<< <i>Just wait and see how many search the land records to see who owned the property in the mid 1800s so then can file a claim to the coins? Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take. >>
How can someone claim ownership to something that they didn't know was there? If the sale agreement didn't specifically include or exclude hidden resources/treasures do they automatically pass to the new owner? If relatives of one of the previous owners could show that they had the means to accumulate the coins, it may be a different story.
<< <i>Just wait and see how many search the land records to see who owned the property in the mid 1800s so then can file a claim to the coins? Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take. >>
How can someone claim ownership to something that they didn't know was there? If the sale agreement didn't specifically include or exclude hidden resources/treasures do they automatically pass to the new owner? If relatives of one of the previous owners could show that they had the means to accumulate the coins, it may be a different story. >>
I agree butt there's too many slime I mean lawyers out there willing to try. Some lawyer may complete the search then contact the descendants, convince them to try for a base fee then a finders fee if they're successful. Win win for the lawyer. We'll see vultures in one form or another flocking to this find.
Does anyone think the couple kept a few coins out of sight not even sent to Kagin or PCGS just in case? We are all assuming they sent in all the coins. Maybe there was 2000 coins in all.
There is something to me that is very odd to this whole story.... and its more than what is getting put out... I would not be surprised that someone else has a valid ownership claim to this "Hoard" and comes forward ....
<< <i>There is something to me that is very odd to this whole story.... and its more than what is getting put out... I would not be surprised that someone else has a valid ownership claim to this "Hoard" and comes forward .... >>
How specific would their knowledge of the hoard have to be to validate a claim to the coins? I doubt a "bunch of old gold coins" would be adequate.
<< <i>Wait! My Grandpa use to live up there in the hills! >>
You too ! What a small world it is ! No wait, maybe my kin used to live up in the Oregon hills. Oh whatever, California , Oregon, what's the difference? I want a piece of what's mine.
Aint like Im just some greedy vulture or nothin like that.
<< <i>I'd be buying a metal detector to search the rest of the property. >>
One of the stated reason for maintaining a "secret identity" is to keep this from happening.
I, not having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, would get a lawyer and check out setting up a charitable trust to avoid much of the taxation. They've already stated that the bulk of the proceeds is going to charity. On a cost basis, the entire hoard can be valued at virtually nada. The lawyer sells the coins on behalf of the trust. Perhaps something could be set up to more fully protect the owners' identity. Can the lawyer's confidentiality be used to mask the identities? How about locating the trust in another state with more favorable tax rates. NH? Maybe they can, as trustees, rake off anything they want as a management fee in that low-tax/tax-free state..
Having followed Tom Bodett's advice last night, this could all be horse-pucky.
I don't get Amazon. But I didn't even know they had auctions. My guess is that, with a consignment of $10,000,000 value (even though there are maybe 2000 coins, many would be sold as multiple coin lots), 111% of hammer on a 17.5% buyers fee seems not very difficult to obtain from either Heritage or S-B. Better market penetration with a customer base more focused than Amazon.
Don Kagin and Dave McCarthy are pretty shrewd fellows. I'm sure they've thought things through for their customer. Were I in their position I'd go for 2% as my consulting fee.
Reading the Kagin promotional email and the Amazon angle, I've rethought my position on a consulting fee. Now 4%-5%. My only reservation? Selling a million dollar coin on Amazon.. What's up with that? Does Amazon have auctions? Maybe Kagins has something else in mind for the big ones. Do they start at $2,000,000 on the Pacquet and then wait for an offer? Lower the price $100,000 per week until someone knowledgeable bites? I wonder how many coins in the group have the potential to bring $25,000 or more.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
As for taxes, is their any stature regarding "found" wealth. I can see how professional treasure hunters could be taxed because it's their business but walking along and finding this?
If it's taxable it's just like the "kick some up" ala Tony Soprano.
If this was a stolen group of coins someone out there will have the proof to find it out. Coins of this value and condition are going to have someone who knows about them seeing them. This grouping is almost too rare to be stolen. Unless it was stolen 50+ years ago.
Now I could see a family making up this story about an old passed down family stash, but I don't see the reason... if could very well be called the "grampa" hoard and get the proper attention to bring top $.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found.
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
It may not have been him but the accumulation of 1 or more coins from every year could indicate that another mint employee may have been stealing or exchanging coins and hoarding them.
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
Whoa that's reeeeally interesting! >>
Except it's more likely that the coins Dimmick is believed to have stolen would be mostly one date/mm.
FYI - from what I can tell, Dimmick was arrested in 1901. The last coin was dated 1894. When they looked into his life, they could not find any evidence that he lived a lavish lifestyle
WHOAAAA! A theft of 1500 coins from the SF mint!!!!
This is getting a lot more exciting. However, the coin world does NOT need another scandal. It seems that one comes up every 30 years or so. It's like a fungus that keeps recurring!
<< <i>WHOAAAA! A theft of 1500 coins from the SF mint!!!!
This is getting a lot more exciting. However, the coin world does NOT need another scandal. It seems that one comes up every 30 years or so. It's like a fungus that keeps recurring! >>
You would have thought the lawyers would have uncovered this fact and checked it out already. Maybe not though.
he only worked there a short time before this happened. Possibly he was in cahoots with someone else. Would love to know if there is a blood line between this couple and a Mint employee or even Dimmick.
Maybe the lawyers uncovered all this stuff and their tact to try and keep the coins out of government hands was to stay anonymous and donate a large amount to charity. If they have already donated a large amount to hungry people, then confiscation essentially takes food out of hungry people's mouths. Imagine the public outcry.
The government gets 40% of the hoard anyway through taxes. So if the couple donates half to charity, they essentially get the remaining tax free. Better to give half to charity than 40% to the government. I can't see how a simple search would not have uncovered Dimmick.
<< <i>he only worked there a short time before this happened. Possibly he was in cahoots with someone else. Would love to know if there is a blood line between this couple and a Mint employee or even Dimmick.
Maybe the lawyers uncovered all this stuff and their tact to try and keep the coins out of government hands was to stay anonymous and donate a large amount to charity. If they have already donated a large amount to hungry people, then confiscation essentially takes food out of hungry people's mouths. Imagine the public outcry.
The government gets 40% of the hoard anyway through taxes. So if the couple donates half to charity, they essentially get the remaining tax free. Better to give half to charity than 40% to the government. I can't see how a simple search would not have uncovered Dimmick. >>
Are you sure they don't get taxed on the part that they keep? That's still a hefty sum.
I'm not an accountant. I think they would be taxed on the entire hoard as income. If they donate 1/2, then that 1/2 zero's out the half they keep or sell. No?
The wiki page had the controversy part taken out. I'd bet the lawyers didn't want that out there. I'm sure a national news station will report the theft of 1500 coins from the SF Mint and this hoard of 1400+ coins sooner or later.
<< <i>I'm not an accountant. I think they would be taxed on the entire hoard as income. If they donate 1/2, then that 1/2 zero's out the half they keep or sell. No?
The wiki page had the controversy part taken out. I'd bet the lawyers didn't want that out there. I'm sure a national news station will report the theft of 1500 coins from the SF Mint and this hoard of 1400+ coins sooner or later. >>
Giving half away reduces the taxable amount, but it doesn't relieve you of your tax obligation for the remainder. If I have 10 mil and give you 5 mil, I still have 5 mil left that is taxable. The only way to zero it out is to give all of it away.
The basic rule is that the value of a treasure trove is includable in gross income for federal tax purposes in the year in which it is reduced to undisputed possession. The common law is that the finder of a treasure trove has indisputable title when found except against the lawful owner. Some states have modified this rule by statute, I have no idea if California is one. Since the coins were found in February 2013, it would appear that this couple will have a rather large taxable income when they file their return for 2013, which would be due April 15., 2014.
And,as to Colonel Jessup's point, the amount of the gross income they have realized is fixed as of the time they found the coins. If they transferred the coins to a charitable trust, they would be entitled to a deduction, the amount of which would depend on the type of trust you are talking about. But, in any event, even if they transferred all the coins to charity outright, the amount that can be deducted is limited to 50% for a given year. There is no way to zero out their taxable income for 2013. In other words, these folks have a tax problem, though it is one I would like to have.
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
THIS IS IT. Dimmick was the Chief Clerk! He was the inside man...To Catch A Thief!
OF COURSE there were bags there with mixed dates! They could have had open bags with random lots from the cashier, etc. That's easy to explain.
He was the last guy OUT of the vaults every time they were opened!
HE was the "tally man". It was his job to verify the amount of coins.
He was there starting in 1898. Grab 6 bags and that's that. How could he have a lavish lifestyle when the coins were buried?
He was accused and convicted and the coins were NEVER FOUND...well, not for about 114 years worth of "never"!
One thing I kept marveling at when I heard of this hoard was how freaking amazing it was that anyone could even FIND coins like this back in the 1800's. Well now I think we know!
I guarantee that the Treasury Dept. is already scrambling, looking for enough ties to warrant a seizure. Here we go again!
YET there's a $20 1866-S that is a MAJOR RARITY! That is the potential $million coin.
1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million • 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million • 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known) • 1873 $20 Double Eagle (Closed 3) graded MS62 (tied finest known) • 1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known) • 1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known) • 1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) • 1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) >>
So the question is, who has the current top rated registry sets now that excludes these coins? I assume they would want the top pop for their sets. Is Simpson one of those guys?
Re Government taxes: don't they get 39% for Feds and whatever the top bracket is for CA? So almost 50% in total? >>
Since these coins were in a can shouldn't the contact or coin rub knocked down the grades?
Forget all this talk about a San Francisco mint employee. These coins were undoubtedly the long lost Scrooge McDuck hoard. As a young duck he had hidden the coins as a result of fallout from the economic collapse of 1893. The money bin was far in the future so nothing but a few cans were used at this early date.
When gold was discovered in Alaska and the Yukon Scrooge went north and struck it rich. He became so rich he never did bother to go back and retrieve his original coin hoard.
<< <i>Forget all this talk about a San Francisco mint employee. These coins were undoubtedly the long lost Scrooge McDuck hoard. As a young duck he had hidden the coins as a result of fallout from the economic collapse of 1893. The money bin was far in the future so nothing but a few cans were used at this early date.
When gold was discovered in Alaska and the Yukon Scrooge went north and struck it rich. He became so rich he never did bother to go back and retrieve his original coin hoard.
>>
Will you be available to serve as an expert witness when the government tries to get these coins?
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
Would be very fun to be the persons who discovered the coins on their land.
Would be even more fun to sort through, inventory, learn about, conserve and have a TPG grade the coins.
The announcement of the discovery of the coins and the ultimate disposition of the coins would be something that would likely cause lots of media coverage and competing claims to same. If the persons who found the coins were not so attached to the coins that they would fight like heck to retain them or their proceeds, then the ultimate disposition of the coins and their proceeds would not cause the persons intolerable turmoil.
If there is anyway that Uncle Sam and/or California can get their hands on the coins and their proceeds, I have no doubt that an attempt to make this happen will quickly get off of the ground. We all know that Uncle Sam and California are merely looking out for the best interests of the public, including:
<< <i>THIS IS IT. Dimmick was the Chief Clerk! He was the inside man...To Catch A Thief!
OF COURSE there were bags there with mixed dates! They could have had open bags with random lots from the cashier, etc. That's easy to explain.
He was the last guy OUT of the vaults every time they were opened!
HE was the "tally man". It was his job to verify the amount of coins.
He was there starting in 1898. Grab 6 bags and that's that. How could he have a lavish lifestyle when the coins were buried?
He was accused and convicted and the coins were NEVER FOUND...well, not for about 114 years worth of "never"!
One thing I kept marveling at when I heard of this hoard was how freaking amazing it was that anyone could even FIND coins like this back in the 1800's. Well now I think we know!
I guarantee that the Treasury Dept. is already scrambling, looking for enough ties to warrant a seizure. Here we go again!
THIS SO ADDS UP.
WOW. >>
So Jay, do you think he fixed a bag to that composition over time with the intent to steal it? If their recordkeeping from the pre-1900s was as sloppy as it appears to have been during the 1933 era, they will have a hard time proving anything other than it is ours because we say it is.
I don't think he fixed anything. He wasn't a collector he was a thief. Maybe all six bags were re-sealed mixed bags. Maybe he thought that resealed mixed bags would be less traceable than pristine bags of all one date. And perhaps the 54 mixed $5 and $10's could have been in a loose bag? Makes sense.
All I believe is that this find was as fantastic as a dream and all of a sudden there's a huge Unsolved case that is missing a few answers and this sure seems to fit 80%!! Too bad, really. It seems that every 30 years there's some scandal rather than a great one with a few exceptions.
If a claim is made by the government that the coins are the one's stolen by the mint employee, it will be necessary to as best as humanly possible reconstruct what happened with/to the coins since they were stolen from the mint.
The metal cans that the coins were found in last year will be subjected to CSI like scrutiny to determine how old they are. If the metal cans date to back the time of the theft from the mint, that would make the required proof a little easier [i.e. the age of the cans demonstrate that the coins were stolen from the mint. placed into metal cans and buried around the time of the theft; and were left where they were buried until last year when the property owners found the cans while walking their dog]. If the metal cans date from the 1920's, 1930's or later, then tracing the history of the coins since they were stolen becomes more difficult [they passed through multiple hands before they were buried].
If instead of almost 1,500 coins only 200 were found, would the idea of linking them to the Walter Dimmick theft be less intriguing?
If instead of MS coins being found, only circulated coins were found, would that make the idea of linking them to the Walter Dimmick theft be less intriguing?
If the government decides that these coins are the ones Walter Dimmick stole from the mint, then it would be likely that the government may be required to do something similar to what the trial court in the Langbord case ruled the government must do [file a CAFRA forfeiture action against the coins]. If so, then the government attorneys handling any legal case against the almost 1500 coins found last year would likely get a complete copy of the Langbord lawsuit papers and use that as a starting point.
The outcome of the pending Langbord appeal in the 3rd Circuit DCA may have immediate impact on any new case involving these newly found coins.
I'm sure I will sound like a heretic by saying this on a coin board, but they should have melted the coins and sold them for their gold content. They would have walked away with over $2M. When all is said and done now, they will look like fools or liars for not finding the Dimmick case and trying to get away with it.
Comments
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Just wait and see how many search the land records to see who owned the property in the mid 1800s so then can file a claim to the coins?
Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take. >>
How can someone claim ownership to something that they didn't know was there? If the sale agreement didn't specifically include or exclude hidden resources/treasures do they automatically pass to the new owner? If relatives of one of the previous owners could show that they had the means to accumulate the coins, it may be a different story.
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
<< <i>
<< <i>Just wait and see how many search the land records to see who owned the property in the mid 1800s so then can file a claim to the coins?
Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take. >>
How can someone claim ownership to something that they didn't know was there? If the sale agreement didn't specifically include or exclude hidden resources/treasures do they automatically pass to the new owner? If relatives of one of the previous owners could show that they had the means to accumulate the coins, it may be a different story. >>
I agree butt there's too many slime I mean lawyers out there willing to try. Some lawyer may complete the search then contact the descendants, convince them to try for a base fee then a finders fee if they're successful. Win win for the lawyer.
We'll see vultures in one form or another flocking to this find.
I would not be surprised that someone else has a valid ownership claim to this "Hoard" and comes forward ....
<< <i>It was a challenge to photograph all of these coins to say the least. Luckily I had some good help. >>
Well that answers that question. Every coin was TruViewed. Those photos will make a nice catalogue
Lest we forget the wild wild west !
<< <i>There is something to me that is very odd to this whole story.... and its more than what is getting put out...
I would not be surprised that someone else has a valid ownership claim to this "Hoard" and comes forward .... >>
How specific would their knowledge of the hoard have to be to validate a claim to the coins? I doubt a "bunch of old gold coins" would be adequate.
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>Wait! My Grandpa use to live up there in the hills!
You too ! What a small world it is ! No wait, maybe my kin used to live up in the Oregon hills.
Oh whatever, California , Oregon, what's the difference? I want a piece of what's mine.
Aint like Im just some greedy vulture or nothin like that.
<< <i>I'd be buying a metal detector to search the rest of the property. >>
One of the stated reason for maintaining a "secret identity" is to keep this from happening.
I, not having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, would get a lawyer and check out setting up a charitable trust to avoid much of the taxation. They've already stated that the bulk of the proceeds is going to charity. On a cost basis, the entire hoard can be valued at virtually nada. The lawyer sells the coins on behalf of the trust. Perhaps something could be set up to more fully protect the owners' identity. Can the lawyer's confidentiality be used to mask the identities? How about locating the trust in another state with more favorable tax rates. NH? Maybe they can, as trustees, rake off anything they want as a management fee in that low-tax/tax-free state..
Having followed Tom Bodett's advice last night, this could all be horse-pucky.
I don't get Amazon. But I didn't even know they had auctions. My guess is that, with a consignment of $10,000,000 value (even though there are maybe 2000 coins, many would be sold as multiple coin lots), 111% of hammer on a 17.5% buyers fee seems not very difficult to obtain from either Heritage or S-B. Better market penetration with a customer base more focused than Amazon.
Don Kagin and Dave McCarthy are pretty shrewd fellows. I'm sure they've thought things through for their customer. Were I in their position I'd go for 2% as my consulting fee.
Reading the Kagin promotional email and the Amazon angle, I've rethought my position on a consulting fee. Now 4%-5%. My only reservation? Selling a million dollar coin on Amazon.. What's up with that? Does Amazon have auctions? Maybe Kagins has something else in mind for the big ones. Do they start at $2,000,000 on the Pacquet and then wait for an offer? Lower the price $100,000 per week until someone knowledgeable bites? I wonder how many coins in the group have the potential to bring $25,000 or more.
If it's taxable it's just like the "kick some up" ala Tony Soprano.
Now I could see a family making up this story about an old passed down family stash, but I don't see the reason... if could very well be called the "grampa" hoard and get the proper attention to bring top $.
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/
<< <i>Possibly rename as the 'Dimmick Hoard'??
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/ >>
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found.
<< <i>I'd be buying a metal detector to search the rest of the property. >>
They already did. Looks like the hoard was landmarked.
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly rename as the 'Dimmick Hoard'??
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/ >>
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
Whoa that's reeeeally interesting!
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly rename as the 'Dimmick Hoard'??
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/ >>
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
It may not have been him but the accumulation of 1 or more coins from every year could indicate that another mint employee may have been stealing or exchanging coins and hoarding them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Possibly rename as the 'Dimmick Hoard'??
http://www.usmint.gov/kids/coinnews/mintfacilities/sfo/ >>
Interesting. Explains why they are in such good shape. 1500 hundred double eagles missing almost exactly matches this hoards total.
Could it be that Chief Clerk Walter Dimmick had betrayed the trust placed in him? It certainly seemed that way when the San Francisco Mint discovered that six bags of gold coins were missing from one of the vaults, together worth $30,000!
Only someone who could open the vault and had free access to the building could have removed that many heavy coins without being detected.
The Chief Clerk, Walter Dimmick, was able to get into the vault at the time the money was stolen. He was also the last one to count the bags of coins every night before the vaults were closed. Yet he denied knowing where the money might be.
Since he had already been caught learning to sign the Superintendent's name (forgery), taking money from the pay envelopes of other Mint employees (theft), and stealing other government funds in his care, a jury eventually found him guilty of stealing the $30,000 in gold double eagles and of two other charges.
At 46 years old, Walter Dimmick began to serve his time (almost seven years of hard labor) at the San Quentin prison in California. The 1,500 gold coins were never found. >>
Whoa that's reeeeally interesting! >>
Except it's more likely that the coins Dimmick is believed to have stolen would be mostly one date/mm.
This is getting a lot more exciting. However, the coin world does NOT need another scandal. It seems that one comes up every 30 years or so. It's like a fungus that keeps recurring!
<< <i>WHOAAAA! A theft of 1500 coins from the SF mint!!!!
This is getting a lot more exciting. However, the coin world does NOT need another scandal. It seems that one comes up every 30 years or so. It's like a fungus that keeps recurring!
You would have thought the lawyers would have uncovered this fact and checked it out already. Maybe not though.
Wiki page
What is the likelihood that Dimmick could have accumulated new coins over that date range unless he worked there that long?
Maybe the lawyers uncovered all this stuff and their tact to try and keep the coins out of government hands was to stay anonymous and donate a large amount to charity. If they have already donated a large amount to hungry people, then confiscation essentially takes food out of hungry people's mouths. Imagine the public outcry.
The government gets 40% of the hoard anyway through taxes. So if the couple donates half to charity, they essentially get the remaining tax free. Better to give half to charity than 40% to the government. I can't see how a simple search would not have uncovered Dimmick.
<< <i>he only worked there a short time before this happened. Possibly he was in cahoots with someone else. Would love to know if there is a blood line between this couple and a Mint employee or even Dimmick.
Maybe the lawyers uncovered all this stuff and their tact to try and keep the coins out of government hands was to stay anonymous and donate a large amount to charity. If they have already donated a large amount to hungry people, then confiscation essentially takes food out of hungry people's mouths. Imagine the public outcry.
The government gets 40% of the hoard anyway through taxes. So if the couple donates half to charity, they essentially get the remaining tax free. Better to give half to charity than 40% to the government. I can't see how a simple search would not have uncovered Dimmick. >>
Are you sure they don't get taxed on the part that they keep? That's still a hefty sum.
The wiki page had the controversy part taken out. I'd bet the lawyers didn't want that out there. I'm sure a national news station will report the theft of 1500 coins from the SF Mint and this hoard of 1400+ coins sooner or later.
<< <i>I'm not an accountant. I think they would be taxed on the entire hoard as income. If they donate 1/2, then that 1/2 zero's out the half they keep or sell. No?
The wiki page had the controversy part taken out. I'd bet the lawyers didn't want that out there. I'm sure a national news station will report the theft of 1500 coins from the SF Mint and this hoard of 1400+ coins sooner or later. >>
Giving half away reduces the taxable amount, but it doesn't relieve you of your tax obligation for the remainder. If I have 10 mil and give you 5 mil, I still have 5 mil left that is taxable. The only way to zero it out is to give all of it away.
And,as to Colonel Jessup's point, the amount of the gross income they have realized is fixed as of the time they found the coins. If they transferred the coins to a charitable trust, they would be entitled to a deduction, the amount of which would depend on the type of trust you are talking about. But, in any event, even if they transferred all the coins to charity outright, the amount that can be deducted is limited to 50% for a given year. There is no way to zero out their taxable income for 2013. In other words, these folks have a tax problem, though it is one I would like to have.
I hate taxes
OF COURSE there were bags there with mixed dates! They could have had open bags with random lots from the cashier, etc. That's easy to explain.
He was the last guy OUT of the vaults every time they were opened!
HE was the "tally man". It was his job to verify the amount of coins.
He was there starting in 1898. Grab 6 bags and that's that. How could he have a lavish lifestyle when the coins were buried?
He was accused and convicted and the coins were NEVER FOUND...well, not for about 114 years worth of "never"!
One thing I kept marveling at when I heard of this hoard was how freaking amazing it was that anyone could even FIND coins like this back in the 1800's. Well now I think we know!
I guarantee that the Treasury Dept. is already scrambling, looking for enough ties to warrant a seizure. Here we go again!
THIS SO ADDS UP.
WOW.
<< <i>
<< <i>All the publicity for the $10 1866-S....
YET there's a $20 1866-S that is a MAJOR RARITY! That is the potential $million coin.
1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known)
• 1873 $20 Double Eagle (Closed 3) graded MS62 (tied finest known)
• 1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known)
• 1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known)
• 1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)
• 1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) >>
So the question is, who has the current top rated registry sets now that excludes these coins? I assume they would want the top pop for their sets. Is Simpson one of those guys?
Re Government taxes: don't they get 39% for Feds and whatever the top bracket is for CA? So almost 50% in total? >>
Since these coins were in a can shouldn't the contact or coin rub knocked down the grades?
When gold was discovered in Alaska and the Yukon Scrooge went north and struck it rich. He became so rich he never did bother to go back and retrieve his original coin hoard.
<< <i>Forget all this talk about a San Francisco mint employee. These coins were undoubtedly the long lost Scrooge McDuck hoard. As a young duck he had hidden the coins as a result of fallout from the economic collapse of 1893. The money bin was far in the future so nothing but a few cans were used at this early date.
When gold was discovered in Alaska and the Yukon Scrooge went north and struck it rich. He became so rich he never did bother to go back and retrieve his original coin hoard.
Will you be available to serve as an expert witness when the government tries to get these coins?
Would be very fun to be the persons who discovered the coins on their land.
Would be even more fun to sort through, inventory, learn about, conserve and have a TPG grade the coins.
The announcement of the discovery of the coins and the ultimate disposition of the coins would be something that would likely cause lots of media coverage and competing claims to same. If the persons who found the coins were not so attached to the coins that they would fight like heck to retain them or their proceeds, then the ultimate disposition of the coins and their proceeds would not cause the persons intolerable turmoil.
If there is anyway that Uncle Sam and/or California can get their hands on the coins and their proceeds, I have no doubt that an attempt to make this happen will quickly get off of the ground. We all know that Uncle Sam and California are merely looking out for the best interests of the public, including:
1. "The Children"
2. "The Poor";
3. The Disadvantaged"; and
4. The Disenfranchised".
<< <i>THIS IS IT. Dimmick was the Chief Clerk! He was the inside man...To Catch A Thief!
OF COURSE there were bags there with mixed dates! They could have had open bags with random lots from the cashier, etc. That's easy to explain.
He was the last guy OUT of the vaults every time they were opened!
HE was the "tally man". It was his job to verify the amount of coins.
He was there starting in 1898. Grab 6 bags and that's that. How could he have a lavish lifestyle when the coins were buried?
He was accused and convicted and the coins were NEVER FOUND...well, not for about 114 years worth of "never"!
One thing I kept marveling at when I heard of this hoard was how freaking amazing it was that anyone could even FIND coins like this back in the 1800's. Well now I think we know!
I guarantee that the Treasury Dept. is already scrambling, looking for enough ties to warrant a seizure. Here we go again!
THIS SO ADDS UP.
WOW.
So Jay, do you think he fixed a bag to that composition over time with the intent to steal it? If their recordkeeping from the pre-1900s was as sloppy as it appears to have been during the 1933 era, they will have a hard time proving anything other than it is ours because we say it is.
Awesome!
100% Positive BST transactions
All I believe is that this find was as fantastic as a dream and all of a sudden there's a huge Unsolved case that is missing a few answers and this sure seems to fit 80%!! Too bad, really. It seems that every 30 years there's some scandal rather than a great one with a few exceptions.
This story is going to get very interesting.
null
Any knowledge of where he was from or locations where he lived or was familiar with?
Not sure where one could find this info...
The metal cans that the coins were found in last year will be subjected to CSI like scrutiny to determine how old they are. If the metal cans date to back the time of the theft from the mint, that would make the required proof a little easier [i.e. the age of the cans demonstrate that the coins were stolen from the mint. placed into metal cans and buried around the time of the theft; and were left where they were buried until last year when the property owners found the cans while walking their dog]. If the metal cans date from the 1920's, 1930's or later, then tracing the history of the coins since they were stolen becomes more difficult [they passed through multiple hands before they were buried].
If instead of almost 1,500 coins only 200 were found, would the idea of linking them to the Walter Dimmick theft be less intriguing?
If instead of MS coins being found, only circulated coins were found, would that make the idea of linking them to the Walter Dimmick theft be less intriguing?
If the government decides that these coins are the ones Walter Dimmick stole from the mint, then it would be likely that the government may be required to do something similar to what the trial court in the Langbord case ruled the government must do [file a CAFRA forfeiture action against the coins]. If so, then the government attorneys handling any legal case against the almost 1500 coins found last year would likely get a complete copy of the Langbord lawsuit papers and use that as a starting point.
The outcome of the pending Langbord appeal in the 3rd Circuit DCA may have immediate impact on any new case involving these newly found coins.
Interesting, very interesting.
The diversity of dates and the grades of most pieces. It's almost what I'd expect to see in a collection put together by a numismatist.