<< <i>The bottom line is there probably hasn't been a coin leave the mint since 1913 that was stolen other than a lot of error coins (and some '73 steel cents if the terms are loosely defined). >>
<< <i>The bottom line is there probably hasn't been a coin leave the mint since 1913 that was stolen other than a lot of error coins (and some '73 steel cents if the terms are loosely defined). >>
So some have been stolen......
and it is only and totally error coins ?? >>
Yes. So far as I know the only successful thefts from the mint were coins being smuggled out in the mid-60's in the crankcases of forklifts. When the machines went for service the coins were removed. I believe this was the San Francisco mint however.
I might have this a little confused but as I remember the coins were errors and the thefts continued for some time. It's believed the safety deposit box full of oddities like the two tails (1965) clad dime was involved but last I heard they were still afloat.
The way the mint claims gold and silver are easily stolen one would think visitors are lifting it from unlocked closets.
I've heard of a lot of first hand reports of seeing these coins. Unfortunately, all but one of these was a second hand report and the exception might have been unreliable. So long as the mint has a feud with 1933 $20, 1974 1c, and 1964 $1 none are likely to surface. Every- one hates moderns but known thefts like 1913 nickels and 1804 dollars are OK by the mint.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments?
(Edited to add: Mr. Burdette has provided the very useful information ATS that 1964-D Peace dollars were struck in varying quantities between May 13 and May 24 of 1965.)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments? >>
I think I read somewhere that the fastest service the Post Office had back then was call "Air Mail". Considering this was from a Government agency (the US Mint) and postage was free using the US Mail, I doubt that they used the brown truck to ship to Washington.
Maybe some of the old farts on here can remember if "Air Mail" was what was used back then
<< <i>I wonder if Mr. Lantz would remember if they were ever made available for purchase. >>
That would be an interesting question to ask, but I do not know if I could trust his answer. He may be speaking from "False Memory Syndrome."
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>In all fairness, think about the 1933 Saint. I seriously doubt anyone thought that 10 would have been switched and placed in a SDB, but it happened.
It seems possible - even probable and the odds seem to favor that one employee bought one, possibly two 1964-D Peace Dollars and kept them. The coins could have been sold or even rest in a SDB waiting to be found again- stranger things have happened. >>
The thing about the DEs is that there were already a number of 33 DEs traced to Switt in the 30s/40s so if more showed up, it's not that surprising there would be a connection to Switt.
For the 64Ds, there were none confirmed in unofficial hands.
Interesting discussion ATS with comments by RWB. I do miss his knowledgeable comments on Mint policies and practices on these boards but it's certainly nice to see his continued presence on the net.
There are two more pages in the 1964-D entry following this one.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
And this letter was written MANY years after the fact. What is the earliest WRITTEN account of the story regarding Mint employees' opportunity to purchase 1964 dollars ?
PS: I too, as a young coin collector, visited Dan Brown's coin ship in downtown Denver in the early 1970s. >>
So far the earliest written account that I can find is Q. David Bowers' silver dollar book, where he tells of his own conversation with Dan Brown concerning Brown's conversation with Fern Miller (see link above.)
Not sure of the publication date on the book (mine is packed for the move), but I read galleys on that book in 1992.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Facinating thread and thank you for the pertinant contributions- from several fronts! CaptHenway foremost! Just catching up after being out of the Country for a bit and wanted to throw my two cents in.
It's my feeling that there are indeed a few of those coins in existence. And given the example of the '33 Saints and what's transpired relating to those, I think that anyone with a 64 Peace in their possession would be taking a significantly outweighed risk in going public with their prize at this time. If I had one in my possession, I sure wouldn't and I'm not among the most saavy OR brilliant of legal minds.
However, as having been benificiary of more than one of my dearly departed friends and relatives estates, i might remind some on here that there are some folks out there that never marry, have children or raise families and thus have not shared their history and personal stories with others. Some may have lived rich and full lives and shared their lifes experiences, travels and wisdom with a niece or nephew, or perhaps a close friend. When they pass, the benificaries are sometimes left with an enormous and sometimes disorganized volume of material to sort out. Sometimes people have artifacts and outright junk spread throughout several different locations and safe deposit boxes! Sometimes, they bury hoards under the ground or hide them elsewhere and not tell anyone! Speaking from personal experience and once again very recently having lost a somewhat 'distant' but in other ways 'very close' relative and having the combined misfortune of their loss along with the task of sorting out their lifes artifacts.... I am reminded by the several boxes that currently await me, that there are sometimes treasures hidden among the rubble....and sometimes.... there isn't anyone left to go through the stuff and it gets misplaced, put aside, and perhaps forgotten.
Perhaps some of these coins are tucked away in a drawer or box and forgotten because 'that' mint employee happened to be a somewhat introverted individual without family and a hoarder on top of that!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
what basis is there to say "more at woodstock than really there?" Sounds like urban legend.
as far as four decimal places versus two, they are not weighing single coins are they? They are weighing pounds and pounds of these at a time. asking for four decimal places on something that has many more 0's on the other side of the decimal is just overkill. The end result was the aggregate of the weight and questioning if that is within acceptable tolerances of what raw material went into the process.
The real point is the weight of the coins and blanks melted equalling the weight of the bars is bad math. Everyone knows there is scrap from punching, etc.
I will note that 2,700 x .0099 = 26.73g or the weight of one coin. So, one coin could be "lifted" if 2,700 weighings were under by .0099 each.
There was a seemingly well-researched article regarding the 1964-D Peace dollars in the November 14, 1990 issue of Coin World. Another article by dealer Bob Cohen, who had placed ads in 1973 to buy a 1964-D dollar, appeared in the September 27, 1993 Coin World. Between the 2 articles, I have extracted the following information.
Walter Breen wrote in his Complete Encyclopedia of U. S. and Colonial Coins that Fern Miller told Dan Brown that various Mint employees had each purchased two of the new dollars. The trial strikes were sold on the first day of striking, May 15, 1965, but recalled the following day. No record was kept of sales or returns. Breen's book was published 8 years before Dan Brown's letter to Captain Henway was written, so Dan was consistent with his story. The Treasury order to strike the coins was reversed on May 24. By that time aproximately 316,076 coins had been struck, with 30 reserved for assay. 28 were soon destroyed, and the remaining 2 remained at the Mint's testing laboratory in Washington, D.C. until the early 1970's, when they were destroyed. The total number of coins was approximate because they never reached the stage of being counted, which is the final stage before being bagged and sent to the cashier.
Former Mint Director Eva Adams wrote to dealer Abe Kossoff in 1975 that the production of the 1964 Peace dollar was "a comedy of errors". All of the coins were considered trial strikes, to test die life and coin appearance, among other things. According to Adams, Mint personnel were well aware of the danger of any coins escaping, and the entire lot was secured in locked containers in Coining Room vaults, and was "subjected to a special security accountability" before being delivered for remelting. Adams wrote "You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens, still under rigid Mint (government) control. These went to the Technical Division of the Mint, for possible future use as an aid to the Secret Service IF ever coins, alleged to be some of tese experimental strikes, were submitted to the Secret Service."
Adams made no mention of the 30 assay pieces, but they were likely melted with the large lot. She refuted any rumors that LBJ had been presented a coin.
The Denver Mint based the estimate of 316,076 coins based on a per coin weight of 26.73 grams, not an actual count of coins. What is the likelihood of a Mint employee substituting a common dollar for a 64-D before they were melted? I'd say the odds are good that that happened.
<< <i>There was a seemingly well-researched article regarding the 1964-D Peace dollars in the November 14, 1990 issue of Coin World. Another article by dealer Bob Cohen, who had placed ads in 1973 to buy a 1964-D dollar, appeared in the September 27, 1993 Coin World. Between the 2 articles, I have extracted the following information.
Walter Breen wrote in his Complete Encyclopedia of U. S. and Colonial Coins that Fern Miller told Dan Brown that various Mint employees had each purchased two of the new dollars. The trial strikes were sold on the first day of striking, May 15, 1965, but recalled the following day. No record was kept of sales or returns. Breen's book was published 8 years before Dan Brown's letter to Captain Henway was written, so Dan was consistent with his story. The Treasury order to strike the coins was reversed on May 24. By that time aproximately 316,076 coins had been struck, with 30 reserved for assay. 28 were soon destroyed, and the remaining 2 remained at the Mint's testing laboratory in Washington, D.C. until the early 1970's, when they were destroyed. The total number of coins was approximate because they never reached the stage of being counted, which is the final stage before being bagged and sent to the cashier.
Former Mint Director Eva Adams wrote to dealer Abe Kossoff in 1975 that the production of the 1964 Peace dollar was "a comedy of errors". All of the coins were considered trial strikes, to test die life and coin appearance, among other things. According to Adams, Mint personnel were well aware of the danger of any coins escaping, and the entire lot was secured in locked containers in Coining Room vaults, and was "subjected to a special security accountability" before being delivered for remelting. Adams wrote "You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens, still under rigid Mint (government) control. These went to the Technical Division of the Mint, for possible future use as an aid to the Secret Service IF ever coins, alleged to be some of tese experimental strikes, were submitted to the Secret Service."
Adams made no mention of the 30 assay pieces, but they were likely melted with the large lot. She refuted any rumors that LBJ had been presented a coin.
The Denver Mint based the estimate of 316,076 coins based on a per coin weight of 26.73 grams, not an actual count of coins. What is the likelihood of a Mint employee substituting a common dollar for a 64-D before they were melted? I'd say the odds are good that that happened.
Jim >>
Who was the author of the 1990 Coin World article?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented, but rumors spread that Superintendent Miller had permitted Mint employees to acquire examples at face val ue, and, despite her re - quest and guarantee that all be returned, not all were. Adams was called before a government committee to testify on the matter. Under oath, Adams insisted that “all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"?
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented, but rumors spread that Superintendent Miller had permitted Mint employees to acquire examples at face val ue, and, despite her re - quest and guarantee that all be returned, not all were. Adams was called before a government committee to testify on the matter. Under oath, Adams insisted that “all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"? >>
from what I recall in a past thread on thse, the two turned up some time after that testimony.
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments?
(Edited to add: Mr. Burdette has provided the very useful information ATS that 1964-D Peace dollars were struck in varying quantities between May 13 and May 24 of 1965.) >>
Comments?? Absolutely.
Michael Lantz's account kinda blows a big ole hole in Dan Browns letter now doesn't it?
Additionally, the Tramway Bldg had one way in and one way out. The dollars were minted during a setup phase and as such, were not delivered to the counting area nor the cashier's cage.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>from what I recall in a past thread on thse, the two turned up some time after that testimony. >>
That's what I recall, too.
So- if Adams' testimony was wrong about the two that turned up later, isn't it possible she was also wrong about the "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens" statement?
edited to add... Unless someone did a visual date check/count of every coin, there is no way to make the claim that "all were melted" and expect that it is true.
<< <i>hey... how can RWB say that the Mint is perfect at accounting for everything? >>
Obviously not true: According to Coin World December 26, 2011 article, the Mint has written off $82,215 that was either lost or stolen through coin exchange programs at their headquarters in Washington DC.
If their records and security procedures are that lax in 2011, how good could they have been in 1965, or 1933 for that matter?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ? Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars.
<< <i>So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ? Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
Why do you say circa 1980?
How late was Fern Miller Superintendent at the Denver Mint? My handy dandy Coin World Almanac is packed away, or I could look it up there.
Mr. Brown says that he had his conversation with her in her office, and since I am unaware that she pursued any career after her Superintendency, I would assume that that conversation was at her office at the Denver Mint.
That question settled, to my satisfaction at least, I rather doubt that Mrs. Miller would have had that conversation with Mr. Brown after the coverup was imposed. That would put the more likely date of the conversation at 1965, though like you I have no proof of when it did take place.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> Michael Lantz's account kinda blows a big ole hole in Dan Browns letter now doesn't it? >>
That entirely depends on which one of them was telling the truth.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented, but rumors spread that Superintendent Miller had permitted Mint employees to acquire examples at face val ue, and, despite her re - quest and guarantee that all be returned, not all were. Adams was called before a government committee to testify on the matter. Under oath, Adams insisted that “all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"? >>
Does anybody have a proper citation for this fragment?
Does anybody have access to her testimony before "a government committee?" Any idea which committee? A date?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ? Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
What a joke
Are you for real
You answered your own first question, the ORIGINAL US MINT source was Fern Miller - Superintendent at the Denver Mint, to the statement "that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars"
Not sure were you come up with the “15 years after the fact” comment.
The thesis you try to put forth doesn’t pass the “smell test” regarding your observation:
<< <i> Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
When Fern Miller relayed her insight on the subject matter to Mr. Brown about the events that took place, she may not have been “intimately familiar with collector coins” but as the Superintendent of the facility I’m pretty sure she knew the difference between a one dollar coin and a half dollar. Also, as Superintendent, Fern Miller would have a broader view of the entire operations going on at the Mint then just a common labor.
<< <i> So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ? Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
What a joke
Are you for real >>
Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ?
<< <i>You answered your own first question, the ORIGINAL US MINT source was Fern Miller - Superintendent at the Denver Mint, to the statement "that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars" >>
My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ?
<< <i>Not sure were you come up with the “15 years after the fact” comment. >>
Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15.
<< <i>The thesis you try to put forth doesn’t pass the “smell test” regarding your observation:
<< <i>Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
When Fern Miller relayed her insight on the subject matter to Mr. Brown about the events that took place, she may not have been “intimately familiar with collector coins” but as the Superintendent of the facility I’m pretty sure she knew the difference between a one dollar coin and a half dollar. Also, as Superintendent, Fern Miller would have a broader view of the entire operations going on at the Mint then just a common labor. >>
The details that I could find on the internet regarding Fern Miller are sketchy. If what I did find was accurate, Fern Miller was listed in a 1910 census. So she would have been born in or before 1910. She was appointed Denver Mint superidendent in 1961. I could not find any information on how long she served in that capacity. In 1981, Nora Walsh Hussey was appointed Denver Mint Superindendent. If there were no other superintendents between Miller and Hussey, then Miller would have served until about 1980. One obituary reported that Fern Miller died in 1981.
So the facts are:
In 1996 Dan Brown said that Fern Miller (prior to 1981) had said that employees could buy two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were minted. If Dan Brown was not mistaken, and Fern Miller did make that remark, she could have been 70 years old, or older at the time (and she may have only lived to be 71). So the letter that Dan Brown wrote was at least 15 years after Miller allegedly told this story, and Miller's account could have been up to 15 years after the fact as well. How old was Dan Brown at the time ?
In 1973, the official US Treasury statement indicated that none of the coins were released to the Mint cashier (and as such, none could have been purchased by employees).
In 2012, former Denver Mint Foreman Lantz's statement confirms the official Treasury account and contradicts the Miller/Brown account.
Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony.
Fern Miller appeared on What's My Line on June 28, 1964:
What's My Line? #719 (735) June 28, 1964 Francis, Tony Randall, Kilgallen, Cerf, Daly N. E. Skinner (Washes Bulls) Fern V. Miller (Superintendent of U.S. Mint, Denver, CO)
Game 2: Mrs. Fern V. Miller (11/29/1892 - 2/1981) - "Superintendent of U.S. Mint, Denver, CO" (salaried; Fern Miller was appointed by then-President John F. Kennedy in May 1961; she donated her game winnings to the Kennedy Library; from Platteville, CO)
So she would have been 72½ years old when the Peace dollars were struck, not exactly a spring chicken. It's still unclear as to when she told Dan Brown about Mint employees being able to purchase 64-D dollars, or what her state of mind may have been at the time.
<< <i>So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ? Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
Why do you say circa 1980?
How late was Fern Miller Superintendent at the Denver Mint? My handy dandy Coin World Almanac is packed away, or I could look it up there.
Mr. Brown says that he had his conversation with her in her office, and since I am unaware that she pursued any career after her Superintendency, I would assume that that conversation was at her office at the Denver Mint.
That question settled, to my satisfaction at least, I rather doubt that Mrs. Miller would have had that conversation with Mr. Brown after the coverup was imposed. That would put the more likely date of the conversation at 1965, though like you I have no proof of when it did take place. >>
According to the most excellent Coin World Almanac, Miller served as superintendent from May 19, 1961, to July 31, 1967.
So, a conversation in her office at the Denver Mint would have taken place no later than July 31, 1967, not 15 years after the fact.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ? >>
Really, it is a shame that you can’t.
<< <i> My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ? >>
Yes, I saw the question mark, but the answer to the question was still within, Fern Miller, and you knew it.
<< <i> Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15. >>
Yes, the state of our education system isn’t totally in the toilet yet but the math I was taught is (1965 + y = x). I use y because it is unknown when Fern Miller told Mr. Brown and that would determine what x would be. I’m still not sure about your fuzzy math and how you arrived at 15.
<< <i> Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony. >>
Some will always blindly follow the Government story. Which version of the Treasury “testimony” (story) are you going with; 1) 1965 – all 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? or 2) 1970 – Now the remanding 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed?
<< <i> Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ? >>
Really, it is a shame that you can’t.
<< <i> My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ? >>
Yes, I saw the question mark, but the answer to the question was still within, Fern Miller, and you knew it. >>
I said "apparently" because it was unknown to me if anyone else who was actually there other than Fern Miller had told this story. And I also wrote "1980 ?" because it is still unknown exactly when Miller relayed this account to Brown.
<< <i>
<< <i> Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15. >>
Yes, the state of our education system isn’t totally in the toilet yet but the math I was taught is (1965 + y = x). I use y because it is unknown when Fern Miller told Mr. Brown and that would determine what x would be. I’m still not sure about your fuzzy math and how you arrived at 15.
<< <i> Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony. >>
Some will always blindly follow the Government story. Which version of the Treasury “testimony” (story) are you going with; 1) 1965 – all 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? or 2) 1970 – Now the remanding 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? >>
I don't follow anything blindly, including the Brown/Miller account. The government statement I refer to was published in 1973. That seems to be the final word on the subject, and has been confirmed by Mint Forman Lantz.
Do you even know for sure that the 1964 dollars that were destroyed in 1970 in Philadelphia (or Washington DC) were Denver Mint products ? Were there any Philadelphia trial strikes produced without a mint mark ?
Based on information posted by Cocoinut and CaptHenway, here are the known facts (and my conclusion) :
In 1996 Dan Brown said that Fern Miller had said that employees could buy two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were minted. If Dan Brown was not mistaken, and Fern Miller did make that remark while they were in her office, and the office Brown referred to was her office inside the Denver Mint, then this would have been about 1966 and she would have been about 74 years old at the time (she eventually lived to be about 89). So the letter that Dan Brown wrote was probably about 30 years after Miller allegedly told this story. How old was Dan Brown at the time ?
In 1973, the official US Treasury statement indicated that none of the coins were released to the Mint cashier (and as such, none could have been purchased by employees).
In 2012, former Denver Mint Foreman Lantz's statement confirms the official Treasury account and contradicts the Miller/Brown account.
Lacking any additional evidence, I'm still going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony.
Now Dan, don't go practicing ageism. It is beneath you.
So what if Mrs. Miller was in her early to mid-70's in 1965? Some people are sharp as a tack in their 80's. Some people are fools at a much younger age.
As to Mr. Brown, how old was he when he told the story to Q. David Bowers? How old was he when he told the story to Walter Breen?
I have an aunt who just turned 96. When I saw her last Fall at a family gathering, I asked her about the house that she and my mother lived in back in the 1920's. She gave me the address and the nearest intersection.
Stick with facts, or opinions, but please stay away from slurs.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Now Dan, don't go practicing ageism. It is beneath you.
So what if Mrs. Miller was in her early to mid-70's in 1965? Some people are sharp as a tack in their 80's. Some people are fools at a much younger age.
As to Mr. Brown, how old was he when he told the story to Q. David Bowers? How old was he when he told the story to Walter Breen?
I have an aunt who just turned 96. When I saw her last Fall at a family gathering, I asked her about the house that she and my mother lived in back in the 1920's. She gave me the address and the nearest intersection.
Stick with facts, or opinions, but please stay away from slurs.
TD >>
30 years is a long time for recollections to change. But my main point is, we have no way to verify for certain that Brown correctly understood what Miller said in 1966. I'm certainly not saying that Miller was mentally lacking. Nor am I saying that about Brown. But we are getting the story second-hand, after a lot of time had passed, and so there could have been an unintentional miscommunication along the way. Note that we have retired Mint Foreman Lantz's story first-hand (via the video), and he seems entirely cognizant of the events.
But it appears that one account is in error. Either it is the reported Miller/Brown account, or the Lantz account. The Lantz (2012) and Treasury (1973) accounts are first-hand, so that is why I am inclined to go with those.
<< <i>...we have no way to verify for certain that Brown correctly understood what Miller said in 1966...But we are getting the story second-hand, after a lot of time had passed, ....Note that we have retired Mint Foreman Lantz's story first-hand (via the video), and he seems entirely cognizant of the events. >>
Not to split hairs here, but isn't Mr. Browns' letter sent to CH, the contents which personally recollect his conversation with Ms. Miller in her office a first hand account?
Comments
<< <i>The bottom line is there probably hasn't been a coin leave the mint since 1913 that was stolen other
than a lot of error coins (and some '73 steel cents if the terms are loosely defined). >>
So some have been stolen......
and it is only and totally error coins ??
<< <i>
<< <i>The bottom line is there probably hasn't been a coin leave the mint since 1913 that was stolen other
than a lot of error coins (and some '73 steel cents if the terms are loosely defined). >>
So some have been stolen......
and it is only and totally error coins ?? >>
Yes. So far as I know the only successful thefts from the mint were coins being smuggled
out in the mid-60's in the crankcases of forklifts. When the machines went for service the
coins were removed. I believe this was the San Francisco mint however.
I might have this a little confused but as I remember the coins were errors and the thefts
continued for some time. It's believed the safety deposit box full of oddities like the two tails
(1965) clad dime was involved but last I heard they were still afloat.
The way the mint claims gold and silver are easily stolen one would think visitors are lifting
it from unlocked closets.
I've heard of a lot of first hand reports of seeing these coins. Unfortunately, all but one of
these was a second hand report and the exception might have been unreliable. So long as
the mint has a feud with 1933 $20, 1974 1c, and 1964 $1 none are likely to surface. Every-
one hates moderns but known thefts like 1913 nickels and 1804 dollars are OK by the mint.
What Really Happened to the 1964 Denver Mint Peace Dollars?
<< <i>Lantz discusses in an ANA Money show 2012 Coinweek vid, it's all melted -
What Really Happened to the 1964 Denver Mint Peace Dollars? >>
That link does not work for me.
...didn't LBJ get one of these
<< <i>
<< <i>Lantz discusses in an ANA Money show 2012 Coinweek vid, it's all melted -
What Really Happened to the 1964 Denver Mint Peace Dollars? >>
That link does not work for me. >>
I probably screwed it up -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1DZbVBVHpcw
...linkified
<< <i>...linkified >>
Thank you. That is VERY interesting.
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments?
(Edited to add: Mr. Burdette has provided the very useful information ATS that 1964-D Peace dollars were struck in varying quantities between May 13 and May 24 of 1965.)
<< <i>
<< <i>...linkified >>
Thank you. That is VERY interesting.
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments? >>
I think I read somewhere that the fastest service the Post Office had back then was call "Air Mail". Considering this was from a Government agency (the US Mint) and postage was free using the US Mail, I doubt that they used the brown truck to ship to Washington.
Maybe some of the old farts on here can remember if "Air Mail" was what was used back then
<< <i>I wonder if Mr. Lantz would remember if they were ever made available for purchase. >>
That would be an interesting question to ask, but I do not know if I could trust his answer. He may be speaking from "False Memory Syndrome."
<< <i>.................call me a fool!
.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder if Mr. Lantz would remember if they were ever made available for purchase. >>
That would be an interesting question to ask, but I do not know if I could trust his answer. He may be speaking from "False Memory Syndrome." >>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>In all fairness, think about the 1933 Saint. I seriously doubt anyone thought that 10 would have been switched and placed in a SDB, but it happened.
It seems possible - even probable and the odds seem to favor that one employee bought one, possibly two 1964-D Peace Dollars and kept them. The coins could have been sold or even rest in a SDB waiting to be found again- stranger things have happened. >>
The thing about the DEs is that there were already a number of 33 DEs traced to Switt in the 30s/40s so if more showed up, it's not that surprising there would be a connection to Switt.
For the 64Ds, there were none confirmed in unofficial hands.
<< <i>I wonder if Mr. Lantz would remember if they were ever made available for purchase. >>
I believe Mr. Lantz is on record saying none were available for sale.
link
There are two more pages in the 1964-D entry following this one.
<< <i>
And this letter was written MANY years after the fact.
What is the earliest WRITTEN account of the story regarding Mint employees' opportunity to purchase 1964 dollars ?
PS:
I too, as a young coin collector, visited Dan Brown's coin ship in downtown Denver in the early 1970s. >>
So far the earliest written account that I can find is Q. David Bowers' silver dollar book, where he tells of his own conversation with Dan Brown concerning Brown's conversation with Fern Miller (see link above.)
Not sure of the publication date on the book (mine is packed for the move), but I read galleys on that book in 1992.
TD
Just catching up after being out of the Country for a bit and wanted to throw my two cents in.
It's my feeling that there are indeed a few of those coins in existence.
And given the example of the '33 Saints and what's transpired relating to those, I think that anyone with a 64 Peace in their possession would be taking a significantly outweighed risk in going public with their prize at this time. If I had one in my possession, I sure wouldn't and I'm not among the most saavy OR brilliant of legal minds.
However, as having been benificiary of more than one of my dearly departed friends and relatives estates, i might remind some on here that there are some folks out there that never marry, have children or raise families and thus have not shared their history and personal stories with others. Some may have lived rich and full lives and shared their lifes experiences, travels and wisdom with a niece or nephew, or perhaps a close friend. When they pass, the benificaries are sometimes left with an enormous and sometimes disorganized volume of material to sort out. Sometimes people have artifacts and outright junk spread throughout several different locations and safe deposit boxes! Sometimes, they bury hoards under the ground or hide them elsewhere and not tell anyone! Speaking from personal experience and once again very recently having lost a somewhat 'distant' but in other ways 'very close' relative and having the combined misfortune of their loss along with the task of sorting out their lifes artifacts.... I am reminded by the several boxes that currently await me, that there are sometimes treasures hidden among the rubble....and sometimes.... there isn't anyone left to go through the stuff and it gets misplaced, put aside, and perhaps forgotten.
Perhaps some of these coins are tucked away in a drawer or box and forgotten because 'that' mint employee happened to be a somewhat introverted individual without family and a hoarder on top of that!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I can only argue relatively negligible things.
what basis is there to say "more at woodstock than really there?" Sounds like urban legend.
as far as four decimal places versus two, they are not weighing single coins are they? They are weighing pounds and pounds of these at a time. asking for four decimal places on something that has many more 0's on the other side of the decimal is just overkill. The end result was the aggregate of the weight and questioning if that is within acceptable tolerances of what raw material went into the process.
The real point is the weight of the coins and blanks melted equalling the weight of the bars is bad math. Everyone knows there is scrap from punching, etc.
I will note that 2,700 x .0099 = 26.73g or the weight of one coin. So, one coin could be "lifted" if 2,700 weighings were under by .0099 each.
Walter Breen wrote in his Complete Encyclopedia of U. S. and Colonial Coins that Fern Miller told Dan Brown that various Mint employees had each purchased two of the new dollars. The trial strikes were sold on the first day of striking, May 15, 1965, but recalled the following day. No record was kept of sales or returns. Breen's book was published 8 years before Dan Brown's letter to Captain Henway was written, so Dan was consistent with his story. The Treasury order to strike the coins was reversed on May 24. By that time aproximately 316,076 coins had been struck, with 30 reserved for assay. 28 were soon destroyed, and the remaining 2 remained at the Mint's testing laboratory in Washington, D.C. until the early 1970's, when they were destroyed. The total number of coins was approximate because they never reached the stage of being counted, which is the final stage before being bagged and sent to the cashier.
Former Mint Director Eva Adams wrote to dealer Abe Kossoff in 1975 that the production of the 1964 Peace dollar was "a comedy of errors". All of the coins were considered trial strikes, to test die life and coin appearance, among other things. According to Adams, Mint personnel were well aware of the danger of any coins escaping, and the entire lot was secured in locked containers in Coining Room vaults, and was "subjected to a special security accountability" before being delivered for remelting. Adams wrote "You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens, still under rigid Mint (government) control. These went to the Technical Division of the Mint, for possible future use as an aid to the Secret Service IF ever coins, alleged to be some of tese experimental strikes, were submitted to the Secret Service."
Adams made no mention of the 30 assay pieces, but they were likely melted with the large lot. She refuted any rumors that LBJ had been presented a coin.
The Denver Mint based the estimate of 316,076 coins based on a per coin weight of 26.73 grams, not an actual count of coins. What is the likelihood of a Mint employee substituting a common dollar for a 64-D before they were melted? I'd say the odds are good that that happened.
Jim
<< <i>There was a seemingly well-researched article regarding the 1964-D Peace dollars in the November 14, 1990 issue of Coin World. Another article by dealer Bob Cohen, who had placed ads in 1973 to buy a 1964-D dollar, appeared in the September 27, 1993 Coin World. Between the 2 articles, I have extracted the following information.
Walter Breen wrote in his Complete Encyclopedia of U. S. and Colonial Coins that Fern Miller told Dan Brown that various Mint employees had each purchased two of the new dollars. The trial strikes were sold on the first day of striking, May 15, 1965, but recalled the following day. No record was kept of sales or returns. Breen's book was published 8 years before Dan Brown's letter to Captain Henway was written, so Dan was consistent with his story. The Treasury order to strike the coins was reversed on May 24. By that time aproximately 316,076 coins had been struck, with 30 reserved for assay. 28 were soon destroyed, and the remaining 2 remained at the Mint's testing laboratory in Washington, D.C. until the early 1970's, when they were destroyed. The total number of coins was approximate because they never reached the stage of being counted, which is the final stage before being bagged and sent to the cashier.
Former Mint Director Eva Adams wrote to dealer Abe Kossoff in 1975 that the production of the 1964 Peace dollar was "a comedy of errors". All of the coins were considered trial strikes, to test die life and coin appearance, among other things. According to Adams, Mint personnel were well aware of the danger of any coins escaping, and the entire lot was secured in locked containers in Coining Room vaults, and was "subjected to a special security accountability" before being delivered for remelting. Adams wrote "You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens, still under rigid Mint (government) control. These went to the Technical Division of the Mint, for possible future use as an aid to the Secret Service IF ever coins, alleged to be some of tese experimental strikes, were submitted to the Secret Service."
Adams made no mention of the 30 assay pieces, but they were likely melted with the large lot. She refuted any rumors that LBJ had been presented a coin.
The Denver Mint based the estimate of 316,076 coins based on a per coin weight of 26.73 grams, not an actual count of coins. What is the likelihood of a Mint employee substituting a common dollar for a 64-D before they were melted? I'd say the odds are good that that happened.
Jim >>
Who was the author of the 1990 Coin World article?
The 1990 Coin World article was written by Paul Gilkes.
Jim
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
what video, did i miss something? >>
On page 8 near the bottom. Video of Mr. Lantz
<< <i>
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented,
but rumors spread that Superintendent
Miller had permitted Mint
employees to acquire
examples at face val ue,
and, despite her re -
quest and guarantee
that all be returned,
not all were. Adams
was called before a
government committee
to testify on the matter. Under
oath, Adams insisted that “all produced
coins were accounted for and
melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented,
but rumors spread that Superintendent
Miller had permitted Mint
employees to acquire
examples at face val ue,
and, despite her re -
quest and guarantee
that all be returned,
not all were. Adams
was called before a
government committee
to testify on the matter. Under
oath, Adams insisted that “all produced
coins were accounted for and
melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"? >>
from what I recall in a past thread on thse, the two turned up some time after that testimony.
<< <i>.................call me a fool!
Me Too!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>...linkified >>
Thank you. That is VERY interesting.
According to Mr. Lantz they began striking the 1964-D Peace dollars on a certain date, sent some to Washington as per S.O.P., and continued striking dollars for an unknown number of days until the first day's examples reached Washington and got noticed.
Therefore, the number of calendar days that the coins were in existence and could (hypothetically) have been sold to employees or otherwise distributed is at least two, even if they overnighted them to Washington. (Does anybody know if the capacity to overnight anything existed in May of 1965?)
If sent via Registered Mail on "Day A," I would expect the package to arrive in Washington no earlier than "Day C," assuming that "Day A" was early in the week and no weekend intervened. That would make three calendar days that the coins were in existence, with nobody in the Denver Mint apparently having any reason to believe that there was anything special about them, other than that they were dollars and that they were cool enough for one employee to show them off to another.
Comments?
(Edited to add: Mr. Burdette has provided the very useful information ATS that 1964-D Peace dollars were struck in varying quantities between May 13 and May 24 of 1965.) >>
Comments?? Absolutely.
Michael Lantz's account kinda blows a big ole hole in Dan Browns letter now doesn't it?
Additionally, the Tramway Bldg had one way in and one way out. The dollars were minted during a setup phase and as such, were not delivered to the counting area nor the cashier's cage.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>from what I recall in a past thread on thse, the two turned up some time after that testimony. >>
That's what I recall, too.
So- if Adams' testimony was wrong about the two that turned up later, isn't it possible she was also wrong about the "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens" statement?
edited to add... Unless someone did a visual date check/count of every coin, there is no way to make the claim that "all were melted" and expect that it is true.
call me a fool...
anything is possible
<< <i>hey... how can RWB say that the Mint is perfect at accounting for everything? >>
Obviously not true: According to Coin World December 26, 2011 article, the Mint has written off $82,215 that was either lost or stolen through coin exchange programs at their headquarters in Washington DC.
If their records and security procedures are that lax in 2011, how good could they have been in 1965, or 1933 for that matter?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars.
<< <i>So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ?
Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
Why do you say circa 1980?
How late was Fern Miller Superintendent at the Denver Mint? My handy dandy Coin World Almanac is packed away, or I could look it up there.
Mr. Brown says that he had his conversation with her in her office, and since I am unaware that she pursued any career after her Superintendency, I would assume that that conversation was at her office at the Denver Mint.
That question settled, to my satisfaction at least, I rather doubt that Mrs. Miller would have had that conversation with Mr. Brown after the coverup was imposed. That would put the more likely date of the conversation at 1965, though like you I have no proof of when it did take place.
<< <i>
Michael Lantz's account kinda blows a big ole hole in Dan Browns letter now doesn't it?
>>
That entirely depends on which one of them was telling the truth.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You can believe me that ever possible care was taken to assure that NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens >>
That video directly contradicts this statement by Adams. >>
I can no longer find the issue online but in a previous post, I copy&pasted this from an article in the Numismatist:
Her order was implemented,
but rumors spread that Superintendent
Miller had permitted Mint
employees to acquire
examples at face val ue,
and, despite her re -
quest and guarantee
that all be returned,
not all were. Adams
was called before a
government committee
to testify on the matter. Under
oath, Adams insisted that “all produced
coins were accounted for and
melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- which Adams statement is true- "none were preserved" or "NONE did leave the Mint, except for two specimens"? >>
Does anybody have a proper citation for this fragment?
Does anybody have access to her testimony before "a government committee?" Any idea which committee? A date?
<< <i> So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ?
Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
What a joke
Are you for real
You answered your own first question, the ORIGINAL US MINT source was Fern Miller - Superintendent at the Denver Mint, to the statement "that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars"
Not sure were you come up with the “15 years after the fact” comment.
The thesis you try to put forth doesn’t pass the “smell test” regarding your observation:
<< <i> Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
When Fern Miller relayed her insight on the subject matter to Mr. Brown about the events that took place, she may not have been “intimately familiar with collector coins” but as the Superintendent of the facility I’m pretty sure she knew the difference between a one dollar coin and a half dollar. Also, as Superintendent, Fern Miller would have a broader view of the entire operations going on at the Mint then just a common labor.
<< <i>
<< <i> So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ?
Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
What a joke
Are you for real
Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ?
<< <i>You answered your own first question, the ORIGINAL US MINT source was Fern Miller - Superintendent at the Denver Mint, to the statement "that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars" >>
My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ?
<< <i>Not sure were you come up with the “15 years after the fact” comment. >>
Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15.
<< <i>The thesis you try to put forth doesn’t pass the “smell test” regarding your observation:
<< <i>Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
When Fern Miller relayed her insight on the subject matter to Mr. Brown about the events that took place, she may not have been “intimately familiar with collector coins” but as the Superintendent of the facility I’m pretty sure she knew the difference between a one dollar coin and a half dollar. Also, as Superintendent, Fern Miller would have a broader view of the entire operations going on at the Mint then just a common labor. >>
The details that I could find on the internet regarding Fern Miller are sketchy. If what I did find was accurate, Fern Miller was listed in a 1910 census. So she would have been born in or before 1910. She was appointed Denver Mint superidendent in 1961. I could not find any information on how long she served in that capacity. In 1981, Nora Walsh Hussey was appointed Denver Mint Superindendent. If there were no other superintendents between Miller and Hussey, then Miller would have served until about 1980. One obituary reported that Fern Miller died in 1981.
So the facts are:
In 1996 Dan Brown said that Fern Miller (prior to 1981) had said that employees could buy two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were minted. If Dan Brown was not mistaken, and Fern Miller did make that remark, she could have been 70 years old, or older at the time (and she may have only lived to be 71). So the letter that Dan Brown wrote was at least 15 years after Miller allegedly told this story, and Miller's account could have been up to 15 years after the fact as well. How old was Dan Brown at the time ?
In 1973, the official US Treasury statement indicated that none of the coins were released to the Mint cashier (and as such, none could have been purchased by employees).
In 2012, former Denver Mint Foreman Lantz's statement confirms the official Treasury account and contradicts the Miller/Brown account.
Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony.
What's My Line? #719 (735) June 28, 1964
Francis, Tony Randall, Kilgallen, Cerf, Daly
N. E. Skinner (Washes Bulls)
Fern V. Miller (Superintendent of U.S. Mint, Denver, CO)
Game 2: Mrs. Fern V. Miller (11/29/1892 - 2/1981) - "Superintendent of U.S. Mint, Denver, CO" (salaried; Fern Miller was appointed by then-President John F. Kennedy in May 1961; she donated her game winnings to the Kennedy Library; from Platteville, CO)
So she would have been 72½ years old when the Peace dollars were struck, not exactly a spring chicken. It's still unclear as to when she told Dan Brown about Mint employees being able to purchase 64-D dollars, or what her state of mind may have been at the time.
Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>So who was the ORIGINAL US Mint source for the story that employees could purchase two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were struck ?
Apparently, it was Fern Miller, circa 1980 ? This would be 15 years after the fact. Realize that, by that time, both dollar coins and half dollar coins were somewhat unusual in circulation. I suspect that it would have been easy for a person who is not intimately familiar with collector coins, to confuse recollections of half dollars and dollars. >>
Why do you say circa 1980?
How late was Fern Miller Superintendent at the Denver Mint? My handy dandy Coin World Almanac is packed away, or I could look it up there.
Mr. Brown says that he had his conversation with her in her office, and since I am unaware that she pursued any career after her Superintendency, I would assume that that conversation was at her office at the Denver Mint.
That question settled, to my satisfaction at least, I rather doubt that Mrs. Miller would have had that conversation with Mr. Brown after the coverup was imposed. That would put the more likely date of the conversation at 1965, though like you I have no proof of when it did take place. >>
According to the most excellent Coin World Almanac, Miller served as superintendent from May 19, 1961, to July 31, 1967.
So, a conversation in her office at the Denver Mint would have taken place no later than July 31, 1967, not 15 years after the fact.
<< <i>
Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ? >>
Really, it is a shame that you can’t.
<< <i> My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ? >>
Yes, I saw the question mark, but the answer to the question was still within, Fern Miller, and you knew it.
<< <i> Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15. >>
Yes, the state of our education system isn’t totally in the toilet yet but the math I was taught is (1965 + y = x). I use y because it is unknown when Fern Miller told Mr. Brown and that would determine what x would be. I’m still not sure about your fuzzy math and how you arrived at 15.
<< <i> Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony. >>
Some will always blindly follow the Government story. Which version of the Treasury “testimony” (story) are you going with; 1) 1965 – all 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? or 2) 1970 – Now the remanding 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed?
<< <i>
<< <i>
Next time, can you try and maintain a professional attitude ? >>
Really, it is a shame that you can’t.
<< <i> My second sentence was not an answer, it was a second question. Did you see the "?" mark ? >>
Yes, I saw the question mark, but the answer to the question was still within, Fern Miller, and you knew it.
I said "apparently" because it was unknown to me if anyone else who was actually there other than Fern Miller had told this story. And I also wrote "1980 ?" because it is still unknown exactly when Miller relayed this account to Brown.
<< <i>
<< <i> Do you know math ? 1980 - 1965 = 15. >>
Yes, the state of our education system isn’t totally in the toilet yet but the math I was taught is (1965 + y = x). I use y because it is unknown when Fern Miller told Mr. Brown and that would determine what x would be. I’m still not sure about your fuzzy math and how you arrived at 15.
<< <i> Lacking any additional evidence, I'm going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony. >>
Some will always blindly follow the Government story. Which version of the Treasury “testimony” (story) are you going with; 1) 1965 – all 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? or 2) 1970 – Now the remanding 1964-D Peace dollars have been destroyed? >>
I don't follow anything blindly, including the Brown/Miller account. The government statement I refer to was published in 1973. That seems to be the final word on the subject, and has been confirmed by Mint Forman Lantz.
Do you even know for sure that the 1964 dollars that were destroyed in 1970 in Philadelphia (or Washington DC) were Denver Mint products ?
Were there any Philadelphia trial strikes produced without a mint mark ?
Based on information posted by Cocoinut and CaptHenway, here are the known facts (and my conclusion) :
In 1996 Dan Brown said that Fern Miller had said that employees could buy two of the 1964 dollars on the day they were minted. If Dan Brown was not mistaken, and Fern Miller did make that remark while they were in her office, and the office Brown referred to was her office inside the Denver Mint, then this would have been about 1966 and she would have been about 74 years old at the time (she eventually lived to be about 89). So the letter that Dan Brown wrote was probably about 30 years after Miller allegedly told this story. How old was Dan Brown at the time ?
In 1973, the official US Treasury statement indicated that none of the coins were released to the Mint cashier (and as such, none could have been purchased by employees).
In 2012, former Denver Mint Foreman Lantz's statement confirms the official Treasury account and contradicts the Miller/Brown account.
Lacking any additional evidence, I'm still going with the Treasury/Lantz testimony.
So what if Mrs. Miller was in her early to mid-70's in 1965? Some people are sharp as a tack in their 80's. Some people are fools at a much younger age.
As to Mr. Brown, how old was he when he told the story to Q. David Bowers? How old was he when he told the story to Walter Breen?
I have an aunt who just turned 96. When I saw her last Fall at a family gathering, I asked her about the house that she and my mother lived in back in the 1920's. She gave me the address and the nearest intersection.
Stick with facts, or opinions, but please stay away from slurs.
TD
<< <i>Now Dan, don't go practicing ageism. It is beneath you.
So what if Mrs. Miller was in her early to mid-70's in 1965? Some people are sharp as a tack in their 80's. Some people are fools at a much younger age.
As to Mr. Brown, how old was he when he told the story to Q. David Bowers? How old was he when he told the story to Walter Breen?
I have an aunt who just turned 96. When I saw her last Fall at a family gathering, I asked her about the house that she and my mother lived in back in the 1920's. She gave me the address and the nearest intersection.
Stick with facts, or opinions, but please stay away from slurs.
TD >>
30 years is a long time for recollections to change. But my main point is, we have no way to verify for certain that Brown correctly understood what Miller said in 1966.
I'm certainly not saying that Miller was mentally lacking. Nor am I saying that about Brown. But we are getting the story second-hand, after a lot of time had passed, and so there could have been an unintentional miscommunication along the way. Note that we have retired Mint Foreman Lantz's story first-hand (via the video), and he seems entirely cognizant of the events.
But it appears that one account is in error. Either it is the reported Miller/Brown account, or the Lantz account.
The Lantz (2012) and Treasury (1973) accounts are first-hand, so that is why I am inclined to go with those.
<< <i>...we have no way to verify for certain that Brown correctly understood what Miller said in 1966...But we are getting the story second-hand, after a lot of time had passed, ....Note that we have retired Mint Foreman Lantz's story first-hand (via the video), and he seems entirely cognizant of the events. >>
Not to split hairs here, but isn't Mr. Browns' letter sent to CH, the contents which personally recollect his conversation with Ms. Miller in her office a first hand account?
That's how many 1964-Ds are in hiding!