A dealer reneged on a sale of a coin to me today......
bidask
Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
I went to the Missouri Numismatic coin show today and while I was browsing coins at different dealers tables I stopped
at a particular table that had some nice Canadian dollars in it.
I asked to see one coin inside the case.... a PCGS labeled MS 65 1950 Canadian $. It had lovely original toning.
I asked him what the price of the coin was and he looked up Cansdisn trends and quoted me $300.
While I was holding the coin and contemplating the price he checked another price list that listed the coin in 65 for $375.
He showed that to me.
I told him I would buy the coin and promptly reached in my wallet and placed
$300 on the table.
He then asked to look at the coin and i gave it to him and he looked at it under a glass
and said he could not sell it to me.
Stunned, I asked why?
He said it was a small water lines variety not the normal variety and then he showed me the
price guide of about $800 difference in price.
So silently I felt it building inside, building inside that I really wanted to say something to him, but in the end a moment later I blurted
out "we all make mistakes".
What was hilarious was he pointed to MS 64 coin of the same date and asked me if I
was interested on buying it.
I said no thanks and left his table..
But it was still building inside.
at a particular table that had some nice Canadian dollars in it.
I asked to see one coin inside the case.... a PCGS labeled MS 65 1950 Canadian $. It had lovely original toning.
I asked him what the price of the coin was and he looked up Cansdisn trends and quoted me $300.
While I was holding the coin and contemplating the price he checked another price list that listed the coin in 65 for $375.
He showed that to me.
I told him I would buy the coin and promptly reached in my wallet and placed
$300 on the table.
He then asked to look at the coin and i gave it to him and he looked at it under a glass
and said he could not sell it to me.
Stunned, I asked why?
He said it was a small water lines variety not the normal variety and then he showed me the
price guide of about $800 difference in price.
So silently I felt it building inside, building inside that I really wanted to say something to him, but in the end a moment later I blurted
out "we all make mistakes".
What was hilarious was he pointed to MS 64 coin of the same date and asked me if I
was interested on buying it.
I said no thanks and left his table..
But it was still building inside.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
0
Comments
the issue !!!
I bet you built up some goodwill with that dealer, too.
You didn't say, but I expect that the dealer acted at least somewhat embarrassed by his mistake and, hopefully, he apologized for mis-pricing the coin.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I buy it, send over payment immediately, the dealer confirms, thanks me. A week passes and I email him asking if they had a tracking number available (as I have heard nothing in the meantime). I got an email back saying:
"Hello Mr. XXXX,
I regret to inform you that we just lost the key to our safe and had to have it broken open. In the process, your denarius was destroyed. Please let me know if you would like anything else of the same cost from my shop or I'll be willing to issue a refund.
Thank you and I deeply apologize for the inconvenience."
How long do you think it takes for them to re-post it online?
I once had the opposite happen where I asked to look at a coin in 1945-S Mercury Dime in NGC MS66. The slab had a price of $30 on it I believe. I looked at the coin, only to check the mint mark, never looked at anything else on the coin. It was in fact a Micro S. I told the dealer I would take it, handed him $30 and he immediately said, Oh Crap, is that the micro S. He said he just started to look at varieties the other day. I told him it was and he said, that's okay, I still made money on it but I won't make that mistake again. He said he was happy for me to have it. I was shocked and I have spent money with him since.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
As an aside, what 'other' guide did he pull out that showed the price variance? Also, did YOU know it was allegedly the $800 variety (pick or no pick, he should have been man enough to at least offer it to you at the $375 , as, like you said (while boiling inside) 'we all make mistakes'. Shows he didn't really know what he had, and scrambled at the last second (the time you took to pull out the $) to make sure he wasn't getting ripped. He gave you a price, and that should have been that. You get an A+ for self-control. The dealer gets an F, and it doesn't stand for 'fail'.
It just goes to show anyone can think they are a dealer while not having enough knowledge to know what an item is worth. He really should have done his homework BEFORE the show. Too bad the word 'sold' wasn't used, THEN you could have, and righteously, gotten a little steamed. This reminds me of something that happened to me on ebay. If he's (the dealer in question) on here, or has a website, or on ebay, please PM me who this 'gent' is, as this is someone I wouldn't EVER want to deal with...sounds like he's the type (this is what happened with me) that, on ebay, would let an item run, get paid, then you'd see your $$ refunded, and some lame excuse explaining how he can't find the coin. The seller that pulled this on me wondered why I gave him a neg, then begged me to cancel transaction so he could get his fees back, and also pleaded for me to remove my neg. I got my refund, and his 'message' he 'lost' the coin less than 6 hours after the item ended and was paid for, as I was watching it tick down, being ready to pounce with a last second snipe, as no one else had bid (he had an invisible counter, so don't know if there was any, and how many, watchers the item had) . He had plenty of time to discover his error, and should have pulled the item, but noooooo. Funny thing is, the coin was back up on ebay for almost 4 times what I paid, less than 12 hours after after I paid him. When I told him 'No' to cancelling trans and changing my feedback, I told him I would if he sold me the coin for the amount I sent him. Told me it was a different coin, then, after I sent a screenshot of the same coin, showing the same cert #, I never heard from him again, as he obviously swallowed the neg and FVF. Sorry for the rant, but people that do this type of thing really tick me off.
Since this was my first time ever at this dealer's booth, I was taken aback. I said, "What's wrong?"
The dealer said "I've seen you buy this kind of stuff before. YOU rip dealers off!"
I said "Really? I've never bought anything from you and I asked YOU what your price is."
I shook my head and walked away muttering. This "hobby" is a pain in the *ss some days.
This time the dealer cheated you out of an opportunity to cheat him.
I'm with TDN on this - before he took your money, he double checked what he was selling you. That's fair.
<< <i>So if this scenario had worked out differently and you found out later after you got the coin home that it was a rare variety worth $800 more than you paid, you'd have felt pretty good about the deal right?
This time the dealer cheated you out of an opportunity to cheat him.
I'm with TDN on this - before he took your money, he double checked what he was selling you. That's fair. >>
Yup you win some and lose some that is how the game is played Cherrypicking 101. You'll get him next time but i would have looked at some of his other coins and pick some of them then i would have walk off.
Hoard the keys.
I would have made me disgusted also.
A deal is a deal
BHNC #203
<< <i>The dealer was an idiot
I would have made me disgusted also.
A deal is a deal >>
Agree. The dealer had no business quoting you a price if he had no intention of honoring it. He should have done his research first and then quote you the price. I doubt that he bought this coin as a rare variety and would have made a profit at the quoted price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I have no problem with it - as long as he noticed before the cash changed hands >>
So, it's okay for a coin dealer to quote a price to a collector and then change his mind? Doesn't sound very professional to me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Anyone who has been in this hobby for awhile can tell stories about unethical coin dealers. I know I can tell many stories myself. As an example, I had a "done deal" on a fairly expensive gold coin. While I was writing a check in the B&M coin shop, the mailman came in and delivered the dealer his mail which included the CDN (grey sheets). He looked up the coin and there was a big jump in price for the coin I had just bought. He refused to complete the deal and I haven't been back to his shop since. That said, I know many ethical coin dealers and they are the ones that get my business. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from the coin dealers that post here and take the time to share their knowledge with us.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I would have not let it go either at $300, especially if it was an $800 coin. As far as some collector getting hacked I backed out on the deal well too bad so sad. Let him go cry in his beer for not getting a rip. Its called "prices subject to change due to current market condidtions."
Kudos to the dealer for recognizing his mistake before giving it away.
However, I don't believe he was very competent in pricing his coins. He almost gave that one away. All of my material has a cost code sticker and a sell sticker (Selling price based on market retail or 30% margin over bid) on the back of the holder Everything is extensively researched before taking it to a show. This board can be very educational in why one should research his coins.
About 15 years ago I received a call from Gary Carlson, who at that time was at Superior. He knew I was seeking a pretty AU 1795 dollar, and called me about an example just acquired. It was in an N 55 holder.
He shipped it to me on approval, and when it arrived I took one look and realized that it was not only under graded, and a very pretty coin, but was probably under graded because of what the grader presumed to be a rather unsightly planchet defect. Right in the center.
I called Gary and explained that I felt the coin was a silver plug variety. He asked that I return it at their cost to be re-evaluated. I shipped it back, and two weeks later received a shipment.
Same coin. New holder, now reading AU 58 Silver Plug.
A note from Gary was enclosed, along with an invoice at the ORIGINAL price. It read something like "returning your coin. Good call. Nice find. Congrats"
There are some superb and honest dealers out there.
EC
<< <i>
A note from Gary was enclosed, along with an invoice at the ORIGINAL price. It read something like "returning your coin. Good call. Nice find. Congrats"
There are some superb and honest dealers out there.
EC >>
Good karma goes a long long way, makes you wanna keep dealing with him hah?
<< <i>Here's an example of a more ethical kind. And I'll name names.
About 15 years ago I received a call from Gary Carlson, who at that time was at Superior. He knew I was seeking a pretty AU 1795 dollar, and called me about an example just acquired. It was in an N 55 holder.
He shipped it to me on approval, and when it arrived I took one look and realized that it was not only under graded, and a very pretty coin, but was probably under graded because of what the grader presumed to be a rather unsightly planchet defect. Right in the center.
I called Gary and explained that I felt the coin was a silver plug variety. He asked that I return it at their cost to be re-evaluated. I shipped it back, and two weeks later received a shipment.
Same coin. New holder, now reading AU 58 Silver Plug.
A note from Gary was enclosed, along with an invoice at the ORIGINAL price. It read something like "returning your coin. Good call. Nice find. Congrats"
There are some superb and honest dealers out there.
EC >>
This is cool all the way around - unless you were the customer who had it on consignment.
I was at a show last year and found a coin in a dealers case I was looking for, but it was at the end of show, I had already been to the ATM and didn't have the cash. I asked him if the price was good on the following Monday, if I mailed a check and paid his shipping charges. He agreed if it didn't sell at the show. I called him promptly on Monday, he said he still had the coin and I mailed a check. Once the check arrived he calls me and says Oh sorry, my son sold the coin today. I was a little upset, no it wasn't a big cherrypick, just a good deal on a nice coin.
So fast forward to this year, I was looking in the dealers case at Long Beach and ask a price on an AU58 bust half, 1830 something can't remember. He quotes me $78. I thought about it for a minute (PCGS guide was $780) and said are sure about that price? He looked again and said yep......I stood there a bit longer looking at him and he said.....oops OH I'm sorry its $780...I told him I almost couldn't take the money out of my wallet fast enough, but didn't want to do that to him. Did I get a thanks......Nope.
My Ebay Store
5 minutes to scrutinize it pointing out every imperfection while whittleing down the asking
price the 175% or so he raised you on the other one
strong as yours.
Steve
This is cool all the way around - unless you were the customer who had it on consignment.
It wasn't on consignment. Gary purchased the coin for private inventory. He's just an honest, ethical dealer/collector with a real passion for early dollars.
I commend you for your patience.
<< <i>I'd imagine MANY a Dealer has had this flip flip and some wise azz collector, after shelling out XX for a coin, grinningly informed the dealer "this is a Cohen12-.33D and worth XXXX (hahaha). Now it's his turn >>
You'd think that if this particular issue was known to furnish varieties that the dealer would have checked immediately upon acquiring it.
<< <i>I'd imagine MANY a Dealer has had this flip flip and some wise azz collector, after shelling out XX for a coin, grinningly informed the dealer "this is a Cohen12-.33D and worth XXXX (hahaha). Now it's his turn >>
I can't imagine any collector dumb enough to do that but people never cease to amaze me. Why make it so a dealer never wants to do business with you again? Dealers talk too so I'm sure you'd get blackballed in a few other spots as well.
Successful Transactions With: JoeLewis, Mkman123, Harry779, Grote15, gdavis70, Kryptonitecomics
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's an example of a more ethical kind. And I'll name names.
About 15 years ago I received a call from Gary Carlson, who at that time was at Superior. He knew I was seeking a pretty AU 1795 dollar, and called me about an example just acquired. It was in an N 55 holder.
He shipped it to me on approval, and when it arrived I took one look and realized that it was not only under graded, and a very pretty coin, but was probably under graded because of what the grader presumed to be a rather unsightly planchet defect. Right in the center.
I called Gary and explained that I felt the coin was a silver plug variety. He asked that I return it at their cost to be re-evaluated. I shipped it back, and two weeks later received a shipment.
Same coin. New holder, now reading AU 58 Silver Plug.
A note from Gary was enclosed, along with an invoice at the ORIGINAL price. It read something like "returning your coin. Good call. Nice find. Congrats"
There are some superb and honest dealers out there.
EC >>
This is cool all the way around - unless you were the customer who had it on consignment.
It was a piece picked up at auction. They owned. it. No harm.
As I was setting up my table, two guys came by and said that they wanted to see a New Jersey copper. It was a nice piece, about a VG, but attractive. Being distracted by setting up and getting hammered by people wanting to go through my inventory, I didn't look too closely at the coin. I knew what a typical NJ would be worth (couple hundred at the time), but I wanted to be sure that we didn't pay more than that. I called by business partner who had put the new inventory together and asked him what the selling price was. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like $250. The guy bought it, paid cash, and left.
Once things settled down at the table, I started pricing the newps with stickers for the front of the flips (we only carried raw early type). I literally--I am not kidding--fell out of my chair when I found paperwork concerning a very rare New Jersey copper variety that was reserved at $5000. That was the coin that I sold for $250.
It was a busy show and the FUN bourse is huge. I just knew that it was the end of the story and I was out $5K, as I had to pay the consignor. I just chalked it up to an expensive education to always be prepared for shows, and at the shop.
Many hours later (seemed like an eternity) the guy who bought the NJ was walking by my table, so I stopped him. I explained that I sold him the wrong coin by mistake. I asked if he know that it was a rare variety and he said that he did not, and only bought it for a type collection. I told him what it was worth, and offered him $500 plus his money back ($750 total) if he would return it, and stated that he was not obligated to do so. He was very kind and said that he didn't want to take advantage of the situation and wanted to do the right thing, so he returned it! Good karma for sure. I have let other dealers out of similar situations in the past as well.
<< <i>Something similar happened to me about 10 years ago. I had a table at the FUN show. For this show I was alone, and we were running behind before the show. As such, there were a few dozen newps and consignment coins that had not been priced with an actual price on the front of the flip (as we often did), or a code on the back of the flip.
As I was setting up my table, two guys came by and said that they wanted to see a New Jersey copper. It was a nice piece, about a VG, but attractive. Being distracted by setting up and getting hammered by people wanting to go through my inventory, I didn't look too closely at the coin. I knew what a typical NJ would be worth (couple hundred at the time), but I wanted to be sure that we didn't pay more than that. I called by business partner who had put the new inventory together and asked him what the selling price was. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like $250. The guy bought it, paid cash, and left.
Once things settled down at the table, I started pricing the newps with stickers for the front of the flips (we only carried raw early type). I literally--I am not kidding--fell out of my chair when I found paperwork concerning a very rare New Jersey copper variety that was reserved at $5000. That was the coin that I sold for $250.
It was a busy show and the FUN bourse is huge. I just knew that it was the end of the story and I was out $5K, as I had to pay the consignor. I just chalked it up to an expensive education to always be prepared for shows, and at the shop.
Many hours later (seemed like an eternity) the guy who bought the NJ was walking by my table, so I stopped him. I explained that I sold him the wrong coin by mistake. I asked if he know that it was a rare variety and he said that he did not, and only bought it for a type collection. I told him what it was worth, and offered him $500 plus his money back ($750 total) if he would return it, and stated that he was not obligated to do so. He was very kind and said that he didn't want to take advantage of the situation and wanted to do the right thing, so he returned it! Good karma for sure. I have let other dealers out of similar situations in the past as well. >>
I remember when this happened, and that you looked white as a ghost at the time, but I never heard how it turned out!
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Something similar happened to me about 10 years ago. I had a table at the FUN show. For this show I was alone, and we were running behind before the show. As such, there were a few dozen newps and consignment coins that had not been priced with an actual price on the front of the flip (as we often did), or a code on the back of the flip.
As I was setting up my table, two guys came by and said that they wanted to see a New Jersey copper. It was a nice piece, about a VG, but attractive. Being distracted by setting up and getting hammered by people wanting to go through my inventory, I didn't look too closely at the coin. I knew what a typical NJ would be worth (couple hundred at the time), but I wanted to be sure that we didn't pay more than that. I called by business partner who had put the new inventory together and asked him what the selling price was. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like $250. The guy bought it, paid cash, and left.
Once things settled down at the table, I started pricing the newps with stickers for the front of the flips (we only carried raw early type). I literally--I am not kidding--fell out of my chair when I found paperwork concerning a very rare New Jersey copper variety that was reserved at $5000. That was the coin that I sold for $250.
It was a busy show and the FUN bourse is huge. I just knew that it was the end of the story and I was out $5K, as I had to pay the consignor. I just chalked it up to an expensive education to always be prepared for shows, and at the shop.
Many hours later (seemed like an eternity) the guy who bought the NJ was walking by my table, so I stopped him. I explained that I sold him the wrong coin by mistake. I asked if he know that it was a rare variety and he said that he did not, and only bought it for a type collection. I told him what it was worth, and offered him $500 plus his money back ($750 total) if he would return it, and stated that he was not obligated to do so. He was very kind and said that he didn't want to take advantage of the situation and wanted to do the right thing, so he returned it! Good karma for sure. I have let other dealers out of similar situations in the past as well. >>
Great story! Personally, I could never enjoy a coin that I knew that I ripped off from some seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Something similar happened to me about 10 years ago. I had a table at the FUN show. For this show I was alone, and we were running behind before the show. As such, there were a few dozen newps and consignment coins that had not been priced with an actual price on the front of the flip (as we often did), or a code on the back of the flip.
As I was setting up my table, two guys came by and said that they wanted to see a New Jersey copper. It was a nice piece, about a VG, but attractive. Being distracted by setting up and getting hammered by people wanting to go through my inventory, I didn't look too closely at the coin. I knew what a typical NJ would be worth (couple hundred at the time), but I wanted to be sure that we didn't pay more than that. I called by business partner who had put the new inventory together and asked him what the selling price was. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like $250. The guy bought it, paid cash, and left.
Once things settled down at the table, I started pricing the newps with stickers for the front of the flips (we only carried raw early type). I literally--I am not kidding--fell out of my chair when I found paperwork concerning a very rare New Jersey copper variety that was reserved at $5000. That was the coin that I sold for $250.
It was a busy show and the FUN bourse is huge. I just knew that it was the end of the story and I was out $5K, as I had to pay the consignor. I just chalked it up to an expensive education to always be prepared for shows, and at the shop.
Many hours later (seemed like an eternity) the guy who bought the NJ was walking by my table, so I stopped him. I explained that I sold him the wrong coin by mistake. I asked if he know that it was a rare variety and he said that he did not, and only bought it for a type collection. I told him what it was worth, and offered him $500 plus his money back ($750 total) if he would return it, and stated that he was not obligated to do so. He was very kind and said that he didn't want to take advantage of the situation and wanted to do the right thing, so he returned it! Good karma for sure. I have let other dealers out of similar situations in the past as well. >>
That's a great story!
<< <i>The price was quoted - ergo an offer established - money produced .... that in effect was a sale. The rest was an unethical process and the dealer was wrong. Cheers, RickO >>
This.
what other guide he looked at but my guess is the guide he looked at
second time had both varieties listed which made him do a double look.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Earlier this year I was at a show and looking at a dealers coins, none of them priced, all slabbed. A Seated Liberty quarter caught my eye, common date, PCGS MS 61. IIRC, grey sheet was somewhere around $325, which I mentioned. Dealer agreed, though I would not say we had made a "deal", however I was getting my wallet out. Dealer asks for the coin back, looks at it and declares it is at least a 65, maybe a 66 and we had better move over a few price columns. He went from $325 to $13-1400 something like that. I said "no thanks" and suggested he resubmit the coin for an upgrade, and to please remove it from his case. "Why would I do that" was his response as I walked away, and gave the dealer next door $400 of my hard earned $. I was a little perplexed/annoyed. >>
No wonder you were perplexed/annoyed. Going from MS-61 to MS-65 or 66 is a really huge jump, and is very unlikely.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I'm no great fan of cherrypickers but if I'm the one quoting the price then I'm obligated to honor it. Period.
To those who say they wouldn't feel right ripping a dealer, thanks. There are apparently very few of you out there.
For many, numismatic ethics is a one way street; all dealers should be ethical to a fault, but if THEY see a rip..."Ethics? What ethics? He's an evil dealer who should know everything about every variety extant if he's selling coins for a living... and if he doesn't, tough. He probably ripped this from an old lady so I'm justified in ripping him." Same logic that shoplifters use..."evil greedy store makes money on this stuff, so I deserve to take this on behalf of the "little guys" they hose every day."
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
If he had been more careful, he would have not quoted you a price until he checked the second or third price guide.
It's fine for him to be a little slow on research / a price quote; it seems he just spoke too soon.
edited to add the time element
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Excellent. I will be happy to sell you some coins at prices that you will fully enjoy.
<< <i>Great story! Personally, I could never enjoy a coin that I knew that I ripped off from some seller.
Excellent. I will be happy to sell you some coins at prices that you will fully enjoy.
I certainly don't mind paying a fair price for a coin that I like and I don't mind the occasional bargain but when a dealer makes an obvious mistake I won't take advantage of that dealer. I can't look at a coin that I know that I ripped without remembering that I was less than honest when buying that coin and it would make the coin less enjoyable to me. That's just me and you may not feel the same way.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
my take is that the dealer didn't really "renege" on anything, he asked to see the coin and then quoted a different price which might not seem fair but it happens. I once had a dealer really "renege" on an agreed price....................he had a small Gold Dollar size medal in his case that I noticed was a Hudson Daalder, HK-371. we agreed on a price contingent with the medal grading at NGC and being genuine. when he next contacted me with the news that it graded MS68 the price had doubled. I bought it anyway and say "hello" to him whenever I see him at shows, I just don't purchase anything from him nor do I recommend him to anyone. I won't "diss" him, but I won't recommend him either.
<< <i>If I'm the dealer in this scenario, I take my lumps and honor the deal...and kick myself for not being more diligent in my research or updating prices.
I'm no great fan of cherrypickers but if I'm the one quoting the price then I'm obligated to honor it. Period.
To those who say they wouldn't feel right ripping a dealer, thanks. There are apparently very few of you out there.
For many, numismatic ethics is a one way street; all dealers should be ethical to a fault, but if THEY see a rip..."Ethics? What ethics? He's an evil dealer who should know everything about every variety extant if he's selling coins for a living... and if he doesn't, tough. He probably ripped this from an old lady so I'm justified in ripping him." Same logic that shoplifters use..."evil greedy store makes money on this stuff, so I deserve to take this on behalf of the "little guys" they hose every day." >>
I am not sure I am following your logic on this one. For example, if a dealer buys an 1829 bust dime for $30 from someone who brings it into their shop and then marks if for $50 at a show and then I come along and notice it is a curl based 2 worth $10,000, am I supposed to tell the dealer what it is and not buy the coin for $50 ??????? In addition, not many dealers would track down the original seller and pay them thousands of dollars after they were told what it was at the show.
The shoplifting analogy is comparing something that is illegal with something that you feel is unethical. Apples and oranges in my opinion.
I was looking to buy a car years ago, and was focused on a 1976 Honda on a dealer lot. Salesman wanted more, I wanted to pay less. I offered $2k and he said $2600. He asked me if I liked Renault as he had a 1980 Renault Le Car, 8 months old, and I said No, do not like Renaults. He said that is why a 5 year old Honda is worth more than an 8 month old Renault, nobody likes them. He said, in fact, since nobody liked them, he would sell me THAT car (the Renault) for $2000.
I thought about it for a moment, and said, OK, deal. He started messily back peddling, etc. etc., and that he would NOT sell me the car for that much. He was loud enough a manager came over to hear what he was talking about, and my neighbor, who happened to be looking for a car came over also.
The salesman explained the situation, the manager listened, and asked him if he had offered the car for $2000. The salesman said he was not really being serious about the offer. My neighbor said that the story was correct, that an offer by the representative of the dealership had been made, and I had accepted it (My neighbor was a contract law attorney).
The manager listened, thought about it, asked me if I wanted the car, and I said yes.
We went in his office, and I bought the car. I also bought the Honda for $2300, and gave it to my girlfriend, who had been my wife for 32 years.
In speaking to my neighbor/attorney, the key was WHO had made the offer. In this case, a representative of the dealership (the salesperson) had made an offer, and it had been accepted. The offer was reasonable. For example, if the salesman would have offered to sell all the cars on the lot for $1, that would not have been a reasonable offer extended by the dealership, and would not be able to be upheld in court.