Just a gold coin question on dipping..

Coins299

Is a coin of this color automatically mean it was dipped in the past?

EBAY LINK



Can a coin like that be unaltered what so ever, even if it has luster, or is that impossible? Does an 100% honest coin need to be golden colored instead of bright yellow?

Thanks.

AMRC

Coin looks fine to me.

PerryHall

Nice looking coin. Looks fine to me. Dipped gold usually has a pale brassy look to it.

Boosibri

If you have to ask what gold should look like you aren't ready to buy a bunch of it.

7Jaguars

My read: evidently market-acceptable. That one looks cleaned/dipped. Decent luster in the devices though.

Coins299

So some would think this is dipped based on the color?

ColonelJessup

Kosher

ricko

Coin is fine, Cheers, RickO

PQueue

Many Classic Heads tend to be that yellow gold color.

Coins299

<< <i>Many Classic Heads tend to be that yellow gold color. >>



Is that due to dipping?

ColonelJessup

If nothing else, the orange toning at the rims is a give-away that it has not be dipped. And the lustre is rich and frosty.

Coins299

So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas?

STONE

<< <i>So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas? >>


Because they are made of Gold

pmac

Assuming that the slab is authentic, two professional institutions (PCGS & CAC) have no problems with this coin. Isn't this why those of us who need guidance use TPGs and beyond?

Coins299

<< <i>Assuming that the slab is authentic, two professional institutions (PCGS & CAC) have no problems with this coin. Isn't this why those of us who need guidance use TPGs and beyond? >>



Some dipping is market acceptable so these may be considered problem free according to them. And most gold coins have a darker, more brass color. Am I wrong?

topstuf

<< <i>So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas? >>



They were all minted prior to the California gold discovery and I've notice a lot of eastern gold is yellower.
Just a hunch.
???

Coins299

<< <i>

<< <i>So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas? >>



They were all minted prior to the California gold discovery and I've notice a lot of eastern gold is yellower.
Just a hunch.
??? >>



But bust gold usually isn't that color?

steveben

i think the photos are not the greatest, first of all. secondly, this coin looks sort of proof-like...so that maybe that's what's throwing you off on the look. however, it looks like a nicely circulated example to me.

PQueue

So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas?

I have been told it is the gold's alloy mix. Certainly many Classic Heads have been dipped, and the gold color I have seen also includes both green gold and orange gold. I also agree that in general, many Classic Heads color differs from earlier gold pieces. My point was only that I have seen more yellow gold in this series than earlier or later. It is not because all of those pieces were dipped. The '36 $5 in my Registry set is actually what DWN refers to as green gold, and is undipped (has a few copper spots). My '34 $2 1/2 Classic is MS and a more orange color, also undipped. I looked at quite a few pieces (including yellow gold 1835 $5's) before I bought either.

FWIW, based solely on the eBay pics, the coin pictured appears finer than AU53, certainly on sharpness. It's also priced above a 53 in my opinion.

Coins299

<< <i>So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas?

I have been told it is the gold's alloy mix. Certainly many Classic Heads have been dipped, and the gold color I have seen also includes both green gold and orange gold. I also agree that in general, many Classic Heads color differs from earlier gold pieces. My point was only that I have seen more yellow gold in this series than earlier or later. It is not because all of those pieces were dipped. The '36 $5 in my Registry set is actually what DWN refers to as green gold, and is undipped (has a few copper spots). My '34 $2 1/2 Classic is MS and a more orange color, also undipped. I looked at quite a few pieces (including yellow gold 1835 $5's) before I bought either.

FWIW, based solely on the eBay pics, the coin pictured appears finer than AU53, certainly on sharpness. It's also priced above a 53 in my opinion. >>



How is the alloy different than gold and balance copper? So this yellow gold color could be completely original?

steveben

<< <i>So this yellow gold color could be completely original? >>



i don't think there's any real way to tell for sure (100%)...but it looks acceptable as such.

also, it's in an OGH...so you know it hasn't been monkeyed with in quite some time...IF it has ever been dipped.

Coins299

<< <i>

<< <i>So this yellow gold color could be completely original? >>



i don't think there's any real way to tell for sure (100%)...but it looks acceptable as such.

also, it's in an OGH...so you know it hasn't been monkeyed with in quite some time...IF it has ever been dipped. >>



Well, of course we are talking about a very old cleaning/dipping or PCGS would have not accepted it for a grade.
My only real curiosity is that did these coins have the same color when minted? Some say yes..some no. Could be the alloy I suppose, aging, storage, who knows. But if anyone does know, please share your knowledge. thanks.

ColonelJessup

It's clear you don't know what you're looking at.

One picture is worth 1000 words.

Go look at 20 of them on Heritage. High-end circ and MS. You'll have a much better idea. Try PCGS coins only; too many NGC coins have been NCS's and are really the wrong color.

Coins299

<< <i>It's clear you don't know what you're looking at.

One picture is worth 1000 words.

Go look at 20 of them on Heritage. High-end circ and MS. You'll have a much better idea. Try PCGS coins only; too many NGC coins have been NCS's and are really the wrong color. >>



I have looked at them on heritage; which is why I am asking this, of why so many have that bright yellow color.

How do I not know what I'm looking at? I'm asking why so many look that way. But; even if in problem free PCGS holders, they will accept an old dipped yellow coin, am I wrong?

Coins299

<< <i>It's clear you don't know what you're looking at.

One picture is worth 1000 words.

Go look at 20 of them on Heritage. High-end circ and MS. You'll have a much better idea. Try PCGS coins only; too many NGC coins have been NCS's and are really the wrong color. >>



So basically, if they are in a PCGS holder, that means they are not dipped? I don't think that's always true.

This heritage link should help, look how many yellow coins:

HA LINK

ColonelJessup

Just want to argue or want to learn? I said PCGS coins are more likely to help.

BTW, that's the Classic design, not the Bust design

If you don't know, learn before you spend a buck. Stop speculating based on ignorance and its attendant paranoia.

The coin you asked about is TOTALLY OK. Use it as an exemplar of originality (as opposed to market-acceptability). Many here describe such a coin as "crusty" or "dirty"

DoubleEagle59

In almost 200 years you think that coin has never been dipped?

Don't get me wrong, the coin is fine and definitely a nice one, but dipped it is.

Coins had to be locked up in Fort Knox to get past the dipping craze of the 1970's, and who knows what happened in the other 17 decades.

Boosibri

<< <i>Just want to argue or want to learn? I said PCGS coins are more likely to help.

BTW, that's the Classic design, not the Bust design

If you don't know, learn before you spend a buck. Stop speculating based on ignorance and its attendant paranoia.

The coin you asked about is TOTALLY OK. Use it as an exemplar of originality (as opposed to market-acceptability). Many here describe such a coin as "crusty" or "dirty" >>



Couldn't agree more!

Here is nice and original....


Here is processed crap (This is extremely crappy)....

Coins299

I never said it was a bust? And for a coin to be in that condition, may have been hidden for all those years? Who knows, but is your logic based on the color, or just the fact of its age? I can think of many possibilities from avoiding dipping, but I'm simply asking based on the color.

DaveG

As most collectors of US gold coins know, there's a wide variation of the color of the gold coins over the decades, depending on the source of the gold and the alloy percentages.

Compare, if you will, the color of a post-1879 half eagle with the color of an 1855 half eagle.

While I can't speak to the source of the gold used for Bust coins (the Mint Annual Reports of the period aren't very detailed), I can say that the Mint reported that the bulk of gold deposits from 1824 through 1829 were of "Foreign Bullion" (which may have included foreign coins); from 1830 through 1833, domestic bullion accounted for the bulk of gold deposits (this was gold from the Southern Gold Rush); from 1834 through 1848 foreign coins and bullion again accounted for the bulk of gold deposits and from 1849 onwards, of course, California gold was dominant. (These numbers are for Philadelphia only.)

Here is a link to an article by Carl Lester on the coloration of Dahlonega gold coins - Text - as you can see, even modest variations in the percentage of silver makes a difference in the color of the coin.

I would say, regarding the color of earlier US gold coins, it's important to know the source of the gold used to make the coins, as well as the percentages of the metals in the alloy.

ColonelJessup

Actually, as poorly as I grade from pictures, I'll just base my opinion on 35 years in the business and serving as a grader at NGC. I've owned quite a few of this type in MS, and several, including the Eliasberg coin (now ruined), in proof.

There are loads of gold coins from earlier than this which are undipped. More which have been dipped. Some that have been retoned....

But I put my money where my (big) mouth is. That is what I base my opinion upon

ColonelJessup

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>So why do so many classic heads have this color if not cleaning/dipping? Any ideas? >>



They were all minted prior to the California gold discovery and I've notice a lot of eastern gold is yellower.
Just a hunch.
??? >>



But bust gold usually isn't that color? >>




Do you remember this post?

Opinion based entirely on color.

I can't wait for you to show up at ANA Summer Seminar. I teach Intro to US Coins. Please ask to NOT be in my class. Tell them Rodney Dangerfield sent you

I sold my PCGS MS65 1818/5 25c in this year's Stacks January Sale for about $27K. Sorry you missed that bargain.

Coins299

But bust gold usually isn't that color? >>




Do you remember this post?

Opinion based entirely on color.

I can't wait for you to show up at ANA Summer Seminar. I teach Intro to US Coins. Please ask to NOT be in my class.

I sold my PCGS MS65 1818/5 25c in this year's Stacks January Sale for about $27K. Sorry you missed that bargain. >>



Yes, I wasn't saying this coin is bust, I was saying most pre 1834 (bust) gold, isn't this bright yellow color; as he said that the gold was that color due to it not being from the rush.

All I'm trying to wonder, is if the color indefinitely means the coin was dipped, yes or no. Easy as that.

@ Boosibri, so are you noting a coin of this bright yellow color is processed crap aka cleaned/dipped previously? I don't need a yes b/c of age answer, but just based on color.

Coins299

<< <i>

If you don't know, learn before you spend a buck. Stop speculating based on ignorance and its attendant paranoia.

The coin you asked about is TOTALLY OK. Use it as an exemplar of originality (as opposed to market-acceptability). Many here describe such a coin as "crusty" or "dirty" >>



I understand the coin is totally OK. But that isn't my question. I know it is totally OK in market acceptability, but is it, like you noted, crusty and original? Many dippings can keep luster and just remove a very thin layer of surface. Almost going unnoticed; and be accepted by PCGS.

Are you saying this coin is crusty? Or not.

SethChandler

Great Question. Based on my humble experience, I'd say it was helped a little, maybe a product of the dipping craze of the 60's and 70's. It was given a little time to tone, hence the nice subtle pink around the perimeter. Pink, then rose, then brown. I think that is how gold tones. But then again, the light yellow color could be just be how they are, and maybe the planchet was somewhat reflective, and it has a little pop to it....
CJ is quite sure its all natural, so I'd take that to the bank. The next next time I look at Classic Fives, I am going to being thinking of his comments and just try to figure it all out. Thats the fun. Good thread, OP, I learned, thanks. Just keep looking...everywhere!

Classic Fives bum me out, I sold a VF coin when I was 15 to attend a summer seminar, my second one. 1987ish. I worked hard for that coin! I wish I had that coin back.

Here's an original early Ten I acquired a few months back....
[URL=http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/sethstellacapcom/media/1799Ten.jpg.html][/URL]

jmb

Here are 2 of my Classic Head Half Eagles:

PCGS AU58 CAC


PCGS XF45 CAC


Love the 1799 Eagle.

ColonelJessup

<< <i>Great Question. Based on my humble experience, I'd say it was helped a little, maybe a product of the dipping craze of the 60's and 70's. It was given a little time to tone, hence the nice subtle pink around the perimeter. Pink, then rose, then brown. I think that is how gold tones. But then again, the light yellow color could be just be how they are, and maybe the planchet was somewhat reflective, and it has a little pop to it....
CJ is quite sure its all natural, so I'd take that to the bank. The next next time I look at Classic Fives, I am going to being thinking of his comments and just try to figure it all out. Thats the fun. Good thread, OP, I learned, thanks. Just keep looking...everywhere!

Classic Fives bum me out, I sold a VF coin when I was 15 to attend a summer seminar, my second one. 1987ish. I worked hard for that coin! I wish I had that coin back.

Here's an original early Ten I acquired a few months back.... >>



TY Seth. I've learned a lot from that young kid from Far Hills, NJ. And JD. And DWA. And... Any idea what that green footbally thing on the holder might mean?

BTW, that is a scrumptious $10

edited to add: Classic $5's are SO much tougher than the QE's. Especially wholesome ones.

Cougar1978

Unless it resulted in the coin being BBD, I see it as a moot issue. So many coins have been dipped its like some guy worrying if his wife was really a virgin when they met instead of just taking her word for it.

I would describe it as: a really nice Choice AU coin with generous traces of mint luster; super PQ.

RYK

Rather than thinking in absolutes (the coin is definitely original or the coin is definitely boinked), it is better to think of originality as a continuum. The coin in the OP is probably 60% original, based on the crummy photo and my proprietary classification system. This coin is 90+% original:

Boosibri

<< <i>Unless it resulted in the coin being BBD, I see it as a moot issue. >>



Apply this logic if you want a marginal collection. No comment of the wife thing.

coindeuce

"All I'm trying to wonder, is if the color indefinitely means the coin was dipped, yes or no. Easy as that."

I believe you meant definitely. And it would be very easy to simply ask the seller this question BEFORE you buy the coin to save all of the anguish.

ColonelJessup

RYK....An opinion I value even when I might sometimes somewhat disagree. But we're talkin' P-Mints. I don't think a crusty Denver coin is appropriate for this thread.

Coins299

<< <i>Rather than thinking in absolutes (the coin is definitely original or the coin is definitely boinked), it is better to think of originality as a continuum. The coin in the OP is probably 60% original, based on the crummy photo and my proprietary classification system. This coin is 90+% original:

>>



SOOOO........

the coin in my post is 100% tampered with and not 100% original no matter what b/c of the color, correct? Basically, you are saying it's impossible it's FULLY original.

coindeuce

Back to the question you posed in the OP:

"Is a coin of this color automatically mean it was dipped in the past"

No. Next question.

Oh, BTW washing a gold coin in an ammonia solution doesn't carry the deferential connotation of dipping, which involves using a mild acid solution. Feel better now ?

Coins299

<< <i>Back to the question you posed in the OP:

"Is a coin of this color automatically mean it was dipped in the past"

No. Next question. >>



RYK and a few others seem to disagree.

coindeuce

Maybe an anonymous poll is what you should have posted here to help you decide whether or not to spend $2450.

Good Luck!

RYK

<< <i>RYK....An opinion I value even when I might sometimes somewhat disagree. But we're talkin' P-Mints. I don't think a crusty Denver coin is appropriate for this thread. >>


Good point!

That said, I tend to avoid that which is circulated and bright, as it APPEARS in the photo--APPEARS in caps because based on the crummy photo, I have no idea what the coin really looks like. My guess is that it is a beautiful, lustrous coin, probably undergraded by today's standards, but an area or two of faint discoloration gives me pause.

Here's a Philly example...

ranshdow

Love the look of that 1799 $10, Mr. C.

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>Rather than thinking in absolutes (the coin is definitely original or the coin is definitely boinked), it is better to think of originality as a continuum. The coin in the OP is probably 60% original, based on the crummy photo and my proprietary classification system. >>



SOOOO........

the coin in my post is 100% tampered with and not 100% original no matter what b/c of the color, correct? Basically, you are saying it's impossible it's FULLY original. >>


You read but do not comprehend, Grasshopper. I am outta here!

Coins299

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Rather than thinking in absolutes (the coin is definitely original or the coin is definitely boinked), it is better to think of originality as a continuum. The coin in the OP is probably 60% original, based on the crummy photo and my proprietary classification system. >>



SOOOO........

the coin in my post is 100% tampered with and not 100% original no matter what b/c of the color, correct? Basically, you are saying it's impossible it's FULLY original. >>


You read but do not comprehend, Grasshopper. I am outta here! >>



That's what you said? I understand. Coin shouldn't be directed under IS or ISNT, but percentage of originality. BUT, my question was IS or ISNT, and your answer was definitely is. So, it is..?

Coins299

Any other opinions?