So, I didn't read the letter but if its saying someone stole some 1964-d peace dollars, great. If one ever comes up, charge the person with receiving stolen property and quickly confiscate it and return to the rightful owner.
I don't see how Dcarr could have an agenda on something not existing. To me, if the owner/manufacturer says they don't exist, then everything regarding the coin is a moot point. Maybe someone in 1966 made one and decided to claim it as real and had some folks write letters saying a few were released. Would you put more credibility in some joe nobody's account than the owner/manufacturers?
As a collector, I sure wouldn't want to one something that can not me legitimized, ever.
It's not like a unicorn or a leprechaun ... and there's no proof beyond the fact that they were all allegedly melted that would give me cause to believe any exist. I want to believe, but it's difficult after fifty years, with not even ONE surfacing. I can understand an employee taking it to the grave with them.
Interesting thread. Not sure what it does or does not prove. I do want to know how this new revelation affects the value of my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>If the letter is genuine and the dollars were available for purchase from 9am-2pm, meaning they were released, why would they be confiscated? Anyone know for sure if they'll be confiscated if brought out of hiding? What is the Mint's definition of released? Released means for circulation? Interesting letter CaptHenway, thanks for sharing it with us.
EDIT: One has to assume some escaped the Mint, especially after the recall was made. I certainly would have purchased the limit of two for sure. If the 64D Peace bucks are ever deemed legal to own, what will happen to the fantasy pieces many of us own? It's possible none have surfaced because of the consequences. The 10k reward isn't enough to shake em loose. >>
It's likely that someone would want some official assurance that they are indeed legal to own before ever revealing that they have any.
Would it be possible to authenticate one at this point? What if a son/grandson of a mint employee came forward with an alleged 1964-D and claimed his father gave it to him and explained the story, and he had documentation that his dad was working on the date in question? With nothing to authenticate it against I can't see it happening. It's just to easy to have a fake.
Were the original dies destroyed? I assume they were.
Interesting letter. I have heard from reputable sources that the '64 D Peace Dollar does exist. I have never seen one, but enjoy the legend. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>The fantasies won't cause a problem for the TPG's, the die characteristics of the DCarr ones are public info. Might be a problem with some top quality fakes. >>
Would the Government consider them to be counterfeits if a real one surfaced?
I moved to Denver in 1978, and worked at a coin shop there from 1979-1983. Dan Brown was a legend, a friend of the shop's owner, and a frequent visitor (as was our friend Dan Carr). He handled some fantastic coins in his day. It was not uncommon for "deals" to be made behind closed doors. I would frequently be shown some of the better coins, but never saw a '64 Peace dollar. Still, I'd like to believe that one or more of them have survived. It would make quite a story.
I remember reading about this in either Coin World or Numismatic News back in the mid-1960s. I remember the article, which did state something very similar to the letter that Captn has posted. I also seem to remember that there was nothing definite that could be documented and that any release of the dollars was 100% speculation. Even then, there was no proof in either direction.
Do the archives for CW & NN go back that far and are they accessible?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I remember reading about this in either Coin World or Numismatic News back in the mid-1960s. I remember the article, which did state something very similar to the letter that Captn has posted. I also seem to remember that there was nothing definite that could be documented and that any release of the dollars was 100% speculation. Even then, there was no proof in either direction.
Do the archives for CW & NN go back that far and are they accessible? >>
I would expect that Linda Hall library in KC has them.
I knew Dan Brown a bit, from when I first started traveling to coin shows in 1973, at Numismatics, Ltd.
( I worked at a large retail shop in '72).
Dan Brown was honest, straight, and as Tom said, had absolutely no reason to lie or exaggerate. He was one of those old-school honest people that you don't see today as often as we should
As far as getting 'inside the Sup's office', etc. - I can tell you that in addition to Tom's statement about being in the Denver Sup's office numerous times, it's a well-known fact that Harry Forman had an even better relationship with many employees at the Philadelphia Mint.
He had access, made strong relationships, had lunch with coin designers and other employees' over many decades, and developed good sources of information on numismatic issues and problems that happened at the Phila. Mint.
In the past ten years, I've been in some very interesting areas of the Phily and Denver Mints myself.
By the way, Harry Forman had lunch on a regular basis with some of the designers of the State Quarters that were based at the Philadelphia Mint, or visited there.
He had each of them sign 10 paper-wrapped rolls of state Quarters that THEY had designed.
I have 5 of each roll signed by the designer of that State's quarters - a cool numismatic grouping....(until he passed away about 10 years ago)
Just thought I'd add a bit to Dan Brown's rep.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>It's not like a unicorn or a leprechaun ... and there's no proof beyond the fact that they were all allegedly melted that would give me cause to believe any exist. I want to believe, but it's difficult after fifty years, with not even ONE surfacing. I can understand an employee taking it to the grave with them. >>
It took 75 years for the Switt family to come forward with their 1933 Double Eagles.
This may come across as very cynical, but if anyone had seen (or purchased outside the Mint) a 1964-D Peace Dollar, it would have been Dan Brown. As the most prominent coin dealer in the area, and as someone well-known to many people at the Denver Mint, who else would someone bring the coin to?
I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the letter or the account it contains, except the nagging thought that the person most likely to need a legitimate cover story for possessing one of those coins outside the Mint is the same person who wrote the letter.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I would expect that Linda Hall library in KC has them.
Cool. I may have to stop in over there when I'm in KC. As I recall, I think that the article would have been in Winter of 1965 or 1966. It may have been a letter to the editor, but it shouldn't be hard for me to locate.
Where's Linda Hall? I'm sure that I can find it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
When I saw the name "Harry Forman", I wondered who he was, if he was Harrison Forman, an American explorer and newspaperman who ventured into Tibet in the 1930's.
No.
Harry Forman was a Philadelphia coin dealer who had dealings with Israel Switt, of the 1933 double eagle gold coins.
If I recall correctly the '64-D dollars were quickly destroyed. As assurance that all were melted, the coins were weighed in bulk beforehand. Which opens the door to the possibility that old dollars might have been substituted for new ones.
Why weren't the coins checked and counted before melting? Too laborious? Or was it urgent to destroy them as quickly as possible for political reasons? Perhaps a shortage was suspected and that would be damaging?
If there are any out there it would be foolhardy to go public without assurance from the gov't that they would not be confiscated. I don't see it happening. Lance.
If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight?
<< <i>No doubt. Also remember that coin collecting mania was at its peak in the mid-60s. >>
Agreed. The late 50's and early 60's had a multitude of baby boomers with paper routes, and monthly collections were made by the delivery boy, in cash. This collecting of change (imagine what you would find in pocket change during this era), and having extra spending money turned many of those boys into coin collectors. When's the last time you paid a home delivery paperboy in cash? That is one big reason why there is a dwindling population of coin collectors that will never be fully replaced.
Mr. Browns' recollection of his personal conversation with Mrs. Miller contradicting the affidavit that all the coins were destroyed is another Paul Harvey "and Now, the Rest of the Story: moment. The preponderence of the circumstantial evidence and rumors that the affidavit may not be 100% true seems to me to have some credence, I'm in the '64 Peace dollars do exist today camp.
<< <i>When I saw the name "Harry Forman", I wondered who he was, if he was Harrison Forman, an American explorer and newspaperman who ventured into Tibet in the 1930's.
No.
Harry Forman was a Philadelphia coin dealer who had dealings with Israel Switt, of the 1933 double eagle gold coins.
>>
Many People had dealings with Harry Forman, just as many people had dealings with Israel Switt.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>So, I didn't read the letter but if its saying someone stole some 1964-d peace dollars, great. If one ever comes up, charge the person with receiving stolen property and quickly confiscate it and return to the rightful owner.
I don't see how Dcarr could have an agenda on something not existing. To me, if the owner/manufacturer says they don't exist, then everything regarding the coin is a moot point. Maybe someone in 1966 made one and decided to claim it as real and had some folks write letters saying a few were released. Would you put more credibility in some joe nobody's account than the owner/manufacturers?
As a collector, I sure wouldn't want to one something that can not me legitimized, ever. >>
I just bolded the important part of the quote above. You didn't read the letter, but you feel like commenting. The thread is ABOUT the letter......
As for the possible agenda, I felt the same way that the OP did when he say that comment...I agree there is a potential reason for carr to NOT want there to be true ones out there...then his would be much more likely to be deemed a counterfeit by the feds. If that is too hard to understand, then there is a lack of facing the truth.
As for credibility, reading many of the replies, and even not knowing Mr Dan Brown, I would put creditibility to the letter by the strength of the character witnesses.
Always interesting to see those that come out to attack and disparage threads, even when they have no pony in the race.....just the "fun" part of starting a thread online and opening up to people with nothing to add but criticism I guess.
On August 3, 1964, Congress passed legislation providing for the striking of 45,000,000 silver dollars. Coins, including the silver dollar, had become scarce due to hoarding as the price of silver rose past the point at which a silver dollar was worth more as bullion than as currency. The new pieces were intended to be used at Nevada casinos and elsewhere in the West where "hard money" was popular. Many in the numismatic press complained that the issue would only satisfy a small special interest, and would do nothing to alleviate the general coin shortage.[51] Much of the pressure for the coins to be struck was being applied by the Senate Majority Leader, Mike Mansfield (Democrat–Montana), who represented a state that heavily used silver dollars.[57] Preparations for the striking proceeded at a reluctant Mint Bureau. Some working dies had survived Sinnock's 1937 destruction order, but were found to be in poor condition, and Mint Assistant Engraver (later Chief Engraver) Frank Gasparro was authorized to produce new ones. Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies. The reverse dies all bore Denver mintmarks; as the coins were slated for circulation in the West, it was deemed logical to strike them nearby.[58]
In early 1965, Treasury Secretary C. Douglas Dillon wrote to President Lyndon Johnson, opposing the coin issue and pointing out that the pieces would be unlikely to circulate in Montana or anywhere else; they would simply be hoarded. Nevertheless, Dillon concluded that as Senator Mansfield insisted, the coins would have to be struck.[59] Dillon resigned on April 1; his successor, Henry H. Fowler, was immediately questioned by Mansfield about the dollars, and he assured the senator that things would be worked out to his satisfaction.[60] Mint Director Eva Adams hoped to avoid striking the silver dollars, but wanted to keep the $600,000 appropriated for that expense.[61] Senator Mansfield refused to consider any cancellation or delay and on May 12, 1965, the Denver Mint began trial strikes of the 1964-D Peace dollar[62]—the Mint had obtained congressional authorization to continue striking 1964-dated coins into 1965.[63]
The new pieces were publicly announced on May 15, 1965, and coin dealers immediately offered $7.50 each for them, ensuring that they would not circulate.[64] The public announcement prompted a storm of objections. Both the public and many congressmen saw the issue as a poor use of Mint resources at a time of severe coin shortages, which would only benefit coin dealers. On May 24, one day before a hastily called congressional hearing, Adams announced that the pieces were deemed trial strikes, never intended for circulation. The Mint later stated that 316,076 pieces had been struck; all were reported melted amid heavy security. To ensure that there would be no repetition, Congress inserted a provision in the Coinage Act of 1965 forbidding the coinage of silver dollars for five years. No 1964-D Peace dollars are known to exist in either public or private hands.[65] However, they have been privately restruck using unofficial dies and genuine, earlier-date Peace dollars.[66]
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature?
<< <i>So, I didn't read the letter but if its saying someone stole some 1964-d peace dollars, great. If one ever comes up, charge the person with receiving stolen property and quickly confiscate it and return to the rightful owner. >>
You probably should have read the letter. It says nothing about coins being stolen, but rather that they were legally purchased.
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
SHe did not give him an affidavit, it is only a letter. She finally came clean. >>
To clarify, The Superintendent of the Denver Mint made a verbal statement to Dan Brown.
Dan Brown summarized that verbal statement in a letter written to me.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>OK. Before this gets out of hand, from what I understand, coins that are minted MUST be counted AND accounted for before they ever get to the cashiers office for release.
As such, regardless of what Dan was told or believe's, there is just no way that the coins could have been counted, which the US Mint says never happened, and then have them released to the Cashier's Cage in a 5 hour time span. Or even an 8 hour time span. I'm just not buying what the printing of this letter is implying.
I also find it difficult to believe that Coin Dealers were granted access to the US Mint Superintendent's Office. Wouldn't that be an area thats restricted to the public? Even back then? I mean, "sitting in her office one day", sounds fairly casual and I'm sure that security at the US Mint wouldn't allow such a thing.
Tom, have you ever been in the superintendent's office? >>
This is my thinking as well.
"False Memory Syndrome" is fairly common. A year or more after the fact, somebody hearing talk about "1964" coins that were never released, remembers being able to buy two of the new (Kennedy) coins from the cashier. They put one and two together and relay a story about 1964 dollars being purchased. But it wasn't so. >>
You don't know that. That is merely your Opinion. And you have an agenda to uphold when it comes to the possible existence of Genuine 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
Oh jeez Tom. The last part of your statement defines your "agenda" now doesn't it?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>You don't know that. That is merely your Opinion. And you have an agenda to uphold when it comes to the possible existence of Genuine 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm curious, what "agenda" would that be ?
I'd like to see an orginal 1964 dollar come to light as much as any person. But I don't believe any survived. A belief is not the same thing as an agenda. Your "agenda" comment here implies an active effort to suppress the existence of original 1964 dollars. That claim is entirely unfounded and unwarranted ! If I had an original 1964 dollar, I would send to to PCGS so that everyone would know about it and examine it. That nobody has done this is a significant indication against the survival of any original 1964 dollars.
If anybody out there has an original 1964 dollar, send it to PCGS and prove me wrong. >>
Kinda like that 1974 Aluminum Cent? Hmmm?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>As for the possible agenda, I felt the same way that the OP did when he say that comment...I agree there is a potential reason for carr to NOT want there to be true ones out there...then his would be much more likely to be deemed a counterfeit by the feds. If that is too hard to understand, then there is a lack of facing the truth. >>
How would I possibly ever have any control over whether or not any original 1964 dollars turn up ?
Like I said, if any are out there, I hope one is sent to PCGS for authentication and imaging.
<< <i>If the letter is genuine and the dollars were available for purchase from 9am-2pm, meaning they were released, why would they be confiscated? Anyone know for sure if they'll be confiscated if brought out of hiding? What is the Mint's definition of released? Released means for circulation? Interesting letter CaptHenway, thanks for sharing it with us.
EDIT: One has to assume some escaped the Mint, especially after the recall was made. I certainly would have purchased the limit of two for sure. If the 64D Peace bucks are ever deemed legal to own, what will happen to the fantasy pieces many of us own? It's possible none have surfaced because of the consequences. The 10k reward isn't enough to shake em loose. >>
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Interesting letter. I have heard from reputable sources that the '64 D Peace Dollar does exist. I have never seen one, but enjoy the legend. Cheers, RickO >>
Without trying to sound smug, name your sources or else "reputable" has absolutely no meaning at all.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
My point was that I don't think the letter indicates that Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D. If he had, he would have known a letter of 100% hearsay would not serve any benefit if the government tried to seize a coin. Now if he had a 1964-D, and an affidavit from the mint director, he probably would have been fairly confident that he would prevail in a seizure action, with the burden being on the government. No having a formal statement indicates to me he didn't have a dog in the fight.
In the ended either the director lied in the initial affidavit, lied to Mr. Brown, or Mr. Brown fabricated the story. Any which way someone ain't telling the truth at some point. That the director would fudge on the front-end makes some sense given the ramifications.
QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day.
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
SHe did not give him an affidavit, it is only a letter. She finally came clean. >>
Yes. I know she did not give him one. The poster I cited asked why. She had already signed an official affidavit as part of her job that all were accounted for and destroyed.
If does. My first reading thought that there was a definitive statement that the coins weren't bagged and issued, but a second looks makes me think the "finished coins" language is a possible pregnant phrase giving them an out if some were sold.
<< <i>I knew Dan Brown a bit, from when I first started traveling to coin shows in 1973, at Numismatics, Ltd.
( I worked at a large retail shop in '72).
Dan Brown was honest, straight, and as Tom said, had absolutely no reason to lie or exaggerate. He was one of those old-school honest people that you don't see today as often as we should
As far as getting 'inside the Sup's office', etc. - I can tell you that in addition to Tom's statement about being in the Denver Sup's office numerous times, it's a well-known fact that Harry Forman had an even better relationship with many employees at the Philadelphia Mint.
He had access, made strong relationships, had lunch with coin designers and other employees' over many decades, and developed good sources of information on numismatic issues and problems that happened at the Phila. Mint.
In the past ten years, I've been in some very interesting areas of the Phily and Denver Mints myself.
By the way, Harry Forman had lunch on a regular basis with some of the designers of the State Quarters that were based at the Philadelphia Mint, or visited there.
He had each of them sign 10 paper-wrapped rolls of state Quarters that THEY had designed.
I have 5 of each roll signed by the designer of that State's quarters - a cool numismatic grouping....(until he passed away about 10 years ago)
Just thought I'd add a bit to Dan Brown's rep. >>
OK. Fine.
Now, how realistic is it to expect that a "new/old" dollar design would go from the coining press to the cashiers cage in 5 hours? Especially since the area where the coins were minted was not even the main productin floor but in a separate building known as the Tramway Building?
I think folks should read Roger's accounting of the 1964-D Peace Dollars in his book before giving any creedance to Dan Brown's letter as the statements "between the minting of the dollars in the morning and early afternoon, any employee could buy 2 dollars at the cashiers cage, including many whose work was done before 2:00 pm. At that time word came from Washington not to sell any dollars and if any had been sold, to get them back." (implying a one day, 5 hour window) are in direct conflict with with whats recorded during the "trial phase", which occured over multiple days, of the production of the Peace Dollars in 1965.
They hadn't made a dollar coin in 30 years. Those that did make the last of the Peace Dollars in 1935, had retired or simply were not around. Specs had to be set up. Processes had to be define and set up. During these phases, the coins simply were not available for release. They may have made it to the cashiers vault, as stated in the book, but certainly not to the stage were they "could" be released.
A few coins over the years have had questionable legality for ownership. They've also had questionable existances. BUT, in virtually EVERY case, the coins showed up rather quickly in the open market. Even the 1974 Aluminum Cent, whcih the Treasury has stated is illegal to own and would be confiscated, has shown up. Not in one place, but two separate locations.
I see absolutely no reason to believe that a 1964-D Peace Dollar exists. ANYWHERE. Simply because, if one did exist, .......................it would have surfaced by now.
Those that wish to believe that some did escape the strict processes at the US Mint can be categorized right up there with the BigFoot believers.
Well, actually, BigFoot does exist. But its a Monster Truck.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day. >>
My understanding is that there is not a single Mint employee who made a statement on the validity of this story while living. I agree this would make the story stronger but it seems like no one ever made such a statement. After the passing of both Mrs. Miller and Dan Brown, we now have this very interesting letter.
<< <i>Those that wish to believe that some did escape the strict processes at the US Mint can be categorized right up there with the BigFoot believers. >>
That is quite intolerant of you. You have every right to believe whatever Mr. Carr tells you. Why do you not recognize the right of other people to believe other things?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day. >>
My understanding is that there is not a single Mint employee who made a statement on the validity of this story while living. I agree this would make the story stronger but it seems like no one ever made such a statement. After the passing of both Mrs. Miller and Dan Brown, we now have this very interesting letter. >>
Do you mean in writing, or verbally? Coin World (Guest Commentary, late July or early August, 1996) has my report of the verbal conversation I had with a retired Denver Mint employee who confirmed the story. Mr. Brown's letter contains a report of a verbal conversation with the Superintendent of the Denver Mint confirming the story.
As to confirmation in writing, all we have in writing is the Mint's extraordinary affiidavits confirming that nothing did happen. No doubt they confirmed everything that did not happen in writing.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I wonder if the skeptics are confusing Dan Brown the coin dealer with Dan Brown the author... Bigfoot, mysterious coins, coverups... Sounds like a sequel to the Davinci Code in the making
Comments
I don't see how Dcarr could have an agenda on something not existing. To me, if the owner/manufacturer says they don't exist, then everything regarding the coin is a moot point. Maybe someone in 1966 made one and decided to claim it as real and had some folks write letters saying a few were released. Would you put more credibility in some joe nobody's account than the owner/manufacturers?
As a collector, I sure wouldn't want to one something that can not me legitimized, ever.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>If the letter is genuine and the dollars were available for purchase from 9am-2pm, meaning they were released, why would they be confiscated? Anyone know for sure if they'll be confiscated if brought out of hiding? What is the Mint's definition of released? Released means for circulation? Interesting letter CaptHenway, thanks for sharing it with us.
EDIT: One has to assume some escaped the Mint, especially after the recall was made. I certainly would have purchased the limit of two for sure. If the 64D Peace bucks are ever deemed legal to own, what will happen to the fantasy pieces many of us own? It's possible none have surfaced because of the consequences. The 10k reward isn't enough to shake em loose. >>
It's likely that someone would want some official assurance that they are indeed legal to own before ever revealing that they have any.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tom, have you ever been in the superintendent's office? >>
Several times, at Denver. >>
That's all well and good, but let's get right down to it-
Do you like movies about gladiators? You ever seen a grown man naked?
mrpotatoheadd---Please don't hijack this thread. I'm certain there are other web sites that cover these topics that you are apparently interested in.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Were the original dies destroyed? I assume they were.
Mebbe Bigfoot has the dollars in his yetibank...
<< <i>The fantasies won't cause a problem for the TPG's, the die characteristics of the DCarr ones are public info. Might be a problem with some top quality fakes. >>
Would the Government consider them to be counterfeits if a real one surfaced?
Jim
Do the archives for CW & NN go back that far and are they accessible?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I remember reading about this in either Coin World or Numismatic News back in the mid-1960s. I remember the article, which did state something very similar to the letter that Captn has posted. I also seem to remember that there was nothing definite that could be documented and that any release of the dollars was 100% speculation. Even then, there was no proof in either direction.
Do the archives for CW & NN go back that far and are they accessible? >>
I would expect that Linda Hall library in KC has them.
I first started traveling to coin shows
in 1973, at Numismatics, Ltd.
( I worked at a large retail shop in '72).
Dan Brown was honest, straight, and
as Tom said, had absolutely no reason
to lie or exaggerate. He was one of those
old-school honest people that you don't
see today as often as we should
As far as getting 'inside the Sup's office',
etc. - I can tell you that in addition to
Tom's statement about being in the Denver
Sup's office numerous times, it's a
well-known fact that Harry Forman had
an even better relationship with many
employees at the Philadelphia Mint.
He had access, made strong relationships,
had lunch with coin designers and other
employees' over many decades, and
developed good sources of information
on numismatic issues and problems that
happened at the Phila. Mint.
In the past ten years, I've been in some
very interesting areas of the Phily and
Denver Mints myself.
By the way, Harry Forman had lunch on
a regular basis with some of the designers
of the State Quarters that were based at
the Philadelphia Mint, or visited there.
He had each of them sign 10 paper-wrapped
rolls of state Quarters that THEY had designed.
I have 5 of each roll signed by the designer
of that State's quarters - a cool numismatic
grouping....(until he passed away about
10 years ago)
Just thought I'd add a bit to Dan Brown's rep.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>It's not like a unicorn or a leprechaun ... and there's no proof beyond the fact that they were all allegedly melted that would give me cause to believe any exist. I want to believe, but it's difficult after fifty years, with not even ONE surfacing. I can understand an employee taking it to the grave with them. >>
It took 75 years for the Switt family to come forward with their 1933 Double Eagles.
This may come across as very cynical, but if anyone had seen (or purchased outside the Mint) a 1964-D Peace Dollar, it would have been Dan Brown. As the most prominent coin dealer in the area, and as someone well-known to many people at the Denver Mint, who else would someone bring the coin to?
I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the letter or the account it contains, except the nagging thought that the person most likely to need a legitimate cover story for possessing one of those coins outside the Mint is the same person who wrote the letter.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Cool. I may have to stop in over there when I'm in KC. As I recall, I think that the article would have been in Winter of 1965 or 1966. It may have been a letter to the editor, but it shouldn't be hard for me to locate.
Where's Linda Hall? I'm sure that I can find it.
I knew it would happen.
an American explorer and newspaperman who ventured into Tibet in the 1930's.
No.
Harry Forman was a Philadelphia coin dealer who had dealings with Israel Switt,
of the 1933 double eagle gold coins.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
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Why weren't the coins checked and counted before melting? Too laborious? Or was it urgent to destroy them as quickly as possible for political reasons? Perhaps a shortage was suspected and that would be damaging?
If there are any out there it would be foolhardy to go public without assurance from the gov't that they would not be confiscated. I don't see it happening.
Lance.
<< <i>No doubt. Also remember that coin collecting mania was at its peak in the mid-60s. >>
Agreed. The late 50's and early 60's had a multitude of baby boomers with paper routes, and monthly collections were made by the delivery boy, in cash. This collecting of change (imagine what you would find in pocket change during this era), and having extra spending money turned many of those boys into coin collectors. When's the last time you paid a home delivery paperboy in cash? That is one big reason why there is a dwindling population of coin collectors that will never be fully replaced.
<< <i>When I saw the name "Harry Forman", I wondered who he was, if he was Harrison Forman,
an American explorer and newspaperman who ventured into Tibet in the 1930's.
No.
Harry Forman was a Philadelphia coin dealer who had dealings with Israel Switt,
of the 1933 double eagle gold coins.
Many People had dealings with Harry Forman, just as many people had dealings with Israel Switt.
<< <i>So, I didn't read the letter but if its saying someone stole some 1964-d peace dollars, great. If one ever comes up, charge the person with receiving stolen property and quickly confiscate it and return to the rightful owner.
I don't see how Dcarr could have an agenda on something not existing. To me, if the owner/manufacturer says they don't exist, then everything regarding the coin is a moot point. Maybe someone in 1966 made one and decided to claim it as real and had some folks write letters saying a few were released. Would you put more credibility in some joe nobody's account than the owner/manufacturers?
As a collector, I sure wouldn't want to one something that can not me legitimized, ever. >>
I just bolded the important part of the quote above. You didn't read the letter, but you feel like commenting. The thread is ABOUT the letter......
As for the possible agenda, I felt the same way that the OP did when he say that comment...I agree there is a potential reason for carr to NOT want there to be true ones out there...then his would be much more likely to be deemed a counterfeit by the feds. If that is too hard to understand, then there is a lack of facing the truth.
As for credibility, reading many of the replies, and even not knowing Mr Dan Brown, I would put creditibility to the letter by the strength of the character witnesses.
Always interesting to see those that come out to attack and disparage threads, even when they have no pony in the race.....just the "fun" part of starting a thread online and opening up to people with nothing to add but criticism I guess.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
On August 3, 1964, Congress passed legislation providing for the striking of 45,000,000 silver dollars. Coins, including the silver dollar, had become scarce due to hoarding as the price of silver rose past the point at which a silver dollar was worth more as bullion than as currency. The new pieces were intended to be used at Nevada casinos and elsewhere in the West where "hard money" was popular. Many in the numismatic press complained that the issue would only satisfy a small special interest, and would do nothing to alleviate the general coin shortage.[51] Much of the pressure for the coins to be struck was being applied by the Senate Majority Leader, Mike Mansfield (Democrat–Montana), who represented a state that heavily used silver dollars.[57] Preparations for the striking proceeded at a reluctant Mint Bureau. Some working dies had survived Sinnock's 1937 destruction order, but were found to be in poor condition, and Mint Assistant Engraver (later Chief Engraver) Frank Gasparro was authorized to produce new ones. Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies. The reverse dies all bore Denver mintmarks; as the coins were slated for circulation in the West, it was deemed logical to strike them nearby.[58]
In early 1965, Treasury Secretary C. Douglas Dillon wrote to President Lyndon Johnson, opposing the coin issue and pointing out that the pieces would be unlikely to circulate in Montana or anywhere else; they would simply be hoarded. Nevertheless, Dillon concluded that as Senator Mansfield insisted, the coins would have to be struck.[59] Dillon resigned on April 1; his successor, Henry H. Fowler, was immediately questioned by Mansfield about the dollars, and he assured the senator that things would be worked out to his satisfaction.[60] Mint Director Eva Adams hoped to avoid striking the silver dollars, but wanted to keep the $600,000 appropriated for that expense.[61] Senator Mansfield refused to consider any cancellation or delay and on May 12, 1965, the Denver Mint began trial strikes of the 1964-D Peace dollar[62]—the Mint had obtained congressional authorization to continue striking 1964-dated coins into 1965.[63]
The new pieces were publicly announced on May 15, 1965, and coin dealers immediately offered $7.50 each for them, ensuring that they would not circulate.[64] The public announcement prompted a storm of objections. Both the public and many congressmen saw the issue as a poor use of Mint resources at a time of severe coin shortages, which would only benefit coin dealers. On May 24, one day before a hastily called congressional hearing, Adams announced that the pieces were deemed trial strikes, never intended for circulation. The Mint later stated that 316,076 pieces had been struck; all were reported melted amid heavy security. To ensure that there would be no repetition, Congress inserted a provision in the Coinage Act of 1965 forbidding the coinage of silver dollars for five years. No 1964-D Peace dollars are known to exist in either public or private hands.[65] However, they have been privately restruck using unofficial dies and genuine, earlier-date Peace dollars.[66]
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature?
<< <i>So, I didn't read the letter but if its saying someone stole some 1964-d peace dollars, great. If one ever comes up, charge the person with receiving stolen property and quickly confiscate it and return to the rightful owner. >>
You probably should have read the letter. It says nothing about coins being stolen, but rather that they were legally purchased.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
SHe did not give him an affidavit, it is only a letter. She finally came clean. >>
To clarify, The Superintendent of the Denver Mint made a verbal statement to Dan Brown.
Dan Brown summarized that verbal statement in a letter written to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>OK. Before this gets out of hand, from what I understand, coins that are minted MUST be counted AND accounted for before they ever get to the cashiers office for release.
As such, regardless of what Dan was told or believe's, there is just no way that the coins could have been counted, which the US Mint says never happened, and then have them released to the Cashier's Cage in a 5 hour time span. Or even an 8 hour time span. I'm just not buying what the printing of this letter is implying.
I also find it difficult to believe that Coin Dealers were granted access to the US Mint Superintendent's Office. Wouldn't that be an area thats restricted to the public? Even back then? I mean, "sitting in her office one day", sounds fairly casual and I'm sure that security at the US Mint wouldn't allow such a thing.
Tom, have you ever been in the superintendent's office? >>
This is my thinking as well.
"False Memory Syndrome" is fairly common. A year or more after the fact, somebody hearing talk about "1964" coins that were never released, remembers being able to buy two of the new (Kennedy) coins from the cashier. They put one and two together and relay a story about 1964 dollars being purchased. But it wasn't so. >>
You don't know that. That is merely your Opinion. And you have an agenda to uphold when it comes to the possible existence of Genuine 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
Oh jeez Tom. The last part of your statement defines your "agenda" now doesn't it?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>You don't know that. That is merely your Opinion. And you have an agenda to uphold when it comes to the possible existence of Genuine 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm curious, what "agenda" would that be ?
I'd like to see an orginal 1964 dollar come to light as much as any person. But I don't believe any survived. A belief is not the same thing as an agenda. Your "agenda" comment here implies an active effort to suppress the existence of original 1964 dollars. That claim is entirely unfounded and unwarranted ! If I had an original 1964 dollar, I would send to to PCGS so that everyone would know about it and examine it. That nobody has done this is a significant indication against the survival of any original 1964 dollars.
If anybody out there has an original 1964 dollar, send it to PCGS and prove me wrong. >>
Kinda like that 1974 Aluminum Cent? Hmmm?
The name is LEE!
If this 1996 letter is it, then it loses some credibility since it was already 30 years after the fact at the time it was written.
PS:
I'm not necessarily saying that Dan Brown was in error. I'm saying that the person who told Dan Brown this story may have been mistaken.
<< <i>As for the possible agenda, I felt the same way that the OP did when he say that comment...I agree there is a potential reason for carr to NOT want there to be true ones out there...then his would be much more likely to be deemed a counterfeit by the feds. If that is too hard to understand, then there is a lack of facing the truth. >>
How would I possibly ever have any control over whether or not any original 1964 dollars turn up ?
Like I said, if any are out there, I hope one is sent to PCGS for authentication and imaging.
<< <i>If the letter is genuine and the dollars were available for purchase from 9am-2pm, meaning they were released, why would they be confiscated? Anyone know for sure if they'll be confiscated if brought out of hiding? What is the Mint's definition of released? Released means for circulation? Interesting letter CaptHenway, thanks for sharing it with us.
EDIT: One has to assume some escaped the Mint, especially after the recall was made. I certainly would have purchased the limit of two for sure. If the 64D Peace bucks are ever deemed legal to own, what will happen to the fantasy pieces many of us own? It's possible none have surfaced because of the consequences. The 10k reward isn't enough to shake em loose. >>
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Interesting letter. I have heard from reputable sources that the '64 D Peace Dollar does exist. I have never seen one, but enjoy the legend. Cheers, RickO >>
Without trying to sound smug, name your sources or else "reputable" has absolutely no meaning at all.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
My point was that I don't think the letter indicates that Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D. If he had, he would have known a letter of 100% hearsay would not serve any benefit if the government tried to seize a coin. Now if he had a 1964-D, and an affidavit from the mint director, he probably would have been fairly confident that he would prevail in a seizure action, with the burden being on the government. No having a formal statement indicates to me he didn't have a dog in the fight.
In the ended either the director lied in the initial affidavit, lied to Mr. Brown, or Mr. Brown fabricated the story. Any which way someone ain't telling the truth at some point. That the director would fudge on the front-end makes some sense given the ramifications.
QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Mr. Brown possessed a 1964-D dollar the letter would do nothing to authenticate the release. If he was friendly with the super. won't he have had an affidavit from her with this story if he had an actual dog in the fight? >>
Why would she give him an affidavit that was contrary to one on which she put her signature? >>
SHe did not give him an affidavit, it is only a letter. She finally came clean. >>
Yes. I know she did not give him one. The poster I cited asked why. She had already signed an official affidavit as part of her job that all were accounted for and destroyed.
<< <i>The 1973 doc sure reads like a CYA, no? >>
If does. My first reading thought that there was a definitive statement that the coins weren't bagged and issued, but a second looks makes me think the "finished coins" language is a possible pregnant phrase giving them an out if some were sold.
<< <i>I knew Dan Brown a bit, from when
I first started traveling to coin shows
in 1973, at Numismatics, Ltd.
( I worked at a large retail shop in '72).
Dan Brown was honest, straight, and
as Tom said, had absolutely no reason
to lie or exaggerate. He was one of those
old-school honest people that you don't
see today as often as we should
As far as getting 'inside the Sup's office',
etc. - I can tell you that in addition to
Tom's statement about being in the Denver
Sup's office numerous times, it's a
well-known fact that Harry Forman had
an even better relationship with many
employees at the Philadelphia Mint.
He had access, made strong relationships,
had lunch with coin designers and other
employees' over many decades, and
developed good sources of information
on numismatic issues and problems that
happened at the Phila. Mint.
In the past ten years, I've been in some
very interesting areas of the Phily and
Denver Mints myself.
By the way, Harry Forman had lunch on
a regular basis with some of the designers
of the State Quarters that were based at
the Philadelphia Mint, or visited there.
He had each of them sign 10 paper-wrapped
rolls of state Quarters that THEY had designed.
I have 5 of each roll signed by the designer
of that State's quarters - a cool numismatic
grouping....(until he passed away about
10 years ago)
Just thought I'd add a bit to Dan Brown's rep. >>
OK. Fine.
Now, how realistic is it to expect that a "new/old" dollar design would go from the coining press to the cashiers cage in 5 hours? Especially since the area where the coins were minted was not even the main productin floor but in a separate building known as the Tramway Building?
I think folks should read Roger's accounting of the 1964-D Peace Dollars in his book before giving any creedance to Dan Brown's letter as the statements "between the minting of the dollars in the morning and early afternoon, any employee could buy 2 dollars at the cashiers cage, including many whose work was done before 2:00 pm. At that time word came from Washington not to sell any dollars and if any had been sold, to get them back." (implying a one day, 5 hour window) are in direct conflict with with whats recorded during the "trial phase", which occured over multiple days, of the production of the Peace Dollars in 1965.
They hadn't made a dollar coin in 30 years. Those that did make the last of the Peace Dollars in 1935, had retired or simply were not around. Specs had to be set up. Processes had to be define and set up. During these phases, the coins simply were not available for release. They may have made it to the cashiers vault, as stated in the book, but certainly not to the stage were they "could" be released.
A few coins over the years have had questionable legality for ownership. They've also had questionable existances. BUT, in virtually EVERY case, the coins showed up rather quickly in the open market. Even the 1974 Aluminum Cent, whcih the Treasury has stated is illegal to own and would be confiscated, has shown up. Not in one place, but two separate locations.
I see absolutely no reason to believe that a 1964-D Peace Dollar exists. ANYWHERE. Simply because, if one did exist, .......................it would have surfaced by now.
Those that wish to believe that some did escape the strict processes at the US Mint can be categorized right up there with the BigFoot believers.
Well, actually, BigFoot does exist. But its a Monster Truck.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day. >>
My understanding is that there is not a single Mint employee who made a statement on the validity of this story while living. I agree this would make the story stronger but it seems like no one ever made such a statement. After the passing of both Mrs. Miller and Dan Brown, we now have this very interesting letter.
<< <i>Those that wish to believe that some did escape the strict processes at the US Mint can be categorized right up there with the BigFoot believers. >>
That is quite intolerant of you. You have every right to believe whatever Mr. Carr tells you. Why do you not recognize the right of other people to believe other things?
<< <i>
<< <i>QUESTION - Did any mint employees, at any time, state they purchased a 1964-D and subsequently returned it? If this in fact happened I'd think it would have been known at the time and would majorly strengthen the case of having some escape. It sounds like this whole ordeal was publicized enough that this would have been fleshed out back in the day. >>
My understanding is that there is not a single Mint employee who made a statement on the validity of this story while living. I agree this would make the story stronger but it seems like no one ever made such a statement. After the passing of both Mrs. Miller and Dan Brown, we now have this very interesting letter. >>
Do you mean in writing, or verbally? Coin World (Guest Commentary, late July or early August, 1996) has my report of the verbal conversation I had with a retired Denver Mint employee who confirmed the story. Mr. Brown's letter contains a report of a verbal conversation with the Superintendent of the Denver Mint confirming the story.
As to confirmation in writing, all we have in writing is the Mint's extraordinary affiidavits confirming that nothing did happen. No doubt they confirmed everything that did not happen in writing.
I wonder if the skeptics are confusing Dan Brown the coin dealer with Dan Brown the author... Bigfoot, mysterious coins, coverups... Sounds like a sequel to the Davinci Code in the making