Mastro pleads guilty (Wagner Card)

Will this hurt the vaue of the T206 Wagner?
Mastro
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Comments

  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    What about the company that said it was Nm-Mt?
    The card that made them they gave a # grade to the card. Thats what Im more worried about.


  • << <i>What about the company that said it was Nm-Mt?
    The card that made them they gave a # grade to the card. Thats what Im more worried about. >>



    My thoughts exactly.
    The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound...That is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

    -t206
    -e90-1
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  • I thought he had already said he trimmed it. Unless it was just well known, but he never publicly admitted it.
  • firedawg45firedawg45 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭
    Which company graded the card? And missed that?
    # 2 Pete Rose Master Set , also
    collecting 1977 topps baseball in psa 9 and psa 10
  • I believe that the issue is a seller not disclosing known alterations at sale is against the law. It's not illegal to alter something.
  • i started to type a comment then remembered i still have some packs in process and figured better to wait, assuming its the same company.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭
    my cards are juiced? no wonder they've been so moody lately.
    "I know this board has a tendency to sometimes go ballistic or act like two-day starved pirhana surrounding fresh meat flung into the water."
    ~DeutscherGeist~


  • << <i>Will this hurt the vaue of the T206 Wagner?
    Mastro >>



    Yes at least in the near term. I think the impact to the grader will be lesser if at all, but none of this is good for the industry for sure.
    Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
    1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
  • OAKESY25OAKESY25 Posts: 4,439 ✭✭✭
    wasn't this common knowledge?

    I know I read somewhere well before this that the grader knew it was trimmed.
    I don't think it will hurt the value of the card or grading.
    Grading has evolved greatly since then and that card has taken on a legend of its own.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭
    the speculation was already fresh the year they charged folks a couple bucks a head just to look at it during the National.

    should these people pursue a class action lawsuit to recover those funds?
    "I know this board has a tendency to sometimes go ballistic or act like two-day starved pirhana surrounding fresh meat flung into the water."
    ~DeutscherGeist~
  • You may be shocked to learn that some collectors and investors go by what is printed on the label. Yes, even with T206 Wagners.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭
    I don't think there will be any sort of repurcussion for the grading company - besides the current owner making a "PSA Guarantee" claim.

    But honestly, I doubt it.
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss


  • << <i>You may be shocked to learn that some collectors and investors buy for what's printed on the label. >>



    What? No way. No one does that. image
    My Giants collection want list

    WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
  • calaban7calaban7 Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭


    << <i>wasn't this common knowledge?

    I know I read somewhere well before this that the grader knew it was trimmed.
    I don't think it will hurt the value of the card or grading.
    Grading has evolved greatly since then and that card has taken on a legend of its own. >>



    What can be said that wasn't widely known ?---- Sonny
    " In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    If it was widely known why give the card a # grade then? Seems unfair to me.
  • It's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure.
  • ndleondleo Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭
    The value of the Wagner PSA 8 will decline by at least 50% after the plea is official.

    The other story about fake GU jersey cards is also interesting. I guess there is reason why Topps is so stingy with the good GU jersey and autos.
    Mike
  • how will this affect psa as a whole?
  • stownstown Posts: 11,636
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • 70ToppsFanatic70ToppsFanatic Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭
    The affect on the grading company will ultimately depend on how they handle it.

    If they try to maintain a low profile and ignore the fact that they effectively "missed" this one, there will be hell to pay. Better to take
    the approach that J&J did with the Tylenol problem in the 80s and proactively address the issue. In the long run it will serve to add
    confidence about the integrity of the grader.


    Dave
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    from what they have done in the past. I think they will ignore it.
    But who knows. This is the #1 card in the hobby with their name on it.


  • << <i>IBTP >>



    Yup could be next!
  • Bad, very very bad. Proves it's all just a grading farce. Bummer. I wonder if any of the graded cards are actually graded properly. What I buy from some not to be mentioned places, is it true they get more generous grades than others. This is a bummer.
    Watch It Kid
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,081 ✭✭✭
    IWDMBII
    Some people are like slinkies..Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you push one down a flight of stairs.

    yup
  • The card is still the best looking Wags in the hobby. The owner of it has the first say. If he doesn't want to do anything then nothing will happen, except to the person pleading guilty (and as stated, it's not criminal to alter, it's criminal to defraud) to fraud, if that is how it finalizes. I think there is a good argument that the value of the card is not affected. There is also an argument that it is affected. It was always rumored to have issues and I just don't think this potential plea changes much. All of this is just my semi-educated opinion and debatable.
    Leon Luckey
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    I agree. But what is the job of the grading company at this point now? Seems odd that it has a number grade is how I feel.
  • I may be way off base on this, but I thought the card was cut from a sheet and trimmed to proper size and that was known by PSA before grading. They made an exception for this card, as they do for other very rare items.

    Is it possible the added recognition could raise the value?

    I would think that the 2nd highest graded Wagner, I beleive is the one known as "Jumbo" could now boast being the best and it's value could really rise?
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    " They made an exception "

    Did they/company say this when they graded the card? Not on the case. But if they said this then they are in the clear in my eyes. But I havent heard the/company say this. Ive heard others but not the company that graded it unaltered and

    "A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse."
  • addicted2ebayaddicted2ebay Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭
    From the book "The Card"

    "The Card" quotes Bill Hughes, a member of the grading service team that issued the card's high grade - Professional Sports Authenticator gave it a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10 - as admitting he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded it. "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.
    Yes, I am on ebay right now.
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    Do they stand by Hughes at this point?
    I also heard hughes retracted that quote I thought?
  • This probably won't be the solution but I have argued that this card SHOULD be an exception and should have (Handcut) on the flip, if what is coming out holds true, ALONG with the numerical grade. That would make it correct albeit an exception. Just my argument and it didn't go too well for me on another board I frequent, although, if I remember correctly around 25%-30% of respondents thought it was a good idea.
    Leon Luckey
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a good Idea. But when we are talking about Millions of dollars/graders reputation on one transaction. Seems strange to make this situation the way it is from day one. Now decades later there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Best thing I think should be done is the company buys the card back.
  • A lot of people try to pass recolored, trimmed, or altered cards pass the experts at PSA. PSA does
    their best, but they can't catch them all.

    Who cares if the Wagner is trimmed. Find me a better one, then it will make a difference. But for now, the card is a piece of art, and
    it was trimmed very well. Just place an asterik by it, it's still a beauty.


  • << <i>Sounds like a good Idea. But when we are talking about Millions of dollars/graders reputation on one transaction. Seems strange to make this situation the way it is from day one. Now decades later there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Best thing I think should be done is the company buys the card back. >>



    After speaking with many experienced hobby folks there really is no way of knowing if the value has gone down. I am not sure it has and neither is anyone else. Again, these are just my opinions.
    Leon Luckey
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    "A lot of people try to pass recolored, trimmed, or altered cards pass the experts at PSA. PSA does
    their best, but they can't catch them all."

    If they try their best to catch the fakes but there is always an unknown/known exception. Then what is the point?
    And saying it understood that it was an exception doesnt speak for everyone. They have standords I thought. Maybe they need to be rewrote.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭
    The owner of the card would never let it be reholdered.

    From what I understood, PSA knew the card was sheet cut and made an exception (like previously said). It's understandable why they wouldn't put "trimmed" or "authentic" on the slab but they still needed it to stand out as not a "normal" card (hence the 00000001 serial number).
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • gemintgemint Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭
    Didn't one of the previous owners of the card vigorously defend the card as unaltered and threatened legal action to those who tried to imply the card was sheet cut? It didn't sound like the fact it was sheet cut was common knowledge and accepted by the TPGers and the hobby heavyweights.

    Also, I wonder if us former Mastro customers will get retribution if it's confirmed auctions we won were shilled higher? I doubt they'll comb through old auciton records but I dropped $5k several times in their auctions and I always wondered if my bids were shilled up.
  • O'keefe is very steadfast in what he says Hughes told him.
    Leon Luckey
  • thunderdanthunderdan Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭
    I went to the PSA lunch at National where David Hall personally discussed that very card and addressed these very allegations and that if the card were proven to be trimmed, PSA would buy the card back at full market value. This seems pretty close to proof. I hope they do the right thing here to maintain the credibility of their brand.
    image





  • handymanhandyman Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭
    +1
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 5,895 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Also, I wonder if us former Mastro customers will get retribution if it's confirmed auctions we won were shilled higher? I doubt they'll comb through old auciton records but I dropped $5k several times in their auctions and I always wondered if my bids were shilled up. >>



    John, I believe they said the auction records from the Mastro auctions (pre '09) were all destroyed by accident. I know that for a long time I could look up my invoices from the last 10-12 years but they stopped showing up a year or so ago.
    I think sales prices reflect a closer scrutiny of certain auction houses more than any sort of economic downturn.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • BlackieBlackie Posts: 1,677 ✭✭
    "never get cheated"...... Say again Joe
    1964 Topps Football
  • Well that's interesting. If they do/did buy it back then Kudos to them. Then the case of "what is full market value" would be a debate. No Wagner has ever sold for less than it did previously, or so I have read. Would the owner ask for a refund or a refund+ ?

    If it were mine, and it isn't as my net worth isn't close to that card, I would probably (would have to give it more thought) ask for (handcut) to be put on the flip, leave the numerical grade on it...and move on and be happy. Again, that is just me and the way I think now. I might think differently if I shelled out 2.8M for it. image Back to my place under a rock.
    Leon Luckey


  • << <i>I went to the PSA lunch at National where David Hall personally discussed that very card and addressed these very allegations and that if the card were proven to be trimmed, PSA would buy the card back at full market value. This seems pretty close to proof. I hope they do the right thing here to maintain the credibility of their brand. >>



    If PSA buys back that card, I wonder if they'll raise submission fees to compensate?
    My Giants collection want list

    WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
  • The owner has to be willing to sell it first.
    Not sure that will happen. Still a beauty of a card.
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    #2 $46.50 per card 1955 and earlier 25-card minimum

    Set Registry special - $1.4 million per card any t206 sheet cut card 2-card minimum

  • I know I'm in the significant minority here, but I've always felt that if the card is the proper size, it doesn't matter if it's third-party sheet cut or factory sheet cut. I don't think the card's being third-party sheet cut will have any impact on value.
    Always buying 1971 OPC Baseball packs.
  • thunderdanthunderdan Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The owner has to be willing to sell it first.
    Not sure that will happen. Still a beauty of a card. >>



    Obviously I can't speak for Ken Kendrick and don't know how much of a purist he is about trimming. Still, if it were my card, I would want at least even money with what I paid.

    They could raise submission rates or use their cash position. Haven't been through CU's financial statements recently, so I don't know if they perhaps have insurance to cover them in such an instance. I don't recall one way or the other.
    image





  • drcdrc Posts: 292
    You can't make up a new grade and grading rules for one card.
  • firedawg45firedawg45 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭
    Awesome corvette!! Love those specials!!!!
    # 2 Pete Rose Master Set , also
    collecting 1977 topps baseball in psa 9 and psa 10
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