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Is it worth 1 point downgrade to get a green sticker??
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Say from Pr65 down to Pr64.
Ed
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just wondering
What grade does the coin deserve?
Latin American Collection
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
To maximize the proceeds of the sale of a coin, it probably depends on the coin, who are the likely buyers, the price history of similar coins, whether there is legitimate concern for overgrading and doctoring in the series, and other factors. In general, I would expect that the higher grade on the holder carries the price (assuming the same brand holder).
<< <i>Is it worth 1 point downgrade to get a green sticker?? >>
The simplistic answer would be to check auction prices realized of non-CAC MS65 coins vs CAC 64's of the this type and see for yourself.
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Yes
<< <i> Personally I don't want overgraded lucky coins as a rule because it bothers my conscience to sell those coins when they may have hidden problems. >>
Why don't you just sell them for what they are worth and not worry about it. That's what I did when I got an over graded coin in a slab when I was dealer. I directed them to other dealers who bought them without a complaint. They made money, but what are you supposed to do, throw your money away on postage and fees because the grading company over graded it?
Honestly, a green bean won't necessarily guarantee that the coin is high end for its grade or even accurately graded---look at enough coins, and this will become self-evident.
I would not let the presence of a green CAC sticker be the prime determinant (go vs. no go) of a purchase decision.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
price. You could lose a little a bit or gain a little bit. If the coin in question is a PCGS PF65, then I wouldn't dare downgrade it for a sticker. If your NGC PF65 is a nice looking coin in
a high demand series, I'd probably investigate further avenues before accepting the downgrade. A drop to 64+ wouldn't be as severe. But there's no guarantee you get the plus. There
are exceptions to everything. But in general, this is how I would view things for a typical coin in the market. I'm of the opinion now that most anything nice in an NGC holder that
hasn't been altered (possible AT, etc.), that won't sticker, that won't cross, should probably be cracked out and tried a few times. If the coin is truly nice looking it will end up in the right holder and grade to realize fair market value.
<< <i>Personally I wont pay 65 money for a 64 with a green bean and I don't think many others will. >>
That's the point. Unstickered coins in 65 holders don't fetch decent 65 money either. And unstickered, non-PCGS coins in 65 holders....fetch 64 or 64+ money.
But no doubt, there are some 64 green stickered coins out there that I would gladly pay "65 money" for. They are definitely hard to come by. And determining
just what 65 money should be is where the arbitrage begins. Price guides tend to be less than useful in those rare situations. A lot of collectors on this forum proudly
display their newps where they paid multiple of price guide to get them (ie they paid 65 money for a 64 coin for instance).
Perhaps he collects coins, but wants them in the correct plastic.
<< <i>Personally I wont pay 65 money for a 64 with a green bean and I don't think many others will. >>
While I think things are begining to level out if you check past auction results many have paid 65 and beyond for beaned coins. As to the op's question it cannot be answered baised on this information alone, what the two coins look like is the only way to decide.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it worth 1 point downgrade to get a green sticker?? >>
The simplistic answer would be to check auction prices realized of non-CAC MS65 coins vs CAC 64's of the this type and see for yourself. >>
Wait...we can't let facts interfere with what we believe!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
IMHO do you know what "stickers" do? They thin perhaps the only true supply and demand equation "market" out there. The "sticker" thins the coin herd and "blah, blah, blah, blah........blah" comes out of the dealers mouth and you get less for your coin. Why because it is not one of the "stickers" market of "coins"
When does it ever end? A whole industry is created just to "cater to policing" coin grading. Nevermind that your 'stickered" plus signed starred, older holder, greenie holder, doily, is perceived to be more valuable. Jeez ........Warm Regards, Michael
Upon resubmission, it was awarded a gold sticker. I was pleased, and the coin is actually worth more now.
In your case, if the coin was not stickered in a 65 holder, then CAC didn't feel it was accurately graded at a 65 or it has a problem.
In some cases, dropping a grade will get the sticker, but you have to evaluate how the value of the coin will drop. Some coins have a HUGE spread between 64 and 65.
AJ
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Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>"Are you choosing between two coins as in one graded PR65 and the other PR64/CAC?"
Yes >>
Just read this. I'd buy the 64 CAC coin.
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I have a coin that was in a NGC holder with a green sticker. PCGS wouldn't cross it at the same grade, so I took the one lesser grade.
Upon resubmission, it was awarded a gold sticker. I was pleased, and the coin is actually worth more now. >>
Until the gold sticker price premium attains rational levels, anyway...
<< <i>The only place a green sticker matters is in a large, well-promoted online auction. PERIOD. >>
Not true. Period.
<< <i>In your case, if the coin was not stickered in a 65 holder, then CAC didn't feel it was accurately graded at a 65 or it has a problem. >>
This is not what CAC says on their webpage. They say that a coin that does not sticker may be accurately graded, but not an A or B coin. 65.0-65.3 wouldn't sticker while 65.4-65.9 would. Now, reality and what they say on the website might be entirely different. In the series that I'm most familiar with, I've decided that the folks at the bean factory prefer a certain look. The graders at PCGS have their standards and the guys ATS have theirs. IMO, all three are slightly different. Each weighs the various attributes of a coin a bit differently. In this series, PCGS seems to love a dipped, white coin just as much as an old one with original skin. CAC strongly favors the latter, etc., etc.
I try to remind myself that coins do not actually have a grade. They have a diameter, mass, date, and composition (all of which can be precisely quantified), but grade is not an inherent physical property that can be measured. It's subjective - sometimes VERY subjective. The prefered look-of-the-decade wanders around (ie freshly dipped vs. huge premium for toning).
With that in mind, what is your purpose in buying the coin? Some people here on the boards buy coins only to sell them. A few buy only to play the crackout/upgrade game. Some buy for the pure love of collecting. Others buy for collecting but with an eye slanted to investment potential. Ask your question of these four different groups and you'll get four different answers. From the answers in this thread it's pretty easy to pick out the dealers from the collectors.
If you're buying only for profit, a look at auction prices realized should easily answer your question for the particular coin in question. If you're buying for enjoyment, buy the coin you like better, assuming you feel the price is appropriate. If you're buying for investment and you don't already know the answer to your question you're probably fooling yourself.
Edited for clarity - I hope.
Very profound, and I agree. Coins do, however, have both a price and a value and in some way, the grade is a proxy or conversion factor for both...or either. It's a muddle, but I believe we tend to get too granular when discussing grading here. Of course, this forum is hosted by a grading company.
It is convenient to think that there should be a linear relationship between slab grade and quality, but in my experience, the slab grade tends to track more with price and may or may not track with quality.
<< <i>"Are you choosing between two coins as in one graded PR65 and the other PR64/CAC?"
Yes >>
Try this approach ... choose the coin that you like best.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>The only place a green sticker matters is in a large, well-promoted online auction. PERIOD. >>
I'm sorry, but this statement is patently false. There are a number of instances where I have stated that I would buy a certain coin IF IT STICKERS. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Therefore, the sticker matters at times other than what you asserted.
PERIOD.
1 The coin graded PR65 - did it fail CAC? If so why?
2 Which coin looked nicer, the PR64 or PR65
3 What was the pricing differential if any between the two?
There are still many coins that can be found at shows that can be plucked and stickered, even golden stickered.
If you are asking is it worth downgrading a coin (that fails stickering) one grade to get a sticker then I can offer my response if anyone cares to read my opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Are you choosing between two coins as in one graded PR65 and the other PR64/CAC?"
Yes >>
Just read this. I'd buy the 64 CAC coin. >>
What if it were a green CAC sticker on the 64 and it was priced the same as the 65?
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>After what Ankur mentioned, I wonder who was correct on the grade......NGC or PCGS? CAC said the NGC one got a green bean. It downgraded by a point and got a gold bean in the PCGS slab......hmmmmmm >>
It seems that CAC and NGC agreed in this case.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"Are you choosing between two coins as in one graded PR65 and the other PR64/CAC?"
Yes >>
Just read this. I'd buy the 64 CAC coin. >>
What if it were a green CAC sticker on the 64 and it was priced the same as the 65? >>
If the 65 had already been to CAC, I would buy the 64 CAC for the 65 price. There's a reason the 65 didn't pass, and one reason us that it was overgraded and is really a 64.
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>This thread confuses me.
1 The coin graded PR65 - did it fail CAC? If so why?
2 Which coin looked nicer, the PR64 or PR65
3 What was the pricing differential if any between the two?
There are still many coins that can be found at shows that can be plucked and stickered, even golden stickered.
If you are asking is it worth downgrading a coin (that fails stickering) one grade to get a sticker then I can offer my response if anyone cares to read my opinion. >>
That last sentence is what I thought the thread was about from the title,
then inside it turned into "which coin of the two would you buy" (I'd guess we're assuming same price" and a side thought of "which of the two would sell for more money"... my answer to both of these is "the one that looks better when viewed at arm's length"
I find the first question, is it worth resubmitting to get in a slab one grade lower to get it to sticker, more interesting, because it might depend on the coin.
a related question: would it ever be worth it to downgrade a coin a grade (or two!) to get a gold sticker?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>do you collect coins or plastic and stickers?
just wondering >>
excellent point.
Each purchase will be weighed individually but I am likely to choose similarly.
I would purchase the PR64CAC.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Coin A Looks low-end in multiple Heritage photos in a PCGS MS-63 holder
Advertised price-$3200
Coin B Looks nice in Heritage photos from recent auction in a PCGS MS-62 holder CAC-
I offered $2250
Coin C No photo in an NGC MS-62 holder
Advertised price $1700 (sight seen but no photo)
Based purely on the photos, the PCGS MS-62 CAC looks high-end, and the PCGS MS-63 looks low-end. Unless grades mean everything, and money means nothing, Coin B looks like the winner. Who knows, if you submitted A and B raw, maybe they would come back in the same grade holder, and maybe B would even come back in a higher grade holder.
I've noticed that too many people see coins without stickers and assume that automatically means the coin was tried and failed to get a sticker already and expect it to be discounted. Sure, that is the case sometimes, but not even close to the common scenario. To date, less than 500,000 coins have been given CAC stickers. Compare that with the over 50,000,000 coins certified by PCGS and NGC and that is less than one percent. Even if you factor in the coins that have been to CAC and failed to sticker it's only a few percent of the coins that are out there tops. That said, I have used CAC on occasion as I know it helps to sell certain coins for more as it can reassure some collectors that they really are buying decent coins. But it seems some here almost rely on these stickers exclusively and in doing so they are undoubtedly making some mistakes and missing out on some great coins.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I would never downgrade a coin just so it could get a green sticker. I would rather have a coin grading 65 than a 64 with a sticker any day (all else being equal). That's silly and can't think of any example where a coin in a grade higher would sell for less than a coin graded lower with a green sticker... all else being equal (no wild toning on one, or PL or other factor). I really thought this thread was a joke until I started reading some of the responses.
I've noticed that too many people see coins without stickers and assume that automatically means the coin was tried and failed to get a sticker already and expect it to be discounted. Sure, that is the case sometimes, but not even close to the common scenario. To date, less than 500,000 coins have been given CAC stickers. Compare that with the over 50,000,000 coins certified by PCGS and NGC and that is less than one percent. Even if you factor in the coins that have been to CAC and failed to sticker it's only a few percent of the coins that are out there tops. That said, I have used CAC on occasion as I know it helps to sell certain coins for more as it can reassure some collectors that they really are buying decent coins. But it seems some here almost rely on these stickers exclusively and in doing so they are undoubtedly making some mistakes and missing out on some great coins. >>
What if the World's Strongest Buyer (tm) only wants your coin if it stickers? He doesn't care the price and often pays significantly higher than anyone else in the market. Then what?
<< <i>
<< <i>I would never downgrade a coin just so it could get a green sticker. I would rather have a coin grading 65 than a 64 with a sticker any day (all else being equal). That's silly and can't think of any example where a coin in a grade higher would sell for less than a coin graded lower with a green sticker... all else being equal (no wild toning on one, or PL or other factor). I really thought this thread was a joke until I started reading some of the responses.
I've noticed that too many people see coins without stickers and assume that automatically means the coin was tried and failed to get a sticker already and expect it to be discounted. Sure, that is the case sometimes, but not even close to the common scenario. To date, less than 500,000 coins have been given CAC stickers. Compare that with the over 50,000,000 coins certified by PCGS and NGC and that is less than one percent. Even if you factor in the coins that have been to CAC and failed to sticker it's only a few percent of the coins that are out there tops. That said, I have used CAC on occasion as I know it helps to sell certain coins for more as it can reassure some collectors that they really are buying decent coins. But it seems some here almost rely on these stickers exclusively and in doing so they are undoubtedly making some mistakes and missing out on some great coins. >>
What if the World's Strongest Buyer (tm) only wants your coin if it stickers? He doesn't care the price and often pays significantly higher than anyone else in the market. Then what? >>
In that case, I would expect that he buy the coin from me as is and then I would help him downgrade it as low as it takes for it to then be worthy of a sticker. But only after it's his coin. I just can't see downgrading my own stuff and then hoping it is then ok for a sticker so I can sell to one client, regardless of who the client is. That said, my experience is in dealing with coins of much lower value than your piece of the market so that may be a factor too.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Sorry, but the World's Strongest Buyer (tm) won't take the chance that the coin will not sticker due to being doctored. He is willing to verbally say done deal contingent upon the sticker, tho. >>
After thinking about it more, if I were fortunate enough to have the "World's Strongest Buyer" as one of my clients I'd probably do just about anything within reason to keep that business
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"Are you choosing between two coins as in one graded PR65 and the other PR64/CAC?"
Yes >>
Just read this. I'd buy the 64 CAC coin. >>
What if it were a green CAC sticker on the 64 and it was priced the same as the 65? >>
If the 65 had already been to CAC, I would buy the 64 CAC for the 65 price. There's a reason the 65 didn't pass, and one reason us that it was overgraded and is really a 64. >>
The 65 in this case may very well be a 65, just a low end 65.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Sorry, but the World's Strongest Buyer (tm) won't take the chance that the coin will not sticker due to being doctored. He is willing to verbally say done deal contingent upon the sticker, tho. >>
What if the OP's question has nothing to do with whether or not a coin is doctored.....lets even assume the coins being discussed are not doctored at all but are all original......I would have to say it is not worth a point downgrade to get a green sticker.
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