<< <i>This is too funny, Axtell is arguing with other people over what Skip said even though the other people have clearly stated they have a different perspective and any sensible person would know that Skip was being sarcastic. >>
Sorry fellas...didn't mean to draw Axtell out in his full biased glory! Actually, I did mean to let HIM show his true colors ...but didn't mean to drag you into an Axtell conversation
Axtell, yes, Arod will collect all of that money, and yes he will have a stat sheet full of asterisk accomplishments. What benefit do you receive from that?? Seems to me, the only thing you get is to be the defender of his name and character...a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet, except for you...and it isn't just about PED use either.
Arod wil be rich, but money can't buy love and respect, and that will be Arod's hell.
At least Arod sits in that hell with a lot of money...not sure why you want to join it!
Not sure where you got the idea I was defending his name or character. All I've said is he would have been a hall of fame without steroids. And by the way...anyone who says they wouldn't take something if it would make them unfathomably rich is lying. He chose to take his chances that no one would find out in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars. And narcissism? You think arod is the only one who is? You can't possibly be that naive.
Axtell, all you have done is defend him. That is your hell if you choose.
Bonds and Clemens were HOFer's before roids. Arod was most likely taking since high school, so nobody knows for sure what he would have been in MLB without roids.
Yes, other players have personality flaws too...but Arod is the king of tools!! Nobody likes him, except for you. Nobody respects him, except for you. Everybody can see the taint in his accomplishments, except for you.
Why waste your time and emotions on him? Surely those energies could be directed to a more worthy cause.
<< <i>a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet >>
It's not like he openly hit on a fan, while dating Torrie Wilson, *during* a playoff game last year.
Oh wait.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet >>
It's not like he openly hit on a fan, while dating Torrie Wilson, *during* a playoff game last year.
Oh wait. >>
Yeah, that was bad. He is a tool. Plus I feel bad for the girls he sleeps with. Looking at him and how he operates, I highly doubt he gets his partners to orgasm!
He could have at least redeemed himself and created a niche as a tough guy...but he fought like a pansy too!!
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
It's downright cute how you guys think that the negative traits you associate with Arod are unique to him. He's a narcissist! He hit on a fan! As if these are traits that he and he alone possesses and exhibits. He took PEDs! He signed for the money!
It's either that or your lives are so empty you can't help yourselves but take potshots at guys. Either way, I feel sorry for you guys.
<< <i>It's downright cute how you guys think that the negative traits you associate with Arod are unique to him. He's a narcissist! He hit on a fan! As if these are traits that he and he alone possesses and exhibits. He took PEDs! He signed for the money!
It's either that or your lives are so empty you can't help yourselves but take potshots at guys. Either way, I feel sorry for you guys. >>
I thought you weren't defending his character?? That is what you said in the below quote! Yet, all you are doing is defending his character, as shown above.
<< <i>Not sure where you got the idea I was defending his name or character. All I've said is he would have been a hall of fame without steroids. And by the way...anyone who says they wouldn't take something if it would make them unfathomably rich is lying. He chose to take his chances that no one would find out in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars. And narcissism? You think arod is the only one who is? You can't possibly be that naive. >>
I'm simply saying that the attacks you're laying aren't exclusive to him. I just think it's cute how the arod bashing has galvanized you all and you think you're being so insightful with your criticism.
I can empathize with hometown homers, been there and done that. After an athlete gets exposed, either via confession or bust, you learn a lesson. Common sense takes over bias and you say, "I ain't falling for no banana in my tailpipe!".
Others, not so much.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>I'm simply saying that the attacks you're laying aren't exclusive to him. I just think it's cute how the arod bashing has galvanized you all and you think you're being so insightful with your criticism. >>
Yes, that is defending his character.
Unfortunately, he is the king of tools, so he really is unlike everyone else, thus the reason why everyone dislikes him, except for you.
Like I said, there has to be a better place to direct your emotions and energies than defending a tool with them.
Why do you want to live Arod's hell, but without the money to show for it?
<< <i>"As the new cheaters" ... Finally a true statement ... They all cheated in their own way >>
Yes many did. However spitballs don't always "drop" and when they don't they come in very easy to hit. "Greenies" would give you a boost to help you stay alert, but in the words of Jim Bouton you could also get overconfident with a pitch and get clobbered. Stealing signs, well the other team IS showing them to you.
Steroids on the other hand, absolutely heal you faster, help you get bigger, stronger and quicker and a better ballplayer. The downside comes later in health problems after you retire. In fact Mr Bouton said if there was a pill that guaranteed you 20 wins a year but would take 5 years off your life guys would take them. This is a great prediction of the steroid problem. Ask one of these guys dying from side effects if they STILL think it was worth it.
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so. >>
I'd suggest that cheating is cheating. Using different methods doesn't necessarily make someone a worse person simply for cheating a different way. >>
When you admit that he is cheating, and claim to understand what cheating is, then it makes no sense whatsoever to even make this thread congratulating Arod and making this opening remark in your post:
<< <i>650 career homers. Mays up next at 660, and a good shot to pass the Babe at 714. Love him or hate him, you can't deny the talent! >>
Yes, the talent can be denied, and it has been by yourself by saying he was cheating Lol
You can't have it both ways young man...but you are learning still.
Arod is simply the biggest tool in baseball, in almost every way imaginable.
<< <i>"Greenies" would give you a boost to help you stay alert, but in the words of Jim Bouton you could also get overconfident with a pitch and get clobbered. >>
Don't forget tobacco and alcohol are both classified as drugs and were used, heavily in some cases. Since we're doing apples to apples comparison, it is considered cheating as well.
Sure, that way of thinking defies common sense but let's run with it.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so. >>
I'd suggest that cheating is cheating. Using different methods doesn't necessarily make someone a worse person simply for cheating a different way. >>
You have said ALL ballplayers cheat, I say while many do ALL do not.
The POINT (again, continue to ignore it) is that in all the examples of "cheating" here, spitball, greenies, alcohol, tobacco(?), you can just as easily hurt your performance as help it, if you don't get it right. Steroids drawback doesn't come until later in life as health problems. During your career steroids give you an unfair advantage and almost "force" other players to cheat to create a level playing field.
Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it. >>
You have to completely disregard common sense and remember there are no shades of grey going forward. For now on, there's no difference between taking a Tylenol and doing an 8-ball; drugs are drugs and cheating is cheating.
Next up on the agenda is filing sexual harassment suits for the inappropriate tushy pats. It's absolutely demeaning and has no place in sports.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it. >>
You have to completely disregard common sense and remember there are no shades of grey going forward. For now on, there's no difference between taking a Tylenol and doing an 8-ball; drugs are drugs and cheating is cheating.
Next up on the agenda is filing sexual harassment suits for the inappropriate tushy pats. It's absolutely demeaning and has no place in sports. >>
After all, common sense is not that common!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >>
There is no way you can seriously believe this. Do you really think if Mark Whiten had used drugs -- 105 career home runs and .259 average -- he would have hit as many home runs as Willie Mays?
What's the guess on number of steroid users? How many were ever able to reach the same success Rodriguez had as a hitter? Weren't there like 80 to 100 players named in the Mitchell Report? All of them with results far less than an extra 500 career home runs? (Bonds did hit 351 home runs after he started using drugs, but did have three MVP awards before he ever took them; we don't know for sure when Rodriguez started using, )
One thing A Rod does prove for sure is that MLB drug testing can lead to false negatives. That means there almost certainly are players still players in baseball using drugs. Almost certain to end up with fewer home runs than Rodriguez
<< <i>Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >>
There is no way you can seriously believe this. Do you really think if Mark Whiten had used drugs -- 105 career home runs and .259 average -- he would have hit as many home runs as Willie Mays?
What's the guess on number of steroid users? How many were ever able to reach the same success Rodriguez had as a hitter? Weren't there like 80 to 100 players named in the Mitchell Report? All of them with results far less than an extra 500 career home runs? (Bonds did hit 351 home runs after he started using drugs, but did have three MVP awards before he ever took them; we don't know for sure when Rodriguez started using, )
One thing A Rod does prove for sure is that MLB drug testing can lead to false negatives. That means there almost certainly are players still players in baseball using drugs. Almost certain to end up with fewer home runs than Rodriguez >>
I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts. That's certainly beneficial, but I don't see how that one advantage could transform an average player into a superstar.
<< <i>I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts. That's certainly beneficial, but I don't see how that one advantage could transform an average player into a superstar. >>
This has bene my point the entire time. Suggesting that any substance is going to take any random player and give them Arod-like numbers suggests one doesn't know how they work. If they did work this way, every player taking them (and we know there are a lot) would be putting up monster numbers each year.
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
<< <i>Brady Anderson... I'm going to edit this so I am clear.
I only mean that as a random player he did in fact have a superstar season when he 'bulked up'
The comparison is in no way an attempt to say had he did this for 20 years he would have morphed into Babe Ruth. >>
Through age 27 Anderson had over 1000 career at bats with 10 home runs and a .219 batting average. From age 28 through 35 he was very good, 4400 at bats, 172 home runs and a .271 average and 31.5 WAR. So what's the point? We all agree steroids help and if Anderson did use them, they only helped him go from a borderline Major League player into a two time All Star. Which is what almost all of us intuitively believe to be true, Skin either being the lone exception or being sarcastic
Also interesting to note, the only evidence Anderson used any drugs is that he was a good baseball player in the 1990s
There's Jack Cust, similar career arc to Brady Anderson. Went from career minor league hitter to 26 home runs at age 28. But check out his minor league stats, great at age 22 and 23, then fell off before another great year at age 27. Only evidence he used steroids is an accusation from a teammate about a conversation they had, which happened in 2004 at age 25 in the middle of his career slump. Passed multiple drug tests every year of his career
Boo the last thing I want to do is start arguing with someone else on this thread.
HOWEVER when you say "I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts."
You are completely and totally absolutely incorrect!!!!!!!!!!!!! While ONE of the benefits of steroids is reduced recovery time between workouts, it's not the only benefit.
Do some research, Steroids are basically synthetic testosterone. Testosterone is the hormone in men that among other things promote muscle GROWTH. The steroids are constantly being improved so that they work even better. Here's something I found doing a quick search on google;
Anabolic steroids are man-made substances related to male sex hormones. Medical uses of anabolic steroids include some hormone problems in men, late puberty and muscle loss from some diseases.
Bodybuilders and athletes often use anabolic steroids to build muscles and improve athletic performance. But using them this way is not legal or safe. Abuse of anabolic steroids has been linked with many health problems. They range from unattractive to life threatening and include
Acne and cysts Breast growth and shrinking of testicles in men Voice deepening and growth of body hair in women Heart problems, including heart attack Liver disease, including cancer Aggressive behavior
NIH: National Institute on Drug Abuse
So it would seem that they do A LOT more than just help muscles recover from a workout.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Anabolic steroids increase the rate of protein synthesis within cells. The building of cellular tissue (anabolism) is especially noticeable in muscles. Anabolic steroids also have androgenic and virilizing effects. They influence masculine characteristics such as the growth of the vocal cords and body hair.
How Are Anabolic Steroids Used as Drugs?
Anabolic steroids have been attractive to athletes and bodybuilders because they increase the size and strength of muscles. They also increase aggressiveness and competitiveness, which can be desirable traits in sports. Anabolic steroids may be prescribed to promote appetite, stimulate bone growth, induce male puberty, to lessen the effects of muscle wasting from chronic diseases, such as cancer or AIDS, and may show promise as a male contraceptive. The drugs are available as oral pills, injectable steroids, and skin patches.
How Do Anabolic Steroids Work?
Anabolic steroids change muscle mass and strength by two processes. First, the steroids lead to an increased production of proteins, which are the building blocks of muscle. The steroids also block the effect of the hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that existing muscle is broken down at a slower rate. Additionally, anabolic steroids lead to cells differentiating into muscle more readily than fat.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
Wasn't that Skip's sarcasm? >>
Lol, yes sarcasm, but more to draw Axtell out and get his panties in a bunch because his hero isn't the God he believes.
Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. That would be like saying the comic book character Wolverine is nothing because he only has the power to heal faster than a typical person! lol Ummm, the benefit you speak as a matter of factly happens to allow people to build muscles far stronger than guys who don't use. In other words, THEY WORK VERY WELL@!
Nobody knows for sure how much they can transform a player.
They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183
Alex Rodriguez has a career OPS+ of 143...and even though I was being sarcastic with my .260 11HR, looking at the above drastic improvements from the known steroid guys, it isn't out of the realm to see a guy like Arod, who used since high school, to have a similar drop off and be a 100-115 OPS+ career type hitter. After all, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount sit with 112 and 115 career OPS+. Not sure why it would be hard to believe for a career juicer to 'only' have the same career OPS+ as other HOF power hitting shortstops from the era directly before Arod's. Instead he sits at 143, and is viewed as a "talent that cannot be denied." Well guys, it is denied. Sorry Boo, you and Axtell can use bias and hail him as much as you like, but Arod made his bed, and now he and his fans have to sleep in it. Biased be gone!
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
Wasn't that Skip's sarcasm? >>
Lol, yes sarcasm, but more to draw Axtell out and get his panties in a bunch because his hero isn't the God he believes.
Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. That would be like saying the comic book character Wolverine is nothing because he only has the power to heal faster than a typical person! lol Ummm, the benefit you speak as a matter of factly happens to allow people to build muscles far stronger than guys who don't use. In other words, THEY WORK VERY WELL@!
Nobody knows for sure how much they can transform a player.
They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183
Alex Rodriguez has a career OPS+ of 143...and even though I was being sarcastic with my .260 11HR, looking at the above drastic improvements from the known steroid guys, it isn't out of the realm to see a guy like Arod, who used since high school, to have a similar drop off and be a 100-115 OPS+ career type hitter. After all, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount sit with 112 and 115 career OPS+. Not sure why it would be hard to believe for a career juicer to 'only' have the same career OPS+ as other HOF power hitting shortstops from the era directly before Arod's. Instead he sits at 143, and is viewed as a "talent that cannot be denied." Well guys, it is denied. Sorry Boo, you and Axtell can use bias and hail him as much as you like, but Arod made his bed, and now he and his fans have to sleep in it. Biased be gone! >>
This is silly, Skin- and you should know that. Look at the Mitchell report, and the laundry list of guys who are on it that never made a dent in the majors. You are cherry picking the data here.. There's a serious methodological flaw here if you look only at the observational units that support their case and then argue for causality. That's just crazy.
But moving on. You, like I, seem to agree that nobody knows how much they transform a player. Which means, in effect, that you are vilifying a guy for steroid use without having any idea of the extent to which the steroids improved his performance.
I"m sorry, but that's an intellectually irresponsible approach. I think you can hate A-Rod for all kinds of things: Lying about steroid use, for example; or having Cameron Diaz feed him popcorn; or having an A-rod centaur painting hung over his bed. He comes across to me as one of the most insufferable sports personalities of this or any other age, and I, like so many others, will be grateful when he exits stage left and disappears from the spotlight. But not liking a guy is completely different from dismissing his athletic achievements simply because he took a drug for which the magnitude of effect on performance is still unknown.
I could care less if they keep him, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, and whoever else has heard the bell toll in the last 15 years out of their dumb little Hall of Fame. That's fine. They've probably been a stain on baseball, and since most people would like them excluded the most prudent course of action is probably to yield to the wishes of the fans (i.e., the people who write the first check). But let's not pretend that we know the degree to which steroids improved A-Rod's performance, or that we can even make an educated guess at it. Studies that DO isolate the effect of a drug on some physical outcome generally take years to complete, cost millions of dollars, are conducted by diligent and trained professionals AND rarely report, with any confidence, the true magnitude of the effect. Guys like you, who care about numbers, need to show that process some respect here.
<< <i>They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183 >>
Why do you choose to make up the dates for when these players started using drugs, rather than using the information that has been documented?
Bonds started using drugs before 1999, not 2000, according to Game of Shadows. From age 25 through 33, his OPS+ was 181; in those nine years, he led all position players in WAR seven times, was second once and third another time; while he was clean those years, NL MVPs went to Caminiti and Sosa. That's among the highest level of Hall-of-Fame hitters
Caminiti didn't start using steroids until 1996, according to Sports Illustrated, so the jump in OPS is less than you claim. Leaving the Astrodome also helped -- his home / road splits were pretty tough his last years in Houston
McGwire has admitted he started using as early as the 1990 season. The difference in his OPS+ for his drug free years to drugged years is 143 to 170
For Anderson, there is nothing documented about using drugs other than some people on the internet guessing he did
<< <i>Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. >>
It is a very big deal, a lot bigger than you make it sound. Recovery from trauma and pain management are very big issues in medicine. Many players have said some now banned drugs work great in those areas. If drugs can help do that, they should be encouraged, so long as side effects can be minimized
<< <i>For Anderson, there is nothing documented about using drugs other than some people on the internet guessing he did >>
lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season?
<< <i> lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season? >>
So a guy you are completely convinced was a steroid user goes from barely able to hit Major League pitching at age 27 to an All-Star at age 28, but you are completely convinced he was drug-free that year?
After steroids help him hit 50 home runs, you know with absolute certainty he chose to quit them forever yet remained the same size? (and that 6' and 200-pounds is Hulk looking?)
Just because you say he only took drugs for one year and was clean all other years does not mean it is the same evidence we have for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Caminiti, et cetera, about the years they were using drugs and the years they were clean
I'll trust the published multi-year investigations from a Senator or newspaper journalists a lot more than whatever guesses guys in internet chatrooms make
<< <i> lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season? >>
So a guy you are completely convinced was a steroid user goes from barely able to hit Major League pitching at age 27 to an All-Star at age 28, but you are completely convinced he was drug-free that year?
After steroids help him hit 50 home runs, you know with absolute certainty he chose to quit them forever yet remained the same size? (and that 6' and 200-pounds is Hulk looking?)
Just because you say he only took drugs for one year and was clean all other years does not mean it is the same evidence we have for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Caminiti, et cetera, about the years they were using drugs and the years they were clean
I'll trust the published multi-year investigations from a Senator or newspaper journalists a lot more than whatever guesses guys in internet chatrooms make >>
Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Those examples I put above do have grey lines for when they started using, but whichever shade of grey line you choose to start from, there is an increase.
It is possible that Arod didn't get any benefit as a baseball player from using steroids. Possible, but extremely doubtful.
It is also possible that Arod could have had a career OPS+ of 100 if never using steroids.
The truth lies somewhere in between.
I do have to say that the increase in offense starting around 1994 also has to do with other factors, not steroids.
But again, for a guy to start a thread on him and say stuff like, "his stats cannot be denied," is quite foolish. On an 'all-time' basis, his stats are inflated due to the live ball era he played in...and then add in the steroids.
The one certainty in this whole thing is that Arod is a complete tool and completely unworthy of praise of any kind.
<< <i> Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories
<< <i> Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories >>
I seem to recall that Bonds admitted to unknowingly taking steroids (the cream) during the perjury hearings.
edited: per several reports, the semi-but-not-really-confession was leaked grand jury testimony. he admitted to using the clear/cream but didn't know it was steroids.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
1. Barry Bonds (22) 762 L HR Log 2. Hank Aaron+ (23) 755 R HR Log 3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 714 L HR Log 4. Willie Mays+ (22) 660 R HR Log 5. Alex Rodriguez (20, 37) 651 R HR Log
I can't wait for the day he passes Mays, just so all the old fogeys can work themselves up into a lather over Arod, while ignoring the countless stories of Mays himself using liquid amphetamines or greenies. If (and when) Arod hits 661, the mouth breathing heathens on sports talk radio and TV are going to explode trying to defend the 'sanctity of the game'.
<< <i>1. Barry Bonds (22) 762 L HR Log 2. Hank Aaron+ (23) 755 R HR Log 3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 714 L HR Log 4. Willie Mays+ (22) 660 R HR Log 5. Alex Rodriguez (20, 37) 651 R HR Log
I can't wait for the day he passes Mays, just so all the old fogeys can work themselves up into a lather over Arod, while ignoring the countless stories of Mays himself using liquid amphetamines or greenies. If (and when) Arod hits 661, the mouth breathing heathens on sports talk radio and TV are going to explode trying to defend the 'sanctity of the game'.
It's going to be glorious! >>
And nobody well ever respect Alex Rodriguez and recognize those numbers at face value, and that will be his hell. Money can't buy love and respect. Axtell chooses to join in the same hell...but with no money to show for it, lol!
<< <i> Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories >>
Please read my post above. "unless they (eventually) admit to using"
There are MANY players that are getting accused of steroid use that aren't admitting it (Bonds is an exception, his testimony was supposed to be sealed, funny just like the Mitchell report). Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio, Anderson, Pujols, have I THINK all been mentioned. Those are all guesses, some better than others. Testing has failed to catch any of these guys. Even ARod has not (to my knowledge) failed a test.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>. Those are all guesses, some better than others. >>
It is not a guess to say McNamee and Radomski told George Mitchell about supplying drugs to Clemens. Just because some people lie about drug use, does not mean we are guessing about what has been reported
We know drugs were found in Manny Alexander's car, that's not a guess
We know that Rodney Harrison bought drugs, that's not a guess
We know Marion Jones was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors, that's not a guess
We know books have been published highlighting Lance Armstrong's drug use and we know the punishment handed down by USADA, those aren't guesses
For Alex Rodriguez, we're not guessing about what Sports Illustrated and the Miami Herald reported. We do know he has passed drug tests. Saying the test was a false negative would be a guess. Likewise, saying that the media reports are wrong or flat out lies would also be guesses
For Brady Anderson, there is nothing reported and no history of drug tests. Therefore saying he was on drugs in 1996, but clean every other year, like others here have been doing is just a guess. To me, it's a silly guess
<< <i>. Those are all guesses, some better than others. >>
It is not a guess to say McNamee and Radomski told George Mitchell about supplying drugs to Clemens. Just because some people lie about drug use, does not mean we are guessing about what has been reported
McNamee and Radomski not the most credible accusers, surprised you didn't mention Pettite, oh yeah he mis remembered.
We know drugs were found in Manny Alexander's car, that's not a guess
Was a rental car, not owned by him. Bat boy, Carlos Cowart, has no driver’s license and has a criminal record that includes charges for possessing cocaine and marijuana, and a friend were in the car, not Alexander.
We know that Rodney Harrison bought drugs, that's not a guess
Football player different sport different discussion
We know Marion Jones was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors, that's not a guess
Different sport different discussion
We know books have been published highlighting Lance Armstrong's drug use and we know the punishment handed down by USADA, those aren't guesses
Different sport different discussion
For Alex Rodriguez, we're not guessing about what Sports Illustrated and the Miami Herald reported. We do know he has passed drug tests. Saying the test was a false negative would be a guess. Likewise, saying that the media reports are wrong or flat out lies would also be guesses
AS ALREADY STATED he admitted to use
For Brady Anderson, there is nothing reported and no history of drug tests. Therefore saying he was on drugs in 1996, but clean every other year, like others here have been doing is just a guess. To me, it's a silly guess >>
You got Brady Anderson right!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Not defending Rocket but just a reminder that McNamee's physical evidence was allegedly used needles inside of crushed beer cans.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Not defending Rocket but just a reminder that McNamee's physical evidence was allegedly used needles inside of crushed beer cans. >>
That whole thing was a mess from both sides
Rog was a HOFer before the PED...unlike Arod.
Rog was some personality flaws like we all do, but has some charisma that has made him much more likeable than Arod...maybe it was his role in Kingpin?
Arod? Still can't find one likeable quality about him. Axtell? Birds of a feather flock together! But Axtell, unlike Arod, you have no money to show for it! Pick a better guy to back and get rid of the bias...you will be better off.
I'm sure he has some buried way deep down inside. But until it's discovered, he's a self centered jerk that none of his teammates personally like. It just is what it is.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I just hope that now we have rid ourselves of arod we can get over it and get on with the game of baseball. Arod did not need to even get involved with this garbage as he had all the talent in the world. Too bad.
I can't believe there are 5 pages of arguments on both sides about steroids and their effects on ballplayers and not a single mention of bat speed (unless I missed it). Hasn't anyone on here ever played baseball? Bat speed is everything for a hitter. It allows a split second of additional time to decide before committing to a pitch and also produces more force when the ball is struck. To say that steroids only accelerate recovery time is akin to claiming that the only benefit players gain from the use is reducing the number of games they miss. When I played a little college ball, my coach was on me to spend more time in the gym to increase my bat speed. When you go from hitting 80mph fastballs to 90mph fastballs, that extra split second becomes the difference between being a .220 hitter and a .300 hitter.
Comments
<< <i>This is too funny, Axtell is arguing with other people over what Skip said even though
the other people have clearly stated they have a different perspective and any
sensible person would know that Skip was being sarcastic. >>
Sorry fellas...didn't mean to draw Axtell out in his full biased glory! Actually, I did mean to let HIM show his true colors
Axtell, yes, Arod will collect all of that money, and yes he will have a stat sheet full of asterisk accomplishments. What benefit do you receive from that?? Seems to me, the only thing you get is to be the defender of his name and character...a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet, except for you...and it isn't just about PED use either.
Arod wil be rich, but money can't buy love and respect, and that will be Arod's hell.
At least Arod sits in that hell with a lot of money...not sure why you want to join it!
Bonds and Clemens were HOFer's before roids. Arod was most likely taking since high school, so nobody knows for sure what he would have been in MLB without roids.
Yes, other players have personality flaws too...but Arod is the king of tools!! Nobody likes him, except for you. Nobody respects him, except for you. Everybody can see the taint in his accomplishments, except for you.
Why waste your time and emotions on him? Surely those energies could be directed to a more worthy cause.
<< <i>a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet >>
It's not like he openly hit on a fan, while dating Torrie Wilson, *during* a playoff game last year.
Oh wait.
<< <i>
<< <i>a character that has lost the respect of nearly every other person on this planet >>
It's not like he openly hit on a fan, while dating Torrie Wilson, *during* a playoff game last year.
Oh wait. >>
Yeah, that was bad. He is a tool. Plus I feel bad for the girls he sleeps with. Looking at him and how he operates, I highly doubt he gets his partners to orgasm!
He could have at least redeemed himself and created a niche as a tough guy...but he fought like a pansy too!!
<< <i>but he fought like a pansy too!! >>
And he slaps like one too:
It's either that or your lives are so empty you can't help yourselves but take potshots at guys. Either way, I feel sorry for you guys.
<< <i>It's downright cute how you guys think that the negative traits you associate with Arod are unique to him. He's a narcissist! He hit on a fan! As if these are traits that he and he alone possesses and exhibits. He took PEDs! He signed for the money!
It's either that or your lives are so empty you can't help yourselves but take potshots at guys. Either way, I feel sorry for you guys. >>
I thought you weren't defending his character?? That is what you said in the below quote! Yet, all you are doing is defending his character, as shown above.
<< <i>Not sure where you got the idea I was defending his name or character. All I've said is he would have been a hall of fame without steroids. And by the way...anyone who says they wouldn't take something if it would make them unfathomably rich is lying. He chose to take his chances that no one would find out in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars. And narcissism? You think arod is the only one who is? You can't possibly be that naive. >>
Others, not so much.
<< <i>I'm simply saying that the attacks you're laying aren't exclusive to him. I just think it's cute how the arod bashing has galvanized you all and you think you're being so insightful with your criticism. >>
Yes, that is defending his character.
Unfortunately, he is the king of tools, so he really is unlike everyone else, thus the reason why everyone dislikes him, except for you.
Like I said, there has to be a better place to direct your emotions and energies than defending a tool with them.
Why do you want to live Arod's hell, but without the money to show for it?
<< <i>Who's in hell? Methinks you take this forum too seriously if you think anyone is in hell. >>
Looks like you are...doesn't take much to figure that out with the bias and ignorant vigor you use to defend Arod's character.
Not serious at all. I come and go when it suits my mood and use it for what it is.
<< <i>"As the new cheaters" ... Finally a true statement ... They all cheated in their own way >>
Yes many did. However spitballs don't always "drop" and when they don't they come in very easy to hit. "Greenies" would give you a boost to help you stay alert, but in the words of Jim Bouton you could also get overconfident with a pitch and get clobbered. Stealing signs, well the other team IS showing them to you.
Steroids on the other hand, absolutely heal you faster, help you get bigger, stronger and quicker and a better ballplayer. The downside comes later in health problems after you retire. In fact Mr Bouton said if there was a pill that guaranteed you 20 wins a year but would take 5 years off your life guys would take them. This is a great prediction of the steroid problem. Ask one of these guys dying from side effects if they STILL think it was worth it.
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so.
<< <i>
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so. >>
I'd suggest that cheating is cheating. Using different methods doesn't necessarily make someone a worse person simply for cheating a different way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so. >>
I'd suggest that cheating is cheating. Using different methods doesn't necessarily make someone a worse person simply for cheating a different way. >>
When you admit that he is cheating, and claim to understand what cheating is, then it makes no sense whatsoever to even make this thread congratulating Arod and making this opening remark in your post:
<< <i>650 career homers. Mays up next at 660, and a good shot to pass the Babe at 714. Love him or hate him, you can't deny the talent! >>
Yes, the talent can be denied, and it has been by yourself by saying he was cheating
You can't have it both ways young man...but you are learning still.
Arod is simply the biggest tool in baseball, in almost every way imaginable.
<< <i>"Greenies" would give you a boost to help you stay alert, but in the words of Jim Bouton you could also get overconfident with a pitch and get clobbered. >>
Don't forget tobacco and alcohol are both classified as drugs and were used, heavily in some cases. Since we're doing apples to apples comparison, it is considered cheating as well.
Sure, that way of thinking defies common sense but let's run with it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Steroid use is 100 times worse than throwing a spitball, in my opinion.
But you are right lots (but not ALL) of ballplayers cheated and continue to do so. >>
I'd suggest that cheating is cheating. Using different methods doesn't necessarily make someone a worse person simply for cheating a different way. >>
You have said ALL ballplayers cheat, I say while many do ALL do not.
The POINT (again, continue to ignore it) is that in all the examples of "cheating" here, spitball, greenies, alcohol, tobacco(?), you can just as easily hurt your performance as help it, if you don't get it right. Steroids drawback doesn't come until later in life as health problems. During your career steroids give you an unfair advantage and almost "force" other players to cheat to create a level playing field.
Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it.
<< <i>Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it. >>
You have to completely disregard common sense and remember there are no shades of grey going forward. For now on, there's no difference between taking a Tylenol and doing an 8-ball; drugs are drugs and cheating is cheating.
Next up on the agenda is filing sexual harassment suits for the inappropriate tushy pats. It's absolutely demeaning and has no place in sports.
<< <i>
<< <i>Cheating is cheating and stealing is stealing, but there is a DIFFERENCE in the LEVEL you take it to. Forgetting to leave your half worn pencil at work is stealing, but it's not as bad as taking $10,000.00 from the safe at work if you can open it. >>
You have to completely disregard common sense and remember there are no shades of grey going forward. For now on, there's no difference between taking a Tylenol and doing an 8-ball; drugs are drugs and cheating is cheating.
Next up on the agenda is filing sexual harassment suits for the inappropriate tushy pats. It's absolutely demeaning and has no place in sports. >>
After all, common sense is not that common!
<< <i>Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >>
There is no way you can seriously believe this. Do you really think if Mark Whiten had used drugs -- 105 career home runs and .259 average -- he would have hit as many home runs as Willie Mays?
What's the guess on number of steroid users? How many were ever able to reach the same success Rodriguez had as a hitter? Weren't there like 80 to 100 players named in the Mitchell Report? All of them with results far less than an extra 500 career home runs? (Bonds did hit 351 home runs after he started using drugs, but did have three MVP awards before he ever took them; we don't know for sure when Rodriguez started using, )
One thing A Rod does prove for sure is that MLB drug testing can lead to false negatives. That means there almost certainly are players still players in baseball using drugs. Almost certain to end up with fewer home runs than Rodriguez
<< <i>
<< <i>Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >>
There is no way you can seriously believe this. Do you really think if Mark Whiten had used drugs -- 105 career home runs and .259 average -- he would have hit as many home runs as Willie Mays?
What's the guess on number of steroid users? How many were ever able to reach the same success Rodriguez had as a hitter? Weren't there like 80 to 100 players named in the Mitchell Report? All of them with results far less than an extra 500 career home runs? (Bonds did hit 351 home runs after he started using drugs, but did have three MVP awards before he ever took them; we don't know for sure when Rodriguez started using, )
One thing A Rod does prove for sure is that MLB drug testing can lead to false negatives. That means there almost certainly are players still players in baseball using drugs. Almost certain to end up with fewer home runs than Rodriguez >>
I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts. That's certainly beneficial, but I don't see how that one advantage could transform an average player into a superstar.
<< <i>I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts. That's certainly beneficial, but I don't see how that one advantage could transform an average player into a superstar. >>
This has bene my point the entire time. Suggesting that any substance is going to take any random player and give them Arod-like numbers suggests one doesn't know how they work. If they did work this way, every player taking them (and we know there are a lot) would be putting up monster numbers each year.
I only mean that as a random player he did in fact have a superstar season when he 'bulked up'
The comparison is in no way an attempt to say had he did this for 20 years he would have morphed into Babe Ruth.
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
Wasn't that Skip's sarcasm?
<< <i>Brady Anderson... I'm going to edit this so I am clear.
I only mean that as a random player he did in fact have a superstar season when he 'bulked up'
The comparison is in no way an attempt to say had he did this for 20 years he would have morphed into Babe Ruth. >>
Through age 27 Anderson had over 1000 career at bats with 10 home runs and a .219 batting average. From age 28 through 35 he was very good, 4400 at bats, 172 home runs and a .271 average and 31.5 WAR. So what's the point? We all agree steroids help and if Anderson did use them, they only helped him go from a borderline Major League player into a two time All Star. Which is what almost all of us intuitively believe to be true, Skin either being the lone exception or being sarcastic
Also interesting to note, the only evidence Anderson used any drugs is that he was a good baseball player in the 1990s
There's Jack Cust, similar career arc to Brady Anderson. Went from career minor league hitter to 26 home runs at age 28. But check out his minor league stats, great at age 22 and 23, then fell off before another great year at age 27. Only evidence he used steroids is an accusation from a teammate about a conversation they had, which happened in 2004 at age 25 in the middle of his career slump. Passed multiple drug tests every year of his career
HOWEVER when you say "I couldn't agree more. To my understanding, all these drugs do is reduce recovery time between workouts."
You are completely and totally absolutely incorrect!!!!!!!!!!!!! While ONE of the benefits of steroids is reduced recovery time between workouts, it's not the only benefit.
Do some research, Steroids are basically synthetic testosterone. Testosterone is the hormone in men that among other things promote muscle GROWTH. The steroids are constantly being improved so that they work even better. Here's something I found doing a quick search on google;
Anabolic steroids are man-made substances related to male sex hormones. Medical uses of anabolic steroids include some hormone problems in men, late puberty and muscle loss from some diseases.
Bodybuilders and athletes often use anabolic steroids to build muscles and improve athletic performance. But using them this way is not legal or safe. Abuse of anabolic steroids has been linked with many health problems. They range from unattractive to life threatening and include
Acne and cysts
Breast growth and shrinking of testicles in men
Voice deepening and growth of body hair in women
Heart problems, including heart attack
Liver disease, including cancer
Aggressive behavior
NIH: National Institute on Drug Abuse
So it would seem that they do A LOT more than just help muscles recover from a workout.
What Do Anabolic Steroids Do?
Anabolic steroids increase the rate of protein synthesis within cells. The building of cellular tissue (anabolism) is especially noticeable in muscles. Anabolic steroids also have androgenic and virilizing effects. They influence masculine characteristics such as the growth of the vocal cords and body hair.
How Are Anabolic Steroids Used as Drugs?
Anabolic steroids have been attractive to athletes and bodybuilders because they increase the size and strength of muscles. They also increase aggressiveness and competitiveness, which can be desirable traits in sports. Anabolic steroids may be prescribed to promote appetite, stimulate bone growth, induce male puberty, to lessen the effects of muscle wasting from chronic diseases, such as cancer or AIDS, and may show promise as a male contraceptive. The drugs are available as oral pills, injectable steroids, and skin patches.
How Do Anabolic Steroids Work?
Anabolic steroids change muscle mass and strength by two processes. First, the steroids lead to an increased production of proteins, which are the building blocks of muscle. The steroids also block the effect of the hormone cortisol on muscle tissue, so that existing muscle is broken down at a slower rate. Additionally, anabolic steroids lead to cells differentiating into muscle more readily than fat.
<< <i>
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
Wasn't that Skip's sarcasm? >>
Lol, yes sarcasm, but more to draw Axtell out and get his panties in a bunch because his hero isn't the God he believes.
Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. That would be like saying the comic book character Wolverine is nothing because he only has the power to heal faster than a typical person! lol Ummm, the benefit you speak as a matter of factly happens to allow people to build muscles far stronger than guys who don't use. In other words, THEY WORK VERY WELL@!
Nobody knows for sure how much they can transform a player.
They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183
Alex Rodriguez has a career OPS+ of 143...and even though I was being sarcastic with my .260 11HR, looking at the above drastic improvements from the known steroid guys, it isn't out of the realm to see a guy like Arod, who used since high school, to have a similar drop off and be a 100-115 OPS+ career type hitter. After all, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount sit with 112 and 115 career OPS+. Not sure why it would be hard to believe for a career juicer to 'only' have the same career OPS+ as other HOF power hitting shortstops from the era directly before Arod's. Instead he sits at 143, and is viewed as a "talent that cannot be denied." Well guys, it is denied. Sorry Boo, you and Axtell can use bias and hail him as much as you like, but Arod made his bed, and now he and his fans have to sleep in it. Biased be gone!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><< Arod has probably been a steroid user since high school, so no need to get too giddy about his 'achievements'. He still would have been a good baseball player without juicing, probably hitting .260 with 11 HR per year in MLB, which would still be quite an accomplishment for a male human being. So yes, most guys on this board would happy about hitting .260 with 11HR in MLB >> >>
Wasn't that Skip's sarcasm? >>
Lol, yes sarcasm, but more to draw Axtell out and get his panties in a bunch because his hero isn't the God he believes.
Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. That would be like saying the comic book character Wolverine is nothing because he only has the power to heal faster than a typical person! lol Ummm, the benefit you speak as a matter of factly happens to allow people to build muscles far stronger than guys who don't use. In other words, THEY WORK VERY WELL@!
Nobody knows for sure how much they can transform a player.
They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183
Alex Rodriguez has a career OPS+ of 143...and even though I was being sarcastic with my .260 11HR, looking at the above drastic improvements from the known steroid guys, it isn't out of the realm to see a guy like Arod, who used since high school, to have a similar drop off and be a 100-115 OPS+ career type hitter. After all, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount sit with 112 and 115 career OPS+. Not sure why it would be hard to believe for a career juicer to 'only' have the same career OPS+ as other HOF power hitting shortstops from the era directly before Arod's. Instead he sits at 143, and is viewed as a "talent that cannot be denied." Well guys, it is denied. Sorry Boo, you and Axtell can use bias and hail him as much as you like, but Arod made his bed, and now he and his fans have to sleep in it. Biased be gone! >>
This is silly, Skin- and you should know that. Look at the Mitchell report, and the laundry list of guys who are on it that never made a dent in the majors. You are cherry picking the data here.. There's a serious methodological flaw here if you look only at the observational units that support their case and then argue for causality. That's just crazy.
But moving on. You, like I, seem to agree that nobody knows how much they transform a player. Which means, in effect, that you are vilifying a guy for steroid use without having any idea of the extent to which the steroids improved his performance.
I"m sorry, but that's an intellectually irresponsible approach. I think you can hate A-Rod for all kinds of things: Lying about steroid use, for example; or having Cameron Diaz feed him popcorn; or having an A-rod centaur painting hung over his bed. He comes across to me as one of the most insufferable sports personalities of this or any other age, and I, like so many others, will be grateful when he exits stage left and disappears from the spotlight. But not liking a guy is completely different from dismissing his athletic achievements simply because he took a drug for which the magnitude of effect on performance is still unknown.
I could care less if they keep him, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, and whoever else has heard the bell toll in the last 15 years out of their dumb little Hall of Fame. That's fine. They've probably been a stain on baseball, and since most people would like them excluded the most prudent course of action is probably to yield to the wishes of the fans (i.e., the people who write the first check). But let's not pretend that we know the degree to which steroids improved A-Rod's performance, or that we can even make an educated guess at it. Studies that DO isolate the effect of a drug on some physical outcome generally take years to complete, cost millions of dollars, are conducted by diligent and trained professionals AND rarely report, with any confidence, the true magnitude of the effect. Guys like you, who care about numbers, need to show that process some respect here.
<< <i>They changed Bonds from a HOF hitter to the Best hitter ever for a four year stretch. Bonds was a 163 OPS+ hitter through age 34, then became gigantic from PED and from age 35-39 it leaped to 241.
Brady Anderson went from an eight year OPS run of 100 to a four year run of 130 before he broke down.
Ken Caminiti went from OPS+ of 98 through age 31, then from age 32-37 it jumped to 143!
Mark McGwire the first half of his career through age 30 OPS+143(which includes the two injury years where he most likely started using), then from age 31-37 OPS+ 183 >>
Why do you choose to make up the dates for when these players started using drugs, rather than using the information that has been documented?
Bonds started using drugs before 1999, not 2000, according to Game of Shadows. From age 25 through 33, his OPS+ was 181; in those nine years, he led all position players in WAR seven times, was second once and third another time; while he was clean those years, NL MVPs went to Caminiti and Sosa. That's among the highest level of Hall-of-Fame hitters
Caminiti didn't start using steroids until 1996, according to Sports Illustrated, so the jump in OPS is less than you claim. Leaving the Astrodome also helped -- his home / road splits were pretty tough his last years in Houston
McGwire has admitted he started using as early as the 1990 season. The difference in his OPS+ for his drug free years to drugged years is
143 to 170
For Anderson, there is nothing documented about using drugs other than some people on the internet guessing he did
<< <i>Boo, "all they do is build recovery time between workouts." You say that like it is no big deal. >>
It is a very big deal, a lot bigger than you make it sound. Recovery from trauma and pain management are very big issues in medicine. Many players have said some now banned drugs work great in those areas. If drugs can help do that, they should be encouraged, so long as side effects can be minimized
<< <i>For Anderson, there is nothing documented about using drugs other than some people on the internet guessing he did >>
lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and
you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season?
<< <i>
lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and
you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season? >>
So a guy you are completely convinced was a steroid user goes from barely able to hit Major League pitching at age 27 to an All-Star at age 28, but you are completely convinced he was drug-free that year?
After steroids help him hit 50 home runs, you know with absolute certainty he chose to quit them forever yet remained the same size? (and that 6' and 200-pounds is Hulk looking?)
Just because you say he only took drugs for one year and was clean all other years does not mean it is the same evidence we have for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Caminiti, et cetera, about the years they were using drugs and the years they were clean
I'll trust the published multi-year investigations from a Senator or newspaper journalists a lot more than whatever guesses guys in internet chatrooms make
<< <i>
<< <i>
lol So a guy comes back one season, 1996, looking like the hulk, hits 50 home runs (16 the previous season) and
you don't think he used? Then returns the following season, no longer bulked and hits around 16 again.
Where in my original comment did I state that he was a user for more than the one season? >>
So a guy you are completely convinced was a steroid user goes from barely able to hit Major League pitching at age 27 to an All-Star at age 28, but you are completely convinced he was drug-free that year?
After steroids help him hit 50 home runs, you know with absolute certainty he chose to quit them forever yet remained the same size? (and that 6' and 200-pounds is Hulk looking?)
Just because you say he only took drugs for one year and was clean all other years does not mean it is the same evidence we have for Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Caminiti, et cetera, about the years they were using drugs and the years they were clean
I'll trust the published multi-year investigations from a Senator or newspaper journalists a lot more than whatever guesses guys in internet chatrooms make >>
Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess?
Those examples I put above do have grey lines for when they started using, but whichever shade of grey line you choose to start from, there is an increase.
It is possible that Arod didn't get any benefit as a baseball player from using steroids. Possible, but extremely doubtful.
It is also possible that Arod could have had a career OPS+ of 100 if never using steroids.
The truth lies somewhere in between.
I do have to say that the increase in offense starting around 1994 also has to do with other factors, not steroids.
But again, for a guy to start a thread on him and say stuff like, "his stats cannot be denied," is quite foolish. On an 'all-time' basis, his stats are inflated due to the live ball era he played in...and then add in the steroids.
The one certainty in this whole thing is that Arod is a complete tool and completely unworthy of praise of any kind.
<< <i>
Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories
<< <i>
<< <i>
Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories >>
I seem to recall that Bonds admitted to unknowingly taking steroids (the cream) during the perjury hearings.
edited: per several reports, the semi-but-not-really-confession was leaked grand jury testimony. he admitted to using the clear/cream but didn't know it was steroids.
2. Hank Aaron+ (23) 755 R HR Log
3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 714 L HR Log
4. Willie Mays+ (22) 660 R HR Log
5. Alex Rodriguez (20, 37) 651 R HR Log
I can't wait for the day he passes Mays, just so all the old fogeys can work themselves up into a lather over Arod, while ignoring the countless stories of Mays himself using liquid amphetamines or greenies. If (and when) Arod hits 661, the mouth breathing heathens on sports talk radio and TV are going to explode trying to defend the 'sanctity of the game'.
It's going to be glorious!
<< <i>1. Barry Bonds (22) 762 L HR Log
2. Hank Aaron+ (23) 755 R HR Log
3. Babe Ruth+ (22) 714 L HR Log
4. Willie Mays+ (22) 660 R HR Log
5. Alex Rodriguez (20, 37) 651 R HR Log
I can't wait for the day he passes Mays, just so all the old fogeys can work themselves up into a lather over Arod, while ignoring the countless stories of Mays himself using liquid amphetamines or greenies. If (and when) Arod hits 661, the mouth breathing heathens on sports talk radio and TV are going to explode trying to defend the 'sanctity of the game'.
It's going to be glorious! >>
And nobody well ever respect Alex Rodriguez and recognize those numbers at face value, and that will be his hell. Money can't buy love and respect. Axtell chooses to join in the same hell...but with no money to show for it, lol!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Well, none of the four guys you mentioned ever failed a regular drug test, so unless they (eventually) admit to using, what else are we able to do but guess? >>
McGwire and Caminiti did admit to drug use, including the exact season they started. Bonds and Clemens didn't, which is why we rely on muti-year investigations such as the Mitchell Report and Game of Shadows instead of just guessing about their histories >>
Please read my post above. "unless they (eventually) admit to using"
There are MANY players that are getting accused of steroid use that aren't admitting it (Bonds is an exception, his testimony was supposed to be sealed, funny just like the Mitchell report). Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio, Anderson, Pujols, have I THINK all been mentioned. Those are all guesses, some better than others. Testing has failed to catch any of these guys. Even ARod has not (to my knowledge) failed a test.
<< <i>. Those are all guesses, some better than others. >>
It is not a guess to say McNamee and Radomski told George Mitchell about supplying drugs to Clemens. Just because some people lie about drug use, does not mean we are guessing about what has been reported
We know drugs were found in Manny Alexander's car, that's not a guess
We know that Rodney Harrison bought drugs, that's not a guess
We know Marion Jones was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors, that's not a guess
We know books have been published highlighting Lance Armstrong's drug use and we know the punishment handed down by USADA, those aren't guesses
For Alex Rodriguez, we're not guessing about what Sports Illustrated and the Miami Herald reported. We do know he has passed drug tests. Saying the test was a false negative would be a guess. Likewise, saying that the media reports are wrong or flat out lies would also be guesses
For Brady Anderson, there is nothing reported and no history of drug tests. Therefore saying he was on drugs in 1996, but clean every other year, like others here have been doing is just a guess. To me, it's a silly guess
<< <i>
<< <i>. Those are all guesses, some better than others. >>
It is not a guess to say McNamee and Radomski told George Mitchell about supplying drugs to Clemens. Just because some people lie about drug use, does not mean we are guessing about what has been reported
McNamee and Radomski not the most credible accusers, surprised you didn't mention Pettite, oh yeah he mis remembered.
We know drugs were found in Manny Alexander's car, that's not a guess
Was a rental car, not owned by him. Bat boy, Carlos Cowart, has no driver’s license and has a criminal record that includes charges for possessing cocaine and marijuana, and a friend were in the car, not Alexander.
We know that Rodney Harrison bought drugs, that's not a guess
Football player different sport different discussion
We know Marion Jones was convicted of lying to federal prosecutors, that's not a guess
Different sport different discussion
We know books have been published highlighting Lance Armstrong's drug use and we know the punishment handed down by USADA, those aren't guesses
Different sport different discussion
For Alex Rodriguez, we're not guessing about what Sports Illustrated and the Miami Herald reported. We do know he has passed drug tests. Saying the test was a false negative would be a guess. Likewise, saying that the media reports are wrong or flat out lies would also be guesses
AS ALREADY STATED he admitted to use
For Brady Anderson, there is nothing reported and no history of drug tests. Therefore saying he was on drugs in 1996, but clean every other year, like others here have been doing is just a guess. To me, it's a silly guess >>
You got Brady Anderson right!
<< <i>Not defending Rocket but just a reminder that McNamee's physical evidence was allegedly used needles inside of crushed beer cans. >>
That whole thing was a mess from both sides
Rog was a HOFer before the PED...unlike Arod.
Rog was some personality flaws like we all do, but has some charisma that has made him much more likeable than Arod...maybe it was his role in Kingpin?
Arod? Still can't find one likeable quality about him. Axtell? Birds of a feather flock together! But Axtell, unlike Arod, you have no money to show for it! Pick a better guy to back and get rid of the bias...you will be better off.
<< <i>Not defending Rocket but just a reminder that McNamee's physical evidence was allegedly used needles inside of crushed beer cans. >>
Thank you!