""The hoard's coins don't have what experts call "bag marks," which they would expect to see on coins that had been vaulted for any length of time." THIS is the statement I have a big problem with. So these are all MS70 coins? Doubt it. Once something is put in a vault and stays there it isn't going to pick up a lot of bagmarks...so this statement makes me think the guy's just reaching now. Odd coming from a senior numismatist.
"None of the hoard coins have dates after 1894, which would mean they would have been stored for six years at a minimum if they were from the mint job. "Who keeps 6-year-old inventory, especially of something that is not hard to get rid of?" McCarthy said"
Who does that? Um....that would be...THE U.S. MINT. Two words....GSA hoard. "
I represented an estate that contained several hundred GSA holdered coins purchased as they came from the sale and purchased at coin shows within a few years thereafter. The decedent had complete records of all of his purchases, and the ones he purchased directly were still in the shipping boxes. He was a hoarder, not a collector, and liked to buy in quantity. Whether purchased from the GSA or at shows, he cared nothing for condition. These coins were baggy as all get out, as in 62 would be a very generous average grade. Only a handful of his hoard would have been even close to gems. Coins stored in bags in vaults do get moved around and do pick up bag marks, often a lot, and 20's are heavy.
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
<< <i>“If anybody wants to send us a list of missing coins with some specifics, we’ll be happy to help them out,” Kagin said. “But not a single theory that has come to us indicates this hoard came from anything other than a single person who didn’t trust banks. The attorneys of the owners of the coins thoroughly searched property records and researched this, and the only thing they could determine is that whoever buried the coins might have been in the mining industry.” >>
:chuckle
As I've long proffered, a miner's booty. Oh yeah, a big nasty California bear killed him minutes after he buried that last tin can. If they search hard enough, they'll find his Levi jeans with 2 or 3 gold coins in the pocket remnants.
Thank you for the link. I am glad to see that reason has prevailed!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
>>
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value.
We will now resume the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" portion of our program.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
“There is nothing connecting these coins to any theft from the Mint,” said U.S. Mint spokesman Adam Stump. “We’ve done quite a bit of research, and we’ve got a crack team of lawyers, and trust me, if this was U.S. government property we’d be going after it.”
THIS is compelling. When a mint official states this you know they looked hard at the possibility, under the watch of the Dept. of the Treasury. This is what I want to hear, positive comments from the source. I'm an anti-conspiracy person. I saw circumstantial evidence but until now heard nothing from any source other than the media. Open mind....yep. Want these to be free and legit...absolutely. I did from the very start and I called Steve Duckor and John Albanese immediately. We all were excited.
Actually the first doubt that I heard was from a source that is very key to this entire affair, very significant in numismatics. The comment was "I think there is more to this story". It was not a judgment but a statement. Then the stories started breaking.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
>>
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value. >>
<< <i>“There is nothing connecting these coins to any theft from the Mint,” said U.S. Mint spokesman Adam Stump. “We’ve done quite a bit of research, and we’ve got a crack team of lawyers, and trust me, if this was U.S. government property we’d be going after it.”
THIS is compelling. When a mint official states this you know they looked hard at the possibility, under the watch of the Dept. of the Treasury. This is what I want to hear, positive comments from the source. I'm an anti-conspiracy person. I saw circumstantial evidence but until now heard nothing from any source other than the media. Open mind....yep. Want these to be free and legit...absolutely. I did from the very start and I called Steve Duckor and John Albanese immediately. We all were excited.
Actually the first doubt that I heard was from a source that is very key to this entire affair, very significant in numismatics. The comment was "I think there is more to this story". It was not a judgment but a statement. Then the stories started breaking.
Jack Trout (a historian and and collector of rare coins) told the San Francisco Chronicle that an 1866 Liberty $20 gold piece without the words “In God We Trust” was part of the buried stash, and the coin may fetch over $1 million at auction because it's so rare.
“This was someone’s private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint),” Trout told the newspaper. “It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don’t believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint.”
Maybe Jack Trout is wrong but maybe he's right. It seems that this adds another specific piece of circumstantial evidence. I don't want these to be stolen...I love rare coins...but I am pretty damn convinced they are.
""This was someone's private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint)," Trout told the newspaper. "It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don't believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint." "
It is obvious that this man doesn't have a clue about certain well known facts regarding the 1866-S No Motto $20 pieces. Specifically:
<< <i>I thought the 'man & wife' said they found this hoard while out walking their dog in the Sierra foothills.
Where do the lies start and stop? Belvedere is no foothill community. I've had my share of gin & tonics at the bar at SFYC when I raced a Cal boat in the 70's from there.
The tale is getting leakier by the minute. >>
And where the hell is Belvedere coming from?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Well the news article on yahoo says The couple found it on their Tiburon property which is a city in Marin county right across the bridge from San Fransico! The Dimmick theft sounds more possible again to me. >>
Please provide that link since all the stories I have read or that have been linked puts "Kagin's" in Tiburoin and specifically state that the couple lives in the "Gold Country" with no specific location mentioned.
I swear, reading through this entire post has shown an incredible amount if distrust, jealousy, conspiracy, and just out and out baloney!
$1.5 million stolen and a week later $1.5 million found? Huh? $30,000 stolen from the US Mint in 1901 and $27,000 found in 2013? Huh?
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
@19Lyds ... as I mentioned in my "sloppy journalism" thread, Mr. Trout said that the Lincoln reverge commemorative (i.e., a normal 1866-S No Motto $20) was made by somebody at the "Granite Lady." An amazing feat, considering that the cornerstone for "The Granite Lady" was not laid down until 1870.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Walter Dimmick was son of sarah yost and a Philo J. they were from deer park Il, where my dads family originated from , My dad's family moved to Jackson MI.
The problem is my dad has passed away over 20 years ago as well as my mom , so I cant get the exact geneology , but do know that my dad is related to Sara Yost (Dimmick) and Philo J. I think my dads father was a brother to Philo
When the article about the theft was published in the Numismatist back in 06, my parents as well as my dads older sisters and brothers were long since passed, so I was not able to show them or get more info. Also my older brother has passed as well. It would be interesting to know exactly the chain of family .
Back when the article came out in 2006 , (long before any word or knowledge of this find) several people commented to me how much Walter Dimmick resembled me in looks in the first pic, the picture of him in the san Quentin outfit , could literally be my older brother (brothers not in jail, just a lot of resemblance to my brother in that pic)
In the article , it mentioned that walter had moved to California, there are some dimmicks decended down from them as well over in that area as my brother had run into a few back in the late 70's early 80's when he was stationed there in the military.
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else.
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
Yes. Currently they belong to the couple that found them. And soon, they'll belong to other people.
Where did they come from? Simple. Someone buried them and then passed away. That "someone" is unknown. There were lots and lots of folks (there still are) that mined gold in the Gold Country Area. There are also more folks that simply DO NOT trust banks in any way shape or form. This is nothing new but I think that the number of folks that have actually buried their nest eggs in lieu of putting them in the bank, via account of SDB, would surprise a lot people.
As stated earlier, I don't think that Kagin nor his or the couples attorney's are idiots and they most certainly have explored all the different scenario's that have been portrayed on this thread and the countless unsubstantiated news stories. As such, I believe that the hoard has been truthfully vetted despite the efforts of those who simply do not have clue.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
>>
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
"IMO, the coin is a first strike from the regular production dies, that happened to get saved and ended up in numismatic channels.
That would be the real story behind this nice coin.
Edited to add the rest of the story -
After doing some quick research and looking for an answer to the reason for such a coin being saved, I uncovered the original appearance for this particular coin.
It came from the James B. Longacre estate (the coin's designer), and was sold in the January 21, 1870 auction sale conducted by
M(oses) Thomas & Sons in Philadelphia. It was lot #178.
The lot description was: "1850, Double Eagle, proof. This piece was from the first dies used for the double eagle, and might be termed a trial piece." "
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value. >>
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? ….. >>
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me.
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009.
Looks like the Saddle Ridge Hoard is now officially old news. The world has moved on. Three whole days and no further posts on this, the mother lode of Saddle Ridge Hoard threads. (Maybe the OP needs to go back and rename this thread, "The Official Saddle Ridge Hoard Thread."
<< <i>Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of how remote.
Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
Only the rightful owner has clear title to property that was stolen. It doesn't matter how many times the stolen property changes hands, it will always belong to the rightful owner as none of the people buying/selling had title to do so. Their recourse is with the person who sold it to them.
If an insurance company paid a claim on the stolen property, the stolen property belongs to the insurance company.
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
Look I told you 100 times already, a shiny semi transparent old guy showed up the night my Coin was delivered and he just took it. Oh and he smelled like sulfer. So if you want the Coin back, go talk to him. Yeah he left on an old burro. Well yes that burro was semi transparent also.
Ghost of an old 49'er? You tell me.
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
May I assume that you are asking a hypothetical question, since these coins are not stolen property???
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
May I assume that you are asking a hypothetical question, since these coins are not stolen property??? >>
Stolen or lost doesn't matter. If someone can prove rightful ownership, they can claim the coins I would imagine. I would think that part of the due diligence would be to investigate all previous owners of the property and determine the likelihood that any of them could have the means to acquire and hide them and to be as certain as possible that nobody will be able to claim ownership. If a non owner of the property hid them, they are pretty much lost and forgotten.
Yes, he and I talked on the phone today about the gold coin hoard and other things. He's a professional fly fisherman, but also a coin collector. He's a very nice guy, and from what I understand, the press did not properly quote him. I won't attempt to explain, since Jack is obviously knows more about what happened than anyone in the world. He said that he even got a death threat because of this whole debacle.
I invited him to this forum to discuss the Saddle Ridge hoard, and also because he could benefit from the coin community we have here. Welcome aboard, Jack!
Mr. Trout, please introduce yourself. I would like to hear your version of the Lincoln Revenge Coin story attributed to you.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
...when I was growing up my pops took me fishing a couple times at Flaming Gorge in Wyoming...we would yank out monster 25-30 pound Mackerel to which the locals referred to as "lake trout." They were way too oily to eat but they look good above the fire place
Mr. Trout, please join us. We won't bite. (No fishing joke intended,)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
...when I was growing up my pops took me fishing a couple times at Flaming Gorge in Wyoming...we would yank out monster 25-30 pound Mackerel to which the locals referred to as "lake trout." They were way too oily to eat but they look good above the fire place
Erik >>
Ever try it in a fish boil to get rid of the oil?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
""The hoard's coins don't have what experts call "bag marks," which they would expect to see on coins that had been vaulted for any length of time."
THIS is the statement I have a big problem with. So these are all MS70 coins? Doubt it. Once something is put in a vault and stays there it isn't going to pick up a lot of bagmarks...so this statement makes me think the guy's just reaching now. Odd coming from a senior numismatist.
"None of the hoard coins have dates after 1894, which would mean they would have been stored for six years at a minimum if they were from the mint job. "Who keeps 6-year-old inventory, especially of something that is not hard to get rid of?" McCarthy said"
Who does that? Um....that would be...THE U.S. MINT. Two words....GSA hoard. "
I represented an estate that contained several hundred GSA holdered coins purchased as they came from the sale and purchased at coin shows within a few years thereafter. The decedent had complete records of all of his purchases, and the ones he purchased directly were still in the shipping boxes. He was a hoarder, not a collector, and liked to buy in quantity. Whether purchased from the GSA or at shows, he cared nothing for condition. These coins were baggy as all get out, as in 62 would be a very generous average grade. Only a handful of his hoard would have been even close to gems. Coins stored in bags in vaults do get moved around and do pick up bag marks, often a lot, and 20's are heavy.
<< <i>One of dimmick's relatives is sitting right here typing on the keys >>
You should contact the media and give them your theory. Since you are a distant relative, they will eat it up and you will be famous overnight!
<< <i>One of dimmick's relatives is sitting right here typing on the keys >>
You and your wife just need to keep on doing what you've been doing. Stick to the story. Dont change anything.
<< <i>One of dimmick's relatives is sitting right here typing on the keys >>
Do tell your story please! Where are the stolen coins?
Mint Officals say 1901 Mint Heist Unlikely source of Hoard
<< <i>“If anybody wants to send us a list of missing coins with some specifics, we’ll be happy to help them out,” Kagin said. “But not a single theory that has come to us indicates this hoard came from anything other than a single person who didn’t trust banks. The attorneys of the owners of the coins thoroughly searched property records and researched this, and the only thing they could determine is that whoever buried the coins might have been in the mining industry.” >>
:chuckle
As I've long proffered, a miner's booty. Oh yeah, a big nasty California bear killed him minutes after he buried that last tin can. If they search hard enough, they'll find his Levi jeans with 2 or 3 gold coins in the pocket remnants.
<< <i>Here is the Update:
Mint Officals say 1901 Mint Heist Unlikely source of Hoard >>
Thank you for the link. I am glad to see that reason has prevailed!
<< <i>wow! A story that actually has facts and makes sense.
Who needs that when we can have wild speculation and illogical conclusions!
That was an interesting read and an end to speculation - but "printed"? I've seen "stamped" but "printed"?
Eric
<< <i>That was an interesting read and an end to speculation - but "printed"? I've seen "stamped" but "printed"?
Eric >>
Too bad that 3-D Printer got smashed in the San Francisco Earthquake.
Erik
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<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Click and then Scroll down for firstmint's Post Re: the coin's designer, Longacre, having preserved this $20 1850 >>
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value.
Now, does anybody know what happened to Dimmick, was he released? Die in prison?
<< <i>CNN Link
Erik >>
We will now resume the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" portion of our program.
THIS is compelling. When a mint official states this you know they looked hard at the possibility, under the watch of the Dept. of the Treasury. This is what I want to hear, positive comments from the source. I'm an anti-conspiracy person. I saw circumstantial evidence but until now heard nothing from any source other than the media. Open mind....yep. Want these to be free and legit...absolutely. I did from the very start and I called Steve Duckor and John Albanese immediately. We all were excited.
Actually the first doubt that I heard was from a source that is very key to this entire affair, very significant in numismatics. The comment was "I think there is more to this story". It was not a judgment but a statement. Then the stories started breaking.
I do want to see these sell.
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<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Click and then Scroll down for firstmint's Post Re: the coin's designer, Longacre, having preserved this $20 1850 >>
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value. >>
Repeated here!
NGC coin
PCGS coin
<< <i>“There is nothing connecting these coins to any theft from the Mint,” said U.S. Mint spokesman Adam Stump. “We’ve done quite a bit of research, and we’ve got a crack team of lawyers, and trust me, if this was U.S. government property we’d be going after it.”
THIS is compelling. When a mint official states this you know they looked hard at the possibility, under the watch of the Dept. of the Treasury. This is what I want to hear, positive comments from the source. I'm an anti-conspiracy person. I saw circumstantial evidence but until now heard nothing from any source other than the media. Open mind....yep. Want these to be free and legit...absolutely. I did from the very start and I called Steve Duckor and John Albanese immediately. We all were excited.
Actually the first doubt that I heard was from a source that is very key to this entire affair, very significant in numismatics. The comment was "I think there is more to this story". It was not a judgment but a statement. Then the stories started breaking.
I do want to see these sell.
Are you going to buy any?
<< <i>UH OH! From ABC News...
Jack Trout (a historian and and collector of rare coins) told the San Francisco Chronicle that an 1866 Liberty $20 gold piece without the words “In God We Trust” was part of the buried stash, and the coin may fetch over $1 million at auction because it's so rare.
“This was someone’s private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint),” Trout told the newspaper. “It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don’t believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint.”
Maybe Jack Trout is wrong but maybe he's right. It seems that this adds another specific piece of circumstantial evidence. I don't want these to be stolen...I love rare coins...but I am pretty damn convinced they are.
Text
Can we just put Jack Trout to bed?
""This was someone's private coin, created by the mint manager or someone with access to the inner workings of the Old Granite Lady (San Francisco Mint)," Trout told the newspaper. "It was likely created in revenge for the assassination of Lincoln the previous year (April 14, 1865). I don't believe that coin ever left The Mint until the robbery. For it to show up as part of the treasure find links it directly to that inside job at the turn of the century at the San Francisco Mint." "
It is obvious that this man doesn't have a clue about certain well known facts regarding the 1866-S No Motto $20 pieces. Specifically:
Or perhaps:
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1203&lotNo=4266
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I thought the 'man & wife' said they found this hoard while out walking their dog in the Sierra foothills.
Where do the lies start and stop? Belvedere is no foothill community. I've had my share of gin & tonics at the bar at SFYC when I raced a Cal boat in the 70's from there.
The tale is getting leakier by the minute. >>
And where the hell is Belvedere coming from?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Well the news article on yahoo says The couple found it on their Tiburon property which is a city in Marin county right across the bridge from San Fransico! The Dimmick theft sounds more possible again to me. >>
Please provide that link since all the stories I have read or that have been linked puts "Kagin's" in Tiburoin and specifically state that the couple lives in the "Gold Country" with no specific location mentioned.
I swear, reading through this entire post has shown an incredible amount if distrust, jealousy, conspiracy, and just out and out baloney!
$1.5 million stolen and a week later $1.5 million found? Huh?
$30,000 stolen from the US Mint in 1901 and $27,000 found in 2013? Huh?
Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that.
The name is LEE!
Walter Dimmick was son of sarah yost and a Philo J. they were from deer park Il, where my dads family originated from , My dad's family moved to Jackson MI.
The problem is my dad has passed away over 20 years ago as well as my mom , so I cant get the exact geneology , but do know that my dad is related to Sara Yost (Dimmick) and Philo J. I think my dads father was a brother to Philo
When the article about the theft was published in the Numismatist back in 06, my parents as well as my dads older sisters and brothers were long since passed, so I was not able to show them or get more info. Also my older brother has passed as well. It would be interesting to know exactly the chain of family .
Back when the article came out in 2006 , (long before any word or knowledge of this find) several people commented to me how much Walter Dimmick resembled me in looks in the first pic, the picture of him in the san Quentin outfit , could literally be my older brother (brothers not in jail, just a lot of resemblance to my brother in that pic)
In the article , it mentioned that walter had moved to California, there are some dimmicks decended down from them as well over in that area as my brother had run into a few back in the late 70's early 80's when he was stationed there in the military.
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else.
Sign up on Amazon for Saddle Ridge Coin Info
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
Yes. Currently they belong to the couple that found them. And soon, they'll belong to other people.
Where did they come from? Simple. Someone buried them and then passed away. That "someone" is unknown. There were lots and lots of folks (there still are) that mined gold in the Gold Country Area. There are also more folks that simply DO NOT trust banks in any way shape or form. This is nothing new but I think that the number of folks that have actually buried their nest eggs in lieu of putting them in the bank, via account of SDB, would surprise a lot people.
As stated earlier, I don't think that Kagin nor his or the couples attorney's are idiots and they most certainly have explored all the different scenario's that have been portrayed on this thread and the countless unsubstantiated news stories. As such, I believe that the hoard has been truthfully vetted despite the efforts of those who simply do not have clue.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>Looking at the condition of many of these coins tells me a story. As this group was accumulated it sat undisturbed.
….. >>
This 1850 Philly $20 hardly looks pristine.
1850 Philly Mint - VF35
MacCrimmon - Thanks for posting the photo of that $20 1850 from the Saddle Ridge Hoard as now up on the PCGS data base. From the early publicity it remained a mystery as to whether there was a $20 Double Liberty from 1850, the first year of that denomination's release to the public (prior to the San Francisco Mint's inception.) Were there any other
1850 Double Liberties included in the Saddle Ridge Hoard?
I guess that despite the known population of 1850s having increased, at least by one, that mine still has a claim to being the most "unique" not only for its appearance, but also for its provenance having once been in the collection of its designer, Longacre (per the research and reporting by firstmint - opining that the Longacre connection is even more
significant than the provenance noted on the holder.) Here is the obverse view that some likely recall from my prior posting several years ago, along with a more recent added view of the reverse: (Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection.)
Click link below if interested in the earlier thread that includes the post from firstmint as to the Longacre connection:
Click and then Scroll down for firstmint's Post Re: the coin's designer, Longacre, having preserved this $20 1850 >>
EDITED TO ADD excerpt from first mint's post:
Here is an excerpt from firstmint's post:
"IMO, the coin is a first strike from the regular production dies, that happened to get saved and ended up in numismatic channels.
That would be the real story behind this nice coin.
Edited to add the rest of the story -
After doing some quick research and looking for an answer to the reason for such a coin being saved, I uncovered the original appearance for this particular coin.
It came from the James B. Longacre estate (the coin's designer), and was sold in the January 21, 1870 auction sale conducted by
M(oses) Thomas & Sons in Philadelphia. It was lot #178.
The lot description was: "1850, Double Eagle, proof. This piece was from the first dies used for the double eagle, and might be termed a trial piece." "
Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? Hopefully this isn't going to be the cue for pricing of the other Saddle Ridge Hoard coins when they get listed for sale either on Kagins' site or on Amazon. If I recall correctly the
premium for the Jonathan and Central America provenanced $20 Type One Double Eagles did not exceed one and a half times the coins otherwise numismatic value. >>
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Thanks to Bajjerfan, over on the other thread (the "Easy Come. Easy Go" thread, p. 3), a side-by-side comparison has also been made with the NGC No Motto MS-62 1866-S that recently sold at auction for something over $200,000.00 and the PCGS No Motto MS-62 1866-S found in the Saddle Ridge Hoard and for which all the media outlets are saying it is
estimated to be a one million dollar coin. While an argument can be made that there is currently a market acceptance premium for PCGS over NGC, but really, a five times jump? ….. >>
Repeated here!
NGC coin
PCGS coin
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me.
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009.
<< <i>Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of how remote.
Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
Only the rightful owner has clear title to property that was stolen. It doesn't matter how many times the stolen property changes hands, it will always belong to the rightful owner as none of the people buying/selling had title to do so. Their recourse is with the person who sold it to them.
If an insurance company paid a claim on the stolen property, the stolen property belongs to the insurance company.
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
Look I told you 100 times already, a shiny semi transparent old guy showed up the night my Coin was delivered and he just
took it. Oh and he smelled like sulfer. So if you want the Coin back, go talk to him. Yeah he left on an old burro. Well yes that
burro was semi transparent also.
Ghost of an old 49'er? You tell me.
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
May I assume that you are asking a hypothetical question, since these coins are not stolen property???
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Personally, I plan on purchasing one of these coins since out of all that I've read, absolutely nothing makes any sense at all other than, a couple found an old hoard of coins, quite by accident, on their California property.
Kagin isn't an idiot and I expect that neither are his attorney or the couples attorney. I also don't expect that the US Mint representative is an idiot either although sometimes I have to wonder given the latest coin designs and ideas emanating from that organization.
I feel comfortable that this was simply a wonderful find for one lucky couple and will leave it at that. >>
There is no question that coins were found. The question is were did they come from. They did belong to someone who was not intending to give them away. Despite the time that has past, the coins still belong to the original owner. Kagin and the couple have a pretty big vested interest in NOT finding out who's coins these are.
I think everyone here hopes they are sold. It's an incredibly cool story, but in the end the coins do belong to someone else. >>
If they ever post Coins and prices anf if I decide to buy one then one of the Coins will belong to me. >>
Anyone know how far the chain of custody extends for "stolen goods?" Isn't it like getting a counterfeit dollar where the last one in line loses unless he has some recourse to someone else in the chain of custody? Kagins and Amazon could likely get insurance to allow them to offer the coins with a guaranteed buy back in such an eventuality, regardless of
how remote. Will be interesting to learn if such accompanies the offered coins as part of a marketing package which may also include a book and special packaging [each coin in its own replica rusted can?] just like the U.S. Mint did to justify the premium on the UHRs back in 2009. >>
May I assume that you are asking a hypothetical question, since these coins are not stolen property??? >>
Stolen or lost doesn't matter. If someone can prove rightful ownership, they can claim the coins I would imagine. I would think that part of the due diligence would be to investigate all previous owners of the property and determine the likelihood that any of them could have the means to acquire and hide them and to be as certain as possible that nobody will be able to claim ownership. If a non owner of the property hid them, they are pretty much lost and forgotten.
Jack Trout
<< <i>Newest Forum Member is:
Jack Trout >>
Welcome aboard, Mr. Trout!
<< <i>Newest Forum Member is:
Jack Trout >>
Yes, he and I talked on the phone today about the gold coin hoard and other things. He's a professional fly fisherman, but also a coin collector. He's a very nice guy, and from what I understand, the press did not properly quote him. I won't attempt to explain, since Jack is obviously knows more about what happened than anyone in the world. He said that he even got a death threat because of this whole debacle.
I invited him to this forum to discuss the Saddle Ridge hoard, and also because he could benefit from the coin community we have here. Welcome aboard, Jack!
<< <i>Newest Forum Member is:
Jack Trout >>
Is that another variety of Jack Mackeral ?
Jack Trout sounds a little upscale.
<< <i>
<< <i>Newest Forum Member is:
Jack Trout >>
Is that another variety of Jack Mackeral ?
Jack Trout sounds a little upscale. >>
...when I was growing up my pops took me fishing a couple times at Flaming Gorge in Wyoming...we would yank out monster 25-30 pound Mackerel to which the locals referred to as "lake trout." They were way too oily to eat but they look good above the fire place
Erik
If you want to get Mr. Trout's attention, you should use one of these:
Preferably with a very long tippet and a bamboo rod.
OINK
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Jack Trout >>
Is that another variety of Jack Mackeral ?
Jack Trout sounds a little upscale. >>
...when I was growing up my pops took me fishing a couple times at Flaming Gorge in Wyoming...we would yank out monster 25-30 pound Mackerel to which the locals referred to as "lake trout." They were way too oily to eat but they look good above the fire place
Erik >>
Ever try it in a fish boil to get rid of the oil?