Options
A Simple Study on the Frequency of the Center Mintmark Position for 1897-S Barber Quarters
TomB
Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
In 2010 I wrote a thread on the PCGS boards about the excitement of finding a raw, completely original, mid-grade 1897-S Barber quarter on ebay. Not only did the coin possess unmitigated originality, but it was also produced with the center mintmark position on the reverse die. The images of the coin were fairly decent and made the coin look to have original or nearly original surfaces, but the images were too small to see much detail. I saved the images and blew them up only to see that the distortion from image manipulation was tremendous, but my familiarity with the series led me to believe that the coin retained overall VF20 or so details. An 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 is darn scarce, one in VF20 with more or less original surfaces is a coin few of us will ever see in-hand; but an 1897-S Barber quarter in VF20 with more or less original surfaces and the very rare center mintmark location? Well, perhaps Sasquatch has a hoard of these, but I had never seen one...until the ebay auction.
The seller of the coin ran many coin auctions as consignments and was evidently unaware of the rare mintmark location for this issue and therefore never mentioned it in the listing. The coin was listed as a true auction and I had been bouncing off the walls all week in anticipation of the auction close. My wife had some friends over on the night that the auction closed and they asked what I was doing by the computer. I told them I was waiting to wildly overpay for this old, worn, dirty coin. The auction closed, my high bid was in the four figures and I won the piece for under $500. Again, I waited patiently for my newest find and it did not disappoint. In-hand I graded the coin VF20 and told a few forum members that I thought PCGS might grade the coin VF30. Eventually, the coin was submitted to PCGS and it received a grade of VF30.
The 1897-S Barber quarter is commonly overlooked by those who do not study the series as it inhabits a universe dominated by the "Big Three" issues of 1896-S, 1901-S and 1913-S. The 1901-S dwarfs all others for price and is indeed a mind-numbing $10,000 coin in VG8. A coin that I have always found tough as any to find in the Barber quarter series, in mid-grades, is the 1897-S and David Feigenbaum (aka David Lawrence) wrote in part about the 1897-S the following-
"My favorite date. Where have they all gone? This coin is only available in AG to VG condition. The moment a Fine or better specimen comes on the market-even with problems-it is sold."
He also wrote of this issue-
"Two far right mint mark positions were identified in the First Edition. A third, in the center, has since been found. I have only seen one high grade specimen (a cleaned AU) of this die (plate coin). An EF has been reported to me."
I realize those comments were written in 1994, but wow, this was a person who studied, dealt in and specialized in Barber coinage for over forty years by the time that analysis was put in print. For me, finding a more or less original 1897-S in mid-grade with center mintmark was always the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting. Of course, one must realize that “the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting” should not be equated in any way with a statement of market value. Following is an image of that center mintmark coin. Please note that the position of the mintmark is such that it sits fairly squarely in the void between the words “QUARTER DOLLAR”. This is in stark contrast to the extreme rightward position of the vast majority of 1897-S Barber quarters where the mintmark is directly above the D in “DOLLAR” and comes perilously close to the feathers on the arrows. The 1897 issues would be the last to feature an extreme rightward S-mintmark position.
Although David Feigenbaum had written that he had only seen a few center mintmark coins, the truth is that these pieces are out there; albeit they are typically very well worn or somehow damaged. I make no attempt to preferentially purchase low grade, center mintmark coins for my own collection and have not found a wide audience of buyers to purchase similarly low grade pieces at a premium to the typically encountered coin. The 1897-S Barber quarter is a fairly easy coin to find and purchase if one is looking for AG3 or G4 pieces and they are sometimes available in higher grades when they have surface issues. I don’t know the number of extant pieces, but David Feigenbaum estimated that the center mintmark position was at least one RR value scarcer than the extreme rightward position and the 2006 Barber Coin Collectors Society (BCCS) census indicates that this may have been a conservative estimation of scarcity.
I decided to do an extended yet simple survey of 1897-S Barber quarters to determine the frequency with which one might find this particular mintmark position. Parameters were chosen prior to the start of the analysis in an attempt to reduce selection bias and to increase overall accuracy. The parameters are as follows-
1) A pool of 200-coins would be analyzed or, in the event that 200-coins would take an extraordinary length of time to find, a time window of six-months would be used.
2) The only source of data points would be coins listed on ebay since ebay represents the full range of novice sellers, vest pocket dealers and full-time brick and mortar shops as well as boutique or high end dealers.
3) Another advantage of ebay over traditional auction houses is that most coins are sold without certification and low grade 1897-S Barber quarters are generally not targets of certification.
4) An image of each coin in the survey would be saved so that the same coin would not be counted multiple times in the survey.
5) Details grades would be assigned to each coin by viewing the image and those coins with higher details grades had notes attached to them regarding surface preservation.
6) The percentage of center mintmark coins would be determined as well as the average details grade.
This research was conducted from late 2010 through early 2011 over the entire six-month target period and a total of 231-coins were recorded. Results follow-
1) Center mintmark coins; 12 (5.2%)
2) Average details grade for center mintmark coins; between G4 and G6.
3) Only two of the 12 center mintmark coins had details grades higher than G6 with one of those being a bent VG8 and the other a polished and scratched EF40.
4) Ten of the 12 center mintmark coins had details grades below VG8, which is 83.3% of the coins examined.
5) Extreme rightward mintmark coins; 219 (94.8%)
6) Average details grade for extreme rightward mintmark coins; exactly G6.
7) There were 20 extreme rightward mintmark coins with details grades in the VF through EF range and of these only a single coin (a VF25) looked to be reasonably original.
8) 185 of the 219 extreme rightward mintmark coins had details grades below VG8, which is 84.5% of the coins examined.
A note of caution should be added to image interpretation. Not only can it be difficult to ascertain details grades for coins offered by myriad sellers using various lighting conditions and having wildly different levels of image presentation proficiency, but interpretation of surfaces is also mighty difficult. As an example, several of the mid-grade pieces were won at auction by myself, but were returned when in-hand inspection determined that they were polished, bent or somehow otherwise damaged.
Overall, I was surprised by two items in this survey. First, the percentage of center mintmark coins was 5.2%, which was on the low side of the 5-10% estimation that I had always used. Additionally, a higher percentage of mid-grade details extreme rightward mintmark coins were available than I had anticipated, but the general level of surface damage that these coins had suffered was considerable. There is one major shortfall that has not been addressed in this analysis and that is the tendency of collectors to withhold from the market (hoard) better date or more interesting issues. If we keep in mind that the center mintmark position is not widely know of or embraced by the broader hobby; that coins in the lower portion of the grade spectrum generate little, if any, premium regardless of mintmark position; and that there are relatively few original, problem-free, mid-grade coins for the issue (again regardless of mintmark position) then we can be relatively certain that collector hoarding of the issue does not play a major role in the percentage of apparent extant populations. This is especially true if we assume that collector hoarding is much less likely to occur in the lower end of the grade spectrum coupled with the long-term observation that the 1897-S Barber quarter is almost always found in this lower end of the grade spectrum. Lastly, the very good correlation of average details grade and percentage of coins with details grades below VG8 between both mintmark positions infers that they are collected under very similar rules and experience similar collecting pressures.
The seller of the coin ran many coin auctions as consignments and was evidently unaware of the rare mintmark location for this issue and therefore never mentioned it in the listing. The coin was listed as a true auction and I had been bouncing off the walls all week in anticipation of the auction close. My wife had some friends over on the night that the auction closed and they asked what I was doing by the computer. I told them I was waiting to wildly overpay for this old, worn, dirty coin. The auction closed, my high bid was in the four figures and I won the piece for under $500. Again, I waited patiently for my newest find and it did not disappoint. In-hand I graded the coin VF20 and told a few forum members that I thought PCGS might grade the coin VF30. Eventually, the coin was submitted to PCGS and it received a grade of VF30.
The 1897-S Barber quarter is commonly overlooked by those who do not study the series as it inhabits a universe dominated by the "Big Three" issues of 1896-S, 1901-S and 1913-S. The 1901-S dwarfs all others for price and is indeed a mind-numbing $10,000 coin in VG8. A coin that I have always found tough as any to find in the Barber quarter series, in mid-grades, is the 1897-S and David Feigenbaum (aka David Lawrence) wrote in part about the 1897-S the following-
"My favorite date. Where have they all gone? This coin is only available in AG to VG condition. The moment a Fine or better specimen comes on the market-even with problems-it is sold."
He also wrote of this issue-
"Two far right mint mark positions were identified in the First Edition. A third, in the center, has since been found. I have only seen one high grade specimen (a cleaned AU) of this die (plate coin). An EF has been reported to me."
I realize those comments were written in 1994, but wow, this was a person who studied, dealt in and specialized in Barber coinage for over forty years by the time that analysis was put in print. For me, finding a more or less original 1897-S in mid-grade with center mintmark was always the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting. Of course, one must realize that “the pinnacle of Barber quarter collecting” should not be equated in any way with a statement of market value. Following is an image of that center mintmark coin. Please note that the position of the mintmark is such that it sits fairly squarely in the void between the words “QUARTER DOLLAR”. This is in stark contrast to the extreme rightward position of the vast majority of 1897-S Barber quarters where the mintmark is directly above the D in “DOLLAR” and comes perilously close to the feathers on the arrows. The 1897 issues would be the last to feature an extreme rightward S-mintmark position.
Although David Feigenbaum had written that he had only seen a few center mintmark coins, the truth is that these pieces are out there; albeit they are typically very well worn or somehow damaged. I make no attempt to preferentially purchase low grade, center mintmark coins for my own collection and have not found a wide audience of buyers to purchase similarly low grade pieces at a premium to the typically encountered coin. The 1897-S Barber quarter is a fairly easy coin to find and purchase if one is looking for AG3 or G4 pieces and they are sometimes available in higher grades when they have surface issues. I don’t know the number of extant pieces, but David Feigenbaum estimated that the center mintmark position was at least one RR value scarcer than the extreme rightward position and the 2006 Barber Coin Collectors Society (BCCS) census indicates that this may have been a conservative estimation of scarcity.
I decided to do an extended yet simple survey of 1897-S Barber quarters to determine the frequency with which one might find this particular mintmark position. Parameters were chosen prior to the start of the analysis in an attempt to reduce selection bias and to increase overall accuracy. The parameters are as follows-
1) A pool of 200-coins would be analyzed or, in the event that 200-coins would take an extraordinary length of time to find, a time window of six-months would be used.
2) The only source of data points would be coins listed on ebay since ebay represents the full range of novice sellers, vest pocket dealers and full-time brick and mortar shops as well as boutique or high end dealers.
3) Another advantage of ebay over traditional auction houses is that most coins are sold without certification and low grade 1897-S Barber quarters are generally not targets of certification.
4) An image of each coin in the survey would be saved so that the same coin would not be counted multiple times in the survey.
5) Details grades would be assigned to each coin by viewing the image and those coins with higher details grades had notes attached to them regarding surface preservation.
6) The percentage of center mintmark coins would be determined as well as the average details grade.
This research was conducted from late 2010 through early 2011 over the entire six-month target period and a total of 231-coins were recorded. Results follow-
1) Center mintmark coins; 12 (5.2%)
2) Average details grade for center mintmark coins; between G4 and G6.
3) Only two of the 12 center mintmark coins had details grades higher than G6 with one of those being a bent VG8 and the other a polished and scratched EF40.
4) Ten of the 12 center mintmark coins had details grades below VG8, which is 83.3% of the coins examined.
5) Extreme rightward mintmark coins; 219 (94.8%)
6) Average details grade for extreme rightward mintmark coins; exactly G6.
7) There were 20 extreme rightward mintmark coins with details grades in the VF through EF range and of these only a single coin (a VF25) looked to be reasonably original.
8) 185 of the 219 extreme rightward mintmark coins had details grades below VG8, which is 84.5% of the coins examined.
A note of caution should be added to image interpretation. Not only can it be difficult to ascertain details grades for coins offered by myriad sellers using various lighting conditions and having wildly different levels of image presentation proficiency, but interpretation of surfaces is also mighty difficult. As an example, several of the mid-grade pieces were won at auction by myself, but were returned when in-hand inspection determined that they were polished, bent or somehow otherwise damaged.
Overall, I was surprised by two items in this survey. First, the percentage of center mintmark coins was 5.2%, which was on the low side of the 5-10% estimation that I had always used. Additionally, a higher percentage of mid-grade details extreme rightward mintmark coins were available than I had anticipated, but the general level of surface damage that these coins had suffered was considerable. There is one major shortfall that has not been addressed in this analysis and that is the tendency of collectors to withhold from the market (hoard) better date or more interesting issues. If we keep in mind that the center mintmark position is not widely know of or embraced by the broader hobby; that coins in the lower portion of the grade spectrum generate little, if any, premium regardless of mintmark position; and that there are relatively few original, problem-free, mid-grade coins for the issue (again regardless of mintmark position) then we can be relatively certain that collector hoarding of the issue does not play a major role in the percentage of apparent extant populations. This is especially true if we assume that collector hoarding is much less likely to occur in the lower end of the grade spectrum coupled with the long-term observation that the 1897-S Barber quarter is almost always found in this lower end of the grade spectrum. Lastly, the very good correlation of average details grade and percentage of coins with details grades below VG8 between both mintmark positions infers that they are collected under very similar rules and experience similar collecting pressures.
7
Comments
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
www.brunkauctions.com
Congrats on the catch. And the grade.
Now...is the quarter really that red?
Lance.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Very informative study. I do know a few who have hoarded 97-S's and knew of the center MM. This might be why you are not closer to the 10% you thought. I believe it is probably in the middle. Be interesting if 1 could find out if the center MM's were the 1st or the last issued....or even in the middle of the issue.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
When you use the word "average", is this what is also called "median" (50% of the coins less than the value, and 50% higher than the value)?
<< <i>Nice work - thanks for sharing!
When you use the word "average", is this what is also called "median" (50% of the coins less than the value, and 50% higher than the value)? >>
No. When I write "average" I mean "average".
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>When I write "average" I mean "average". >>
OK, so you mean "arithmetic mean"?
link
<< <i>
<< <i>When I write "average" I mean "average". >>
OK, so you mean "arithmetic mean"? >>
Yes, by "average" I meant what is also called the "arithmetic mean". However, I didn't come to any conclusions based upon the numbers typically associated with the grading scale, but rather by treating each grade as an incremental data point that moves on a scale with regular intervals. No doubt that was written poorly so if you want to send me a PM I would be happy to make myself more clear (I hope).
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
This was a joy to read and helped me understand a series I don't follow.
Thank you.
PS
<< <i>Did anyone dig through the Heritage archives to see if an AU or Unc. specimen has been sold since 1993?
<< <i>
OK, I did the dirty work: From VF20-MS68 there were 78 coins auctioned of which 2 were obvious duplicates and 9 had no photo's so here are the observed results:
VF20-35: 15 coins of which 1 ANACS VF20 deails had the center mintmark position
EF40-45: 16 coins, no center mintmark position
AU50-58: 10 coins, "
MS60-62: 2 coins, "
MS63: 3 coins, "
MS64: 6 coins, "
MS65: 12 coins, "
MS66-68: 3 coins, "
In other words 1 coin out of 67 observed from the archives had the center mintmark position, or 1.5%.
Freddie
Did you also consider estimating the % of the extreme rightward coins which have the 2 positions noted by David Lawrence?
from:
http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/reference-books/the-complete-guide-to-barber-quarters/
I imagine that at typical grades AG3 and G4 it may not be possible to distinguish between these two?
97-S quarters are a real treat to find.
I still have the 97-O that you sold me a few years back. Not as rare, but still a great date that I search for when possible.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
A few weeks ago, I was fortunate to locate a PCGS 1897-S Quarter in AU 55 for my newest collection.
Although I have not posted any images of it, one of these days, the coin will be sent to CAC for their opinion,
and then to the photographer.
It is not the Centered Mint Mark Variety, but a pretty decent Far MM Right. When this date
is presented for sale, act immediately. They don't grow on trees.
One of these days, I'll have a box of twenty to mail out to CAC and Messydesk.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
There are two AU examples you overlooked in your survey, they are in the PCGS set registries of "Barber Keys" and the "Iowa collection". I agree it's a small minority of specimens with the
center MM position, I'd guess in the 8-12% range. I think the percentage is higher because of hoarding by knowledgeable collectors. Thanks for an informative study!
Doug
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
What would it be worth? I won a pretty nice one myself EF45 (estimated, submitting to PCGS for grading) for $200. I thought it might be in the low 10 K range but I have no idea, only been collecting for like a year.
Not going to be in the low $10k’s or any where close to it
Latin American Collection
Anyone know what the top-pop 1897 s barber quarter centered mintmark is?
I don't know where you won a "nice" EF45 1897-S Barber quarter for only $200, but that is a $1,000+ coin everyday with any mintmark location. So, it reads to me as "too good to be true". Regardless, the premium for this issue is essentially zero, but if you are lucky or know someone who wants one then you will make a few dollars, but $10k is smoking crack optimistic and not going to happen.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A great informative article.
Thanks @TomB for sharing it.
I could not open the image you posted so if you can, I would like to see it.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I won it it in an auction house that doesn’t know much about coins, prob inherited it from someone.
!
That coin does not look genuine.
That obverse image looks funky. Are you certain it isn't counterfeit? From my view with the single image, it looks awfully suspicious.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I highly suspect this example is counterfeit. If you care to, please show us closer photos and include a reverse shot.
Can’t, it’s being submitted to PCGS. Also I am very certain it’s not counterfeit (sorry the reverse image isn’t good) because the shield has a really nice strike that is hard to replicate without looking fuzzy
I'm sorry, but I've viewed your images and the piece appears to be counterfeit. You may argue all you want, but when your results come back it would be terrific to read about them whichever way PCGS goes.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Yeah, it's a pretty good indicator when the seller states, "Buy three, get one free."
peacockcoins
Doubt it’s counterfeit because on a counterfeit, the horizontal lines would appear to be very fuzzy because the die can only do so well. Also using my microscope, I looked for bulges in the field and the bust and did not find any. Hopefully this picture is good enough.
Ignore first photo, idk what that is
Please keep us posted on what grade you receive.
The reverse of the coin appears to be a Type III REV, where the wingtips extend past the letters. The angle of the photo makes it a little difficult to tell, however. The Type III hub was created in 1900; a genuine 1897 S Quarter has a Type II REV.
Type II Reverse (from my 1897 S Quarter):
The wingtips stop at the edge of the letters.
Type III Rev (from a 1900 S Quarter):
The wingtips extend past the letters on this type.
To me, the OBV and REV both look authentic. If the wingtips on the REV do extend past the letters, however, the coin is a Mule. An authentic 1897 Quarter OBV sandwiched with a REV from a S mint Quarter from 1900 or later.
@JeffMTampa If you look at the ear cartilage on the obverse it seems to me to be from after 1900 as well. What do you see? My opinion is fake coin.
I wrote an article on a counterfeit 1901-S quarter with the wrong reverse type for the date and created this image as a guide:
I'm sorry, but it's still a counterfeit and you appear to have an incomplete grasp of how counterfeits are produced. It's a bogus piece and you were had.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The coin looks like it has a Type I OBV to me- correct for an 1897. But it is difficult to tell with the photos posted. The coin looks familiar to me; I believe I saw it listed on eBay last year.
So, it's been well over a month since you joined these forums and you have posted nine comments within two threads and all your comments are about this counterfeit that you won. You've mentioned that you have one year experience in coins, have won this piece from an "auction house", you paid $200 for it and that it has been sent off to PCGS for certification. You have also had several experts in the Barber quarter and or counterfeit niches respond to your comments and we have been unanimous, if I recall correctly, that the piece is counterfeit even though you have argued otherwise.
However, you have neither provided better images nor told us from where you purchased the piece. An "auction house" doesn't help much, but it might provide context or other images.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Honestly, not to be rude, yet I don't even think it takes a Barber Specialist to determine the authenticity of the above quarter. Upon first glance, it is an obvious fake. A simple tell is the graining appearance, and secondly is the "counterfeiters go-to toning" that has been applied. (Is it still shoe polish, or has that been upgraded?)
peacockcoins