When is lowball not quite low enough?

RYK

I was looking at a dealer's website and saw a coin in AG-3 advertised as a lowball and offered at MS-62/3 money. At some point, for every coin and series, the lowball is not worth a premium and is silly when compared to higher grade examples. No?

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

<< <i>I was looking at a dealer's website and saw a coin in AG-3 advertised as a lowball and offered at MS-62/3 money. At some point, for every coin and series, the lowball is not worth a premium and is silly when compared to higher grade examples. No? >>



I guess if someone eats enough acid they could look at a blank planchet and see a beautiful coin and then ask moon money for it before their trip is over…eventually the trip will be over though

Erik

Nickcap

Some of the lowball collectors will pay a small premium for a coin to complete their set.

Each person collects what they like. Not everyone is concerned with selling either.

Also, if the year and mint didn't circulate much. Finding a Registry quality coin in a low grade is next to impossible. See 1885-CC Morgan. The price of a well circulated coin is the same as a ms60 - 61.

keyman64

That is NOT a game for me. If the registry sets went *poof* tomorrow, any perceived value in those things would go *poof* along with them. That game just doesn't make any sense to me. To each their own though. If it brings a person joy or happiness then so be it and I certainly would not be one to try and take that away from them.

Sonorandesertrat

There is no accounting for taste. The registry phenomenon has attracted lots of lemmings, who seem to be obsessed with grades on plastic rather than the coins themselves.
Of course, there are Forum members who think that my numislit purchases are nuts.

À chacun son goût.

ambro51

AG3 Clad Roosevelt Dime in a Graded PCGS Slab...... Priceless Sometimes Lowball is an anomaly and quite interesting.

LotsoLuck

I collected slugs when I was a kid since that was all I could afford, should of held on to them

DennisH

You'd be doing very well to only pay MS63 money for an 1881-CC, 1885-CC, 1899-P or 1903-O Morgan in PCGS Poor-01.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>You'd be doing very well to only pay MS63 money for an 1881-CC, 1885-CC, 1899-P or 1903-O Morgan in PCGS Poor-01. >>



Thith man speaketh with wise tongue!

Colorfulcoins

As someone that ACTUALLY has a PCGS slabbed AG3 silver roosevelt dime........I can tell you that unlike Morgan Dollars and Peace Dollars which you can find in low low grades, some coins like Rosy dimes are seldom seen. In fact, I think my AG3 is really over-graded and should be a FR2 but I doubt the graders have ever seen a Roosevelt dime that worn...seriously. Would I pay MS62/3 money for an AG3 .......... which would only be about $10

CoinJunkie

<< <i>As someone that ACTUALLY has a PCGS slabbed AG3 silver roosevelt dime........I can tell you that unlike Morgan Dollars and Peace Dollars which you can find in low low grades, some coins like Rosy dimes are seldom seen. In fact, I think my AG3 is really over-graded and should be a FR2 but I doubt the graders have ever seen a Roosevelt dime that worn...seriously. Would I pay MS62/3 money for an AG3 .......... which would only be about $10 >>


Wow, that's quite a rare thing, Craig! I just checked the pop report for silver Roosies.
The lowest column even displayed is VG, but it shows no examples. There is but a single
coin graded F (1950-S). By contrast, there are 43,765 coins graded MS66 across the
series.

It would be pretty cool (and rather challenging, especially of a single date) to construct
a full grading set. I wonder if PCGS even has one?

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

To me, it's like a haircut...you can always cut more off but you can never add more on. Basically, you can take a ms70 coin and play with it for however long it takes to get it to p01, but every time it drops a grade you can never recover it back. I respect anyone whom pursues their passion whatever it may be, so to each his own as said above, regardless of how silly "lowball" collecting may sound to me.

Erik

itsnotjustme

Supply & demand could drive this on coins which do not commonly occur at very low grades, like anything post 1964.

291fifth

Sounds like another "one-way" market to me.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Sounds like another "one-way" market to me. >>


it reads more like a dealer likes or knows his item a bit more than one of "THE FEW" who would be willing to buy it at a reasonable price because
That part of the equation is missing. (why would anyone want a lowball coin ? )
But I would guess one of the "few" does like it enough to start a thread about it. Everything is negotiable online… not to mention : fun to analyze.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>To me, it's like a haircut...you can always cut more off but you can never add more on. Basically, you can take a ms70 coin and play with it for however long it takes to get it to p01, but every time it drops a grade you can never recover it back. I respect anyone whom pursues their passion whatever it may be, so to each his own as said above, regardless of how silly "lowball" collecting may sound to me.

Erik >>



At least hair grows back. Of course with most modern stuff [esp. that which circulates or was circulated] there is no need to start with a 70 coin. Lowball makes more sense if you actually collect those coins that saw heavy use like Morgans. Some like those mentioned above were released in small quantities so getting one of those that has naturally worn out" is rather tough. I see no point in trying for a set of P01 ASEs.

BillJones

I really don't understand this "worst known" concept. My attitude is if I can't afford a decent example of a certain coin, token or medal, I can do without out it. I'm not a grade snob. Circulated coins are okay with me if they are attractive, but I don't collect extremely low grade junk like pieces in Fair-02 or Poor-01. Paying Unc. money for such stuff is lunacy in my opinion.

ambro51

It's "fun". Remember 'fun'? Bill?

BillJones

<< <i>It's "fun". Remember 'fun'? Bill? >>



It is not "fun" when you are paying Mint State prices for coins in Fair-02 or Poor-01. It's just demented.

BAJJERFAN

I think the attraction is more the challenge of doing it rather than the practicality of doing it. It makes no sense to me to wear down perfectly good coins to get a heavily worn example. With a series like the Morgans, some are going to be harder to get than others are. Those few that are available will command high prices just like the top end ones do.

Also, the only defect you'd like to see is wear which would probably exclude coins with dings, scratches, scrapes, gashes, grafitti or other obvious signs of damage.

291fifth

<< <i>

<< <i>It's "fun". Remember 'fun'? Bill? >>



It is not "fun" when you are paying Mint State prices for coins in Fair-02 or Poor-01. It's just demented. >>

ambro51

It's all about series and age. A PO01 liberty nickel is no trick. They circulated insanely in a mechanical environment and have recessed dates and no mintmark. Same with Walkers and old copper. I agree with you Bill 100% it's insane etc but when you put this grade on a Roosevelt dime, Jeff nickel, Kennedy half, anything clad, a classic era commem you Truly do have a rare "grading state" of the coin. An opposite end outlier such as a MS70 Jeff at one end and a PO01 at the other. Both, in their own way, Unobtainable and if found would be newsworthy (to us coin geeks anyway)

ricko

Collecting is a strange, human, phenomena..... As I have mentioned before, some people collect string, some collect belly button lint..... no explanations..Cheers, RickO

Cougar1978

Sorry don't quite understand - an AG3 and he is asking 62 -63 money?

Just who is getting "lowballed" - certainly not him.

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>

<< <i>It's "fun". Remember 'fun'? Bill? >>



It is not "fun" when you are paying Mint State prices for coins in Fair-02 or Poor-01. It's just demented. >>

Overdate

<< <i>It is not "fun" when you are paying Mint State prices for coins in Fair-02 or Poor-01. It's just demented. >>


Why can't it be both?

Davideo

One could also argue it is demented to pay 2x+ for an MS67 instead of a nice MS66.

It seems most in the coin collecting community just say: collect what you like, have fun. But there definitely are factions that turn their nose at folks who may collect lowballs, or moderns, or whatever. Collectors in general can be an odd lot and so can their collecting choices. Collecting is a very personal thing and others choices may seem strange to us, but our choices may seem strange to others. Why do you want old dirt in the crevices of your gold coins? Why would you want a bright shiny coin over a toned one? Or vice versa? Why do you care about Morgan variations that require a microscope to see? To each their own.

From my limited experience, the vast majority of lowball collectors, at least start by just finding stuff in bargain bins, ebay, etc. and is more the thrill of the hunt. It may progress to paying serious money for lowballs, but not always. It is becoming more popular so some areas do have prices going up, but they are still very thinly traded. Also, a seller can ask whatever price they want.

ajaan

Not all lowball collectors play the Registry game. I like my lowball coins naked. The hunt is the fun. The coins I collect do not have to have a date, in fact I prefer they don't have dates, but I do like the coin to be as problem free as possible. That is, no holes, large scratches, big rim dings, etc. Here is my collection so far. I'm always looking to add to it.

Davideo

Thanks for sharing ajaan! I'd love to more detailed pics of the Franklin.

I do limit myself to identifiable by date/mm, but don't do the registry either.

ajaan

Here's an image of the Franklin. Nothing special, probably could use an acetone dip to get rid of the tape residue.

MsMorrisine

To everyone and everything, a price.

But this philosophical pricing question can include toners....


If people are willing to fight....

Then I'll be watching from the sidelines.

Steve123

Does anyone know the website this topic is referring to?

Thank you.

Steve

pocketpiececommems

I collect lowball commems both silver and gold. Are they hard to find. Yes. It took me 10 years to complete my 50 piece set. I need a 1904 L&C to finish the gold set. I was was working on this set before I knew anything about a registry set. It just made it more interesting for me.

I also collect holed silver and gold commems. Am I crazy. That depends on who's calling who crazy. There are all kinds of ways to collect coins. And if you are having fun at it then it's worth it.

keets

when you put this grade on a Roosevelt dime, Jeff nickel, Kennedy half, anything clad, a classic era commem you Truly do have a rare "grading state" of the coin.

take a deep breath and think about what you wrote.

many Classic collectors and even a large number of Modern collectors bemoan the prices paid for high grade Modern issues or difficult "designation" issues like Full Steps, the wail being that there are millions out there. in the scenario outlined above there REALLY are millions of PO1's, FA2's and AG3's out there just waiting to be made. can't you just see it, pocket piece mania will drive the lowball market, it's the next collecting frenzy.

Bill is right on this one but collect what you like anyway.

Colorfulcoins

The FUN of lowball is NOT paying MS62/3 money but finding a suitable coin in a dealers junk box for $1-10 bucks and recognizing that "a keeper". Someone likely found that AG3 in such a box and paid $30 to get it slab and now wants to make some moon money!

kaz

"now" being 8+ years ago. Wonder if it's still in the dealer's inventory, LOL?

Zoins

@RYK said:
When is lowball not quite low enough?
I was looking at a dealer's website and saw a coin in AG-3 advertised as a lowball and offered at MS-62/3 money. At some point, for every coin and series, the lowball is not worth a premium and is silly when compared to higher grade examples. No?

It depends on the coin. If the MS coin is worth 4 or 5 figures then probably not, but if the MS coin is worth $50 or less, then definitely yes. For example, one of more commonly discussed low ball coins on the forums is the clad Ike, where MS63 coins are generally under $20 and low balls could sell in the hundreds.

Zoins

@ambro51 said:
Sometimes Lowball is an anomaly and quite interesting.

I agree 100%

I like the detail on your reverse!

Here's mine, from the Bill Fivaz collection.

Zoins

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@RYK said:
I was looking at a dealer's website and saw a coin in AG-3 advertised as a lowball and offered at MS-62/3 money. At some point, for every coin and series, the lowball is not worth a premium and is silly when compared to higher grade examples. No?

I guess if someone eats enough acid they could look at a blank planchet and see a beautiful coin and then ask moon money for it before their trip is over…eventually the trip will be over though

Erik

Some people really value blank planchets as well!

PerryHall

Problem free low-ball gold coins with original surfaces in PCGS or NGC slabs are neat to look at and to contemplate their travels. Also, they are relatively rare. They won't appeal to many coin investors since it's more of a collector thing.

Zoins

@PerryHall said:
Problem free low-ball gold coins with original surfaces in PCGS or NGC slabs are neat to look at and to contemplate their travels. Also, they are relatively rare. They won't appeal to many coin investors since it's more of a collector thing.

Looking through a lot of these in a Registry Set is amazing. I once looked at a gold low ball Registry Set with I want to say 50-100 coins, many from the 1800s.

mr1931S

Is there a way to determine if the coin has,in fact, travelled and not tumbled?

PerryHall

@mr1874 said:
Is there a way to determine if the coin has,in fact, travelled and not tumbled?

It's virtually impossible to duplicate natural wear and original color on a coin. A tumbled coin would be details graded with a "CLEANED" designation.

Zoins

@mr1874 said:
Is there a way to determine if the coin has,in fact, travelled and not tumbled?

Tumbling results in high wear on the rims which TPGs use to details grade coins.

What do you mean when you say travelled?

RYK

An AG-3 grade is problematic. It can never be the “worst known” (really “worst slabbed”) because someone with money and patience will make a Fr-2 or Po-1.

I have no recollection what the coin was when I posted this years ago, but the context of the coin probably matters a lot. If it is a coin that is widely available in AG-3, like a common date Barber dime, it is ridiculous. If it is a clad (or, gasp, silver) Ike dollar, the AG-3 probably does warrant a premium over the MS-62/63, which are common and uninteresting to most.

Cougar1978

The industry has various angles. There is the lowball hobby, sticker craze, holder game, toner casino, and numerous others. Many of these come and go to be replaced by something else.

Sellers like a pro racer are going to work their angle as their custom engineered racing vehicle / course permit.

It’s the high buyer who defines the apex. I am no lowballer and certainly no expert on that however sellers are going to enter the game to give them what they want.

I gave up long time ago (sanity reasons) why some spend on certain stuff like they do - it’s their hobby their money.

vulcanize

My CAC-ed 1916 SLQ graded by PCGS as PO-01 is very special to me because it was one of those purchases that had to be waited out patiently since it was picked up after a lot of back and forth with the seller.
It got listed multiple times and still there were no buyers, so finally the price got reduced and I was the only bidder in the auction to pick up the same (sort of similar story happened with the acquisition of my AG-3 graded 1893-S Morgan as well).
The pricing on these CAC-ed 1916 SLQ's seem to be going up exponentially and currently there is one from Apmex on eBay at $2,401.07.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144371472457?hash=item219d35d849:g:3DMAAOSwnwth4hUm

Catbert

To answer the OP’s question from years ago…..when the coin has a CAC sticker.

RYK

@vulcanize said:
My CAC-ed 1916 SLQ graded by PCGS as PO-01 is very special to me because it was one of those purchases that had to be waited out patiently since it was picked up after a lot of back and forth with the seller.
It got listed multiple times and still there were no buyers, so finally the price got reduced and I was the only bidder in the auction to pick up the same (sort of similar story happened with the acquisition of my AG-3 graded 1893-S Morgan as well).
The pricing on these CAC-ed 1916 SLQ's seem to be going up exponentially and currently there is one from Apmex on eBay at $2,401.07.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144371472457?hash=item219d35d849:g:3DMAAOSwnwth4hUm

Not sure if that is what I was referring to in the OP...unless the PO-1 sells for more than the XF-40 (or even the AG-03). I doubt that it does.

fathom

The PO1 thing is a trendy play.

Aesthetics and eye appeal always win out long term