<< <i>I found it interesting that the coins were sorted by date. 1840-50s in the first can, and so on. Sure Dimmick could have sorted the bags afterwards but it leads me to believe someone assembled these over time.
Maybe a gold minder who traded in his gold findings at the bank (hence the UNC coins) and ferreted them away, slowly amassing a huge collection. I could see someone living out in the hills with not much to spend money on able to do something like this. What I'm not so sure about is how much access one would have to a bank passing out such clean UNC coins. >>
Could the public buy or trade for coins at the cashier's window in those days, just like Izzy Switt and others did later? If so, I wonder if they cherry picked nicer coins.
<< <i>I wouldn't have said anything to anyone. I would have fled the country and maybe,maybe slab a few of the precious coins before leaving. This would take a lot of research to find the proper country as well as a safe mode of transportation to get there so the authorities and or customs of that country wouldn't try to fill their pockets too. Then tell the state and federal crimminals to kiss my _ _ _ >>
This is worth uprooting your whole life?
If they are stolen property they should be returned. If someone stole some identifiable valuable item from my great-grandfather I'd want it back with my family.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I assume the property owner took a peek at their abstract to see who owned the property. You can probably pull Dimmick's family tree on-line. It really shouldn't be too difficult to track this back and also determine the approximate time the coins were buried. As the current owner, out of curiosity, I'd want to find out.
Let's say an earlier property owner hid gold in the ground and died, his heirs sell off the property not knowing the gold was left on the property. Decades later it is discovered. Who owns the gold?
I will be surprised if the finders are able to stay anonymous as there are people that will want to know the location for reasons of where it came from.
"Lost property is that which the owner has involuntary and unintentionally parted with through neglect, carelessness, or inadvertence, and does not thereafter know its whereabouts. Mislaid property, on the other hand, is property which the owner has voluntarily and intentionally put in a place where he can again resort to it, but thereafter forgets where he put it. The underlying distinction between abandoned, lost, and mislaid property is the owner's intent or lack of intent in relinquishing possession. The essential test of lost or mislaid property is whether the owner has unwittingly suffered the property to pass out of his possession; the loss or mislaying of property is always involuntary, while abandonment is always by intent or design.
In keeping with the above distinctions, the finder of lost or mislaid property does not acquire absolute ownership of the article, unlike the finder or appropriator of abandoned property. In the case of lost property, the finder acquires the right of possession of the property as against all but the rightful owner, including the owner or occupant of the premises where it is found. In the case of mislaid property, the right of possession as against all except the true owner is in the owner or occupant of the premises where the property is discovered, since mislaid property is presumed to have been left in the custody of the owner or occupant of the premises on which it is found. But in either case, the true owner of the property has the right to reclaim it from the person who has assumed custody."
Some states, by statute have abolished the distinction between lost and mislaid property
<< <i>Let's say an earlier property owner hid gold in the ground and died, his heirs sell off the property not knowing the gold was left on the property. Decades later it is discovered. Who owns the gold?
I will be surprised if the finders are able to stay anonymous as there are people that will want to know the location for reasons of where it came from. >>
Just because someone may want to know who the property owners are, doesn't obligate anyone to tell them. It's possible I suppose if one strongly suspects that they have a right to the coins that they could get a court order to have them outed.
The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin so this was buried on purpose to be dug up at a later time and recovered. Would a person that stole it mark the site like this? Where was the closest home to that location and when was it built? Where is the closest home built around the time these coins might have first been buried?
I think the original owner might not be that hard to figure out, however proving it might be difficult. Somebody was very wealthy to bury this assuming not stolen goods and I doubt this came from a bank heist.
It's possible these were cherrypicked by a bank employee though and taken out slowly, anything is possible. But without the location and study it is only speculation.
It will be interesting to see if the sale of the coins is held up by a court order until this is investigated further. It may be the finders have to give notice that this property was found.
IMO when you buy property you get it all. Unless your contract excludes the mineral rights etc. All easements are recorded and what you find is yours. You buy the dirt and all, if you want to sell dirt and there is no deed restrictions got for it. I have never seen a contract that says you find something in the walls, attic or buried you have to find the original owner. Reguardless anyone can file a lawsuit.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Something seems odd about the metal can preservation. I have been visiting the Gold country foot hills for over 40 years. Lived in CA for over 50. It's RARE to find a buried metal can intact after 50 years let alone 100+ Unless buried on a low low acid soil. I see roots and organic matter. Something doesn't seem right.
More AMJUR - "Treasure trove is any form of gold or silver, or the paper representatives thereof, found concealed in the earth or in a structure, whose owner is unknown. Treasure trove carries with it the implication of antiquity; to be so classified the treasure must have been hidden or concealed so long as to indicate that the owner is probably dead, under circumstances indicating it had originally been concealed for safe keeping. Anything other than gold or silver found buried in the earth is classified as "property embedded in the soil." The finder of treasure trove acquires the same rights with respect thereto as the finder of lost property, while the finder of property embedded in the soil acquires no rights to it, the right of possession devolving on the owner of the realty on which it is found, as in the case of mislaid property."
<< <i>Something seems odd about the metal can preservation. I have been visiting the Gold country foot hills for over 40 years. Lived in CA for over 50. It's RARE to find a buried metal can intact after 50 years let alone 100+ Unless buried on a low low acid soil. I see roots and organic matter. Something doesn't seem right. >>
I grew up on property which the Emigrant Trail ran right through and we used to find old disintegrated metal cans in amongst the bottles we dug up. I guess to your point, most of them were in pretty bad shape. Maybe this lends towards the theory they were buried in the 1930's.
A) OCCAM'S RAZOR. Look for the simplest explanation!
Don't rule out that there might be an inventory of what was missing. EVERY mint bag is numbered. This is yet to be investigated.
C) "When there's a buried treasure there's always pirates attached to it."
D) Collectors do not bury their collection nor do thieves "arrange a collection" in the vault of the mint. Get in, get out. Don't start sorting through 1500 coins. The bags are sewn shut, ya know?
E) If someone buried something that they stole far away from where they are they leave a marker (metal can) or a map, like a pirate's map. Or as someone previously said that made me laugh Look for the GIANT "W"!
<< <i>The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin so this was buried on purpose to be dug up at a later time and recovered. Would a person that stole it mark the site like this? Where was the closest home to that location and when was it built? Where is the closest home built around the time these coins might have first been buried?
I think the original owner might not be that hard to figure out, however proving it might be difficult. Somebody was very wealthy to bury this assuming not stolen goods and I doubt this came from a bank heist.
It's possible these were cherrypicked by a bank employee though and taken out slowly, anything is possible. But without the location and study it is only speculation. >>
A thief may have marked it, but a little less obvious.
<< <i>IMO when you buy property you get it all. Unless your contract excludes the mineral rights etc. All easements are recorded and what you find is yours. You buy the dirt and all, if you want to sell dirt and there is no deed restrictions got for it. I have never seen a contract that says you find something in the walls, attic or buried you have to find the original owner. Reguardless anyone can file a lawsuit. >>
Usually no need to say anything about finding something hidden or buried, since those are covered by law. Nothing however, likely requires you to disclose such discovery either. When it goes public like this, it's hard to hide it.
Im just waiting to see pics of whats available and what the pricing will be. All this waiting is certainly designed to hype the material up into orbit.
Certainly there will be no bargains but will the presale hype result in levels beyond the recently offered Newman Coins? Time will tell.
Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
<< <i>The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin >>
Hanging tin? Is this a supposed marker exposed to the elements from a 100 or so years ago? I am not picturing this. >>
I agree. Gold country has some rough weather. It's hard to believe the tin can hung around for 100+ years.
There is a bit of invention added to this remarkable find, perhaps to enhance the story for publicity. A shame. The treasure alone is good enough. Lance.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
So, on the news channel it was just reported that the taxes will be approximately 1/2 of the value and is due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
I guess treasure troves are taxable events.
bah, humbug.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
<< <i>So, on the news channel it was just reported that the taxes will be approximately 1/2 of the value and is due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
I guess treasure troves are taxable events.
bah, humbug.
bob >>
Final value has not been established so there is a good possibility that they will also be filing an amended return.
I see absolutely no credible reason to link the find and the Dimmick theft.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
<< <i>So, on the news channel it was just reported that the taxes will be approximately 1/2 of the value and is due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
They should have at least claimed they found it in Texas. What were they thinking?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
I think somebody beat you to that notion 291fifth
<<Tuesday February 25, 2014 11:05 PM
The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
"If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession,” the report said, citing the IRS tax guide."
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
That is certainly plausible but note Kagin did state that their belief was that "someone with mining knowledge" accumulated the coins. I believe that fits well with what has been reported as a common practice to allow miners to have their found gold exchanged for coins at the San Francisco Mint. It would be interesting to check the mint records and find out just who came in to exchange their mined gold repeatedly during the time period that the coins represent.
It would seem to me that if the IRS takes the position that the couple who found the gold coins are required to pay taxes on the value of same to the IRS for the 2013 tax year, then that position has to mean that the IRS believes that the gold coins are owned by the couple who found them (and thus that the US Government does not have any claim to ownership of the gold coins as being those stolen from the SF Mint by Walter Dimmick).
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above?
<< <i>It would seem to me that if the IRS takes the position that the couple who found the gold coins are required to pay taxes on the value of same to the IRS for the 2013 tax year, then that position has to mean that the IRS believes that the gold coins are owned by the couple who found them (and thus that the US Government does not have any claim to ownership of the gold coins as being those stolen from the SF Mint by Walter Dimmick).
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above? >>
I generally agree with your statement, although I'm not sure if the tax statements are coming directly from the IRS or from commentators. It's also possible if the IRS has just been made aware of the situation that they are acknowledging the tax law, but at the same time the Feds haven't had the chance to look into the potential that the coins are stolen property.
I'm curious to know what has gone on behind the scenes and what advise they have received.
<< <i>Something seems odd about the metal can preservation. I have been visiting the Gold country foot hills for over 40 years. Lived in CA for over 50. It's RARE to find a buried metal can intact after 50 years let alone 100+ Unless buried on a low low acid soil. I see roots and organic matter. Something doesn't seem right. >>
I grew up on property which the Emigrant Trail ran right through and we used to find old disintegrated metal cans in amongst the bottles we dug up. I guess to your point, most of them were in pretty bad shape. Maybe this lends towards the theory they were buried in the 1930's. >>
Interesting observation. Brought to mind looking for relics as a kid at a former fort in the Nevada hillside that was a stop for the Pony Express and had been abandoned shortly thereafter. Found lots of square nails and smashed metal cans.
<< <i><<When sold, they'll pay taxes on earnings possibly on the coins?
Seems interesting for tax purposes. >>
So what if they never sold the coins. They were part of the property when they purchased it, even if they did not know of their existence. Just the discovery does not create a taxable event in this circumstance. The coins are not "income", they are only an asset.
OINK >>
I'm confused by what you're saying, are you creating a new scenario?
My question pertained to:
Taxes on the "treasure trove" Taxes on the sale of the coins
I was curious if they would be taxed on both events.
The finding and the sale would both be taxable events. On the sale end you would have a basis as the "fair market value" previously reported and taxed. If the coins sold for the reported amount there should be no second tax.
<< <i>The finding and the sale would both be taxable events. On the sale end you would have a basis as the "fair market value" previously reported and taxed. If the coins sold for the reported amount there should be no second tax. >>
Yeah that's what I was curious about a few pages back.
-D
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
I think somebody beat you to that notion 291fifth
<<Tuesday February 25, 2014 11:05 PM
The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
Eric>> >>
The Sherwin-Williams website mentions "tin cans" being available in 1875. One of the cans looks like a paint can.
<< <i>It would seem to me that if the IRS takes the position that the couple who found the gold coins are required to pay taxes on the value of same to the IRS for the 2013 tax year, then that position has to mean that the IRS believes that the gold coins are owned by the couple who found them (and thus that the US Government does not have any claim to ownership of the gold coins as being those stolen from the SF Mint by Walter Dimmick).
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above? >>
Another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. It would seem that if the coins are ever deemed Government property, than any taxes paid now would be refunded with interest. The fact that the IRS is taxing them now, doesn't mean that the Government automatically forfeits any future interest in/claim to them.
Any speculation as to who would be advancing the $5 mil to John and Mary? Kagins? PCGS? A bank?
<< <i>Perhaps the tax situation is why they chose Amazon. They have deep pockets and could front the tax payment to the owner without blinking an eye. >>
The property owners have a few things working in their favor. First, it isn't like the 1933 case where the coins were not supposedly intended to get out of the mint. Second, the property owners are sympathetic folks and have clean hands. Not so in the 1933 case. Third, the government is already going to get a huge chunk of the pie. Potentially not so with the 1933 assuming a step-up in basis. There was little chance at wild-spread outrage in the 1933 case outside coin collectors. In this situation, unless the government has rock solid evidence tying the coins to the theft the potential outcry would be much greater and for a lot smaller "benefit" for the feds.
I would imagine the IRS and California have security interests in the sale proceeds. If they are secured, they will wait. I represented an author with some back tax issues, and they agreed to get paid out of his future royalties and movie rights proceeds, which in fact happened. Took about two years, as I recall. And before anyone asks, this was an interest only deal, no penalties, and my client still received enough of his royalties to live on.
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
So to set this situation up in another scenario, what if you discovered a cave with a natural vein of high grade gold on your property. Would the government make you estimate it's worth and immediately force you to pay all taxes on it in the year it was discovered? Seems to me the gold would have to be mined, assayed, and sold before it can be taxed. If it is not sold then how can you really say what it is worth with any accuracy?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Comments
<< <i>I found it interesting that the coins were sorted by date. 1840-50s in the first can, and so on. Sure Dimmick could have sorted the bags afterwards but it leads me to believe someone assembled these over time.
Maybe a gold minder who traded in his gold findings at the bank (hence the UNC coins) and ferreted them away, slowly amassing a huge collection. I could see someone living out in the hills with not much to spend money on able to do something like this. What I'm not so sure about is how much access one would have to a bank passing out such clean UNC coins. >>
Could the public buy or trade for coins at the cashier's window in those days, just like Izzy Switt and others did later? If so, I wonder if they cherry picked nicer coins.
<< <i>I wouldn't have said anything to anyone. I would have fled the country and maybe,maybe slab a few of the precious coins before leaving. This would take a lot of research to find the proper country as well as a safe mode of transportation to get there so the authorities and or customs of that country wouldn't try to fill their pockets too.
Then tell the state and federal crimminals to kiss my _ _ _ >>
This is worth uprooting your whole life?
If they are stolen property they should be returned. If someone stole some identifiable valuable item from my great-grandfather I'd want it back with my family.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I assume the property owner took a peek at their abstract to see who owned the property. You can probably pull Dimmick's family tree on-line. It really shouldn't be too difficult to track this back and also determine the approximate time the coins were buried. As the current owner, out of curiosity, I'd want to find out.
100% Positive BST transactions
I will be surprised if the finders are able to stay anonymous as there are people that will want to know the location for reasons of where it came from.
"Lost property is that which the owner has involuntary and unintentionally parted with through neglect, carelessness, or inadvertence, and does not thereafter know its whereabouts. Mislaid property, on the other hand, is property which the owner has voluntarily and intentionally put in a place where he can again resort to it, but thereafter forgets where he put it. The underlying distinction between abandoned, lost, and mislaid property is the owner's intent or lack of intent in relinquishing possession. The essential test of lost or mislaid property is whether the owner has unwittingly suffered the property to pass out of his possession; the loss or mislaying of property is always involuntary, while abandonment is always by intent or design.
In keeping with the above distinctions, the finder of lost or mislaid property does not acquire absolute ownership of the article, unlike the finder or appropriator of abandoned property. In the case of lost property, the finder acquires the right of possession of the property as against all but the rightful owner, including the owner or occupant of the premises where it is found. In the case of mislaid property, the right of possession as against all except the true owner is in the owner or occupant of the premises where the property is discovered, since mislaid property is presumed to have been left in the custody of the owner or occupant of the premises on which it is found. But in either case, the true owner of the property has the right to reclaim it from the person who has assumed custody."
Some states, by statute have abolished the distinction between lost and mislaid property
<< <i>Let's say an earlier property owner hid gold in the ground and died, his heirs sell off the property not knowing the gold was left on the property. Decades later it is discovered. Who owns the gold?
I will be surprised if the finders are able to stay anonymous as there are people that will want to know the location for reasons of where it came from. >>
Just because someone may want to know who the property owners are, doesn't obligate anyone to tell them. It's possible I suppose if one strongly suspects that they have a right to the coins that they could get a court order to have them outed.
I think the original owner might not be that hard to figure out, however proving it might be difficult. Somebody was very wealthy to bury this assuming not stolen goods and I doubt this came from a bank heist.
It's possible these were cherrypicked by a bank employee though and taken out slowly, anything is possible. But without the location and study it is only speculation.
Who's raining on the parade ? If this horse drowns, will you promise to beat him ?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>Something seems odd about the metal can preservation. I have been visiting the Gold country foot hills for over 40 years. Lived in CA for over 50. It's RARE to find a buried metal can intact after 50 years let alone 100+ Unless buried on a low low acid soil. I see roots and organic matter. Something doesn't seem right. >>
I grew up on property which the Emigrant Trail ran right through and we used to find old disintegrated metal cans in amongst the bottles we dug up. I guess to your point, most of them were in pretty bad shape. Maybe this lends towards the theory they were buried in the 1930's.
C) "When there's a buried treasure there's always pirates attached to it."
D) Collectors do not bury their collection nor do thieves "arrange a collection" in the vault of the mint. Get in, get out. Don't start sorting through 1500 coins. The bags are sewn shut, ya know?
E) If someone buried something that they stole far away from where they are they leave a marker (metal can) or a map, like a pirate's map. Or as someone previously said that made me laugh Look for the GIANT "W"!
<< <i>The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin so this was buried on purpose to be dug up at a later time and recovered. Would a person that stole it mark the site like this? Where was the closest home to that location and when was it built? Where is the closest home built around the time these coins might have first been buried?
I think the original owner might not be that hard to figure out, however proving it might be difficult. Somebody was very wealthy to bury this assuming not stolen goods and I doubt this came from a bank heist.
It's possible these were cherrypicked by a bank employee though and taken out slowly, anything is possible. But without the location and study it is only speculation. >>
A thief may have marked it, but a little less obvious.
<< <i>Or as someone previously said that made me laugh Look for the GIANT "W"!
But are there four palm trees in that area?
Eric
<< <i>IMO when you buy property you get it all. Unless your contract excludes the mineral rights etc. All easements are recorded and what you find is yours. You buy the dirt and all, if you want to sell dirt and there is no deed restrictions got for it. I have never seen a contract that says you find something in the walls, attic or buried you have to find the original owner. Reguardless anyone can file a lawsuit. >>
Usually no need to say anything about finding something hidden or buried, since those are covered by law. Nothing however, likely requires you to disclose such discovery either. When it goes public like this, it's hard to hide it.
sell off a few coins at a time.
Now you have the Dimmick story, possible heirs claiming these were their coins, who knows what is next?
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
material up into orbit.
Certainly there will be no bargains but will the presale hype result in levels beyond the recently offered Newman Coins?
Time will tell.
<< <i>
<< <i>The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin
Hanging tin? Is this a supposed marker exposed to the elements from a 100 or so years ago? I am not picturing this.
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found.
<< <i>
<< <i>The finders were quoted in an article saying the location was clearly marked by a rock and hanging tin >>
Hanging tin? Is this a supposed marker exposed to the elements from a 100 or so years ago? I am not picturing this. >>
I agree. Gold country has some rough weather. It's hard to believe the tin can hung around for 100+ years.
There is a bit of invention added to this remarkable find, perhaps to enhance the story for publicity. A shame. The treasure alone is good enough.
Lance.
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
Works for me.
due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
I guess treasure troves are taxable events.
bah, humbug.
bob
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
See Saintguru's post re: Occam's Razor.
<< <i>So, on the news channel it was just reported that the taxes will be approximately 1/2 of the value and is
due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
I guess treasure troves are taxable events.
bah, humbug.
bob
Final value has not been established so there is a good possibility that they will also be filing an amended return.
<< <i>Possibly rename as the 'Dimmick Hoard'??
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/ >>
I see absolutely no credible reason to link the find and the Dimmick theft.
<< <i>
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
See Saintguru's post re: Occam's Razor. >>
291's is Occam's +
<< <i>
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
See Saintguru's post re: Occam's Razor. >>
<< <i>So, on the news channel it was just reported that the taxes will be approximately 1/2 of the value and is
due to the Feds and CA on April 15th. Since it was discovered in 2013 taxes are due in 2014.
They should have at least claimed they found it in Texas. What were they thinking?
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
I think somebody beat you to that notion 291fifth
<<Tuesday February 25, 2014 11:05 PM
The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
Eric>>
"If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is your undisputed possession,” the report said, citing the IRS tax guide."
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
That is certainly plausible but note Kagin did state that their belief was that "someone with mining knowledge" accumulated the coins. I believe that fits well with what has been reported as a common practice to allow miners to have their found gold exchanged for coins at the San Francisco Mint. It would be interesting to check the mint records and find out just who came in to exchange their mined gold repeatedly during the time period that the coins represent.
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above?
Logic and collaboration have never been the ken of government agencies.
BTW, studied accounting but never practiced.
<< <i>It would seem to me that if the IRS takes the position that the couple who found the gold coins are required to pay taxes on the value of same to the IRS for the 2013 tax year, then that position has to mean that the IRS believes that the gold coins are owned by the couple who found them (and thus that the US Government does not have any claim to ownership of the gold coins as being those stolen from the SF Mint by Walter Dimmick).
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above? >>
I generally agree with your statement, although I'm not sure if the tax statements are coming directly from the IRS or from commentators. It's also possible if the IRS has just been made aware of the situation that they are acknowledging the tax law, but at the same time the Feds haven't had the chance to look into the potential that the coins are stolen property.
I'm curious to know what has gone on behind the scenes and what advise they have received.
<< <i>
<< <i>Something seems odd about the metal can preservation. I have been visiting the Gold country foot hills for over 40 years. Lived in CA for over 50. It's RARE to find a buried metal can intact after 50 years let alone 100+ Unless buried on a low low acid soil. I see roots and organic matter. Something doesn't seem right. >>
I grew up on property which the Emigrant Trail ran right through and we used to find old disintegrated metal cans in amongst the bottles we dug up. I guess to your point, most of them were in pretty bad shape. Maybe this lends towards the theory they were buried in the 1930's. >>
Interesting observation. Brought to mind looking for relics as a kid at a former fort in the Nevada hillside that was a stop for the Pony Express and had been abandoned shortly thereafter. Found lots of square nails and smashed metal cans.
<< <i><<When sold, they'll pay taxes on earnings possibly on the coins?
Seems interesting for tax purposes.
>>
So what if they never sold the coins. They were part of the property when they purchased it, even if they did not know of their existence. Just the discovery does not create a taxable event in this circumstance. The coins are not "income", they are only an asset.
OINK >>
I'm confused by what you're saying, are you creating a new scenario?
My question pertained to:
Taxes on the "treasure trove"
Taxes on the sale of the coins
I was curious if they would be taxed on both events.
Seems others believe it is also taxable.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>The finding and the sale would both be taxable events. On the sale end you would have a basis as the "fair market value" previously reported and taxed. If the coins sold for the reported amount there should be no second tax. >>
Yeah that's what I was curious about a few pages back.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>
<< <i>Earlier I said that I thought it more likely that the hoard was buried in the 1930's than the 1890's (or 1901).
Here is a speculative sequence of events:
1840's to 1895 ... the coins are collected by an individual who has some numismatic knowledge but who is not a part of the mainstream collecting fraternity of the era. He dies about 1895 and leaves the coins to relative(s) who, not needing money, keep them largely intact but who, lacking in numismatic interest, do not expand the set.
1933 ... the coins have now been passed down to another relative who, lacking any numismatic knowledge, simply regards them as gold coins. The order to turn in gold coins is issued in 1933. The current holder of the coins decides to hide the coins rather than turn them in. At some later time the holder dies without ever telling anyone else of the coins.
2013 ... the coins are found. >>
I think somebody beat you to that notion 291fifth
<<Tuesday February 25, 2014 11:05 PM
The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
Eric>> >>
The Sherwin-Williams website mentions "tin cans" being available in 1875. One of the cans looks like a paint can.
<< <i>It would seem to me that if the IRS takes the position that the couple who found the gold coins are required to pay taxes on the value of same to the IRS for the 2013 tax year, then that position has to mean that the IRS believes that the gold coins are owned by the couple who found them (and thus that the US Government does not have any claim to ownership of the gold coins as being those stolen from the SF Mint by Walter Dimmick).
It would be very unfair for the couple to be required to pay taxes on the value of the coins to the IRS and State Of Calif. by 4-15-2014 only to thereafter be subjected to legal action by the USA to seek to have the coins forfeited to the USA.
What do you forum tax accountants and tax lawyers think of the above? >>
Another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. It would seem that if the coins are ever deemed Government property, than any taxes paid now would be refunded with interest. The fact that the IRS is taxing them now, doesn't mean that the Government automatically forfeits any future interest in/claim to them.
Any speculation as to who would be advancing the $5 mil to John and Mary? Kagins? PCGS? A bank?
<< <i>Perhaps the tax situation is why they chose Amazon. They have deep pockets and could front the tax payment to the owner without blinking an eye. >>
Any major coin dealer could cover that as well.