<< <i>I see. And who here "wants" this find to be a result of a crime? I believe I was, as Colonel Jessup (movie, not Cu Forum) said "crystal clear".
I love the thought that a cache of amazing "top pops" would be discovered and rock the world of that series. I love the idea that this kind of treasure chest is possible in the coin world.
"Bless those who cannot see due to affliction. Teach those who cannot see because of conjecture." ~saintguru
>>
...in all reality...every chunk of gold ever retrieved from US soil is the "result of a crime," yet we still have gold coins
This is like talking to my ex-wife. No logic or common-sense, just "what ifs" and "yeah buts".
For whatever nickel or dime it's worth I've been an extremely successful collector of coins with an earned pedigree, an independent researcher and historian of modern gold. I co-founded the "20th Century Gold Coin Club" with Dr. Steven Duckor now known as the "Rare Gold Coin Club" whose membership includes many of the most accomplished and respected people in numismatics, many all of you would know. I have read, written, been written about and been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg as an educated expert. I have assisted PCGS in forensic projects regarding some of the most coveted coins that exist. My passion, even after I sold my collection, is a great as ever. And my respect for these metallic orbs is equal to that of William H. Woodin;
"Coins are the metallic footsteps if the history of nations."
We all are allowed opinions. Mine isn't to be <<au contraire>> or emanating from a conspiratorial dogma. I am objective and I see the big picture. Disagree all you want but don't believe that I'm just tossing thoughts around to provoke. I do that at night with aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar.
<< <i>This is like talking to my ex-wife. No logic or common-sense, just "what ifs" and "yeah buts".
For whatever nickel or dime it's worth I've been an extremely successful collector of coins with an earned pedigree, an independent researcher and historian of modern gold. I co-founded the "20th Century Gold Coin Club" with Dr. Steven Duckor now known as the "Rare Gold Coin Club" whose membership includes many of the most accomplished and respected people in numismatics, many all of you would know. I have read, written, been written about and been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg as an educated expert. I have assisted PCGS in forensic projects regarding some of the most coveted coins that exist. My passion, even after I sold my collection, is a great as ever. And my respect for these metallic orbs is equal to that of William H. Woodin;
"Coins are the metallic footsteps if the history of nations."
We all are allowed opinions. Mine isn't to be <<au contraire>> or emanating from a conspiratorial dogma. I am objective and I see the big picture. Disagree all you want but don't believe that I'm just tossing thoughts around to provoke. I do that at night with aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar.
Neither saint nor guru am i >>
...I don't collect gold...I know that you are a highly respected Heavyweight Champion in the genre...I also witnessed you "jump to conclusions" in this thread in a matter of pages/moments...I also couldn't agree more that "we are all allowed opinions."...I also believe that aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar should be tossed around on a nightly basis
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20.
<< <i> These are just stories people know about... there are undoubtedly others no one knows about. >>
All interesting possibilities, or it could just be some guy that did not trust banks. >>
Exactly. The point is that there are lots of places this gold could have come from. The fact that that it was a lot of money 120 years ago doesn't mean it was stolen, much less that it was stolen from the government. Not only were there people with that kind of money, but there were people in that region who are known to have BURIED that kind of money. 1890s America was largely a cash economy, a place with no income tax, and a healthy skepticism of banks... this could easily have been the profits of a long-running business. That to me is far more likely than claiming it's the gold Dimmick stole -- a claim for which there is absolutely no evidence. >>
Your comment gave me a thought.....the Panic of 1893 caused a run on gold from the U.S. Treasury, per Wikipedia:
The last date in the hoard is 1894. Perhaps somebody who saw banks closing their doors and the U.S. Treasury in trouble might have gathered up as much gold as possible and buried it in the ground.
ust speculation, but more plausible than the Dimmick speculation.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
Many of the coins most probably came directly from the mint or to a lessor probability, the bank. Clapp got his from the mint. Many of these are on par with the quality of Clapps. These coins didn't rustle around on some stagecoach or train. And they didn't move over the 40+ year accumulation period. If it was a collector from the 1850's to the 90's getting these as they were minted there probably would be knowledge of that collector. That 86s 10lib is almost as fine as Clapps 94s 5lib. Just exactly how does a 66 NM 20 stay in that shape unless it's cared for?
I highly doubt the theory that they were an accumulation outside the mint over decades by a wealthy individual and kept pristine then abandoned in the dirt. Illogical to even propose that scenario.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
Many of the coins most probably came directly from the mint or to a lessor probability, the bank. Clapp got his from the mint. Many of these are on par with the quality of Clapps. These coins didn't rustle around on some stagecoach or train. And they didn't move over the 40+ year accumulation period. If it was a collector from the 1850's to the 90's getting these as they were minted there probably would be knowledge of that collector. That 86s 10lib is almost as fine as Clapps 94s 5lib. Just exactly how does a 66 NM 20 stay in that shape unless it's cared for?
I highly doubt the theory that they were an accumulation outside the mint over decades by a wealthy individual and kept pristine then abandoned in the dirt. Illogical to even propose that scenario. >>
What is your point? I'm talking about the mint state preservation on a third of the coins. Have you looked?
I'm just a generic gold collector back to the 1830's. I don't have the bonifides of many here. I'm just a lowly collector for 52 years back to 1961. I find it far fetched to believe an unknown individual could obtain, preserve and accumulate this many gold coins without being known and then just decide that the dirt was the best home for them.
You believe what you want.
The story presented regarding these coins reminds me of a slice of swiss cheese.
"Honey, don't reach down and touch that rusty can". I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. ...when is the last time you told your wife not to bend over to pick something up?
Just walking their dog and find a 1866NM ms 20lib. Okey dokey.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
>>
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
<< <i> These are just stories people know about... there are undoubtedly others no one knows about. >>
All interesting possibilities, or it could just be some guy that did not trust banks. >>
Exactly. The point is that there are lots of places this gold could have come from. The fact that that it was a lot of money 120 years ago doesn't mean it was stolen, much less that it was stolen from the government. Not only were there people with that kind of money, but there were people in that region who are known to have BURIED that kind of money. 1890s America was largely a cash economy, a place with no income tax, and a healthy skepticism of banks... this could easily have been the profits of a long-running business. That to me is far more likely than claiming it's the gold Dimmick stole -- a claim for which there is absolutely no evidence. >>
I will agree with this (not that it counts for much).
Then you have this family airloom to be past down a couple three generations while leading up to proibition and the gold act of 33 and such Someone thinking these have been past down from my great grandfather or great,great grandfather and if the govt wants em they can have em if they can find em then dies not telling anyone.
From what ive read/heard even today there's people that dont like the govt.
And was'nt there in the past year a bunch of doubles found in a celling over seas were those stolen too?
Dansco BU washie set empty holes: 32d,32s,34d,35d,36d,37,37d,37s,38,38s,39s.
Not totally relavent to gold per se, but more to the idea of people stashing securities away:When my Uncle died we had to search his house high/low for his GE stock. He had hidden it in the attic behind a wall. Took weeks to locate it there. Had experienced the Great Depression.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>The highly illogical theory is that two totally different groups of coins MUST be one and the same just because people want them to be! >>
...This
Erik >>
Hell, I don't "want" them to be stolen either -- the government may stash them away instead of selling to the public. But you can't ignore the proverbial elephant in the room.
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20. >>
As guru pointed out, coins were frequently exchanged (old for new). Dimmick may have purposely taken the circulated ones and spent those first to avoid detection.
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20. >>
As guru pointed out, coins were frequently exchanged (old for new). Dimmick may have purposely taken the circulated ones and spent those first to avoid detection. >>
1. Worn coins? Exchanged smaller amounts of gold nuggets and dust for equal measure at a nearby trading post.
2. New coins? Hitched his mule and wagon and went to SF for supplies when the "hoarder" had mined a larger amount of nuggets and dust. Exchanged the raw gold at the mint for newly minted coin.
3. Went back to cabin and buried another tin can full near the tree.
A couple of comments have exclaimed surprise about how amazing some of the coins are... top 1% of 1%. I don't see how that matters. If you're pulling coins out of circulation as they're made, from the bank or even from the Mint office (legitimately) you'll get nice stuff. The 2013 and 2014 dated coins in my pocket look pretty darn nice. Just because most $20 Libs out there are all hacked up doesn't mean they were made that way! The other thing is that he could have asked for the nicest pieces from the bank or whoever. There's nothing strange about that at all. I do the exact same thing when I'm in the bank getting a $50 or $100 bill to give to someone in a card for a birthday present, etc. In fact I did the same thing last year when giving my godsons ASEs -- I looked through a handful of airtite ones to pick out the nicest ones. To me this is so much more likely than the far-fetched idea that this hoard is somehow the six bags of $20 gold coins that Dimmick stole.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
What do you make of the can hanging from the tree, the strange-shaped rock pointing the way, and 10 paces to the treasure?
True, and if so, coincidence? Or false, to add allure to the story?
If true, and intentional by the burier, there is only one reason: so it can be relayed to someone else and the treasure found. It is unlikely the burier couldn't remember where he hid the gold and this was a note-to-self.
Assuming its true, why did the burier do this? Who was he hoping to tell? A relative or friend, or co-conspirator? And if this information was given to someone why wasn't the treasure later unearthed? Maybe he died before he could pass on the information? The treasure map was destroyed or lost? Lance.
<< <i>What do you make of the can hanging from the tree, the strange-shaped rock pointing the way, and 10 paces to the treasure?
True, and if so, coincidence? Or false, to add allure to the story?
If true, and intentional by the burier, there is only one reason: so it can be relayed to someone else and the treasure found. It is unlikely the burier couldn't remember where he hid the gold and this was a note-to-self.
Assuming its true, why did the burier do this? Who was he hoping to tell? A relative or friend, or co-conspirator? And if this information was given to someone why wasn't the treasure later unearthed? Maybe he died before he could pass on the information? The treasure map was destroyed or lost? Lance. >>
It meant whatever the guy who buried it meant it to mean. Ever look at the same piece of land in February, June and October? Foliage changes, and appearances change with it. Snow happens.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
These coins were "restored" by Kagin using what someone wrote was a "secret recipe" - not having been to NCS or PCGS conservation, these coins are guaranteed to be stable/problem free? Eric
Links the coins to the theft. Further states that the coins were stored in chronological order-when possible- rare "trade in" dates included in a collection at the mint. 1866NM 20lib was never intended to leave the mint as it was minted as a tribute coin regarding Lincolns assassination.
Further in the article from The Bulletin newspaper circa 1900 states that after the theft of 30k, SF Mint still had $504,000 in inventory.
After the theft was uncovered the mint folks did a thorough accounting/inventory search. It will be interesting to see if the trial transcripts reveal enough info to determine if these exact coins were missing from the mint vaults. If the they can determine that only a specific weight of gold went AWOL, they will be SOL.
Just read government says coins were stolen and wants them back! This has 1993 gold coin confiscation writen all over it. Put dozens of Gov. agents on this one.
Looks like all they did was to verify that all of the coins were DEs and weigh them. If the NM coin was among the missing coins, they didn't know it. How many were minted? Could one or more of them have been given out in exchange for gold dust/nuggets or other coin? Will the cashier's records show this? Are there any others and if so, where are they?
I read 5 cans. Couple want so donate money to help the hungry folks up in the Sierra foothills. Shame the Government will probably step in for a confiscation of "stolen" property only to send the money into some bottomless pit.
per google, it's 132+ miles to the Sutter Creek, CA area from San Francisco. Why would a thief travel 132 miles, by horse or buggy, to bury $30,000 in gold. Why not bury it somewhere close, like up on San Bruno Mt.???
There's nothing special about a 66-S no motto double eagle. There are plenty known in AU and even another MS62 known. To infer the coin is evidence the coins were stolen from the Mint because it wasn't supposed to be released is pure hogwash.
<< <i>So far I haven't read anything but wild speculation that ties these coins to the theft at the mint. I want to see some facts. >>
Hmmmm, facts? The gubmint has none. But speculation, and conjecture should be able to sway the jury (if it goes to trial). After all, we are talking about Callyforny-yah.
The June 2006 Numismatist may have an interesting story about the theft that should answer some questions if someone would check their back issues.
The first source for Mint practices and procedures back then for my money would be Roger Burdette; RWB as he is/was known here. His research of Mint records is unsurpassed and this general timeframe would have been included in his work for his Renaissance of American Coinage series. I think the correspondence files between the San Francisco Mint and the Treasury Department would be very interesting for this time period.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
Well the news article on yahoo says The couple found it on their Tiburon property which is a city in Marin county right across the bridge from San Fransico! The Dimmick theft sounds more possible again to me.
<< <i>There's nothing special about a 66-S no motto double eagle. There are plenty known in AU and even another MS62 known. To infer the coin is evidence the coins were stolen from the Mint because it wasn't supposed to be released is pure hogwash.
Was it an 1866-S NM or an 1866 NM? If it was something very rare that shouldn't have been released, you'd think that an expert who wrote a book/s about gold coins wold have looked into it closer. Something seems amiss somewhere.
Let's say that someone (today) were to steal $1,500,000 from a bank (unmarked bills). Two weeks later, in the general vicinity of the crime, a couple finds approximately $1,500,000 in cash. There ain't much doubt where the money came from. With 100 years in between there still should be little doubt were the money came from.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables.
<< <i>Let's say that someone (today) were to steal $1,500,000 from a bank (unmarked bills). Two weeks later, in the general vicinity of the crime, a couple finds approximately $1,500,000 in cash. There ain't much doubt where the money came from. With 100 years in between there still should be little doubt were the money came from.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables. >>
Except that odds aren't evidence and the evidence provided linking the 2 events is near ZERO.
<< <i>Well the news article on yahoo says The couple found it on their Tiburon property which is a city in Marin county right across the bridge from San Fransico! The Dimmick theft sounds more possible again to me. >>
That is 16 miles from the Mint by land/bridge route, less than half that if by boat
If it should turn out that the Saddle Ridge coins are the stolen coins, would John and Mary Langbord have any recourse to recover anything from those who did the due diligence and declared the coins unencumbered?
<< <i>Let's say that someone (today) were to steal $1,500,000 from a bank (unmarked bills). Two weeks later, in the general vicinity of the crime, a couple finds approximately $1,500,000 in cash. There ain't much doubt where the money came from. With 100 years in between there still should be little doubt were the money came from.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables. >>
Except that odds aren't evidence and the evidence provided linking the 2 events is near ZERO. >>
When the legal standard is the preponderance of the evidence, or the greater weight of the evidence, the "odds" are the be-all-end-all. Saying there is no evidence is like saying that the $1,500,000 in cash located in the area from my previous post is not evidence.
I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine. He has been following this event. Three of his officers were fired because they didn't report $600 in cash on the sidewalk while on foot patrol. His dismissals held up through the appeals court. The law in California requires found money or treasure to be reported to the police for a claim of ownership.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability.
It's seems a lot people are basing their opinions on their perceived rarity of coin hoards. If you think coin hoards are not that rare, then there isn't much more than circumstantial evidence to tie Dimmick with the hoard. If you believe coin hoards are very rare, then the conclusion is that it must be the Dimmick coins as where else could it have come from.
My personal opinion for what it's worth (nothing) it that it is likely these are not related to Dimmick, but would not be totally shocked if they were. The doubters do raise some legitimate questions with the Dimmick connection and are not shadows on the moon or burning temperature of jet fuel type, crazy theories.
At the end of the day, we really don't have enough evidence and it's not clear that enough evidence can every be found to 100% conclusively prove one way or another.
<< <i>I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine. He has been following this event. Three of his officers were fired because they didn't report $600 in cash on the sidewalk while on foot patrol. His dismissals held up through the appeals court. The law in California requires found money or treasure to be reported to the police for a claim of ownership.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability. >>
<< <i>I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine. He has been following this event. Three of his officers were fired because they didn't report $600 in cash on the sidewalk while on foot patrol. His dismissals held up through the appeals court. The law in California requires found money or treasure to be reported to the police for a claim of ownership.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability. >>
Maybe someone from California can answer that questions. I do know that States differ in how they handle/classify lost property, mislaid property, and treasure trove. I have to assume that this issue would be the first researched by an attorney presented with this situation. Given the time from the discovery to the publication of the story, there better have been some work being done behind the scenes.
One other point. If the coins were NOT stolen the owner of the coins was a wealthy dude. If the owner were to bury his money it's fair to assume they would have been buried on the owner's property. Working backwards it would be quite simple to figure out whose coins they were.
The average yearly earnings were $490 in 1900. This was a ton of wealth for that time.
I thought the 'man & wife' said they found this hoard while out walking their dog in the Sierra foothills.
Where do the lies start and stop? Belvedere is no foothill community. I've had my share of gin & tonics at the bar at SFYC when I raced a Cal boat in the 70's from there.
Comments
<< <i>I see. And who here "wants" this find to be a result of a crime? I believe I was, as Colonel Jessup (movie, not Cu Forum) said "crystal clear".
I love the thought that a cache of amazing "top pops" would be discovered and rock the world of that series. I love the idea that this kind of treasure chest is possible in the coin world.
"Bless those who cannot see due to affliction. Teach those who cannot see because of conjecture."
~saintguru
...in all reality...every chunk of gold ever retrieved from US soil is the "result of a crime," yet we still have gold coins
Erik
For whatever nickel or dime it's worth I've been an extremely successful collector of coins with an earned pedigree, an independent researcher and historian of modern gold. I co-founded the "20th Century Gold Coin Club" with Dr. Steven Duckor now known as the "Rare Gold Coin Club" whose membership includes many of the most accomplished and respected people in numismatics, many all of you would know. I have read, written, been written about and been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg as an educated expert. I have assisted PCGS in forensic projects regarding some of the most coveted coins that exist. My passion, even after I sold my collection, is a great as ever. And my respect for these metallic orbs is equal to that of William H. Woodin;
"Coins are the metallic footsteps if the history of nations."
We all are allowed opinions. Mine isn't to be <<au contraire>> or emanating from a conspiratorial dogma. I am objective and I see the big picture. Disagree all you want but don't believe that I'm just tossing thoughts around to provoke. I do that at night with aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar.
Neither saint nor guru am i
<< <i>This is like talking to my ex-wife. No logic or common-sense, just "what ifs" and "yeah buts".
For whatever nickel or dime it's worth I've been an extremely successful collector of coins with an earned pedigree, an independent researcher and historian of modern gold. I co-founded the "20th Century Gold Coin Club" with Dr. Steven Duckor now known as the "Rare Gold Coin Club" whose membership includes many of the most accomplished and respected people in numismatics, many all of you would know. I have read, written, been written about and been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg as an educated expert. I have assisted PCGS in forensic projects regarding some of the most coveted coins that exist. My passion, even after I sold my collection, is a great as ever. And my respect for these metallic orbs is equal to that of William H. Woodin;
"Coins are the metallic footsteps if the history of nations."
We all are allowed opinions. Mine isn't to be <<au contraire>> or emanating from a conspiratorial dogma. I am objective and I see the big picture. Disagree all you want but don't believe that I'm just tossing thoughts around to provoke. I do that at night with aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar.
Neither saint nor guru am i >>
...I don't collect gold...I know that you are a highly respected Heavyweight Champion in the genre...I also witnessed you "jump to conclusions" in this thread in a matter of pages/moments...I also couldn't agree more that "we are all allowed opinions."...I also believe that aged rum, a few bum friends and a good cigar should be tossed around on a nightly basis
Erik
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20.
<< <i>
<< <i> These are just stories people know about... there are undoubtedly others no one knows about. >>
All interesting possibilities, or it could just be some guy that did not trust banks. >>
Exactly. The point is that there are lots of places this gold could have come from. The fact that that it was a lot of money 120 years ago doesn't mean it was stolen, much less that it was stolen from the government. Not only were there people with that kind of money, but there were people in that region who are known to have BURIED that kind of money. 1890s America was largely a cash economy, a place with no income tax, and a healthy skepticism of banks... this could easily have been the profits of a long-running business. That to me is far more likely than claiming it's the gold Dimmick stole -- a claim for which there is absolutely no evidence. >>
Your comment gave me a thought.....the Panic of 1893 caused a run on gold from the U.S. Treasury, per Wikipedia:
link
The last date in the hoard is 1894. Perhaps somebody who saw banks closing their doors and the U.S. Treasury in trouble might have gathered up as much gold as possible and buried it in the ground.
ust speculation, but more plausible than the Dimmick speculation.
Many of the coins most probably came directly from the mint or to a lessor probability, the bank. Clapp got his from the mint. Many of these are on par with the quality of Clapps. These coins didn't rustle around on some stagecoach or train. And they didn't move over the 40+ year accumulation period. If it was a collector from the 1850's to the 90's getting these as they were minted there probably would be knowledge of that collector. That 86s 10lib is almost as fine as Clapps 94s 5lib. Just exactly how does a 66 NM 20 stay in that shape unless it's cared for?
I highly doubt the theory that they were an accumulation outside the mint over decades by a wealthy individual and kept pristine then abandoned in the dirt. Illogical to even propose that scenario.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
Many of the coins most probably came directly from the mint or to a lessor probability, the bank. Clapp got his from the mint. Many of these are on par with the quality of Clapps. These coins didn't rustle around on some stagecoach or train. And they didn't move over the 40+ year accumulation period. If it was a collector from the 1850's to the 90's getting these as they were minted there probably would be knowledge of that collector. That 86s 10lib is almost as fine as Clapps 94s 5lib. Just exactly how does a 66 NM 20 stay in that shape unless it's cared for?
I highly doubt the theory that they were an accumulation outside the mint over decades by a wealthy individual and kept pristine then abandoned in the dirt. Illogical to even propose that scenario. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
1852 Naw'lins Mint - XF45
74-CC VF20
What is your point? I'm talking about the mint state preservation on a third of the coins. Have you looked?
I'm just a generic gold collector back to the 1830's. I don't have the bonifides of many here. I'm just a lowly collector for 52 years back to 1961. I find it far fetched to believe an unknown individual could obtain, preserve and accumulate this many gold coins without being known and then just
decide that the dirt was the best home for them.
You believe what you want.
The story presented regarding these coins reminds me of a slice of swiss cheese.
"Honey, don't reach down and touch that rusty can". I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. ...when is the last time you told your wife not to bend over to pick something up?
Just walking their dog and find a 1866NM ms 20lib. Okey dokey.
<< <i>This one here be plumb wored out!
74-CC VF20
Its a longshot but maybe I might be able to afford that one. But probably it's some $70,000 rarity.
<< <i>
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Click and then Scroll down for firstmint's Post Re: the coin's designer, Longacre, having preserved this $20 1850
<< <i>
<< <i> These are just stories people know about... there are undoubtedly others no one knows about. >>
All interesting possibilities, or it could just be some guy that did not trust banks. >>
Exactly. The point is that there are lots of places this gold could have come from. The fact that that it was a lot of money 120 years ago doesn't mean it was stolen, much less that it was stolen from the government. Not only were there people with that kind of money, but there were people in that region who are known to have BURIED that kind of money. 1890s America was largely a cash economy, a place with no income tax, and a healthy skepticism of banks... this could easily have been the profits of a long-running business. That to me is far more likely than claiming it's the gold Dimmick stole -- a claim for which there is absolutely no evidence. >>
I will agree with this (not that it counts for much).
Then you have this family airloom to be past down a couple three generations while leading up to proibition and the gold act of 33 and such
Someone thinking these have been past down from my great grandfather or great,great grandfather and if the govt wants em they can have em if they can find em
then dies not telling anyone.
From what ive read/heard even today there's people that dont like the govt.
And was'nt there in the past year a bunch of doubles found in a celling over seas were those stolen too?
32d,32s,34d,35d,36d,37,37d,37s,38,38s,39s.
<< <i>
<< <i>The highly illogical theory is that two totally different groups of coins MUST be one and the same just because people want them to be! >>
...This
Erik >>
Hell, I don't "want" them to be stolen either -- the government may stash them away instead of selling to the public. But you can't ignore the proverbial elephant in the room.
<< <i>If it was Dimmick, then why these circulated 1877-S; namely the EF40 & 45
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20.
As guru pointed out, coins were frequently exchanged (old for new). Dimmick may have purposely taken the circulated ones and spent those first to avoid detection.
<< <i>
<< <i>If it was Dimmick, then why these circulated 1877-S; namely the EF40 & 45
Yeah, I thought the majority were MS, but as Willis mentioned they are now populating the price guide (look for "+" signs by the different dates). They have segregated the Saddle Ridge discovery coins. I even noted a circ. 1876 $20.
As guru pointed out, coins were frequently exchanged (old for new). Dimmick may have purposely taken the circulated ones and spent those first to avoid detection. >>
1. Worn coins? Exchanged smaller amounts of gold nuggets and dust for equal measure at a nearby trading post.
2. New coins? Hitched his mule and wagon and went to SF for supplies when the "hoarder" had mined a larger amount of nuggets and dust. Exchanged the raw gold at the mint for newly minted coin.
3. Went back to cabin and buried another tin can full near the tree.
4. A grizzly came along and ate him one night.
5. Case closed.
True, and if so, coincidence? Or false, to add allure to the story?
If true, and intentional by the burier, there is only one reason: so it can be relayed to someone else and the treasure found. It is unlikely the burier couldn't remember where he hid the gold and this was a note-to-self.
Assuming its true, why did the burier do this? Who was he hoping to tell? A relative or friend, or co-conspirator? And if this information was given to someone why wasn't the treasure later unearthed? Maybe he died before he could pass on the information? The treasure map was destroyed or lost?
Lance.
<< <i>What do you make of the can hanging from the tree, the strange-shaped rock pointing the way, and 10 paces to the treasure?
True, and if so, coincidence? Or false, to add allure to the story?
If true, and intentional by the burier, there is only one reason: so it can be relayed to someone else and the treasure found. It is unlikely the burier couldn't remember where he hid the gold and this was a note-to-self.
Assuming its true, why did the burier do this? Who was he hoping to tell? A relative or friend, or co-conspirator? And if this information was given to someone why wasn't the treasure later unearthed? Maybe he died before he could pass on the information? The treasure map was destroyed or lost?
Lance. >>
It meant whatever the guy who buried it meant it to mean. Ever look at the same piece of land in February, June and October? Foliage changes, and appearances change with it. Snow happens.
Eric
Eric
Links the coins to the theft. Further states that the coins were stored in chronological order-when possible- rare "trade in" dates included in a collection at the mint. 1866NM 20lib was never intended to leave the mint as it was minted as a tribute coin regarding Lincolns assassination.
Further in the article from The Bulletin newspaper circa 1900 states that after the theft of 30k, SF Mint still had $504,000 in inventory.
This has 1993 gold coin confiscation writen all over it. Put dozens of Gov. agents on this one.
100% Positive BST transactions
Eric
<< <i>I have read five (most recently), six, seven and eight cans.
Eric >>
You'd a thunk Dimmick woulda used 6 equal sized cans, no?
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/03/03/gold-treasure-trove-shocker/
Link help appreciated.
<< <i>If you would like to read excerps from the 1900 newspaper article,
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/03/03/gold-treasure-trove-shocker/
Link help appreciated. >>
linktobotomy
Looks like all they did was to verify that all of the coins were DEs and weigh them. If the NM coin was among the missing coins, they didn't know it. How many were minted? Could one or more of them have been given out in exchange for gold dust/nuggets or other coin? Will the cashier's records show this? Are there any others and if so, where are they?
100% Positive BST transactions
NGC MS62 sold recently - no special status described
<< <i>So far I haven't read anything but wild speculation that ties these coins to the theft at the mint. I want to see some facts. >>
Hmmmm, facts? The gubmint has none. But speculation, and conjecture should be able to sway the jury (if it goes to trial). After all, we are talking about Callyforny-yah.
The first source for Mint practices and procedures back then for my money would be Roger Burdette; RWB as he is/was known here. His research of Mint records is unsurpassed and this general timeframe would have been included in his work for his Renaissance of American Coinage series. I think the correspondence files between the San Francisco Mint and the Treasury Department would be very interesting for this time period.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>There's nothing special about a 66-S no motto double eagle. There are plenty known in AU and even another MS62 known. To infer the coin is evidence the coins were stolen from the Mint because it wasn't supposed to be released is pure hogwash.
NGC MS62 sold recently - no special status described >>
Was it an 1866-S NM or an 1866 NM? If it was something very rare that shouldn't have been released, you'd think that an expert who wrote a book/s about gold coins wold have looked into it closer. Something seems amiss somewhere.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables.
<< <i>Let's say that someone (today) were to steal $1,500,000 from a bank (unmarked bills). Two weeks later, in the general vicinity of the crime, a couple finds approximately $1,500,000 in cash. There ain't much doubt where the money came from. With 100 years in between there still should be little doubt were the money came from.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables. >>
Except that odds aren't evidence and the evidence provided linking the 2 events is near ZERO.
<< <i>Well the news article on yahoo says The couple found it on their Tiburon property which is a city in Marin county right across the bridge from San Fransico! The Dimmick theft sounds more possible again to me. >>
That is 16 miles from the Mint by land/bridge route, less than half that if by boat
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's say that someone (today) were to steal $1,500,000 from a bank (unmarked bills). Two weeks later, in the general vicinity of the crime, a couple finds approximately $1,500,000 in cash. There ain't much doubt where the money came from. With 100 years in between there still should be little doubt were the money came from.
I realize that the passage of time leads to more intervening events, and the potential for another explanation, but the odds are overwhelming that the coins found are the stolen coins.
Any alternative explanation contains many more people involved, with knowledge of the events, and many more variables. >>
Except that odds aren't evidence and the evidence provided linking the 2 events is near ZERO. >>
When the legal standard is the preponderance of the evidence, or the greater weight of the evidence, the "odds" are the be-all-end-all. Saying there is no evidence is like saying that the $1,500,000 in cash located in the area from my previous post is not evidence.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability.
My personal opinion for what it's worth (nothing) it that it is likely these are not related to Dimmick, but would not be totally shocked if they were. The doubters do raise some legitimate questions with the Dimmick connection and are not shadows on the moon or burning temperature of jet fuel type, crazy theories.
At the end of the day, we really don't have enough evidence and it's not clear that enough evidence can every be found to 100% conclusively prove one way or another.
<< <i>I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine. He has been following this event. Three of his officers were fired because they didn't report $600 in cash on the sidewalk while on foot patrol. His dismissals held up through the appeals court. The law in California requires found money or treasure to be reported to the police for a claim of ownership.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability. >>
Do we know that the coins were not reported?
<< <i>I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine. He has been following this event. Three of his officers were fired because they didn't report $600 in cash on the sidewalk while on foot patrol. His dismissals held up through the appeals court. The law in California requires found money or treasure to be reported to the police for a claim of ownership.
My friend is the former chief of a city in SoCal.
It's game over. The coins will be seized shortly in all probability. >>
Maybe someone from California can answer that questions. I do know that States differ in how they handle/classify lost property, mislaid property, and treasure trove. I have to assume that this issue would be the first researched by an attorney presented with this situation. Given the time from the discovery to the publication of the story, there better have been some work being done behind the scenes.
The average yearly earnings were $490 in 1900. This was a ton of wealth for that time.
Where do the lies start and stop? Belvedere is no foothill community. I've had my share of gin & tonics at the bar at SFYC when I raced a Cal boat in the 70's from there.
The tale is getting leakier by the minute.