a few weeks ago...I changed my mind--they are worse than those..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is interesting to see the Chicago label count in this CoinWeek 8/22 article. A good read includes a quote from Don Willis about the numbers.
The chart from the article:
I thought DC only sold 376 of the 500. I know at least 100 were unsold 1st day. So out of all the DC coins only 20 or so ended up being not graded? Something smells fishy!
<< <i>It is interesting to see the Chicago label count in this CoinWeek 8/22 article. A good read includes a quote from Don Willis about the numbers.
The chart from the article:
At least 165 collectors made it through!
<< <i>
I thought DC o;t know about first day sanly sold 376 of the 500. I know at least 100 were unsold 1st day. So out of all the DC coins only 20 or so ended up being not graded? Something smells fishy! >>
I don't know about first day sales, but I will guess that any unsold the first day were made available the following 2 days.
The link attached earlier from "CionFacts" numismatic article state -
"The company also made a special First Strike label (Label #118) that includes “Chicago 2014”, and first day labels for each of the three retail locations. We haven’t seen those last three yet so we don’t know their exact wording, but CoinFacts calls them “First Day of Issue-Denver”, etc."
I was not aware that PCGS created a FDI label - and have not seen one.
Given they did not verify receipts, that would make those labels (without such verification as proof, and marking them so they weren't re-used) questionable at best.
<< <i>Why is there coins listed in the column (PCGS no receipt) for Washington/Denver/Philadelphia FDI.
How would you know this information (didn't require receipt) - as I also understand PCGS didn't label this way....only NGC. So there should be blanks in those positions.
Those amounts should be rolled up with the Chicago numbers. >>
PCGS did offer the outlet 1st day sales label
From the article:
"PCGS created individual labels for the first six coins sold at the ANA (which were bought by Lipton and Hendrickson). The company also made a special First Strike label (Label #118) that includes “Chicago 2014”, and first day labels for each of the three retail locations."
It could be a mistaken listing in the population report, maybe not. Give it a week or so to be clearer in the pop report.
It would be hilarious if the totals between the two TPG's added to more than the total coins available at each of the retail locations, or whatever was sold, the lesser of the two.
And the table states for Philadelphia -514.
Only 500 sold.
Hmmmmmm.
<< <i>Questionable at best without verifying receipts and making sure they weren't re-used.
It would be hilarious if the totals between the two TPG's added to more than the total coins available at each of the retail locations, or whatever was sold, the lesser of the two. >>
I agree. Big mistake not requiring receipts for PCGS. From the article quote from Don:
"2) Any JFK coins that received a First Day of Issue label, regardless of the mint, had to adhere to very strict chain of custody requirements. We can guarantee that those coins were sold in those locations on that day."
Again, confusing and a little contradictory. With out receipt how could you guarantee coins labeled Philly were bought in Philly on the first day? I don't remember there being a PCGS grader in Philly. A total head scratcher.
Solution: the mint should not sell coins at shows untill they have started delivery through normal channels first.
that said, I'm offering 2 PR70DCAM First Strike Flag Label (the other has two specks of dust on the obverse that weren't there before submission) and the PR69DCAM First Strike Flag Label(which has a black speck of dust on the reverse that wasn't there before and which will probably upgrade (but no guarantees)) on the BST for cost. All priced the same.... because they are being sold at cost. All Sold As Is! beware of sticker shock as these were turned around via walkthrough.
No receipt checked, no proof
If the numbers don't add up then some who got 69's on the first try probably cracked them out and tried again
Edit to add: I think someone posted somewhere that one of his made 70 on the 4th try.
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case.
<< <i>That's why I DONT buy labels /grades and buy coins I like. No matter how many times a modern coin is graded it should ALWAYS be the same. Just goes to show you how crazy the gradeing game is. Pass
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case. >>
some dealers greed ,, sums up the stats ......surprising number of Chicago coins went NGC ,were most likely submitted by dealers
My dealer friend says Mint Show coin openings to stay.. but a new way to distribute coming for the next coin.... his guess will be some sort of lottery
<< <i>My dealer friend says Mint Show coin openings to stay.. but a new way to distribute coming for the next coin.... his guess will be some sort of lottery >>
I'm in.
<< <i>I don't think the goverment(sic) can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
Maybe the Mint will hand out numbered cups of Grape KoolAid.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy.
what makes a coin a MS60? lots of marks and spots
what makes a coin a MS70? a lack of them.
"as struck" means that striking irregularities are allowed. You can check AGE Proof 70s. Look at the obverse lower stars on the left. Almost always (and I mean over the years) these have 3-ish stars give or take not fully struck up. The best years I've seen have had 1 star not fully struck up. The tips will be less pointed and shinier than the others. This is "as struck."
Those "water spots" aren't tarnish because 1) they seem to have shiny rims and 2) no discoloration (varying pure gold color from the satin shine of frosting to the silky gold of the fields
I think they may be strike throughs... these may be considered "as struck" by PCGS, I don't know but they certainly graded it that way.
the black speck on the 69 is dust, imo. It was not there when I sent it in and that coin is as good as the 2 70's that I am keeping.
the two 70's I'm unloading.... well... you heard about the "water spots" one.
the other one has 2 large flakes of dust and a large piece of lint on the obverse. Dust should not affect the grade, just how it looks in the holder and that someone will have to pay for the re-holder to remove it (unless PCGS does it for free)
What does make me wonder is the "streak" on the obverse. It could be lint, but it doesn't look like it. It looks in the coin. The weird thing is the color: gun metal blue. This is in the coin as far as I can tell plus it was a fast tarnish if it is an impurity that discolored. On the other hand, I've had coins where I was positive that something was a "tick" on the surface of the coin, but upon closer inspection and attempts... it came off. I've also had the vice verse happen. The previously mentioned lint and dust specks weren't on the coins, imo, until grading and are dust. I'm .9999 certain on them. This gun metal blue thing? I don't recall anything on it like that, but it's there and this looks in the coin.
PCGS gave it a 70. perhaps it discolored in a week? ?? ? ? ? Perhaps, they thought the .9999 pure gold just had a metal inclusion that is "as struck?"
Anyway, if this was a 2009 UHR or a HOF, they would probably be sold.
THIS is a sign it is not a white hot issue like them.
(many 2009 UHR had die polish lines, many had black specks embedded into the coins during striking. I advise all UHR buyers to look for them before buying one. The die polish lines are tolerated "as struck." I'm not sure about the specks because I've not looked at a lot of graded ones.)
I just can't believe I'm sending back 2 First Strike 70's and not even considering the crack-for-upgrade on the 69. Boom.... there goes the gold kennedy market.
(and the clad kennedy sets have rinse spots which are a discoloration from the mint... and unknown if they are pre- or post- striking. They are generally looked down upon and affect the grade as a bag mark would, imo)
so there is full disclosure and my analysis of the grades.
I tried pictures, but they do not show from my phone. They are small enough the camera and loupe would have to be attempted. I don't have time for that. The black is pinpoint, but it is black. You can't miss it... like a red spot on a white cashmere sweater. The other stuff on the 70 coin is large enough positioned such that they can't be missed either. Perhaps someone was holdering coins after shredding paper while wearing a cotton shirt.
<< <i>That's why I DONT buy labels /grades and buy coins I like. No matter how many times a modern coin is graded it should ALWAYS be the same. Just goes to show you how crazy the gradeing game is. Pass
Do graders flip a coin .. heads 70 tails 69. Seems to be the case. >>
processes are improving. I hope that grades are grades and the "70" idea and complaints do not sway anyone away from denoting a 70 when it is deserved.
as for the comment.... even at 69/70 the grade is a human's opinion. Opinions can differ and change.
<< <i>You can't miss it... like a red spot on a white cashmere sweater. The other stuff on the 70 coin is large enough positioned such that they can't be missed either. Perhaps someone was holdering coins after shredding paper while wearing a cotton shirt./q]
And there is the truth
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy. >>
It's going to keep being suggested and I'm going to keep arguing against it.
a line for lottery tickets will be longer than the line for 1000 coins. It could be 2,000 long.... ,5,000 long .... 10,000 long or more and people line up to get lottery tickets.
What you think will alleviate a mess will make it worse.
PLUS! the dealers can pay the line standers less for a lottery ticket than waiting for the purchase because they line will move faster and anyone might be able to redeem the ticket. You think the Mint is going to want to write down the names of 1,000 or more names and addresses on each ticket stub? Maybe not, maybe.
You think the TPGs will require a receipt with ID? What if the purchases were made AFTER the original person made the purchase instead of it being a paid line standers? That is a fatal flaw in that idea.
The last paragraph is a two parter. The very last part would result in nothing different than what just happened. The paid line standers can simply be required to have ID. The result will still be a mob scene.
The first parts of both paragraphs require the mint's actions. The mint would gather into to prevent multiple attempts. Plus it could be used to be sure the online order limit and the in person limit add to the required household limit. The Mint's future system will be able to do something like linking a CC to an online account. The problems here are the same as before. The paid line standers can simply have an online account made. They then stand in line as usual.
None of the ideas fix the issue of paid line standers.
It wasn't this bad when they did online/phone only for hot items. They need to go back to that system. Too bad that Peterson loves show sales these mint releases generate. I don't see it happening. The ANA and PNG and other shows may have to ask the Mint to take a more remote location or bring a lot more security... or deny them a booth if they insist on a hot item sales plan for a show.... due to security reasons. and public safety.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
In an article I remember a mint spokesperson saying they could not do a lottery legally. But the ANA could limit dealer credentials to a reasonable numbers and not the hundreds that were issued. The mint could require a mint account and ID. The TPGs could require receipts and ID.
Or
The mint could just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet. They could take orders following any limits that were set like 5 per person or house hold while confirming drivers license or ID preventing returning for multiple attempts. The receipt could even say bought at the show so the TPGs could still run the label game...with the receipt.
Non of the fiasco that took place in Chicago would have happened if they followed this policy. >>
It's going to keep being suggested and I'm going to keep arguing against it.
a line for lottery tickets will be longer than the line for 1000 coins. It could be 2,000 long.... ,5,000 long .... 10,000 long or more and people line up to get lottery tickets.
What you think will alleviate a mess will make it worse.
PLUS! the dealers can pay the line standers less for a lottery ticket than waiting for the purchase because they line will move faster and anyone might be able to redeem the ticket. You think the Mint is going to want to write down the names of 1,000 or more names and addresses on each ticket stub? Maybe not, maybe.
You think the TPGs will require a receipt with ID? What if the purchases were made AFTER the original person made the purchase instead of it being a paid line standers? That is a fatal flaw in that idea.
The last paragraph is a two parter. The very last part would result in nothing different than what just happened. The paid line standers can simply be required to have ID. The result will still be a mob scene.
The first parts of both paragraphs require the mint's actions. The mint would gather into to prevent multiple attempts. Plus it could be used to be sure the online order limit and the in person limit add to the required household limit. The Mint's future system will be able to do something like linking a CC to an online account. The problems here are the same as before. The paid line standers can simply have an online account made. They then stand in line as usual.
None of the ideas fix the issue of paid line standers.
It wasn't this bad when they did online/phone only for hot items. They need to go back to that system. Too bad that Peterson loves show sales these mint releases generate. I don't see it happening. The ANA and PNG and other shows may have to ask the Mint to take a more remote location or bring a lot more security... or deny them a booth if they insist on a hot item sales plan for a show.... due to security reasons. and public safety. >>
I think we are basically on the same page. I say:
The mint sould just not sell coins at shows that had not started delivery through normal channels yet.
I think You say about the same thing but maybe a little longer being delivered. Correct me if I'm mis-remembering.
The next big release will be the 4 coin Kennedy set. It should be the first test of the new online ordering system too. I agree that Peterson like the attention for the mint. (and maybe himself too) So no mater if we solve it here they will use their own logic which will never be explained.
Is there a show around the middle of October to the first week of November? It's almost a given the mint will do a show release again for the remaining Kennedy set.
I'll go with you that the TPGs requiring ID match to receipt won't work. But the paid line standers could be solved , for the most part, by limiting dealers to credentials for those necessary to run their booth, not hundreds. Not every employee of the dealer getting 50 or more sets, just the one dealer representative. And they must be named, not anonymous. Line standers would also need a mint account with valid address and credit card. Busing in random people just wouldn't work.
Do you think this would reduce the line?
The 8/22 coin world article said HSN only had 14? (I'm guessing those are ANA FDOI 70s in ANACS)
Hmmmm
Hsn coin collectors page shows Anacs FDOI pr70 @ 388 for 2800 an 69's @ 298 for 2300
And an unknown number of pr69 Chicago for 3500. I would have loved to hear how these were made to be $3500 special.
ANACS appears to have a different standard for First Day of Issue than NGC does and it would more accurately be described as "first day shipped by the mint". I figured that out when HSN had 2014 of the 2 coin Kennedy clad sets graded SP69 FDOI. There is no way they got 2014 sets standing in line in Philadelphia or Denver, much less had that many sets grade so well out of a larger number of sets.
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
We can remind them of the Military Draft lottery they put me through in the 60's
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think the goverment can do a lottery can they? We shall see but I do see a major uproar if they try to do a lottery. >>
We can remind them of the Military Draft lottery they put me through in the 60's >>
Touché