<< <i>Too strong of a brand to cause any real damage. Not to worry. >>
I agree. But with all of the controversy this has the potential to cause, it assures me on my decision to go all raw a few years ago. And the best part of it...the hobby became fun again.
That bad boy either is or isn't sheet cut. Let's stop all the in between. From what we were told on the Black Swamp find....the really incredible stuff goes through alot of tests and scrutiny. Many hobby veterans who have viewed the card up close have said it was sheet cut. I go back to all the tests and scrutiny. Silence will not be good on this issue. The silence will be deafening. I've never viewed the card in hand. I hope PSA makes a statement when it is all said and done.
Did anyone notice the Wagner has been reholdered within the last 4 years? The card now has a new flip. Could it have been examined outside the holder during this process?
<< <i>Also, I wonder if us former Mastro customers will get retribution if it's confirmed auctions we won were shilled higher? I doubt they'll comb through old auciton records but I dropped $5k several times in their auctions and I always wondered if my bids were shilled up. >>
John, I believe they said the auction records from the Mastro auctions (pre '09) were all destroyed by accident. I know that for a long time I could look up my invoices from the last 10-12 years but they stopped showing up a year or so ago. I think sales prices reflect a closer scrutiny of certain auction houses more than any sort of economic downturn. >>
Isn't that convenient?!
Would we love to be the guy who owns the PSA 5 NQ Wagner example? I believe that will be the highest graded example once the 8 is converted to authentic. I would think that would raise the value of that card significantly.
That's why I only buy vintage unopened loose packs on eBay from sellers who say they were found in an estate sale, 'cause those packs can't be tampered with.
<< <i>That's why I only buy vintage unopened loose packs on eBay from sellers who say they were found in an estate sale, 'cause those packs can't be tampered with. >>
My understanding is that for years there's been speculation on the card - at least now there's closure for many.
As it goes for the hobby - and this is just my opine - the average collector will probably read or hear about this and say: WOW! And then go back to collecting whatever it is they collect.
Not sure about what process the card went thru but I do remember the card at the '92 National in Atlanta. It was marched out on display like the Ark of the Covenant. It was surely to be the flagship of the fleet. Good intentions and I want to believe - no intent of malice. But, as suspicions and accusations grew - many speculated. Now - it's over.
People - for numerous reasons - were primed and ready to accept legitimate TPGs back then - and were viewed as an important adjunct to purchasing cards thru SCD e.g.
I think this "flagship" launched a fledgling company - and I'm sure if challenged, they will do the right thing.
It would be easy for me to jump to conclusions and think the bottom is going to fall out - but I'm sure the hobby is bigger than this - and if properly handled, the issue will fade away.
Just think - even tho some of our most favored home run heroes have tainted the long ball game - people still happily attend and support the game of baseball.
I believe many of us have seen TPGs from their inception and have learned to beware and the general rule of buying the card not the holder is as pervasive as "In God We Trust."
Did you ever try to sell a authentic graded card? Wow what a hit. Or better yet send it back to the owner in a evidence of trimming holder. Because that is exactly what it is now a trimmed baseball card.
back then of course Mastro was the place for high end stuff. Also dropped many thousands of dollars on numerous auctions. Recall some max bids that were not reached, but most were maxed out. Always wondered--really knew, understanding the nature of mankind. Sad--really.
Will it hurt the value of this card? IMO, no. Also a result of understanding the nature of man. Just think car accident and rubberneckers. The card may not continue to increase in value as it had, but I do not think it will be adversely affected.
As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting.
As an aside, what a great thread. Nice to see knowledgeable members chime in on the board again. try to visit more often.
I am of the opinion that this card has reached such legendary status, not only in the hobby but in the general public eyes that the value will not be diminished as much as everyone thinks it will be if/when it gets re-graded. I mean seriously, if you are the owner of this card, will you purposely fall on your sword and do the right thing and have it regraded and therefore greatly diminish your investment if PSA does not do the right thing and buy the card back?
This card will forever be known as THEE card and will retain a measure of it's value above and beyond what an "authentic" example of a Wagner would be because of it's notoriety alone.
I think that there was already a great deal of "suspicion" for a long time that the card was trimmed. That suspicion didnt really effect the value in a negative way. And, i dont see the current owner or future owner resubmitting it to downgrade it to a Authentic. So forever, it will be in the 8 holder (unless PSA purchases the card).
I also think that this will not effect the graded card market at all. I liked one person's thought who said the average collector will say "WOW" and resume whatever they were doing. PSA's brand in the market is so strong that this will probably be just a blip on their radar, if that. Life will go on as usual.
The card's value at least won't ever go UP now. If I had the means and was out to buy, I 'd buy the next Wagner in line verse purchasing a known flawed tainted Wagner.
<< <i>I am of the opinion that this card has reached such legendary status, not only in the hobby but in the general public eyes that the value will not be diminished as much as everyone thinks it will be if/when it gets re-graded. I mean seriously, if you are the owner of this card, will you purposely fall on your sword and do the right thing and have it regraded and therefore greatly diminish your investment if PSA does not do the right thing and buy the card back?
This card will forever be known as THEE card and will retain a measure of it's value above and beyond what an "authentic" example of a Wagner would be because of it's notoriety alone. >>
The three most expensive all time sales of the non Wagner PSA 8 ($2.8M) are:
<< <i>Flatfoot: As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting. >>
<< <i>Flatfoot: As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting. >>
psa needs to make good and buy it back, re-flip it with whatever they decide, then auction it off. Even if it takes a dive in value, the difference between their purchase price and sale price would be well well worth avoiding a PR nightmare and restoring faith in their brand. Plus who knows....they say all publicity is good publicity. It wouldn't surprise me if this whole debacle sends the value through the roof (again)....
<< <i>Will this hurt the vaue of the T206 Wagner? Mastro >>
Yes it will. The card is now going to be officially tainted with the qualifier of being trimmed regardless of the words appearing in the flip.
What's worse is that this poisons the pool of all the high value items that Mastro has ever touched. His reputation and word are clearly ruined.
Mastro cheated, got caught, and is admitting it only to save what little of his face he has left. >>
Is Mastro the only guy that has done this? Did PSA know day 1 or not? If if they didn't, there has been smoke and fire for well over a decade with no recanting.
Not sure there is an honest auction house left out there. The way their auctions always somehow end at sales prices higher(before you even add in the buyers premium) than people can get on several buy-it-nows on ebay, is very telling. And I am talking about on easy to find 1980s wax and sets.
Back in another thread where I said baseball cards from here on out are not good investments, but rather should be bought for the joy of collecting, somebody tried to dispute my rational stand by foolishly saying stuff along the lines of 'look at the Wagner and how it always appreciates in value, and always will."
and please don't let the episode of this particular item taint everything else which exists. it's one card. a real BIG one. but it's still just one of billions.
i don't think folks are running away in droves. maybe cliques.
Give this topic a year to cool down. Most people in the industry knew the card was cut. Just look at it. That card made the hobby to what it is today. It's not going to break the hobby.
In an interview for the book "The Card", PSA grader Bill Hughes, who was part of the grading team that graded the Wagner, was quoted as saying, regarding the suspected trimming: "We were aware of that when the card came to PSA. This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."
<< <i>While we're all coming clean here, I have to admit to everyone that in 1987 I used a black sharpie on two dinged corners of a Donruss Benito Santiago >>
Ruth is the King. Maybe a throne change with the coming years.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Those are public sales. There have been Private sales above some of those quoted. >>
Leon,
Are you only talking about Wagner sales or are there completely other cards that could become the new face of the hobby? >>
I am only privy to Wagner sales and won't comment specifically out of respect for the parties. There are quite a few cards, other than Wagners, that if sold publicly or privately, would top 500k...and I am not including post wwII though I know all about the '52 Mantles in 10s...(great cards too). This hobby is over 75 years old and some of my friends have been collecting for 45+ yrs. Quite a few of them have, actually. This whole debacle is barely a speed bump. If you don't believe me just look at any of the 20+ public auctions that will be ending in the next 3-4 mos and their realized prices. The sky isn't falling. PSA will have a very small PR issue but I don't expect it to affect them much either, and it shouldn't, imo. PSA does a heckuva lot more good than bad....maybe this is a mistake, and a high profile one, but the company is solid. I don't know about the Execs from 15 yrs ago but I trust Joe O and would be absolutely shocked if he knew something nefarious was going on and didn't try to fix it IMMEDIATELY. Again, just my opinions. And ya'll know what they say about them If anyone thinks I am just brown-nosing, I am not. If I didn't believe what I am saying I wouldn't say anything. I love the hobby (and of course with my collection I do have a vested interest).....
Considering Leon and his board mostly prefers SGC (or at least gives that impression), major props for coming here and discussing rationally rather than piling on.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Really makes one wonder...how many of those "exceptions" have occurred over the years on how many cards? Unfortunately, in every realm, the sports memorabilia industry has dirt. Im just happy collecting my semi-worthless sets and autos.
1. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of trimming; 2. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of re-coloring; 3. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of restoration; 4. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of tampering; and 5. determined that the wagner was not of questionable authenticity. >>
This card just proves the point that it is very possible that Grading might not be on an even playing field, sure this card is the holy grail per say but what about other submissions from people who are big names in the hobby or huge money spenders do they get preffered treatment? Meaning are their cards graded less subjectivaly than you and me? I have and always will be suspect of that.
That being said regardless of the pr hit PSA might take from this I seriously dont think this will have an impact on PSA being the benchmark for the graded card market they are #1 and will remain #1
Im certainly not kissing a$$ here because I dont have a subscription nor do I even buy cards anymore just stating my opinion.
<< <i>This card just proves the point that it is very possible that Grading might not be on an even playing field, sure this card is the holy grail per say but what about other submissions from people who are big names in the hobby or huge money spenders do they get preffered treatment? Meaning are their cards graded less subjectivaly than you and me? I have and always will be suspect of that.
That being said regardless of the pr hit PSA might take from this I seriously dont think this will have an impact on PSA being the benchmark for the graded card market they are #1 and will remain #1
Im certainly not kissing a$$ here because I dont have a subscription nor do I even buy cards anymore just stating my opinion. >>
It's very hard to say this to, uh hummm, Patriots fan, but.. I Agree 100% with those concerns !
<< <i>In an interview for the book "The Card", PSA grader Bill Hughes, who was part of the grading team that graded the Wagner, was quoted as saying, regarding the suspected trimming: "We were aware of that when the card came to PSA. This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."
The book came out years ago. >>
If this is true, and it seems quite probable to me, all it means is PSA as a grading service made a decision that a lot of collectors don't agree with. Happens all the time with literally thousands of cards.
When submitting a card to PSA for grading we are asking for their OPINION on a cards grade on a scale of 1-10.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
<< <i> Back to my place under a rock. >>
Thought you were in an igloo?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>
<< <i>Too strong of a brand to cause any real damage. Not to worry. >>
I agree. But with all of the controversy this has the potential to cause, it assures me on my decision to go all raw a few years ago. And the best part of it...the hobby became fun again.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>
<< <i> Back to my place under a rock. >>
Thought you were in an igloo? >>
touche
<< <i>This is not a Hobby its a Bussiness. >>
Hobby and Business are just 2 branches of card collecting.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, I wonder if us former Mastro customers will get retribution if it's confirmed auctions we won were shilled higher? I doubt they'll comb through old auciton records but I dropped $5k several times in their auctions and I always wondered if my bids were shilled up. >>
John, I believe they said the auction records from the Mastro auctions (pre '09) were all destroyed by accident. I know that for a long time I could look up my invoices from the last 10-12 years but they stopped showing up a year or so ago.
I think sales prices reflect a closer scrutiny of certain auction houses more than any sort of economic downturn. >>
Isn't that convenient?!
Would we love to be the guy who owns the PSA 5 NQ Wagner example? I believe that will be the highest graded example once the 8 is converted to authentic. I would think that would raise the value of that card significantly.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>It's a shame that the value of all our collections might take a hit for this. >>
i hear you. thank "god" it's a hobby!
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
<< <i>That's why I only buy vintage unopened loose packs on eBay from sellers who say they were found in an estate sale, 'cause those packs can't be tampered with. >>
I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
<< <i>I see it's holier than thou night on the board >>
I think that's just about every night.
As it goes for the hobby - and this is just my opine - the average collector will probably read or hear about this and say: WOW! And then go back to collecting whatever it is they collect.
Not sure about what process the card went thru but I do remember the card at the '92 National in Atlanta. It was marched out on display like the Ark of the Covenant. It was surely to be the flagship of the fleet. Good intentions and I want to believe - no intent of malice. But, as suspicions and accusations grew - many speculated. Now - it's over.
People - for numerous reasons - were primed and ready to accept legitimate TPGs back then - and were viewed as an important adjunct to purchasing cards thru SCD e.g.
I think this "flagship" launched a fledgling company - and I'm sure if challenged, they will do the right thing.
It would be easy for me to jump to conclusions and think the bottom is going to fall out - but I'm sure the hobby is bigger than this - and if properly handled, the issue will fade away.
Just think - even tho some of our most favored home run heroes have tainted the long ball game - people still happily attend and support the game of baseball.
I believe many of us have seen TPGs from their inception and have learned to beware and the general rule of buying the card not the holder is as pervasive as "In God We Trust."
Or should it be *'d?
<< <i>This is why I collect autographs. There's too many suspicious pieces in the graded card industry...oh, wait...crap. >>
lol!
Will it hurt the value of this card? IMO, no. Also a result of understanding the nature of man. Just think car accident and rubberneckers. The card may not continue to increase in value as it had, but I do not think it will be adversely affected.
As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting.
As an aside, what a great thread. Nice to see knowledgeable members chime in on the board again. try to visit more often.
This card will forever be known as THEE card and will retain a measure of it's value above and beyond what an "authentic" example of a Wagner would be because of it's notoriety alone.
I think that there was already a great deal of "suspicion" for a long time that the card was trimmed. That suspicion didnt really effect the value in a negative way. And, i dont see the current owner or future owner resubmitting it to downgrade it to a Authentic. So forever, it will be in the 8 holder (unless PSA purchases the card).
I also think that this will not effect the graded card market at all. I liked one person's thought who said the average collector will say "WOW" and resume whatever they were doing. PSA's brand in the market is so strong that this will probably be just a blip on their radar, if that. Life will go on as usual.
Just my two cents.
Jeremy
<< <i>I am of the opinion that this card has reached such legendary status, not only in the hobby but in the general public eyes that the value will not be diminished as much as everyone thinks it will be if/when it gets re-graded. I mean seriously, if you are the owner of this card, will you purposely fall on your sword and do the right thing and have it regraded and therefore greatly diminish your investment if PSA does not do the right thing and buy the card back?
This card will forever be known as THEE card and will retain a measure of it's value above and beyond what an "authentic" example of a Wagner would be because of it's notoriety alone. >>
The three most expensive all time sales of the non Wagner PSA 8 ($2.8M) are:
$1.232M - Wagner SGC 3
$645K - Wagner PSA 2
$517K - Ruth Baltimore News SGC 3
Ruth is the King. Maybe a throne change with the coming years.
<< <i>Flatfoot: As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting. >>
+1
<< <i>
<< <i>Flatfoot: As for our collections if I didn't simply love collecting--I would sell in a minute. I have made many stupid purchases in the past to know that we can't do it for investment--but for the love of collecting. >>
+1 >>
+2
<< <i>
<< <i>
The three most expensive all time sales of the non Wagner PSA 8 ($2.8M) are:
$1.232M - Wagner SGC 3
$645K - Wagner PSA 2
$517K - Ruth Baltimore News SGC 3
Ruth is the King. Maybe a throne change with the coming years.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Those are public sales. There have been Private sales above some of those quoted.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
The three most expensive all time sales of the non Wagner PSA 8 ($2.8M) are:
$1.232M - Wagner SGC 3
$645K - Wagner PSA 2
$517K - Ruth Baltimore News SGC 3
Ruth is the King. Maybe a throne change with the coming years.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Those are public sales. There have been Private sales above some of those quoted. >>
Leon,
Are you only talking about Wagner sales or are there completely other cards that could become the new face of the hobby?
<< <i>
<< <i>Will this hurt the vaue of the T206 Wagner?
Mastro >>
Yes it will. The card is now going to be officially tainted with the qualifier of being trimmed regardless of the words appearing in the flip.
What's worse is that this poisons the pool of all the high value items that Mastro has ever touched. His reputation and word are clearly ruined.
Mastro cheated, got caught, and is admitting it only to save what little of his face he has left. >>
Is Mastro the only guy that has done this? Did PSA know day 1 or not? If if they didn't, there has been smoke and fire for well over a decade with no recanting.
So, much deeper than just a single evil man.
LMFAO!
and please don't let the episode of this particular item taint everything else which exists. it's one card. a real BIG one. but it's still just one of billions.
i don't think folks are running away in droves. maybe cliques.
Always looking to buy or trade for Andre the Giant autographs
psacard.com/psasetregistry/non-sports/famous-personage/andre-giant-master-set/alltimeset/180400
"We were aware of that when the card came to PSA. This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."
The book came out years ago.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Wagner worth more article
Obviously this situation will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Here are a few articles that came out earlier this year.
<< <i>While we're all coming clean here, I have to admit to everyone that in 1987 I used a black sharpie on two dinged corners of a Donruss Benito Santiago >>
Hahaha. Awesome.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
The three most expensive all time sales of the non Wagner PSA 8 ($2.8M) are:
$1.232M - Wagner SGC 3
$645K - Wagner PSA 2
$517K - Ruth Baltimore News SGC 3
Ruth is the King. Maybe a throne change with the coming years.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Those are public sales. There have been Private sales above some of those quoted. >>
Leon,
Are you only talking about Wagner sales or are there completely other cards that could become the new face of the hobby? >>
I am only privy to Wagner sales and won't comment specifically out of respect for the parties. There are quite a few cards, other than Wagners, that if sold publicly or privately, would top 500k...and I am not including post wwII though I know all about the '52 Mantles in 10s...(great cards too). This hobby is over 75 years old and some of my friends have been collecting for 45+ yrs. Quite a few of them have, actually. This whole debacle is barely a speed bump. If you don't believe me just look at any of the 20+ public auctions that will be ending in the next 3-4 mos and their realized prices. The sky isn't falling. PSA will have a very small PR issue but I don't expect it to affect them much either, and it shouldn't, imo. PSA does a heckuva lot more good than bad....maybe this is a mistake, and a high profile one, but the company is solid. I don't know about the Execs from 15 yrs ago but I trust Joe O and would be absolutely shocked if he knew something nefarious was going on and didn't try to fix it IMMEDIATELY. Again, just my opinions. And ya'll know what they say about them
<< <i>semi?
cmon...I was trying to make myself feel good about spending money on this stuff.
<< <i>PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.
since psa did, in fact, grade the wagner, psa ...
1. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of trimming;
2. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of re-coloring;
3. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of restoration;
4. determined that the wagner did not bear any evidence of tampering; and
5. determined that the wagner was not of questionable authenticity. >>
6. None of the above
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
That being said regardless of the pr hit PSA might take from this I seriously dont think this will have an impact on PSA being the benchmark for the graded card market they are #1 and will remain #1
Im certainly not kissing a$$ here because I dont have a subscription nor do I even buy cards anymore just stating my opinion.
<< <i>This card just proves the point that it is very possible that Grading might not be on an even playing field, sure this card is the holy grail per say but what about other submissions from people who are big names in the hobby or huge money spenders do they get preffered treatment? Meaning are their cards graded less subjectivaly than you and me? I have and always will be suspect of that.
That being said regardless of the pr hit PSA might take from this I seriously dont think this will have an impact on PSA being the benchmark for the graded card market they are #1 and will remain #1
Im certainly not kissing a$$ here because I dont have a subscription nor do I even buy cards anymore just stating my opinion. >>
It's very hard to say this to, uh hummm, Patriots fan, but.. I Agree 100% with those concerns !
<< <i>In an interview for the book "The Card", PSA grader Bill Hughes, who was part of the grading team that graded the Wagner, was quoted as saying, regarding the suspected trimming:
"We were aware of that when the card came to PSA. This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."
The book came out years ago. >>
If this is true, and it seems quite probable to me, all it means is PSA as a grading service made a decision that a lot of collectors don't agree with. Happens all the time with literally thousands of cards.
When submitting a card to PSA for grading we are asking for their OPINION on a cards grade on a scale of 1-10.
Joe