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Legend: Hot Topics Jan 4, 2014

bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
Check out the new hot topics post here.
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  • PatchesPatches Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Check out the new hot topics post here. >>



    Her Stella Thread Topic
  • PreTurbPreTurb Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭
    Wow... I haven't heard that much name-calling since 3rd grade! Mispelers untie!
  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭✭
    Integrity should be the foremost attribute of every dealer and collector.
  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭
    Last bought from Legend about 8 years ago. Super nice coins, but the rants got old.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good read as behaving morally in an ethical manner is not only the right thing to do but also enables you to sleep well at night image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, the rants are old---and they're still valid.
    About five years ago, a local coin dealer ruefully told me that there is a good reason why the public rates coin dealers right up (down, actually) there with used car salesmen.
    I sometimes wonder whether the number of coin collectors would be much greater if it weren't for issues that involve some form of misrepresentation on the part of the sellers.
    Unfortunately, I don't see any compelling way out of this mess, because of the money involved. And ethical conundrums don't always involve dealers---I have met plenty of
    collectors who would happily check their ethical standards at the door when it comes time to sell.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    Here are the PNG Code of ethics. While I freely admit in an ideal world we could have facilitated getting the coin dipped and the coin would live out its life in a problem holder. Its pretty obvious that is not reality. Attached is the PNG code of ethics. The only item referring to doctored coins is #7 which in fact I did help write. Selling a coin with full disclosure is allowed though for the sake of consumer protection, I would not sell a coin or many other problem coins retail. In fact high value coins in problem holders I see wholesale because for my customers they are not good enough but there is a home for every coin. Selling a doctored coin with full disclosure does not in any way violate the rules as Laura's rant indicates. In fact the only violation of the code of ethics is #14 "To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." Of course she does not have to worry about following the rule as she is not a member.

    PNG Code of Ethics
    The Professional Numismatists Guild's Standard of ExcellencePNG white

    Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
    1.
    To furnish sound advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.
    2.
    To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed between myself and my customer.
    3.
    To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer.
    4.
    To refrain from misrepresenting the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors.
    5.
    To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate.
    6.
    To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items.
    7.
    To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
    8.
    To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards).
    9.
    To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
    (a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;
    (b) using high pressure sales techniques;
    (c) using misleading performance data;
    (d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;
    (e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;
    (f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;
    (g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.
    (h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;
    (i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency.
    10.
    To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items.
    11.
    To respect my contracts with all parties to numismatic transactions, whether written or oral.
    12.
    To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.
    13.
    To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so.
    14.
    To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
    15.
    To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request.
    16.
    To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party.
    17.
    If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board.
    Binding Effect
    This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
    Conduct Prejudicial to PNG
    Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these Bylaws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law.
  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>(b) using high pressure sales techniques; >>



    At least one guy should be bounced from the PNG ranks immediately.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To furnish sound advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.

    Did you at any point let the customer you bought the coin from know there was a possibility that they could get full PCGS listed value for the coin by sending it to PCGS for review?
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    Telling them PCGS would give more money would be misrepresenting it because that is false
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Telling them PCGS would give more money would be misrepresenting it because that is false >>



    oh? So in no situation whatsoever PCGS would agree that it's a bad coin and buy it to take it off the market? That flies in the face of multiple examples cited on this chatroom.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>DID WE WIN ANY WARS IN 2013?

    Sadly NO! While I thought we were making progress with coin doctors, we only slowed them temporarily. >>



    It's definitely a disturbing part of the hobby.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like the top tier TPGS, CAC gets it right most of the time. CAC offers an opinion with respect to the quality of of a coin for its assigned grade. People make mistakes. If you are considering purchasing a coin, you should be able to figure out on your own whether or not it is high end for the grade. If you want an insurance policy, have someone you trust give you a second opinion on the coin (I always do this).

    If you are not comfortable grading a coin yourself, and / or cannot rely on someone who knows more than you do to evaluate a particular coin, and you buy it anyway, you are buying the holder or a sticker; you are not buying the coin.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    $80,000. That's PCGS price guide on an AU50. The possibility at least exists that PCGS would stand up for a collector who owns a bad coin by buying it back at price guide value. But no one gave that collector good advice ... perhaps because there was no profit in it? HOW MUCH DID THE COLLECTOR POTENTIALLY LOSE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET THE FULL STORY?

    So yes, it would seem that ethics rules may have been violated.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good report....I like Laura and enjoy her rants... Cheers, RickO
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Telling them PCGS would give more money would be misrepresenting it because that is false >>



    Are you really stating as a fact on the PCGS chatroom that the PCGS guaranty is worthless to a collector? image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Way back in 1986, I bought a large cent in a PR64 holder....didn't look like much of a proof but what did I know. A year later I was trying to sell it and nobody would buy it as a proof. One dealer sent it in to PCGS for me...and I received a phone call from David Hall himself. He paid me a very fair price to take the coin off the market. I doubt David remembers this but I have never forgotten it.

    So yes, PCGS steps up and makes it right for collectors.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    The guarantee is good however the value they place on the coin is always up for discussion. The value is not the price guide value. In the cases we have sent them coins the value was never as high as their price guide value. Over the last several years we have submitted numerous coins for buyback on behalf of customers with mixed results.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Such restraint. She waited until the third paragraph to work the self-serving CAC advert into the post...

    image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The guarantee is good however the value they place on the coin is always up for discussion. The value is not the price guide value. In the cases we have sent them coins the value was never as high as their price guide value. Over the last several years we have submitted numerous coins for buyback on behalf of customers with mixed results. >>



    Ok so what was the logic behind not doing so in this case?
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    The customer needed money by the middle of January. He recognized the issues with the coin when we pointed them out. We provided the opportunity to send the coin for guarentee but he didn't want to deal with it. We could not guarantee a check in 3 weeks. We offered a memo deal with no guarantees at a level that he was happy with.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This punk who originated this thread was just bragging how he thinks he is upcoming talent. Really? >>



    image I do recall the thread where dealer of mention did self nominate himself.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP >>


    Implication: Any detail not included in the initial account is false.

    Hmmm...
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP >>


    Implication: Any detail not included in the initial account is false.

    Hmmm... >>



    That's not it. In fact, the OP in his various follow up comments never once said that they considered PCGS at the beginning but dismissed it because of such and such reason.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Last bought from Legend about 8 years ago. Super nice coins, but the rants got old. >>



    They may be old, but they all hit the spot.IMO

    Edited to add a forgotten word. MAY
  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Integrity should be the foremost attribute of every dealer and collector. >>



    +1
  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Last bought from Legend about 8 years ago. Super nice coins, but the rants got old. >>



    They be old, but they all hit the spot.IMO >>



    I thought the early wannabe dealer rants were self serving and wrong.
  • DonWillisDonWillis Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
    Right on Laura! Don't ever give up.


  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Last bought from Legend about 8 years ago. Super nice coins, but the rants got old. >>



    They be old, but they all hit the spot.IMO >>



    I thought the early wannabe dealer rants were self serving and wrong. >>



    Certainly something I never said.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP >>


    Implication: Any detail not included in the initial account is false.

    Hmmm... >>



    That's not it. In fact, the OP in his various follow up comments never once said that they considered PCGS at the beginning but dismissed it because of such and such reason.

    EVP >>


    My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. It wasn't the dealer's decision to make. I will now leave you in peace to further prosecute your
    witch hunt.
  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Right on Laura! Don't ever give up. >>



    Question, Don? If a PCGS MS64 coin comes in for an upgrade and in fact turns out to be an MS63, does PCGS reholder at the lower grade or keep it at the MS64 grade and return it to the submitter?
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We MUST still keep the pressure up. Most retail dealers are just too lazy or greedy to care. As I have said before, ask why they do not have the majority of their coins w/CAC beans (we just saw one brag they put up 60 NEWPS-only 2 were CAC). I know too many genuises may disagree with some of CAC's grading (because the dealers making negative comments can't grade) but JA and his team are spot on at finding and rejecting doctored coins. Its a tool-a tool that really works, why not use it? I know of only ONE other retail dealer (besides Legend) who is that good who I'd buy non CAC coins from (we're talking Legend calibre coins).

    I found this sort of disturbing. It insinuates that if you don't have essentially a 100% CAC inventory that something is wrong with you. Is this where we are now? What does this have to do with doctoring? What it does have 100% to do with are dealers making the choice to go with 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% CAC coins in their inventory. The logical answer to me why someone has essentially a 100% CAC inventory is that they bought the majority of them that way. Most of the coins CAC rejects are probably just low end for the grade and NOT doctored. Why shouldn't collectors and dealers use the sticker as a way to avoid doctored coins? Then what happens to the 60% of the coin market that isn't stickerable, and isn't doctored? Never mind that. What happens to the health of the "coin market" if such logic eventually takes hold in much larger size?

    Most dealers are skilled enough to choose decent coins that aren't yet stickered, thus avoiding the price premium....at least those dealing in coins averaging $1,000 and up. And the majority of collectors aren't yet clamoring for 100% CAC coins in their collections. The far less plentiful investor types are another story though. There still aren't enough stickered coins in the market place to make a dent in the total supply of coins. This would have been like asking in 1989-1990 why most coin auctions were still nearly all raw (ie there weren't enough slabs out there yet in major collections ).... TPG's were only 3-4 years old.

    I've never expected a lot out of PNG. I realize they aren't in business to make me money. But, one time back in 1998 they did help me get my money back from a member to be. I asked one of my mentors in 1988 (a PNG
    dealer) why some of the biggest sheisters of the 1971-1986 period were allowed to be PNG dealers. Isn't that defeating the very purpose of PNG? His answer was that the PNG felt they could do more to control those guys from the inside rather from the outside. His words, not mine.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP >>


    Implication: Any detail not included in the initial account is false.

    Hmmm... >>



    That's not it. In fact, the OP in his various follow up comments never once said that they considered PCGS at the beginning but dismissed it because of such and such reason.

    EVP >>


    My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. It wasn't the dealer's decision to make. I will now leave you in peace to further prosecute your
    witch hunt. >>



    If you're not going to bother to support your assertion, then I certainly won't do so for you.

    Implication: you pout when people express opinions contrary to yours.

    See, two can play this game...

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I found this sort of disturbing. It insinuates that if you don't have essentially a 100% CAC inventory that something is wrong with you. >>



    Suppose we could just melt the non CAC coins.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I don't accept anything said by the OP of the Stella thread to excuse not sending the coin to PCGS because he never mentioned PCGS as an option until he was called out on it. Then his story becomes damage control.

    Hmmm...

    EVP >>


    Implication: Any detail not included in the initial account is false.

    Hmmm... >>



    That's not it. In fact, the OP in his various follow up comments never once said that they considered PCGS at the beginning but dismissed it because of such and such reason.

    EVP >>


    My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. It wasn't the dealer's decision to make. I will now leave you in peace to further prosecute your
    witch hunt. >>



    If you're not going to bother to support your assertion, then I certainly won't do so for you.

    Implication: you pout when people express opinions contrary to yours.

    See, two can play this game... >>


    If you're not going to bother to contradict my assertion, I care even less about your argument than
    I already did. Moi pouting about your spouting? That's image
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coin Junkie - so much for leaving me in peace... I knew you were an easy bait. image

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Coin Junkie - so much for leaving me in peace... I knew you were an easy bait. image >>


    True. I chose to leave you in pieces, instead..........
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Coin Junkie - so much for leaving me in peace... I knew you were an easy bait. image >>


    True. I chose to leave you in pieces, instead.......... >>



    You're not much of a debater, but at least you have a sense of humor. Didn't care much for that stupid movie, but I do like your avatar.

    Thanks for bringing a smile to my face.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>


    Yep, that's it. I had thought it was in the original thread, but what does that matter materially to the discussion?
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>



    Don't mind him; he makes things up and then goes extreme when he finds that someone dares not to agree with him.

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Coin Junkie - so much for leaving me in peace... I knew you were an easy bait. image >>


    True. I chose to leave you in pieces, instead.......... >>



    You're not much of a debater, but at least you have a sense of humor. Didn't care much for that stupid movie, but I do like your avatar.

    Thanks for bringing a smile to my face.

    EVP >>


    EVP, I'm actually an excellent debater (and quite humble, as well). You weren't giving me much grist... image

    Seriously, I don't take forum life too seriously and I hope you don't either. This place would get
    fairly boring without spirited discussion, and I try to do my part.

    Cheers.
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>


    Yep, that's it. I had thought it was in the original thread, but what does that matter materially to the discussion? >>



    Follow the logic, if you are able...

    The assertion is that the OP of the Stella thread dismissed using PCGS buyback as an option because of credible concerns. But, the counter-assertion is that the OP never even raised the matter of PCGS until he started to defend himself.

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>


    Yep, that's it. I had thought it was in the original thread, but what does that matter materially to the discussion? >>



    wow
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>


    Yep, that's it. I had thought it was in the original thread, but what does that matter materially to the discussion? >>



    wow >>



    TDN - don't you know that you need to be more grist-ful to challenge CoinJunkie?

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>My recollection is that the OP stated the customer needed money in a time frame that precluded sending the
    coin to PCGS. >>



    Recollection from where? Nowhere is that stated until this very page of thread. >>


    Yep, that's it. I had thought it was in the original thread, but what does that matter materially to the discussion? >>



    wow >>


    Speaking of stellar debating skills... this is how it's done, kids!

    image

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