<< <i>This is every metal detectors dream find. And these people found the first can sticking out of the ground?? Amazing.
What are the benefits of NOT keeping a low profile, NOT quietly getting the coins graded and selling quietly over a few years?? >>
If the question is literal: There's time value to money. Maybe they're aware that the money today is worth more than it is in ten, fifteen, or twenty years. Perhaps they're intelligent enough to re-invest the money. Perhaps they believe the attention will drive more potential buyers their way, the free advertising from news publications and things like that. Contrary, they could also just want the money now, so that they can swim in it like Scrooge McDuck.
I hope it's the latter.
-D
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
<< <i>Before they sell them, they are loaning some to the American Numismatic Association for its National Money Show, which opens Thursday in Atlanta.
This should be interesting! >>
Excellent PR/Marketing move on their part.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i><<Perhaps there were many common, circulated coins that are not particularly rare. It might make sense to sell common MS61 coins via Amazon and keep the cream of the find for auction. I am certain that Amazon will not charge a huge percentage, and this is a GUESS, but more like an individual transaction cost. Plus, the special sticker will generate some revenue in terms of common coins selling above the average for the type.
Maybe Amazon is getting into the coin market in terms of retail. That would be an interesting development. >>
Heritage et al have been raking estate consignments for up to 17.5% for years. Amazon has HUGE potential to change the coin auction market for the better. There is nothing special about Heritage, SB, et. al. If you would not list your house for more than 6%, why would you consign for a 15% BP?? Takes a lot more effort to sell a house.......
OINK >>
Well healed sellers like these people now are, don't get clipped with 17.5% buyers fees. If anything they could get 105% of hammer. The buyers pay the vig. >>
The seller is absolutely paying the fee as the buyer will pay x. If the seller could contact the buyer directly, they would still pay x and the seller would get it all but in most cases you need the middle man to make the connection and it seams they do not work for free.
27K was a lot of money in the 1800s, like a million+ in today's money. That's more than any homesteader or normal person could stash. The coins being in great shape makes me wonder if it was some wealthy person or miner slowly getting new coins at the bank over almost 50 years or some stage coach robbers stash. With that much money there must be some history if they can link it.
Heritage et al have been raking estate consignments for up to 17.5% for years. Amazon has HUGE potential to change the coin auction market for the better. There is nothing special about Heritage, SB, et. al. If you would not list your house for more than 6%, why would you consign for a 15% BP?? Takes a lot more effort to sell a house.......
The fact that these sellers are working through Kagin's would suggest these sellers don't get raked for 15-27.5%. I don't see how Amazon would make any difference in the equation. Are they going to set up and conduct auction lot viewing of the coins they sell? You usually don't get great prices for important classic material through sight-unseen internet bidding. What's currently special about Heritage is their reach around the world into the largest collector and investor coin base available. Amazon would be years or decades from doing that in a field as specialized as rare coins. It only took Heritage 30 years to get where they are today. You don't see Teletrade, Great Collections, and other internet based firms making huge inroads into the Heritage and S/B base.
Fwiw while a house may sell for a typical net 6% commission that's probably pretty close for what the coin auction houses net on each sale (ie 4%-8%). I think you're dreaming if you feel Heritage and others pull down 17.5%. Maybe some uninformed estates succumbed to lack of information in years past. But, just by reading a few Forum coin threads and internet articles on auction practices any estate manager could quickly figure out that 105% of hammer is a pretty reasonable starting point. If Saddle River went to auction they should probably get something like 106-108% of hammer....and more than that on the high 5 figure and 6 figure lots. It does actually take quite a bit of effort to sell a multi-million dollar collection. I'd suspect the effort and cost to sell a $250K house and a $250K coin collection at auction is pretty similar. And probably most of the effort to get the house sold for a solid price is done by the owner, not the broker. Either could be sold in a single afternoon with little effort if you want fast cash and nowhere near full market value. How many dozens or hundreds of people are responsible for getting a major auction catalogued, advertised, and sold? Not many firms do it right....and do it well.
This is a neat collection of coins to be sure. I hope they get marketed properly to ensure the consignors get what they should.
<< <i>1. previous land owners will start lining up >>
I agree....assuming there are some. Big mistake in taking this collection national with this exposure? Yes, it will improve the prices realized. It was also improve the amount of claims being levied against the current owners. This couldn't have been kept low key? Well, they did consult with lawyers. And all the lawyers care about is improving and extending their fees. So this will definitely do that. My apologies to any forum member lawyers I may have just offended.
<< <i> That was my first thought, but I notice that they are not releasing the names or location of the finders.
My second thought was, what did they use to remove the rust stains, and did they have to turn off the sniffer to slab them. >>
Maybe they will be certified with the designation of "Buried Alive Effect," in keeping with the justification of using the "Shipwreck Effect" designation for coins that sat at the bottom of the ocean for over 100 years before being salvaged, curated, and then slabbed at NGC.
Or maybe the sniffer was in the shop for an oil change on that day.
Seriously though, it would be interesting to learn how the coins were curated. With the lofty grades assigned, the coins were either in very dry, stable soil, or someone is one heck of a curator--or both.
<<The fact that these sellers are working through Kagin's would suggest these sellers don't get raked for 15-27.5%. I don't see how Amazon would make any difference in the equation. Are they going to set up and conduct auction lot viewing of the coins they sell? You usually don't get great prices for important classic material through sight-unseen internet bidding. What's currently special about Heritage is their reach around the world into the largest collector and investor coin base available. Amazon would be years or decades from doing that in a field as specialized as rare coins. It only took Heritage 30 years to get where they are today. You don't see Teletrade, Great Collections, and other internet based firms making huge inroads into the Heritage and S/B base. >> I agree with you that most large transactions command +/- 105% hammer. But in my opinion that still leaves coins to be somewhat illiquid at the collector level who may just want to sell a few each year as part of upgrading a collection. eBay has improved that situation, but there are many drawbacks to their system, not the least of which is buyers have to deal with a wide range of sellers all with different business operating practices. Heritage, Sacks Bowers add a layer of credibility that is important to a buyer. I am reminded of the days of stock brokerage before Charles Schwab introduced low commission transactions. This created tremendous liquidity to the stock market. There does not seem to be a credible "Charles Schwab" in the coin business. Thus coins will continue to remain an expensive collection opportunity instead of an investment opportunity. My point was that a company like Amazon does have the ability to bring the necessary credibility to this market at a much more attractive vig than the existing players. Let's watch and see what happens with the Saddleback Hoard.
Wiki has some stuff about it that some of the articles didn't say.
Sort of interesting.
They had seen a can hanging in a tree that the tree had grown around it and saw an odd rock nearby. The treasure was 10 steps from the rock in the direction of the north star. And they found 8 cans, I think others said 6 cans. It might include the empty can in the tree plus a bigger can that contained smaller cans.
Regulated (David McCarthy) is a forum member here.
David, are you at liberty to say if the owners cleaned a few of the coins after they found them? I mean, being that they were not coin collectors, I assume that they took a tooth brush or two to a few of the coins. Just curious.
Also, congrats on being named in the Wikipedia page for the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Link to Wiki page
The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
<< <i>The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
Eric >>
Interesting insight, Eric. I suppose it is plausible that the original owners had the coins stored in their house, and when FDR's gold confiscation order hit in 1933 the owners buried their gold. Then they passed away unexpectedly and, well, the rest is history and a Wikipedia page.
Do people store coins in the ground anymore?
Zoins, yes, people do still bury coins in the ground. A few years ago, a gentleman in his 90s (accompanied by his three daughters) brought me several cans that he kept buried in his garden. They were filled with silver dollars. They were still wet and in really poor shape. I asked if they had a flood, and one daughter stated that they had dug them out of the garden just before coming to see me. True story.
I wouldn't have told anyone and can authenticate/evaluate with a loupe. On the flip side, it will increase interest and create a buzz now that they're housed in plastic with "Saddle Ridge Hoard" gold inserts. How soon will we see legal action?
The gold insert is quite nice, so is this particular example. From the PCGS article.
That is what I was thinking. A plausible possibility, and provides a motive too.
Eric >>
Well, I don't know ... if you had these really nice gold coins, I suppose that you could bury them for five minutes and say that they were "buried" and that you "found" them ... and that might create more buzz ... but some of the pictures show the coins in dirt inside the cans. I don't know that I'd throw dirt on valuable coins even if I was going to take them out right away.
These stories remind me of many stories I've heard of through my years in trading in the sports card mkt. Before I ramble on further let me state I have no reason/evidence to doubt the authenticity of this particular event as stated. Through the years with sports cards I've had fake a Babe Ruth Yankee signing contract offered to me to purchase,along with it's related story as to how it was obtained by the seller. It was fake. There are numerous copies floating out there. Old cards "found" in the strangest of places, how cards were obtained etc. Along with comments like "I don't know how much these are worth", "You are the first person I've shown these too",when I knew they had been offered to friends of mine before hand. All well and good,can't blame people trying to get the best deal. For me, and my view only, having experienced/read many of these types of stories it is less impressing to me as the years go by. I've resigned myself to judge the item for what it is, as is, not where it came from. For me" Buy the coin/card not the holder or the story". That said I hope they reap millions.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I am guessing the top of that "gold" insert IS Saddle Ridge? I hope the golds do not clash. Speaking generally, I am not in favor of colored inserts. Some paintings look better in certain frames. Color context. My .02.
<< <i>What about the inheritance laws, relatives of prior owners, whoever lived on that property at the time, does anyone see the lawsuits coming? What if there's a Will that describes such gold coins but the whereabouts were unknown? I just can't imagine someone burying this much gold and not letting someone know about it before they died. hmmm >>
That was my first thought, but I notice that they are not releasing the names or location of the finders.
My second thought was, what did they use to remove the rust stains, and did they have to turn off the sniffer to slab them. >>
Any common rust remover that you can buy in the grocery store should work. Presumably they maybe got some advice before proceeding.
There are some details I would love to know. The article I read said they found 7 cans of coins. I wonder if the dates on the coins in each can show that the cans were buried individually over a period of time or if the 1890's coins were mixed with the 1860's coins in each can. Some of those coins just look too good to have been in the ground for all that time. I would love to see what they looked like before restoration.
<< <i>Walking a dog too, wonder if it was a Golden Retriever.
-D >>
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The article says they are worth $10M so I am guessing 1% of that or $100K. Maybe a slight discount to say $80K in grading fees. Below that it really isn't worth it to PCGS as they have to assume warranty risk. Maybe that is the reason David Hall and Van Simmons sold some of their CLCT stock. They were rumored to have sold stock and bought coins. Maybe they bought the top pops for themselves. >>
Although I'm sure PCGS has made other arrangements, the standard submission cost for grading is $32/coin. Is Amazon auctioning these coins or selling them?
The article says they are worth $10M so I am guessing 1% of that or $100K. Maybe a slight discount to say $80K in grading fees. Below that it really isn't worth it to PCGS as they have to assume warranty risk. Maybe that is the reason David Hall and Van Simmons sold some of their CLCT stock. They were rumored to have sold stock and bought coins. Maybe they bought the top pops for themselves. >>
Although I'm sure PCGS has made other arrangements, the standard submission cost for grading is $32/coin. Is Amazon auctioning these coins or selling them? >>
check again, High value coins now have a 1% value kicker. Why would you certify, grade, and WARRANTY a $1M coin for $32?
So a guy once asked me to appraise his gold coins. He pulled out a foot-long piece of PVC pipe, takes the cap off one of the ends and pours out about three dozen U.S. Gold coins. I asked him, "What's with the pipe?" He replied, "I keep these buried in my back yard."
So after doing the evaluation, I tried to enlighten him about safe deposit boxes and told him that someone is going to see him out there burying his coins and they're going to hit him over the head WITH HIS OWN SHOVEL! But, he was comfortable with his decision and scooped them back into his pipe.
<< <i>So a guy once asked me to appraise his gold coins. He pulled out a foot-long piece of PVC pipe, takes the cap off one of the ends and pours out about three dozen U.S. Gold coins. I asked him, "What's with the pipe?" He replied, "I keep these buried in my back yard."
So after doing the evaluation, I tried to enlighten him about safe deposit boxes and told him that someone is going to see him out there burying his coins and they're going to hit him over the head WITH HIS OWN SHOVEL! But, he was comfortable with his decision and scooped them back into his pipe. >>
Hence the very old term "Midnight Gardener"
You dug up or buried your gold at night so the neighbors wouldn't see you doing it.
<< <i>There are some details I would love to know. The article I read said they found 7 cans of coins. I wonder if the dates on the coins in each can show that the cans were buried individually over a period of time or if the 1890's coins were mixed with the 1860's coins in each can. Some of those coins just look too good to have been in the ground for all that time. I would love to see what they looked like before restoration. >>
The articles that I read stated that the coins were somewhat ordered as if they were placed over time.
The finders should have kept it secret and brought out the coins slowly and discretely over time....
THE MOST EXCITING NEWS IN NUMISMATICS SINCE THE SALE OF THE 1933 SAINT!!
I am still saying "WoW, WoW, WoW"!
There is NO WAY these should sell on any retail venue. They will get maximum value in an auction! Unquestionably. I can't believe that Don Kagin would sell them on Amazon.
Thanks for the Wiki link - can't believe everything on the internet - I suspect the hoard was discovered before Feb. 2014!
The interview is interesting - partly explains why it's being revealed as a hoard rather than selling one at a time. Best part of the Wiki is the source references at the end.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
<< <i>THE MOST EXCITING NEWS IN NUMISMATICS SINCE THE SALE OF THE 1933 SAINT!!
I am still saying "WoW, WoW, WoW"!
There is NO WAY these should sell on any retail venue. They will get maximum value in an auction! Unquestionably. I can't believe that Don Kagin would sell them on Amazon. >>
It would seem that since he doesn't own the coins, it isn't his call to make. He may have advised otherwise and his advice was ignored.
<< <i>There are some details I would love to know. The article I read said they found 7 cans of coins. I wonder if the dates on the coins in each can show that the cans were buried individually over a period of time or if the 1890's coins were mixed with the 1860's coins in each can. Some of those coins just look too good to have been in the ground for all that time. I would love to see what they looked like before restoration. >>
The articles that I read stated that the coins were somewhat ordered as if they were placed over time.
The finders should have kept it secret and brought out the coins slowly and discretely over time.... >>
The publicity that comes with this will be absolutely fantastic for the coin market.
Who hasn't dreamed of finding a hoard of gold coins?
You don't have to be a coin collector to have such fantasies. Here is a fantasy come to life!
Dave Wnuck. Redbook contributor; long time PNG Member; listed on the PCGS Board of Experts. PM me with your email address to receive my e-newsletter, and visit DaveWcoins.com Find me on eBay at davewcoins
Yes, this is a really neat story and will be good for the hobby. I was always intrigued by the Jackson, TN hoard that was unearthed in 1985. I'm looking forward to seeing part of the Saddle Ridge hoard at the Atlanta ANA!
Just wait and see how many search the land records to see who owned the property in the mid 1800s so then can file a claim to the coins? Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take.
<< <i>They would probably have been better off just having them slabbed and quietly selling them via a major auction. The publicity could bring unwanted attention from scammers, thieves or claimants that could tie the hoard up in court and cost them huge legal fees.
I hope they don't run into any trouble. >>
Sadly, that course of action would have been the best for them but how many treasures of historical significance have gone this way undocumented with the history lost. At least not publishing their name might thin out the con artist crowd a bit. But the state of California may be their biggest headache.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
YET there's a $20 1866-S that is a MAJOR RARITY! That is the potential $million coin.
1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million • 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million • 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known) • 1873 $20 Double Eagle (Closed 3) graded MS62 (tied finest known) • 1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known) • 1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known) • 1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) • 1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) >>
So the question is, who has the current top rated registry sets now that excludes these coins? I assume they would want the top pop for their sets. Is Simpson one of those guys?
Re Government taxes: don't they get 39% for Feds and whatever the top bracket is for CA? So almost 50% in total?
Comments
What are the benefits of NOT keeping a low profile, NOT quietly getting the coins graded and selling quietly over a few years??
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>Walking a dog too, wonder if it was a Golden Retriever.
-D >>
<< <i>This is every metal detectors dream find. And these people found the first can sticking out of the ground?? Amazing.
What are the benefits of NOT keeping a low profile, NOT quietly getting the coins graded and selling quietly over a few years?? >>
If the question is literal: There's time value to money. Maybe they're aware that the money today is worth more than it is in ten, fifteen, or twenty years. Perhaps they're intelligent enough to re-invest the money. Perhaps they believe the attention will drive more potential buyers their way, the free advertising from news publications and things like that. Contrary, they could also just want the money now, so that they can swim in it like Scrooge McDuck.
I hope it's the latter.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Before they sell them, they are loaning some to the American Numismatic Association for its National Money Show, which opens Thursday in Atlanta.
This should be interesting! >>
Excellent PR/Marketing move on their part.
<< <i>
<< <i><<Perhaps there were many common, circulated coins that are not particularly rare. It might make sense to sell common MS61 coins via Amazon and keep the cream of the find for auction. I am certain that Amazon will not charge a huge percentage, and this is a GUESS, but more like an individual transaction cost. Plus, the special sticker will generate some revenue in terms of common coins selling above the average for the type.
Maybe Amazon is getting into the coin market in terms of retail. That would be an interesting development.
>>
Heritage et al have been raking estate consignments for up to 17.5% for years. Amazon has HUGE potential to change the coin auction market for the better. There is nothing special about Heritage, SB, et. al. If you would not list your house for more than 6%, why would you consign for a 15% BP?? Takes a lot more effort to sell a house.......
OINK >>
Well healed sellers like these people now are, don't get clipped with 17.5% buyers fees. If anything they could get 105% of hammer. The buyers pay the vig. >>
The seller is absolutely paying the fee as the buyer will pay x. If the seller could contact the buyer directly, they would still pay x and the seller would get it all but in most cases you need the middle man to make the connection and it seams they do not work for free.
That's more than any homesteader or normal person could stash.
The coins being in great shape makes me wonder if it was some wealthy person or miner slowly getting new coins at the bank over almost 50 years or some stage coach robbers stash. With that much money there must be some history if they can link it.
Also odd, it's in "Gold County".
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
Eric
The fact that these sellers are working through Kagin's would suggest these sellers don't get raked for 15-27.5%. I don't see how Amazon would make any difference in the equation. Are they going to set up and conduct
auction lot viewing of the coins they sell? You usually don't get great prices for important classic material through sight-unseen internet bidding. What's currently special about Heritage is their reach around the world into the largest
collector and investor coin base available. Amazon would be years or decades from doing that in a field as specialized as rare coins. It only took Heritage 30 years to get where they are today. You don't see Teletrade, Great
Collections, and other internet based firms making huge inroads into the Heritage and S/B base.
Fwiw while a house may sell for a typical net 6% commission that's probably pretty close for what the coin auction houses net on each sale (ie 4%-8%). I think you're dreaming if you feel Heritage and others pull down 17.5%.
Maybe some uninformed estates succumbed to lack of information in years past. But, just by reading a few Forum coin threads and internet articles on auction practices any estate manager could quickly figure out that 105% of
hammer is a pretty reasonable starting point. If Saddle River went to auction they should probably get something like 106-108% of hammer....and more than that on the high 5 figure and 6 figure lots. It does actually take quite a
bit of effort to sell a multi-million dollar collection. I'd suspect the effort and cost to sell a $250K house and a $250K coin collection at auction is pretty similar. And probably most of the effort to get the house sold for a solid price
is done by the owner, not the broker. Either could be sold in a single afternoon with little effort if you want fast cash and nowhere near full market value. How many dozens or hundreds of people are responsible for getting a
major auction catalogued, advertised, and sold? Not many firms do it right....and do it well.
This is a neat collection of coins to be sure. I hope they get marketed properly to ensure the consignors get what they should.
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>1. previous land owners will start lining up >>
I agree....assuming there are some. Big mistake in taking this collection national with this exposure? Yes, it will improve the prices realized. It was also improve the amount of claims being levied against the current owners.
This couldn't have been kept low key? Well, they did consult with lawyers. And all the lawyers care about is improving and extending their fees. So this will definitely do that. My apologies to any forum member lawyers I may
have just offended.
<< <i>
That was my first thought, but I notice that they are not releasing the names or location of the finders.
My second thought was, what did they use to remove the rust stains, and did they have to turn off the sniffer to slab them. >>
Maybe they will be certified with the designation of "Buried Alive Effect," in keeping with the justification of using the "Shipwreck Effect" designation for coins that sat at the bottom of the ocean for over 100 years before being salvaged, curated, and then slabbed at NGC.
Or maybe the sniffer was in the shop for an oil change on that day.
Seriously though, it would be interesting to learn how the coins were curated. With the lofty grades assigned, the coins were either in very dry, stable soil, or someone is one heck of a curator--or both.
auction lot viewing of the coins they sell? You usually don't get great prices for important classic material through sight-unseen internet bidding. What's currently special about Heritage is their reach around the world into the largest
collector and investor coin base available. Amazon would be years or decades from doing that in a field as specialized as rare coins. It only took Heritage 30 years to get where they are today. You don't see Teletrade, Great Collections, and other internet based firms making huge inroads into the Heritage and S/B base.
>>
I agree with you that most large transactions command +/- 105% hammer. But in my opinion that still leaves coins to be somewhat illiquid at the collector level who may just want to sell a few each year as part of upgrading a collection. eBay has improved that situation, but there are many drawbacks to their system, not the least of which is buyers have to deal with a wide range of sellers all with different business operating practices. Heritage, Sacks Bowers add a layer of credibility that is important to a buyer. I am reminded of the days of stock brokerage before Charles Schwab introduced low commission transactions. This created tremendous liquidity to the stock market. There does not seem to be a credible "Charles Schwab" in the coin business. Thus coins will continue to remain an expensive collection opportunity instead of an investment opportunity. My point was that a company like Amazon does have the ability to bring the necessary credibility to this market at a much more attractive vig than the existing players. Let's watch and see what happens with the Saddleback Hoard.
Sort of interesting.
They had seen a can hanging in a tree that the tree had grown around it and saw an odd rock nearby.
The treasure was 10 steps from the rock in the direction of the north star.
And they found 8 cans, I think others said 6 cans. It might include the empty can in the tree plus a bigger can that contained smaller cans.
Wiki link
Regulated (David McCarthy) is a forum member here.
David, are you at liberty to say if the owners cleaned a few of the coins after they found them? I mean, being that they were not coin collectors, I assume that they took a tooth brush or two to a few of the coins. Just curious.
Also, congrats on being named in the Wikipedia page for the Saddle Ridge Hoard. Link to Wiki page
Opps. Sorry GrumpyEd. I didn't see that you linked the page.
Eric
Do people store coins in the ground anymore?
<< <i>What's more romantic, a buried hoard in the wild or a buried hoard in a bank vault (Wells Fargo)?
Do people store coins in the ground anymore?
I think the first thing these folks did was..bury them in the ground.
Eric
<< <i>The large can appears to be a resealable can. Not soldered or swap-top. I'm thinking maybe 1920-1935 from the condition and design. Those are tin plated steel I think and are from sometime in the first quarter of the century or so. Aluminum (not) would be C. 1950/later, steel alone would place this much earlier - all steel and I don't think we be looking at cans.
Eric >>
Interesting insight, Eric. I suppose it is plausible that the original owners had the coins stored in their house, and when FDR's gold confiscation order hit in 1933 the owners buried their gold. Then they passed away unexpectedly and, well, the rest is history and a Wikipedia page.
Do people store coins in the ground anymore?
Zoins, yes, people do still bury coins in the ground. A few years ago, a gentleman in his 90s (accompanied by his three daughters) brought me several cans that he kept buried in his garden. They were filled with silver dollars. They were still wet and in really poor shape. I asked if they had a flood, and one daughter stated that they had dug them out of the garden just before coming to see me. True story.
That is what I was thinking. A plausible possibility, and provides a motive too.
Eric
The gold insert is quite nice, so is this particular example. From the PCGS article.
<< <i>Hello Zoins,
That is what I was thinking. A plausible possibility, and provides a motive too.
Eric >>
Well, I don't know ... if you had these really nice gold coins, I suppose that you could bury them for five minutes and say that they were "buried" and that you "found" them ... and that might create more buzz ... but some of the pictures show the coins in dirt inside the cans. I don't know that I'd throw dirt on valuable coins even if I was going to take them out right away.
Eric
anyone able to look up the certs?
this is the crap i get when i look em up - That Cert is not available for display.
.
While I was walking my dog thru this thread, he did manage to uncover quite a bit of tin foil...
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the inheritance laws, relatives of prior owners, whoever lived on that property at the time, does anyone see the lawsuits coming? What if there's a Will that describes such gold coins but the whereabouts were unknown? I just can't imagine someone burying this much gold and not letting someone know about it before they died. hmmm >>
That was my first thought, but I notice that they are not releasing the names or location of the finders.
My second thought was, what did they use to remove the rust stains, and did they have to turn off the sniffer to slab them. >>
Any common rust remover that you can buy in the grocery store should work. Presumably they maybe got some advice before proceeding.
<< <i>Walking a dog too, wonder if it was a Golden Retriever.
-D >>
GOOD ONE!!
<< <i>Wonder if the haul of any robberies back in the nineteenth century correspond with this find?
Highly unlikely that a robbery would yield such an array of dates; more likely to be lots of just one or a few dates.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>Walking a dog too, wonder if it was a Golden Retriever.
-D >>
<< <i>
<< <i>What do you suppose grading fees were? >>
The article says they are worth $10M so I am guessing 1% of that or $100K. Maybe a slight discount to say $80K in grading fees. Below that it really isn't worth it to PCGS as they have to assume warranty risk. Maybe that is the reason David Hall and Van Simmons sold some of their CLCT stock. They were rumored to have sold stock and bought coins. Maybe they bought the top pops for themselves. >>
Although I'm sure PCGS has made other arrangements, the standard submission cost for grading is $32/coin.
Is Amazon auctioning these coins or selling them?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What do you suppose grading fees were? >>
The article says they are worth $10M so I am guessing 1% of that or $100K. Maybe a slight discount to say $80K in grading fees. Below that it really isn't worth it to PCGS as they have to assume warranty risk. Maybe that is the reason David Hall and Van Simmons sold some of their CLCT stock. They were rumored to have sold stock and bought coins. Maybe they bought the top pops for themselves. >>
Although I'm sure PCGS has made other arrangements, the standard submission cost for grading is $32/coin.
Is Amazon auctioning these coins or selling them? >>
check again, High value coins now have a 1% value kicker. Why would you certify, grade, and WARRANTY a $1M coin for $32?
Crossovers also have a 1% value kicker as well.
So after doing the evaluation, I tried to enlighten him about safe deposit boxes and told him that someone is going to see him out there burying his coins and they're going to hit him over the head WITH HIS OWN SHOVEL! But, he was comfortable with his decision and scooped them back into his pipe.
<< <i>So a guy once asked me to appraise his gold coins. He pulled out a foot-long piece of PVC pipe, takes the cap off one of the ends and pours out about three dozen U.S. Gold coins. I asked him, "What's with the pipe?" He replied, "I keep these buried in my back yard."
So after doing the evaluation, I tried to enlighten him about safe deposit boxes and told him that someone is going to see him out there burying his coins and they're going to hit him over the head WITH HIS OWN SHOVEL! But, he was comfortable with his decision and scooped them back into his pipe. >>
Hence the very old term "Midnight Gardener"
You dug up or buried your gold at night so the neighbors wouldn't see you doing it.
And Theres David Hall talking about the hoard.
Steve
<< <i>There are some details I would love to know. The article I read said they found 7 cans of coins. I wonder if the dates on the coins in each can show that the cans were buried individually over a period of time or if the 1890's coins were mixed with the 1860's coins in each can. Some of those coins just look too good to have been in the ground for all that time. I would love to see what they looked like before restoration. >>
The articles that I read stated that the coins were somewhat ordered as if they were placed over time.
The finders should have kept it secret and brought out the coins slowly and discretely over time....
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
I am still saying "WoW, WoW, WoW"!
There is NO WAY these should sell on any retail venue. They will get maximum value in an auction! Unquestionably. I can't believe that Don Kagin would sell them on Amazon.
The interview is interesting - partly explains why it's being revealed as a hoard rather than selling one at a time. Best part of the Wiki is the source references at the end.
Interview on Kagin's website
<< <i>THE MOST EXCITING NEWS IN NUMISMATICS SINCE THE SALE OF THE 1933 SAINT!!
I am still saying "WoW, WoW, WoW"!
There is NO WAY these should sell on any retail venue. They will get maximum value in an auction! Unquestionably. I can't believe that Don Kagin would sell them on Amazon.
It would seem that since he doesn't own the coins, it isn't his call to make. He may have advised otherwise and his advice was ignored.
<< <i>
<< <i>There are some details I would love to know. The article I read said they found 7 cans of coins. I wonder if the dates on the coins in each can show that the cans were buried individually over a period of time or if the 1890's coins were mixed with the 1860's coins in each can. Some of those coins just look too good to have been in the ground for all that time. I would love to see what they looked like before restoration. >>
The articles that I read stated that the coins were somewhat ordered as if they were placed over time.
The finders should have kept it secret and brought out the coins slowly and discretely over time....
Yep. To let it go public is incredibly dumb IMO.
Who hasn't dreamed of finding a hoard of gold coins?
You don't have to be a coin collector to have such fantasies. Here is a fantasy come to life!
<< <i>The publicity that comes with this will be absolutely fantastic for the coin market.
Who hasn't dreamed of finding a hoard of gold coins?
You don't have to be a coin collector to have such fantasies. Here is a fantasy come to life! >>
Once their identity is revealed, it may not be so fantastic for them.
Box of 20
Is the state or federal government going to tax this find? I'll bet the guberment is already checking tax laws to see how much they can take.
YET there's a $20 1866-S that is a MAJOR RARITY! That is the potential $million coin.
1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known)
• 1873 $20 Double Eagle (Closed 3) graded MS62 (tied finest known)
• 1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known)
• 1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known)
• 1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)
• 1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)
<< <i>They would probably have been better off just having them slabbed and quietly selling them via a major auction. The publicity could bring unwanted attention from scammers, thieves or claimants that could tie the hoard up in court and cost them huge legal fees.
I hope they don't run into any trouble. >>
Sadly, that course of action would have been the best for them but how many treasures of historical significance have gone this way undocumented with the history lost. At least not publishing their name might thin out the con artist crowd a bit. But the state of California may be their biggest headache.
<< <i>All the publicity for the $10 1866-S....
YET there's a $20 1866-S that is a MAJOR RARITY! That is the potential $million coin.
1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/no motto valued at around $1 million
• 1866-S $20 Double Eagle/with motto PCGS MS62+ (finest known)
• 1873 $20 Double Eagle (Closed 3) graded MS62 (tied finest known)
• 1877-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied finest known)
• 1888-S $20 Double Eagle (four) PCGS MS64 (tied for finest known)
• 1889-S $20 Double Eagle (two) graded PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known)
• 1894-S $20 Double Eagle PCGS MS65 (tied for finest known) >>
So the question is, who has the current top rated registry sets now that excludes these coins? I assume they would want the top pop for their sets. Is Simpson one of those guys?
Re Government taxes: don't they get 39% for Feds and whatever the top bracket is for CA? So almost 50% in total?