What do you think? New 8 Reales.
jmj3esq
Posts: 5,421 ✭
I have wanted one of these and finally found a real one locally that I could see in hand. I had to have it for the history behind them as they circulated in the colonies before the Mint. It's in pretty good condition too. I have no idea how to grade them. I believe it will be sent to PCGS.
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Hoard the keys.
Lance.
I don't personally see any reason for them Gennie-ing it though.
Bear in mind that I have owned exactly one Pillar dollar in the past.
Cool piece of history, of course. I agree that every collection of early US coins should include one.
Did you know some people think the dollar sign came from the pillar with the banner wrapped around it?
TD
I wouldn't kick it out of bed. Nice coin. "1753" in case someone is confused on the date.
Mike
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
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<< <i>Very nice, original piece. A bit weakly struck in the centers, but EF-45 as far as what happened to it after it was struck. Might possibly AU-50, but I doubt it.
TD >>
Really? That high? Maybe I didn't take the strike into consideration.
On second look, I'll up my WAG to VF30-35. EF-something wouldn't surprise me, either, I guess.
You know I'm all but throwing darts in the dark anyway. But I do not see AU there. Nice coin, though.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Latin American Collection
<< <i>PCGS has determined this to be a counterfeit. If so it's the best my dealer and I have ever seen. real disheartening considering I really wanted this coin for my personal collection. >>
The 1753 in the OP? That is scary!
<< <i>PCGS has determined this to be a counterfeit. If so it's the best my dealer and I have ever seen. real disheartening considering I really wanted this coin for my personal collection. >>
Are you talking about the 1753 in the first post? And are you speaking on behalf of the OP? Or are you the OP?
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>PCGS has determined this to be a counterfeit. If so it's the best my dealer and I have ever seen. real disheartening considering I really wanted this coin for my personal collection. >>
And where did you get this information, you are not the original poster?
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The hammered 8 reales is mine. The 1753 I was hoping to own when it came back from PCGS. Now I gotta get a 4th opinion or just look to find another one. Perhaps already certified as genuine.
Tom
Perhaps the edge of the OP coin would be telling, and doesn't look right at all.
Coin Rarities Online
The portrait style Spanish-American eight-reales was one of the most well known, and extensively circulated silver trade coins that the world has ever seen. Produced in Spain's new world colonies from 1772 to 1825, the coin made Spain a major player on the world financial stage in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. This was due in large measure to the fact this coin accounted for about sixty percent of the annual silver production worldwide. The popularity and general acceptance of this particular coin – the portrait style piece-of-eight – made it the object of forgers who operated in all areas of the globe. It was a coin not merely counterfeited in the countries of origin, but in all of the places where it was accepted as currency in day-to-day transactions. It was produced in small back-room operations and in large factories. It was produced at times in utter secrecy, yet at other times it was more or less an “open secret.” It was produced as both worthless base metal copies and as “perfect” imitations containing the correct amount of silver. It has been made to circulate as currency, as well as to specifically deceive collectors. The fascinating story of these counterfeit issues created from shortly after the coin appeared until the present, is the subject of this book. The author, Robert Gurney, known to many coin collectors as “Swamper Bob,” has been a lifelong enthusiast of the series. His interest commenced as a teen when he met and spoke to one of the forgers who actually made these coins for a living in the 1920's. The story may at times not seem possible, but the newest scientific tests available provide conclusive evidence for the production of counterfeit versions made for circulation as late as 1930. With contributions made by several notable collectors, including Richard August, John Lorenzo and Gordon Nichols, this book documents the four different classifications of counterfeit eight-reales developed by the author to fit the needs of this particular series. The book illustrates and describes literally hundreds of different types of counterfeits known to have circulated alongside the genuine versions. It specifically expands upon the Thirty-nine varieties noted by Dr. John L. Riddell as existing in circulation in New Orleans in 1845, and swells that number to some 589 varieties. This book was not written just for coin collectors, the subject is actually much broader. It is at its heart a history of the coin covering a period of 240 years of use and production. It is also the story of the methods and reasons for producing both counterfeits and forgeries during that same interval. The players and their motivations for the production of deceptive copies for over 240 years, provides insight into human nature. The book is presented as a start to a long needed discussion - one that is decades overdue. It is only a start. The author hopes that this publication will bring old counterfeits out of their hiding places and into the light of day, where the varieties from childishly crude to artistically superb can be appreciated by everyone. Solamente el comienzo!
I don't know if it's just blurriness or shake or what, but the letters, especially on the reverse, look awfully fat and puffy (i.e. not crisp and sharp). I'd also like to see the edges to see if the pattern is correct. Having said that, I am by no means an expert on these - I only own one myself but I've looked at quite a few. It may be that this is how they are supposed to look for that year and mint, I just don't know.
Edit: I just noticed that the OP was an old post and the coin in question was indeed a fake. In a selfish way, I'm glad to hear that in that it validated my counterfeit radar going off when I looked at it (see my comments above)
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>I am related to the op. The op was banned some time ago. I personally know the 1753 PCGS says it's counterfeit. The 1753 was sent in with the hammered piece in the other post. Sorry for the confusion.
The hammered 8 reales is mine. The 1753 I was hoping to own when it came back from PCGS. Now I gotta get a 4th opinion or just look to find another one. Perhaps already certified as genuine. >>
I'm stuck on why jmj3esq was bammed? Seemed like an awfully nice guy to me.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I have seen counterfeit Pillar Dollars, and they were in an antique shop. The problems were pretty obvious, but the owner was not about to admit it.
Looking at your coin it almost looks like it has a reeded edge. If it does, that's a problem. These coins have a sort of flowery edge that was added before or after they were struck.
<< <i>I was confused on the date. Nice coin. How do you get that into the Coin World holder? I have had problems with them. Too stiff. Difficult to push them into the holes. >>
The big problem with Coin World holders is that they can lead novices to think that the coin is certified when it is not.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>So.....the OP's coin could still be 150 years old................that's not a bad thing, is it? >>
Don't think thay could make that high quality a counterfeit 150 years ago.
<< <i>I was confused on the date. Nice coin. How do you get that into the Coin World holder? I have had problems with them. Too stiff. Difficult to push them into the holes. >>
Newer CW holders have softer plastic than when they first came out. What you need to do is put the coin on a desk, flex the insert so that the opening grips the coin only on the left and right side, then slowly un-flex the insert. It should sort of grab the coin as you release it.
Bummed about the OP coin being bad. It's quite attractive. I'd like to know the diagnostics that gave it away. Is the lettering too bulbous?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Bummed about the OP coin being bad. It's quite attractive. I'd like to know the diagnostics that gave it away. Is the lettering too bulbous? >>
The lettering being too bulbous (I described it as "puffy" and not "crisp/sharp" above) was one of the things I didn't like. I also thought the denticles were a little too regular - in other words, they should have been more crude and irregular (kinda the opposite of what looks fake in more modern coins). Finally, although you can't really see the edges clearly, the edge pattern usually extrudes into the rim more - the depressions are visible on the rims.
Here is my example:
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>
<< <i>So.....the OP's coin could still be 150 years old................that's not a bad thing, is it? >>
Don't think thay could make that high quality a counterfeit 150 years ago. >>
So...what's your take on colonialjohn's post?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
not the pillar type. The Carolus portrait 8 reales were subject to high quality counterfeiting in the 1800s,
because the Chinese valued them at 20% above their silver value.
(There are contemporary counterfeits of the Pillar type also, but they did not have the high quality technology of the 1800s at play).
And of course there are current numismatic forgeries of the pillar dollar, made in China.
See links in his thread on World Coins:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=926589
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection