If the above post is really from Jeff Shevlin (I have no reason to doubt that), this situation gets even more interesting, as we have information from the last two Executive Directors painting a picutre of a terrible situation at the ANA. I plan to sit back and watch how all of this transpires with our legal system. Really, it makes me sad to see things like this happen. Sigh!
<< <i>If the above post is really from Jeff Shevlin (I have no reason to doubt that), this situation gets even more interesting, as we have information from the last two Executive Directors painting a picutre of a terrible situation at the ANA. I plan to sit back and watch how all of this transpires with our legal system. Really, it makes me sad to see things like this happen. Sigh! >>
That is definitely Jeff posting above and also definitely a bad situation at the ANA.
Care for a similar situation? There have been some problems with certain members of this message board over the years. Why not cancel EVERYONE's posting privileges and start over?
Oh, and by the way, you can't rejoin the message board until you can PROVE that you have always followed all the forum rules. Might take a polygraph test or two.
Everyone needs to calm down and get rational about this. The ANA may be disfunctional, but they are not the Al Capone organization.
Two filings were made by the ANA's lawyers yesterday:
1) A request of a change of venue from the Northern District of Illinois to the District of Colorado.
This is based on the fact that the plaintiff, defendant and witnesses do not live in Illinois and virtually none of the events leading to the Plaintiff's claims occurred there.
2) An answer to Mr. Shepherd's complaint.
This is basically a count by count admission or denial to the allegations made in the amended complaint.
Documents are available through the PACER case locator system for the United States Courts.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
Can you provide a summary? Rather than pull up pacer, and wade through what is likely a simple denial of everything, was there anything good that came from the answer?
The answer may or may not admit some (or all) of the allegations of the complaint.
It is likely that few if any of the allegations of the complaint are admitted. Most are denied by an answer. An answer also alleges separately any affirmative defenses the defendant desires to raise [i.e., expiration of the statute of limitations, thus even if Plaintiff proves its case in chief, the statute of limitations on the claim expiring would provide the defendant with a separate and complete defense to the claim].
The function of the complaint (which contains the allegations of fact which the Plaintiff claims are present that would entitled the Plaintiff to the relief [i.e. money damages] the Plaintiff seeks) and the answer to the complaint (which contains the admissions of the truthfulness of some or all of the allegations of fact in the complaint; denials of the truthfulness of some or all of the allegations of fact in the complaint; and affirmative defenses) is to establish the framework for the case [for example a complaint with a single claim for damages for breach of written contract between the plaintiff and the defendant is filed, with an answer from the defendant that admits a contract existed between the parties, denies the breach of the contract by the defendant, admits that Plaintiff performed his obligations under the contract and denies that Plaintiff has suffered any damages; in such a case the factual issues to be investigated through discovery and determined at a trial is whether defendant breached the contract and whether the Plaintiff suffered damages as a result of the defendant's breach and the amount of damages].
Anybody got a link to the counterclaim? I'm about to board a 5-hour flight to Orlando and that would be great reading material.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Note that other documents were filed as well, such as a Change of Venue request (1.3Mb PDF), as previously noted by Greg Lyon, and a Motion to Dismiss for Improper Venue by Ron Sirna.
Dumb question - how come the ANA can't publish these public domain documents on their own website. To me, that seems the transparent thing to do.
The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins"
<< <i>The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins" >>
MAO . . . Good One . . . Almost sprayed sweet tea all over the keyboard ! ! !
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>Dumb question - how come the ANA can't publish these public domain documents on their own website. To me, that seems the transparent thing to do. >>
Possibly dumb answer: For the same reasons that any other organization doesn't publish documents related to lawsuits they are involved in on their web sites.
BsktMkr: <<Yes, we need a thorough review of the museum collection ... and we need to solicit the opinions of members and non-members alike, but these will do little good if the basic management structure is dysfunctional.>>
Sisler: <<In fact I am the one that discovered the thefts and discovered that Yeager was the perpetrator. None of this mess would have happened had I not wanted to see the museums 1792 Half Disme and then Doug Mudd and I discovered that it was no longer in the building.>>
Is Sisler saying that the thefts may not have been discovered had Sisler not requested to view the ANA's 1792 Half Disme?
SoCalledGuy: <<Larry Shepherd's tenure as Executive Director was plagued by inappropriate activities secretly conducted by board members and disgruntled staff. >>
CRO: <<So, they don't know what's in their own museum? ... It's too hard to do an inventory?>>
At the moment, the ANA has many issues to resolve and there are clouds above ANA museum. I suggest that the ANS sell a large number of items in the collection, including some important and rare items. There really are not that many people who have the time to travel to Colorado Springs to visit the museum. The number of ANA members is not rising anyhow.
There are more important priorities than running a museum. If $20 million in revenues was generated from sales of items in the museum, and this $20 million was invested so that at least $800,000 is generated annually, the extra $800,00 could be used to keep dues from rising, pay legal fees, support educational seminars, enhance the ANA's website and for other pressing purposes.
<< <i>Dumb question - how come the ANA can't publish these public domain documents on their own website. To me, that seems the transparent thing to do.
The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins" >>
<< <i>BsktMkr: <<Yes, we need a thorough review of the museum collection ... and we need to solicit the opinions of members and non-members alike, but these will do little good if the basic management structure is dysfunctional.>>
Sisler: <<In fact I am the one that discovered the thefts and discovered that Yeager was the perpetrator. None of this mess would have happened had I not wanted to see the museums 1792 Half Disme and then Doug Mudd and I discovered that it was no longer in the building.>>
Is Sisler saying that the thefts may not have been discovered had Sisler not requested to view the ANA's 1792 Half Disme?
SoCalledGuy: <<Larry Shepherd's tenure as Executive Director was plagued by inappropriate activities secretly conducted by board members and disgruntled staff. >>
CRO: <<So, they don't know what's in their own museum? ... It's too hard to do an inventory?>>
At the moment, the ANA has many issues to resolve and there are clouds above ANA museum. I suggest that the ANS sell a large number of items in the collection, including some important and rare items. There really are not that many people who have the time to travel to Colorado Springs to visit the museum. The number of ANA members is not rising anyhow.
There are more important priorities than running a museum. If $20 million in revenues was generated from sales of items in the museum, and this $20 million was invested so that at least $800,000 is generated annually, the extra $800,00 could be used to keep dues from rising, pay legal fees, support educational seminars, enhance the ANA's website and for other pressing purposes.
I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH!
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Holy crap! >>
I have said before that I thought the ANA Legal Counsel was milking it for all it was worth, but how else can they make $1.9 million over the past 8 years?
Reading the ANA reply, I thought I was watching a "Hogan Heros" re-run that was starting the Sgt "I know nothing"
Aside from the ANA admitting there was a memo with unspecified, non-defamatory content at the show not in Chicago, there was really nothing admitted. Though is to be expected.
I had the same impression as TomB. Seems to me that the ANA is denying a lot of rather basic stuff that would be fairly easy to verify.
And, maybe I don't understand the legal process, but it seems to me that if you deny something, you need to state why it isn't accurate. i.e. the 2011 ANA Convention wasn't in Chicago, it was in Rosemont." (If that is the answer).
But of course this would save time, and reduce legal fees, so I guess I understand why it isn't done. Edited to fix italics.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< "Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
Simple enough. The ANA does not know if Simco truly was successful, they don't know what his motivation was in idling his company and taking the job, and they don't know what his "focus" was at the ANA. It may seem trivial to challenge these things, but I can understand why the ANA would not want to concede these points without a fight. After all, there's money on the line. And for those of us who are ANA members, don't forget that it's our money.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The only things the ANA admitted to were facts that were so obvious they would look stupid denying them. Anything that was the least bit false or required ANY kind of opinion was denied. This was just a page full of lawyer BS. The show was NOT in Chicago it was Rosemont therefore they denied it. Simco being successful is an opinion therefore they cannot comment.
The only things the ANA admitted to were facts that were so obvious they would look stupid denying them. Anything that was the least bit false or required ANY kind of opinion was denied. This was just a page full of lawyer BS. The show was NOT in Chicago it was Rosemont therefore they denied it. Simco being successful is an opinion therefore they cannot comment.
and YOUR dues money paid for that ludicrous response. Why anyone would pay to be a member is beyond me. The best way to get the ANA to listen is to tear up your card, mail it back to them, and demand a refund of your dues until such time that they conduct a full audit and become more open. Electing someone to the BOG will do nothing. Hit them where it hurts. Starve the beast
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Oops.
Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or..........
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or.......... >>
For marketing purposes, the ANA uses "Chicago" although the convention is held in Rosemont.
From a legal standpoint, there is a clear distinction between Chicago and Rosemont.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i> << "Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
Simple enough. The ANA does not know if Simco truly was successful, they don't know what his motivation was in idling his company and taking the job, and they don't know what his "focus" was at the ANA. It may seem trivial to challenge these things, but I can understand why the ANA would not want to concede these points without a fight. After all, there's money on the line. And for those of us who are ANA members, don't forget that it's our money. >>
Well, SIMCO NUMISMATICS has been in business since before 2005 (as evidenced by posts on these forums) so it might be safe to "assume" that it is successful. Or is that to easy??
On the other hand, "successful" would have to be defined but it's such a broad term in that a small eBay dealership might feel like they were successful at turning a $500 profit for 2012 while someone else might not feel successful with a $500,000 profit since they turn $1M in 2011.
Whatever, its a BS response designed to fuel on the litigation fire.
But then, that's only my opinion.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>The only things the ANA admitted to were facts that were so obvious they would look stupid denying them. Anything that was the least bit false or required ANY kind of opinion was denied. This was just a page full of lawyer BS. The show was NOT in Chicago it was Rosemont therefore they denied it. Simco being successful is an opinion therefore they cannot comment.
and YOUR dues money paid for that ludicrous response. Why anyone would pay to be a member is beyond me. The best way to get the ANA to listen is to tear up your card, mail it back to them, and demand a refund of your dues until such time that they conduct a full audit and become more open. Electing someone to the BOG will do nothing. Hit them where it hurts. Starve the beast >>
That would not work simply because there are a lot of folks that have left countless millions to the ANA (as provided in this thread by GregL.
That money could sustain operations during a dramatic membership loss.
I'm beginning to think that the BOG needs to have an oversight committee.
Question: At what point does the Chartering Agency Step In or is that even possible? If folks think that things are messed up now, imagine what it would look like if Congress got into the picture?
Nah, that's not fair. It seems to me that a Corporation with 68 Million dollars in assets (Is the Colorado Springs property really only valued at 1.9 Million?) has to walk very carefully. Especially in this litigation conscious society. Hopefully, all of this will get ironed out before I bite the big one and hopefully we'll all eventually understand what happened.
It just takes time and a few elections to get things straight. I mean seriously, Confidentiality Agreements? Has it gotten that stupid that the first thing you do for newly elected Governors is slap them with a Confidentiality Agreement? (I hope Laura's ready for that won!)
Hey wait, I need to be careful since I am an ANA Member. AT least I think I am.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Is the Colorado Springs property really only valued at 1.9 Million? >>
Just like any corporation, real property is depreciated over time. The $1.9 million is property minus depreciation.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>Why couldn't Simco be revived by Mr Sheperd after he left the ANA?
If anything Mr Sheperd was even more well known among collector/dealers because of his tenure as a former ANA executive director. >>
For those of you that have the PCGS Calendar, this month's coin, the awesome PCGS MS68+ Antietam Half, and write up is all about Larry and SIMCO so I'm guess that coin was/is his coin.
After being an ANA menber for 28 years, I let my membership lapse four years ago because I was unhappy with its management and misdirection. I'm surprised there haven't been more who were fed up and said "Adios!" The only reason I kept my membership as long as I did was to get The Numismatist, but its articles were becoming fewer and less scholarly, and I can't say that I miss it.
This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Friday, July 12, 2013:
MINUTE entry before Honorable Virginia M. Kendall: Defendant American Numismatic Association's motion to transfer venue [52] is entered and briefed as follows: Responses due by 7/29/2013. Replies due by 8/5/2013. Ruling will be made by mail. Motion hearing set for 7/15/2013 on this motion is hereby stricken. Mailed notice(tsa, )
Morgan Everyman Set Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors. Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
<< <i> << "The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Oops.
Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or.......... >>
How else can the attorney for the A.N.A. maintain her “Job Security”? She has to be able to somehow justify the “milking” that she is doing.
While I am not an attorney (thank goodness), you guys are criticizing the attorney for doing what attorneys do. When I was an expert in a case, the other side had to get a report to us by Thursday for me to look at. The report was fax'ed to the attorneys I was working with at 11:40 PM on Thursday, so they met the letter of the judge's order. I looked it over and was able to give my rebuttal by the deadline set by the judge but the attorneys I was working with pleaded with the judge for an extension because the other side had fax'ed the report so late in the day.
What we see here is simply attorney games. Even if some trivial point is ever so slightly wrong, deny it. It's not incompetence, it's attorneys doing what attorneys do.
Comments
<< <i>If the above post is really from Jeff Shevlin (I have no reason to doubt that), this situation gets even more interesting, as we have information from the last two Executive Directors painting a picutre of a terrible situation at the ANA. I plan to sit back and watch how all of this transpires with our legal system. Really, it makes me sad to see things like this happen. Sigh! >>
That is definitely Jeff posting above and also definitely a bad situation at the ANA.
<< <i>Greg, if you were smart, you'd renounce your candidacy and get as far away from this dysfunctional org as possible.
Nothing good will come of this election. My magic eight ball says "Run." >>
Too late, I think.
The time for any board member to renounce the situation would have been at the time of the Shevlin firing.
<< <i>Kimberly Kiick should be placed on suspension until this lawsuit against her and the ANA is ironed out. >>
Actually, there should be several people on the suspended until further determination list.
Funny thing about any situation like this.....about HALF of the information, will be proven true, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
So, sit back and watch this unfold.
message board over the years. Why not cancel EVERYONE's posting privileges and start over?
Oh, and by the way, you can't rejoin the message board until you can PROVE that you have
always followed all the forum rules. Might take a polygraph test or two.
Everyone needs to calm down and get rational about this. The ANA may be disfunctional, but
they are not the Al Capone organization.
1) A request of a change of venue from the Northern District of Illinois to the District of Colorado.
This is based on the fact that the plaintiff, defendant and witnesses do not live in Illinois and virtually none of the events leading to the Plaintiff's claims occurred there.
2) An answer to Mr. Shepherd's complaint.
This is basically a count by count admission or denial to the allegations made in the amended complaint.
Documents are available through the PACER case locator system for the United States Courts.
Greg
It is likely that few if any of the allegations of the complaint are admitted. Most are denied by an answer. An answer also alleges separately any affirmative defenses the defendant desires to raise [i.e., expiration of the statute of limitations, thus even if Plaintiff proves its case in chief, the statute of limitations on the claim expiring would provide the defendant with a separate and complete defense to the claim].
The function of the complaint (which contains the allegations of fact which the Plaintiff claims are present that would entitled the Plaintiff to the relief [i.e. money damages] the Plaintiff seeks) and the answer to the complaint (which contains the admissions of the truthfulness of some or all of the allegations of fact in the complaint; denials of the truthfulness of some or all of the allegations of fact in the complaint; and affirmative defenses) is to establish the framework for the case [for example a complaint with a single claim for damages for breach of written contract between the plaintiff and the defendant is filed, with an answer from the defendant that admits a contract existed between the parties, denies the breach of the contract by the defendant, admits that Plaintiff performed his obligations under the contract and denies that Plaintiff has suffered any damages; in such a case the factual issues to be investigated through discovery and determined at a trial is whether defendant breached the contract and whether the Plaintiff suffered damages as a result of the defendant's breach and the amount of damages].
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Text
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
ANA's answer to Shepherd's amended complaint
(in PDF form, 2.9Mb - filed 7/8/2013)
Note that other documents were filed as well, such as a Change of Venue request (1.3Mb PDF), as previously noted by Greg Lyon, and a Motion to Dismiss for Improper Venue by Ron Sirna.
Edited to clarify document titles.
The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins"
<< <i>The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins" >>
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Dumb question - how come the ANA can't publish these public domain documents on their own website. To me, that seems the transparent thing to do. >>
Possibly dumb answer: For the same reasons that any other organization doesn't publish documents related to lawsuits they are involved in on their web sites.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>I'd kick all those bad guys right in the nuts. >>
There goes another half mil in legal fees...
BsktMkr: <<Yes, we need a thorough review of the museum collection ... and we need to solicit the opinions of members and non-members alike, but these will do little good if the basic management structure is dysfunctional.>>
Sisler: <<In fact I am the one that discovered the thefts and discovered that Yeager was the perpetrator. None of this mess would have happened had I not wanted to see the museums 1792 Half Disme and then Doug Mudd and I discovered that it was no longer in the building.>>
Is Sisler saying that the thefts may not have been discovered had Sisler not requested to view the ANA's 1792 Half Disme?
SoCalledGuy: <<Larry Shepherd's tenure as Executive Director was plagued by inappropriate activities secretly conducted by board members and disgruntled staff. >>
CRO: <<So, they don't know what's in their own museum? ... It's too hard to do an inventory?>>
At the moment, the ANA has many issues to resolve and there are clouds above ANA museum. I suggest that the ANS sell a large number of items in the collection, including some important and rare items. There really are not that many people who have the time to travel to Colorado Springs to visit the museum. The number of ANA members is not rising anyhow.
There are more important priorities than running a museum. If $20 million in revenues was generated from sales of items in the museum, and this $20 million was invested so that at least $800,000 is generated annually, the extra $800,00 could be used to keep dues from rising, pay legal fees, support educational seminars, enhance the ANA's website and for other pressing purposes.
Today's Column: Classic U.S. cons for less than $500 each, Part 6: Barber Halves
<< <i>Dumb question - how come the ANA can't publish these public domain documents on their own website. To me, that seems the transparent thing to do.
The ANA can neither confirm nor deny that this is a dumb question. The ANA admits to having a website. The ANA takes no stance on whether it is transparent or not.
Thank you for you donation to the ANA. Please send future cash and coins to the ANA in C/O "random employee who will steal your coins" >>
OMG. POD!
<< <i>BsktMkr: <<Yes, we need a thorough review of the museum collection ... and we need to solicit the opinions of members and non-members alike, but these will do little good if the basic management structure is dysfunctional.>>
Sisler: <<In fact I am the one that discovered the thefts and discovered that Yeager was the perpetrator. None of this mess would have happened had I not wanted to see the museums 1792 Half Disme and then Doug Mudd and I discovered that it was no longer in the building.>>
Is Sisler saying that the thefts may not have been discovered had Sisler not requested to view the ANA's 1792 Half Disme?
SoCalledGuy: <<Larry Shepherd's tenure as Executive Director was plagued by inappropriate activities secretly conducted by board members and disgruntled staff. >>
CRO: <<So, they don't know what's in their own museum? ... It's too hard to do an inventory?>>
At the moment, the ANA has many issues to resolve and there are clouds above ANA museum. I suggest that the ANS sell a large number of items in the collection, including some important and rare items. There really are not that many people who have the time to travel to Colorado Springs to visit the museum. The number of ANA members is not rising anyhow.
There are more important priorities than running a museum. If $20 million in revenues was generated from sales of items in the museum, and this $20 million was invested so that at least $800,000 is generated annually, the extra $800,00 could be used to keep dues from rising, pay legal fees, support educational seminars, enhance the ANA's website and for other pressing purposes.
Today's Column: Classic U.S. cons for less than $500 each, Part 6: Barber Halves >>
I suggested the same thing in another post by Greg Lyons where he revealed ANA assets that included about a 37mm collection of coin holdings.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Holy crap!
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Holy crap!
I have said before that I thought the ANA Legal Counsel was milking it for all it was worth, but how else can they make $1.9 million over the past 8 years?
Reading the ANA reply, I thought I was watching a "Hogan Heros" re-run that was starting the Sgt "I know nothing"
And, maybe I don't understand the legal process, but it seems to me that if you deny something, you need to state why it isn't accurate. i.e. the 2011 ANA Convention wasn't in Chicago, it was in Rosemont." (If that is the answer).
But of course this would save time, and reduce legal fees, so I guess I understand why it isn't done.
Edited to fix italics.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Somebody is going to look really stupid if this ever gets into cross-examination. A first-year law student could do this one in their sleep........
<< "Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
Simple enough. The ANA does not know if Simco truly was successful, they don't know what his motivation was in idling his company and taking the job, and they don't know what his "focus" was at the ANA. It may seem trivial to challenge these things, but I can understand why the ANA would not want to concede these points without a fight. After all, there's money on the line. And for those of us who are ANA members, don't forget that it's our money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
and YOUR dues money paid for that ludicrous response. Why anyone would pay to be a member is beyond me. The best way to get the ANA to listen is to tear up your card, mail it back to them, and demand a refund of your dues until such time that they conduct a full audit and become more open. Electing someone to the BOG will do nothing. Hit them where it hurts. Starve the beast
<< <i>I have no doubt I'm being a Richard Cranium and that the legal briefs are chock full of legal CYA, but two portions of the ANA response made me chuckle.
The first is the answer to allegation 16 where the Shepherd document states-
<< <i>"Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< <i>The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
The next piece that made me really smirk is the ANA answer to allegation 42 that has, as part of its text, a statement that the 2011 World's Fair of Money was held in Chicago, IL. The ANA states, in part-
<< <i>"The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Oops.
Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or..........
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or.......... >>
For marketing purposes, the ANA uses "Chicago" although the convention is held in Rosemont.
From a legal standpoint, there is a clear distinction between Chicago and Rosemont.
Greg
<< <i>
<< "Prior to accepting the position with the ANA, Mr. Shepherd owned and operated Simco Numismatics ("Simco") a successful coin dealership. Mr. Shepherd discontinued operating Simco in order to accept the position at ANA and focus on restoring ANA to a solvent and effective organization. >>
The ANA response is-
<< The ANA lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of this paragraph and, therefore, denies them. >>
So, let me get this straight, the ANA has no knowledge of what their former Executive Director had done in his resume even though they hired him? Who did the vetting?
Simple enough. The ANA does not know if Simco truly was successful, they don't know what his motivation was in idling his company and taking the job, and they don't know what his "focus" was at the ANA. It may seem trivial to challenge these things, but I can understand why the ANA would not want to concede these points without a fight. After all, there's money on the line. And for those of us who are ANA members, don't forget that it's our money. >>
Well, SIMCO NUMISMATICS has been in business since before 2005 (as evidenced by posts on these forums) so it might be safe to "assume" that it is successful. Or is that to easy??
On the other hand, "successful" would have to be defined but it's such a broad term in that a small eBay dealership might feel like they were successful at turning a $500 profit for 2012 while someone else might not feel successful with a $500,000 profit since they turn $1M in 2011.
Whatever, its a BS response designed to fuel on the litigation fire.
But then, that's only my opinion.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The only things the ANA admitted to were facts that were so obvious they would look stupid denying them. Anything that was the least bit false or required ANY kind of opinion was denied. This was just a page full of lawyer BS. The show was NOT in Chicago it was Rosemont therefore they denied it. Simco being successful is an opinion therefore they cannot comment.
and YOUR dues money paid for that ludicrous response. Why anyone would pay to be a member is beyond me. The best way to get the ANA to listen is to tear up your card, mail it back to them, and demand a refund of your dues until such time that they conduct a full audit and become more open. Electing someone to the BOG will do nothing. Hit them where it hurts. Starve the beast >>
That would not work simply because there are a lot of folks that have left countless millions to the ANA (as provided in this thread by GregL.
That money could sustain operations during a dramatic membership loss.
I'm beginning to think that the BOG needs to have an oversight committee.
Question: At what point does the Chartering Agency Step In or is that even possible? If folks think that things are messed up now, imagine what it would look like if Congress got into the picture?
Nah, that's not fair. It seems to me that a Corporation with 68 Million dollars in assets (Is the Colorado Springs property really only valued at 1.9 Million?) has to walk very carefully. Especially in this litigation conscious society. Hopefully, all of this will get ironed out before I bite the big one and hopefully we'll all eventually understand what happened.
It just takes time and a few elections to get things straight. I mean seriously, Confidentiality Agreements? Has it gotten that stupid that the first thing you do for newly elected Governors is slap them with a Confidentiality Agreement? (I hope Laura's ready for that won!)
Hey wait, I need to be careful since I am an ANA Member.
AT least I think I am.
The name is LEE!
If anything Mr Sheperd was even more well known among collector/dealers because of his tenure as a former ANA executive director.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Is the Colorado Springs property really only valued at 1.9 Million? >>
Just like any corporation, real property is depreciated over time. The $1.9 million is property minus depreciation.
Greg
<< <i>Why couldn't Simco be revived by Mr Sheperd after he left the ANA?
If anything Mr Sheperd was even more well known among collector/dealers because of his tenure as a former ANA executive director. >>
The past several shows he has been setup as Simco.
<< <i>Why couldn't Simco be revived by Mr Sheperd after he left the ANA?
If anything Mr Sheperd was even more well known among collector/dealers because of his tenure as a former ANA executive director. >>
For those of you that have the PCGS Calendar, this month's coin, the awesome PCGS MS68+ Antietam Half, and write up is all about Larry and SIMCO so I'm guess that coin was/is his coin.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Jim
This docket entry was made by the Clerk on Friday, July 12, 2013:
MINUTE entry before Honorable Virginia M. Kendall: Defendant American
Numismatic Association's motion to transfer venue [52] is entered and briefed as follows:
Responses due by 7/29/2013.
Replies due by 8/5/2013.
Ruling will be made by mail.
Motion hearing set for 7/15/2013 on this motion is hereby stricken. Mailed notice(tsa, )
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
<< <i> << "The ANA denies that the convention was held in Chicago, Illinois in 2011." >>
This made me wonder if the ANA classified the convention as having been held in Rosemont, IL instead of Chicago, IL so I went to the ANA website and clicked the "Convention History" link only to see that the ANA lists the 2011 World's Fair of Money as having been held in "Chicago". D'OH! >>
Oops.
Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or.......... >>
How else can the attorney for the A.N.A. maintain her “Job Security”? She has to be able to somehow justify the “milking” that she is doing.
<< <i>
<< <i>Evidently, someone doesn't have access to the website of the organization that they legally represent?
Or.......... >>
For marketing purposes, the ANA uses "Chicago" although the convention is held in Rosemont.
From a legal standpoint, there is a clear distinction between Chicago and Rosemont.
Greg >>
From a legal standpoint, there is a clear distinction between incompetency and stupidity too!
What we see here is simply attorney games. Even if some trivial point is ever so slightly wrong, deny it. It's not incompetence, it's attorneys doing what attorneys do.
<< <i>
From a legal standpoint, there is a clear distinction between incompetency and stupidity too!
School from which you got your law degree? In which states are you licensed to practice?
Other than gaseous.....
Thank you Nickcap for directing me!
Cecilia