1964 Peace Dollars
Raufus
Posts: 6,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was reading the excellent CW "Extra" on the 1964 Peace Dollars. Great story.
It never ceases to amaze me that no one thought of keeping any for the National Numismatic Collection. I think that had someone even thought of it that some of the D and P ones would have been kept.
It's also amazing that there is not so much as a photo.
Anyway, I was wondering how likely you all think that any survive.
As the article notes, they were not counted prior to melting to be sure that all were.
Some said that Mint employees were able to buy two on the first day of production and were later told to return them. One employee supposedly spent them at a bar that night and could not return it
The article notes that a dealer offered a few grand for one. He supposedly had takers until the USSS got involved and scared them off.
What say you? Are any out there?
It never ceases to amaze me that no one thought of keeping any for the National Numismatic Collection. I think that had someone even thought of it that some of the D and P ones would have been kept.
It's also amazing that there is not so much as a photo.
Anyway, I was wondering how likely you all think that any survive.
As the article notes, they were not counted prior to melting to be sure that all were.
Some said that Mint employees were able to buy two on the first day of production and were later told to return them. One employee supposedly spent them at a bar that night and could not return it
The article notes that a dealer offered a few grand for one. He supposedly had takers until the USSS got involved and scared them off.
What say you? Are any out there?
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Comments
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=886005
EDIT: When the memo of the recall circulated through the Mint, wouldn't this greatly influence one NOT to return the newly struck dollars and slip in an 1922 unc. instead? Think about it. You're a Mint employee and a coin collector. After your shift, you purchase 2 new Peace bucks and went home. The following day you receive the news about the recall. Ding, Ding a bell goes off in your head, these may be highly sought after. You know the guy at the purchase window and he has agreed to take any date unc. dollar. Do you go along with the agreement? Or do you turn in your two 1964D Peace dollars?
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<< <i>The DCarr coins are easily identified and therefore will not be mistaken as original. Rest assured, there is at least one real 64 Peace dollar extant.... could be more.... only sure of one though...Cheers, RickO >>
Sounds like an invite to be water boarded and truth serum-ed!!!
<< <i>The thread here might interest you.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=886005 >>
Ye Olde Linkola!!
Dan Brown sold in his shop the
day after the 'recall'.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I wonder how many Peace dollars
Dan Brown sold in his shop the
day after the 'recall'. >>
Of course, this begs the question: Why are 1913 Liberty Nickels bought and sold publically since those coins are not "legal"?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It seems to me that since Eva Adams only "thought she had legislative approval to mint the coins, which later proved to be incorrect, she wanted to make sure that none survived. This is probably the reason the coins or samples of the coin weren't sent to the Smithsonian. The pieces were never authorized for production unoike the 1933 Saint Gaudens.
Of course, this begs the question: Why are 1913 Liberty Nickels bought and sold publically since those coins are not "legal"? >>
Actually, they are perfectly legal.
<< <i>I'll believe there are 1964 Peace dollars when I can see one in my own hands. They are like big foot, unicorns, and the abominable snowman---everyone knows someone that knows someone that has seen one. >>
<< <i>I'll believe there are 1964 Peace dollars when I can see one in my own hands. They are like big foot, unicorns, and the abominable snowman---everyone knows someone that knows someone that has seen one. >>
Don't forget the Rougarou and chupacabras.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>There was a small window, for which Mint employees were able to purchase the new Peace bucks, we know this as fact. The accountability of the dollars was probably done by weight, as examining each one would be time consuming and not cost effective. If done by weight, then it's possible an uncirculated earlier dated Peace buck, could have taken the place of the recalled dollars. I find it very possible that there are a handful or small group somewhere. PCGS offered 10k I believe for an example. I don't think this is enough to shake em off the tree though. If one ever surfaces, it WILL be a landmark event and all will know about it.
EDIT: When the memo of the recall circulated through the Mint, wouldn't this greatly influence one NOT to return the newly struck dollars and slip in an 1922 unc. instead? Think about it. You're a Mint employee and a coin collector. After your shift, you purchase 2 new Peace bucks and went home. The following day you receive the news about the recall. Ding, Ding a bell goes off in your head, these may be highly sought after. You know the guy at the purchase window and he has agreed to take any date unc. dollar. Do you go along with the agreement? Or do you turn in your two 1964D Peace dollars? >>
I agree. It would really be amazing if none of the hundreds of thousands which were struck survive - especially considering that some were sold to Mint employees.
It is also amazing that, even if Ms. Adams thought that they were not authorized, that none were saved. Everyone knew that they were minted. They were still thus a part of numismatic history. Such a loss! Not even a photo.
<< <i>There was a small window, for which Mint employees were able to purchase the new Peace bucks, we know this as fact. The accountability of the dollars was probably done by weight, as examining each one would be time consuming and not cost effective. If done by weight, then it's possible an uncirculated earlier dated Peace buck, could have taken the place of the recalled dollars. I find it very possible that there are a handful or small group somewhere. PCGS offered 10k I believe for an example. I don't think this is enough to shake em off the tree though. If one ever surfaces, it WILL be a landmark event and all will know about it.
EDIT: When the memo of the recall circulated through the Mint, wouldn't this greatly influence one NOT to return the newly struck dollars and slip in an 1922 unc. instead? Think about it. You're a Mint employee and a coin collector. After your shift, you purchase 2 new Peace bucks and went home. The following day you receive the news about the recall. Ding, Ding a bell goes off in your head, these may be highly sought after. You know the guy at the purchase window and he has agreed to take any date unc. dollar. Do you go along with the agreement? Or do you turn in your two 1964D Peace dollars? >>
Seems to me that smoeone other than the cashier would have verified that all coins issued would have been accounted for as returned.
<< <i>There was a small window, for which Mint employees were able to purchase the new Peace bucks, we know this as fact. >>
I've never heard a named first-person account of this or any official (or unofficial) written evidence. Based on the lack of both, I would classify the sales as hearsay. Not to say that it didn't happen, but just that there's no evidence or first-person witness account of it happening.
I'd love to see one in public and authenticated by PCGS. I do think it could possibly be authenticated at PCGS offices overseas and then disappear again if that was the goal.
<< <i>For God's sake, whomever has one had better not send it to the Mint for "verification". LOL. >>
Well, they would confirm the existence and then we'd all know one existed
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to me that since Eva Adams only "thought she had legislative approval to mint the coins, which later proved to be incorrect, she wanted to make sure that none survived. This is probably the reason the coins or samples of the coin weren't sent to the Smithsonian. The pieces were never authorized for production unoike the 1933 Saint Gaudens.
Of course, this begs the question: Why are 1913 Liberty Nickels bought and sold publically since those coins are not "legal"? >>
Actually, they are perfectly legal. >>
Ahhhh.
So let me get this straight.
If I can get into the US Mint after hours
Polish up some dies for a coin which has not been approved for production
Mint up 5 or so samples
Then take them home with me to sell 7 years later.............
It's not against the law?
Hmmmm.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to me that since Eva Adams only "thought she had legislative approval to mint the coins, which later proved to be incorrect, she wanted to make sure that none survived. This is probably the reason the coins or samples of the coin weren't sent to the Smithsonian. The pieces were never authorized for production unoike the 1933 Saint Gaudens.
Of course, this begs the question: Why are 1913 Liberty Nickels bought and sold publically since those coins are not "legal"? >>
Actually, they are perfectly legal. >>
Ahhhh.
So let me get this straight.
If I can get into the US Mint after hours
Polish up some dies for a coin which has not been approved for production
Mint up 5 or so samples
Then take them home with me to sell 7 years later.............
It's not against the law?
Hmmmm.
They were legalized retroactively. Whatever questions there were about their legality were answered by legislation. Do note that the 1933 $20s were exempted.
<< <i>I was reading the excellent CW "Extra" on the 1964 Peace Dollars. Great story.
It never ceases to amaze me that no one thought of keeping any for the National Numismatic Collection. I think that had someone even thought of it that some of the D and P ones would have been kept.
What say you? Are any out there? >>
No chance of any P Mint coins. Ever. They were all made in Denver.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to me that since Eva Adams only "thought she had legislative approval to mint the coins, which later proved to be incorrect, she wanted to make sure that none survived. This is probably the reason the coins or samples of the coin weren't sent to the Smithsonian. The pieces were never authorized for production unoike the 1933 Saint Gaudens.
Of course, this begs the question: Why are 1913 Liberty Nickels bought and sold publically since those coins are not "legal"? >>
Actually, they are perfectly legal. >>
Ahhhh.
So let me get this straight.
If I can get into the US Mint after hours
Polish up some dies for a coin which has not been approved for production
Mint up 5 or so samples
Then take them home with me to sell 7 years later.............
It's not against the law?
Hmmmm.
They were legalized retroactively. Whatever questions there were about their legality were answered by legislation. Do note that the 1933 $20s were exempted. >>
Exactly which "legislation" was this so I can "get my mind right"?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It has been clearly stated by those involved that individual coins were not accounted for. It was done by weight. >>
If a small number of coins were handed out, it would have been relatively easy to verify that the correct coins [no substitutes] were returned.
Folks seem to forget that the original Peace Dollar Master Die was destroyed and that Frank Gasparro had to create a new master.
Speculation abounds with what that might have looked like and what subtle differences existed between the new die and the original dies.
I expect that Frank may have farted around with the new dies just like he did with the Eisenhower Dollar dies. Think PegLeg non-pegleg in the same year.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Exactly which "legislation" was this so I can "get my mind right"? >>
The "Coinage Act of 1965"
PS: As they say, "A mind is a terrible then to waste”
The people in the mint don't really think like collectors. Remember, it is just a workplace to them.
If someone came around to your office and started asking questions about stuff that happened 50 years ago, how much could you really tell them?
<< <i>I doubt much can be discovered beyond the documents RWB has already uncovered in the Nat. archives.
The people in the mint don't really think like collectors. Remember, it is just a workplace to them.
If someone came around to your office and started asking questions about stuff that happened 50 years ago, how much could you really tell them? >>
I can remember stuff from 50 years ago. Just don't ask me what I had for breakfast!!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Exactly which "legislation" was this so I can "get my mind right"? >>
The "Coinage Act of 1965"
PS: As they say, "A mind is a terrible then to waste”
"A terrible THEN"?
No matter, I was able to read it so I must be wasted................
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I doubt much can be discovered beyond the documents RWB has already uncovered in the Nat. archives.
The people in the mint don't really think like collectors. Remember, it is just a workplace to them.
If someone came around to your office and started asking questions about stuff that happened 50 years ago, how much could you really tell them? >>
I can remember stuff from 50 years ago. Just don't ask me what I had for breakfast!!!!!!
One reason I gave up breakfast!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It never ceases to amaze me that no one thought of keeping any for the National Numismatic Collection. I think that had someone even thought of it that some of the D and P ones would have been kept >>
Back in 1965 when these coins were minted many officials in the Federal Government, especially in the treasury department, thought of coin collectors as slightly ahead of roaches in the evolutionary spectrum. The reason was that coin collectors were blamed for causing the coin shortage. The last thing anyone in the Federal Government wanted to do was save some experimental coins for collectors see in the future. As late as 1975 some Bicentennial patterns went to the melting pot, which were in some ways less important. Back then coin collectors were "dead meat." Today we are "meat on the table."
As for the question as whether or not there are any out there, a coin dealer, whom I knew to be a very honest person and an expert in modern coinage told me this story. One evening a collector he knew offered to show him a 1964-D Peace dollar. This dealer saw the piece and told me it was genuine. Unfortunately that dealer has since passed on so the story ends there for me. Urban legend or truth? Who knows?
If there is one or more of them out there, those who have need only look at what has happened to the Longboard family. That is easily enough to keep the coins in hiding.
<< <i>Has the good Mr. Carr ever considered producing a 1965 clad Peace dollar? >>
He would have to overstrike an Ike dollar and it may not be practical since he would have to strike it numerous times (copper-nickel alloy is fairly hard) to completely flatten the design on the host coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I'll believe there are 1964 Peace dollars when I can see one in my own hands. They are like big foot, unicorns, and the abominable snowman---everyone knows someone that knows someone that has seen one. >>
I have never met anybody who claimed to see bigfoot, unicorns, or an abominable snowman!
<< <i>Has the good Mr. Carr ever considered producing a 1965 clad Peace dollar? >>
Besides the difficulty of overstriking Eisenhower Dollars ... US clad planchets don't really look that good when it comes to the copper showing through on the edges imho. Guess it would be interesting using a few pre Loonie Canadian CN dollar planchets that way there would be no doubt that these are fantasy pieces.
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<< <i>I would think a 64 peace dollar would be legal to own, since the mint sold them to employees, and one employee traded his for a
That story has been widely reported, but evidence supporting the accuracy of that account is lacking.
And there is the possibility that someone confused this with the new 1964 Kennedy half dollars that were available to US Mint employeees.
<< <i>Has the good Mr. Carr ever considered producing a 1965 clad Peace dollar? >>
I have. If such a coin had originally been produced, it probably would have had a 40% silver (clad) composition, like the 1965 half dollars.
I would have to use Eisenhower dollars for that, and the difficulty in over-striking a completely new design would be considerable.
So I'm skeptical that it would work out well.
Other Peace dollar fantasy dates that I have considered are:
1920 (high relief)
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1936 (proof)
1965 (90% silver, 40% silver, and/or copper-nickel clad)
Interests:
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Toned Commemoratives
<< <i>
<< <i>Has the good Mr. Carr ever considered producing a 1965 clad Peace dollar? >>
I have. If such a coin had originally been produced, it probably would have had a 40% silver (clad) composition, like the 1965 half dollars.
I would have to use Eisenhower dollars for that, and the difficulty in over-striking a completely new design would be considerable.
So I'm skeptical that it would work out well.
Other Peace dollar fantasy dates that I have considered are:
1920 (high relief)
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1936 (proof)
1965 (90% silver, 40% silver, and/or copper-nickel clad) >>
Thank you for the reply. You have been thinking far more broadly than I have!
<< <i>I was reading the excellent CW "Extra" on the 1964 Peace Dollars. Great story. >>
Just ran across this Michael P. Lantz YouTube video on the 1964 Peace Dollars which looks worth watching.