I agree, Joe. I don't see the sky falling here. A cut card made it through the PSA graders. This has happened, and likely will again, though with very low frequency.
Is it a card of great magnitude and thus egg on PSA's face? Sure, though more specifically it's on the regime that presided over its grading.
But is this "news" a hobby death knell? No way. I just don't see avid, rational collectors abandoning their beloved hobby in droves, or believing every card in a TPG slab is now altered. I think TPGs get it right far more often than they blow it. And when they blow it they do have a policy of buying back what slipped through. That said, I would imagine some type of detailed, formal statement would be in order on the heels of the allocution, even if the meat of the statement is simply a rehash of what Banzai quoted in his post above.
I think the major issue is people, like you, using non-ebay public internet auctions as price guides for card values. Until proven otherwise I maintain the position that these houses are perfect venues for bad behavior. I feel using them as barometers for the true value of cards, and indicators of the industry in general, to be inappropriate until they give everyone reason to think otherwise.
I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
So then, do you believe eBay with its safety bids to be the barometer of the true value?
I would agree that there is arguably just as much bidding manipulation and shill bidding going on via ebay as most major auction houses. The majority of major auction house lots I have won have been for less than ebay, too. While I believe that there is certainly some "safety bidding" going on via the auction house format, the same happens on ebay, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't even know why this is a discussion topic. The card was falsely graded and it was intended. The grader himself admitted it. This is a huge integrity hit to PSA. No qualifier, even a hand-cut notation (if it was cut from a sheet), trimmed, altered, anything. No. It was given a solid grade. The best thing here that could happen as this is out now is for PSA to request regrading the card. Insane yes, but the owner should do so and sue PSA for the difference from the 2.8 mil and the sale of it now. Who is going to buy the card now from the current owner. This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now.
I think your bias against major auction houses has clouded your judgment. What your claiming is based on your perception about the private bidding format and not based on fact or experience. I am no means a big fish (your example of a PSA 10 1979 Smith RC is a rather extreme example, if in fact it was shilled and you really have no evidence or proof of that), but in my own experience in participating in bidding on lots in the $500-$1,500 range, I have not felt that my bids were shilled or artificially inflated because of the private bidding format. Like I said, I'm sure there is shill or safety bidding going on (and some houses are certainly more "guilty" of this than others), but to say it is as rampant as you claim because the bidding is private or because you don't like the idea of sending payment by money order or check, is essentially unfounded and a generalization that is not backed up by any concrete evidence.
Edit to add: OTOH, and to the contrary of your assertions, I think you underestimating the amount of shill or safety bidding happening on ebay, at least as far as I have seen in the sportscard category.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now.
I agree with this and think that turning this thread into a referendum on the integrity of auction houses on a whole is kind of missing the real issue here regarding the grading of this particular and iconic card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Halper. Nuff said. Nothing is as it seems. Best bet - don't buy big. Autos/cards whatever. It is all so fake up there at the high end and who can sucker in who. Stick with 88 Donruss and I would guarantee no fakeness. (kidding)
Paul, am not getting the Bubblebathgirl thing along with the CSI chick avatar. Is that all just a thing here or something,,well funky goin' on that you are cool yourself. No concerns though as it looks like you waste most of the posters on this board and their lovely 'knowledge'. Just want to know WTF is up with that ?
A cut card made it through the PSA graders. This has happened, and likely will again, though with very low frequency.
There are several bulk submitters whose entire business is predicated on the fact that PSA can not tell a well trimmed card from an untrimmed card. Before people jump on their soap boxes I guarantee those people would be unable to tell either. The natural variance of cards cut at the factory makes identification of anything other than hack jobs guesswork at best. I've opened packs with 5 different sized cards inside all of which came straight from the factory.
As for Mastro who knows if he is telling the truth now. If the government has you dead to rights on 10 of 12 counts and you can plea down to something reasonable would you hold out if 2 of those 12 counts were not actually true? People plea to things they did not actually do, my father used to be a prosecutor, if it means more lenient treatment for something they did do.
<< <i>I don't even know why this is a discussion topic. The card was falsely graded and it was intended. The grader himself admitted it. This is a huge integrity hit to PSA. No qualifier, even a hand-cut notation (if it was cut from a sheet), trimmed, altered, anything. No. It was given a solid grade. The best thing here that could happen as this is out now is for PSA to request regrading the card. Insane yes, but the owner should do so and sue PSA for the difference from the 2.8 mil and the sale of it now. Who is going to buy the card now from the current owner. This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now. >>
Card is NOT falsely graded. PSA has rendered it's opinion. Despite PSA's stance against grading sheet cut cards, they decided this one was important enough to get a grade. Card deserves it's current grade. Why on earth would they change it? If they do THEN I think they have a problem. I don't believe you can sue someone for rendering an opinion.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now.
I agree with this and think that turning this thread into a referendum on the integrity of auction houses on a whole is kind of missing the real issue here regarding the grading of this particular and iconic card. >>
This is on point with the subject of the thread as it is a major auction house, Mastro Auctions, that was "indicted on charges related to manipulating auctions and selling allegedly fraudulent or doctored sports memorabilia. Most notably, the Gretzky T-206 Honus Wagner was alleged to have been trimmed by Mastro to improve its value."
With regard to Mastro, I would agree, but I would not use this case to indict auction houses in general, several of which operate quite reputably.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There is a dirty side on the underbelly of the hobby. If you don't want to know about it, don't look. It isn't going away. Where there is money to be made, some will find a way to make it. Mastro and PSA aren't the real culprits, here. The real culprits are the vast majority of the collecting hobby that, when they hear of this, will throw their arms up in disgust, cry foul, point accusing fingers of blame and then go right on adding to their collection. If you don't believe this, just look at some of the higher profile incidents that have occurred over the years and look at their overall impact on the hobby.
Too many are looking for the next death knell, but there isn't one. A bad economy, reslabbing scams, counterfeiting, shill bidding, forgery, deception and a myriad of other topics have all been pointed to as the beginning of the end. And yet, over the years, the hobby still stands and there are still record prices being paid.
Discount auction houses, private sales and show sales all you want. Point to VCP as the Bible or as Satan's tool. Wave an accusing finger at overpriced BIN's or high priced fixed-price models. Stuff still sells. And it will continue to sell.
I was told something long ago that still rings true today... There's an azz for every seat. All you have to know is how much someone will pay to sit in that seat and be able to pay less for it and you will make money selling it to the person that wants to sit in it.
If you feel happy with the prices you pay then that's great ... maybe they have been legit ... but you have absolutely no evidence to support your feelings
On the contrary, Paul, do you have evidence to support your assertions regarding shill bidding and/or "safety" bidding? As the accuser, the burden of proof is upon you to present such evidence to support your claims. Just because you feel the auction house format and private bidding is ripe for shilling doesn't make it so. And while Mastro is very deservedly under fire for their actions in this case, to indict auction houses in general because of that, is unfair, as there are several that operate quite reputably, imo.
More than once, others have presented rather provocative evidence on this board on card grading that defied "common sense" but without actual proof (as I recall you yourself had stated, and correctly so) such assusations are essentially speculation and nothing more.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There are plenty of private sales that become public.
I bought this card on the private market for $1,820. I am not sure what it would have sold for on EBAY. I do not care. I wanted a mint condition Andre The Giant and when the opportunity presented itself I paid what the seller was asking.
The only reason this sale is recognized in the SMR is because I emailed Joe Orlando and let him know I finally found the primary card I was looking for.
He published it in the SMR because it was a very relevant sale.
Many of the largest transactions in life happen before they hit the open market.
There may be games being played on any level but do not discount the activity that happens before it gets a chance to see the masses.
I think your bias against major auction houses has clouded your judgment. What your claiming is based on your perception about the private bidding format and not based on fact or experience. I am no means a big fish (your example of a PSA 10 1979 Smith RC is a rather extreme example, if in fact it was shilled and you really have no evidence or proof of that), but in my own experience in participating in bidding on lots in the $500-$1,500 range, I have not felt that my bids were shilled or artificially inflated because of the private bidding format. Like I said, I'm sure there is shill or safety bidding going on (and some houses are certainly more "guilty" of this than others), but to say it is as rampant as you claim because the bidding is private or because you don't like the idea of sending payment by money order or check, is essentially unfounded and a generalization that is not backed up by any concrete evidence.
Edit to add: OTOH, and to the contrary of your assertions, I think you underestimating the amount of shill or safety bidding happening on ebay, at least as far as I have seen in the sportscard category. >>
Tim,
I believe in a little thing called common sense. And it doesn't take a large dose of it to realize why the auction houses function like they do. I use the Ozzie example as it's the big cards that the big shillers focus on ... it's not worth their time to shill every single low end card as I consider the ones you have purchased for my points.
If you feel happy with the prices you pay then that's great ... maybe they have been legit ... but you have absolutely no evidence to support your feelings. Whereas on ebay you can see the feedback of who bids on items and at least have a clue to who they are. You have no way to prove that bids in auction houses are legitimate ... whereas I can easily show, as I have many times and many have agreed, that the auction houses enable an environment that allows for more cheating than on ebay.
And now the purveyors of a very famous auction house have been indited on very serious charges and admitted to a hall of fame cheating charge. >>
Exactly what kind of proof would you ask Tim to provide to demonstrate to you that there are honest auction houses out there?
<< <i>you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it. >>
WOW! So your saying that most everyone is a liar in your eyes?
Sorry, please don't respond. That was rhetorical!
I'm really not in the mood to engage myself with you, Paul... Just wanted to point out why so many leave a discussion with you with a bad taste in their mouth.
I have followed this interesting thread for a couple days now. I am a firm believer that if something is wrong, one should do what it takes to make it right...if possible. The question remains, is something wrong here or not. I am a long time member of PSA and have submitted thousands of cards. I have received cards back identified as miscut, trimmed, and altered. Therefore, I believe PSA does not grade cards that they have concerns about. I also know that they don't always get it right. Mistakes happen due to human error. I have had a few cards purchased back by PSA when a mistake was pointed out. Their position was that they wanted the card removed from the market so they could correct their error and even paid me more than I had into the cards to get them back.
I believe That Matt's (user ID Mefer) response on the third page of this thread did an excellent job of summerizing the issue. I also attended the most recent PSA Luncheon at the Baltimore National and heard the discussion regarding the Wagner PSA 8. David Hall clearly stated that the three individuals involved in the grading were convinced there was no trimming involved and the real issue was whether it was a 7 or an 8. Bill Hughes, one of the three, denies having ever said that trimming was known according to Hall. So now we have Mastro saying that he trimmed (or cut from a sheet) the card and implied PSA was aware of this. Obviously someone is not being truthful.
It seems to me that if PSA feels that there is any legitimacy to Mastro's claim, the card should be reviewed if possible. The current owner obviously has a lot to say about that option. The fact that PSA has not publically addressed the issue of reviewing the card and the grade implies to me that they stand behind their grade and believe Mastro's claims are false. Therefore, only time will tell us if the "great debate" regarding the holy grail of baseball cards will ever be resolved. My hope is that PSA has it right.
As for auction houses vs. eBay, shill betting, misrepresentation, etc. My position is to bid what the card is worth to you. I take into account SMR and VCP and try not to overpay by letting my emotions get the best of me. I've let many a great card pass me by because I wouldn't go beyond what I thought the card was worth. I figure I can't control who is betting on the card but if I do win the auction I can at least feel that I stayed within my criteria for betting and should be happy about the result. For the most part I bid on cards sold by eBay sellers I know and trust. The same for auction houses. I have only bid on cards from those businesses I feel confident in regarding their integrity. As a collector/buyer, I feel that the best you can do is become as knowledgeable about sports cards as you can and be careful with where and how you invest your resources. I have certainly made my share of deals that I would like back but valuable lessons were learned and applied in the future.
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
+1 (And I have been involved in a good number of these too)
As for Mastro, at this stage who knows what to believe from him (or Doug Allen, Mark Theotokis or Ron Oser for that matter). Does that mean that all auction houses are guilty of such behavior? Certainly not. All that can be said for sure is that Mr. Mastro has most certainly been telling some "whoppers", either in the past or the present (or both).
Buy the Book the Card by Michael O,Keeke and Terry Thompson and Read it. Very nice reading and you will find different quotes by the grader himself which I beleive is Bill Hughes. Page 87 Fortunately for Mastro, One of the first graders hired by PSA was Bill Hughes. Mastro and Hughes had known each other for years. Hughes was a well-known card and memorabilia dealer with weekly ads in Sports card Digest, a visible face on the card show circut. Pick this book up and read it you will not put it down till its compleated its that good.
I just finished reading The Card about 3 weeks ago on the recommendation of a local card dealer. I don't read many books but I did thoroughly enjoy it.
How could you make it more like ebay? Would you want full names and mailing addresses as there bidder id or just visable. All these people would have 100% bidder activity with the seller. You can already see the number of bids and also what amounts were bid. But how could you make this like ebay? Only thing hidden is the identity of the bidders. What is needed? I agree its easy to think you have been shilled by an auction house. I have felt that a few times. But there is also a huge chance its the consignor bidding you up or a family friend. Only thing that keeps them in check or not to do this is the chance of getting stuck with paying the fees the auction house will charge them. And 18% is quite a bit of a fee to get stuck with. I guess the big fear is that the auction knows what your max is so then I can see a big problem. But has anyone proven they know a max bid? Can it be done? Is that being done? We know ebay most likely knows but they cant and dont run up bids as we know of. Is this the issue?
Obviously, this debate (auction houses vs ebay) comes down to what the perception of the collector is and whether he trusts one venue over the other, or trusts both, or neither. Personally, I have found through my dealings with auction houses, that there are very reputable auction houses that do not run up bids just because they can. The same can be done on ebay with absolutely no transparency, when consigning items to a seller like Probstein or PWCC, but as a bidder you are trusting the integrity of that auction and the seller even if the seller has no way of even knowing if the consignor is bidding on his own items because as we all know you can very easily set up multiple alt IDs on ebay for shilling purposes and to think that shilling is not going on that way is rather foolish. I also find the potential for purchasing counterfeit or not authentic items much higher on ebay, too. I think PSArich summed it up best in a very imformative and well phrased post above--as a collector you should bid on an item to the the level you feel comfortable with, and to learn as much as you can about what you collect. To discount auction house auctions just because you feel you are potentially being shilled or ripped off is rather ridiculous and may cause you to miss out on some very unique and interesting items at appealing prices, too. There is a misconception that prices are always much higher for cards via the auction house route--on the contrary, I've been able to sell most of the items I've purchased in this manner at a profit, but of course, you have to be prudent and do your homework about what you are buying.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Card is NOT falsely graded. PSA has rendered it's opinion. Despite PSA's stance against grading sheet cut cards, they decided this one was important enough to get a grade. Card deserves it's current grade. >>
The opinion is supposed to be based on the guidelines they set forth. In this instance, they purposely suspended their guidelines to render a grade, due to the card and/or the submitter. That sounds kinda like favoritism.
Baseball, your assertions are essentially opinions based on cynical perception. You may or may not be accurate but you cannot prove anything unless you have proof I'm unaware of. It has nothing to do with being naive as long as you are aware and informed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
Yeah and so have I. And you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it.
Sometimes people here act like they want to be scammed ... believing and trusting way too much in people and systems that they are completely blind to. Then after they get scammed they come here complaining about it when they had been warned many times in advance.
If you can't see how and why the auction house structure is setup to scam you then you're exactly who they are looking for.
And if you don't care about the money then that's fine. >>
I really couldn't care less if you take my word for it or not. Regarding the third-party auction houses that you loathe so much, I'm certain some level of shilling goes on. That's why I adjust my bids accordingly and utilize historical data from the best (and most reputable) places I can find to help determine value. Just like you enjoy opening rack packs with long-sleeved black shirts and blue gloves, I have my own little idiosyncrasies. Data. I like to look at data. Lots and lots of data.
I think we all know where you stand with regards to third-party auction houses, Paul. Not sure why you feel the need to continue with the bluster and bombast.
This whole thing doesn't surprise me at all. Bill Mastro is as crooked as a dogs hind leg which has been proven already. PSA will show its true colors and i hope it is an honest and accountable color that they show. PSA obviously had something to gain out of this from the start with grading the most cherished card in existence an 8. What were they going to say evidence of trimming on the flip. It would sell for a fraction of what it sold for now with little hype and no media attention for them. If it was trimmed then say so!
Add in all the problems with sports and the scandles that surround them. Baseball is full of crooked cheeters with a commisioner that is ball-less, football is full of thugs and abusers of everything. Hockey is now rearing its ugly head with greed. Now we can add in a hobby that will be hugly impacted by this over time. I Myself have stopped collecting and will focus more on the things in life that truely do not lie and minipulate to get ahead. MY family! Sianara thanks PSA and Mastro..
Well I for one still love cards-- especially ones I want, that are accurately graded, and can be had for a price with which I'm comfortable. It all seems that simple to me at the end of the day, when I look at them to have some enjoyment and forget the daily BS. So anyone who feels this Wagner situation is reason enough to leave the hobby, feel free to PM me with what you have for sale; if it's on my list maybe we can work out a deal
As to the ebay vs auction house debate, someone (sorry-- I forget who, and am too lazy to re-read the whole thread) put it best, and I'll paraphrase: just bid what you are comfortable paying for a given card and all else becomes rather moot.
I will add, however, that on eBay a collector can possibly fall victim to a seller looking to make a quick score and vanish, whereas the major auction houses like REA are less likely to offer a compromised or fake slab, so one knows what they are getting is legit. Of course the most established Ebay sellers have this same positive thing going for them as well. But if I see a card I want being offered by a Lipset or REA versus a random ebay seller with whom I (or other collectors I ask) am not familiar, I'm more comfortable bidding with the REA.
<< <i><<Exactly what kind of proof would you ask Tim to provide to demonstrate to you that there are honest auction houses out there?>> >>
This is one of those instances in which proof is definitely not possible. But human nature being what it is, it would be wise to assume there are plenty of dishonest ones. It wouldn't at all surprise me to know that most "reputable" auction houses (maybe all of them) have run up bids. There's way too much incentive to do so. If a bidder has a $2,000 max bid, and no one else bids beyond $1,200, and that card usually goes for around $2,000, they would not only lose out on higher commissions, but the severe dissatisfaction of the seller, and possible future business. If the seller were someone they did a lot of business with, and/or the item in questions was 5 or 6 figures, all the more reason for them to engage in this behavior if they feel no one is watching.
The proof should not be on the bidders and we should NOT be assuming that the auction houses are honest. It should be on the auction houses to provide more transparency (like an ebay) to at least give some more assurance that this sort of thing isn't going on. The way that card auction houses run, it's a black box for bidders and the only assurance you have is their declared policy. As we know in life, it's never that wise to rely on seller representations when buying something. >>
Actually, no- that wouldn't be wise at all, because making that assumption could cost you $1000's of dollars. The best course of action would be to bid late on every lot, and to put in bids of about 70% of market value on every lot where that's still possible. If you win some of these lots you can be reasonably sure the house is honest. If you don't win any of them then you can drive on.
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
Yeah and so have I. And you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it.
Sometimes people here act like they want to be scammed ... believing and trusting way too much in people and systems that they are completely blind to. Then after they get scammed they come here complaining about it when they had been warned many times in advance.
If you can't see how and why the auction house structure is setup to scam you then you're exactly who they are looking for.
And if you don't care about the money then that's fine. >>
I really couldn't care less if you take my word for it or not. Regarding the third-party auction houses that you loathe so much, I'm certain some level of shilling goes on. That's why I adjust my bids accordingly and utilize historical data from the best (and most reputable) places I can find to help determine value. Just like you enjoy opening rack packs with long-sleeved black shirts and blue gloves, I have my own little idiosyncrasies. Data. I like to look at data. Lots and lots of data.
I think we all know where you stand with regards to third-party auction houses, Paul. Not sure why you feel the need to continue with the bluster and bombast. >>
Shhhh.. .enough talk about data. You'll scare the natives.
Comments
Is it a card of great magnitude and thus egg on PSA's face? Sure, though more specifically it's on the regime that presided over its grading.
But is this "news" a hobby death knell? No way. I just don't see avid, rational collectors abandoning their beloved hobby in droves, or believing every card in a TPG slab is now altered. I think TPGs get it right far more often than they blow it. And when they blow it they do have a policy of buying back what slipped through. That said, I would imagine some type of detailed, formal statement would be in order on the heels of the allocution, even if the meat of the statement is simply a rehash of what Banzai quoted in his post above.
<< <i>Leon,
I think the major issue is people, like you, using non-ebay public internet auctions as price guides for card values. Until proven otherwise I maintain the position that these houses are perfect venues for bad behavior. I feel using them as barometers for the true value of cards, and indicators of the industry in general, to be inappropriate until they give everyone reason to think otherwise.
I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
So then, do you believe eBay with its safety bids to be the barometer of the true value?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think your bias against major auction houses has clouded your judgment. What your claiming is based on your perception about the private bidding format and not based on fact or experience. I am no means a big fish (your example of a PSA 10 1979 Smith RC is a rather extreme example, if in fact it was shilled and you really have no evidence or proof of that), but in my own experience in participating in bidding on lots in the $500-$1,500 range, I have not felt that my bids were shilled or artificially inflated because of the private bidding format. Like I said, I'm sure there is shill or safety bidding going on (and some houses are certainly more "guilty" of this than others), but to say it is as rampant as you claim because the bidding is private or because you don't like the idea of sending payment by money order or check, is essentially unfounded and a generalization that is not backed up by any concrete evidence.
Edit to add: OTOH, and to the contrary of your assertions, I think you underestimating the amount of shill or safety bidding happening on ebay, at least as far as I have seen in the sportscard category.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree with this and think that turning this thread into a referendum on the integrity of auction houses on a whole is kind of missing the real issue here
regarding the grading of this particular and iconic card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Paul, am not getting the Bubblebathgirl thing along with the CSI chick avatar. Is that all just a thing here or something,,well funky goin' on that you are cool yourself. No concerns though as it looks like you waste most of the posters on this board and their lovely 'knowledge'. Just want to know WTF is up with that ?
There are several bulk submitters whose entire business is predicated on the fact that PSA can not tell a well trimmed card from an untrimmed card. Before people jump on their soap boxes I guarantee those people would be unable to tell either. The natural variance of cards cut at the factory makes identification of anything other than hack jobs guesswork at best. I've opened packs with 5 different sized cards inside all of which came straight from the factory.
As for Mastro who knows if he is telling the truth now. If the government has you dead to rights on 10 of 12 counts and you can plea down to something reasonable would you hold out if 2 of those 12 counts were not actually true? People plea to things they did not actually do, my father used to be a prosecutor, if it means more lenient treatment for something they did do.
Robb
<< <i>I don't even know why this is a discussion topic. The card was falsely graded and it was intended. The grader himself admitted it. This is a huge integrity hit to PSA. No qualifier, even a hand-cut notation (if it was cut from a sheet), trimmed, altered, anything. No. It was given a solid grade. The best thing here that could happen as this is out now is for PSA to request regrading the card. Insane yes, but the owner should do so and sue PSA for the difference from the 2.8 mil and the sale of it now. Who is going to buy the card now from the current owner. This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now. >>
Card is NOT falsely graded. PSA has rendered it's opinion. Despite PSA's stance against grading sheet cut cards, they decided this one was important enough to get a grade. Card deserves it's current grade. Why on earth would they change it? If they do THEN I think they have a problem. I don't believe you can sue someone for rendering an opinion.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>This card has nothing to do with aution houses, ebay, or other. This is on PSA to correct and nobody else now.
I agree with this and think that turning this thread into a referendum on the integrity of auction houses on a whole is kind of missing the real issue here
regarding the grading of this particular and iconic card. >>
This is on point with the subject of the thread as it is a major auction house, Mastro Auctions, that was "indicted on charges related to manipulating auctions and selling allegedly fraudulent or doctored sports memorabilia. Most notably, the Gretzky T-206 Honus Wagner was alleged to have been trimmed by Mastro to improve its value."
Link >>
With regard to Mastro, I would agree, but I would not use this case to indict auction houses in general, several of which operate quite reputably.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Too many are looking for the next death knell, but there isn't one. A bad economy, reslabbing scams, counterfeiting, shill bidding, forgery, deception and a myriad of other topics have all been pointed to as the beginning of the end. And yet, over the years, the hobby still stands and there are still record prices being paid.
Discount auction houses, private sales and show sales all you want. Point to VCP as the Bible or as Satan's tool. Wave an accusing finger at overpriced BIN's or high priced fixed-price models. Stuff still sells. And it will continue to sell.
I was told something long ago that still rings true today... There's an azz for every seat. All you have to know is how much someone will pay to sit in that seat and be able to pay less for it and you will make money selling it to the person that wants to sit in it.
On the contrary, Paul, do you have evidence to support your assertions regarding shill bidding and/or "safety" bidding? As the accuser, the burden of proof
is upon you to present such evidence to support your claims. Just because you feel the auction house format and private bidding is ripe for shilling doesn't make it so.
And while Mastro is very deservedly under fire for their actions in this case, to indict auction houses in general because of that, is unfair, as there are several that operate quite
reputably, imo.
More than once, others have presented rather provocative evidence on this board on card grading that defied "common sense" but without actual
proof (as I recall you yourself had stated, and correctly so) such assusations are essentially speculation and nothing more.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>On the contrary, Paul >>
Tim:
Good luck . . .
I bought this card on the private market for $1,820. I am not sure what it would have sold for on EBAY. I do not care. I wanted a mint condition Andre The Giant and when the opportunity presented itself I paid what the seller was asking.
The only reason this sale is recognized in the SMR is because I emailed Joe Orlando and let him know I finally found the primary card I was looking for.
He published it in the SMR because it was a very relevant sale.
Many of the largest transactions in life happen before they hit the open market.
There may be games being played on any level but do not discount the activity that happens before it gets a chance to see the masses.
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Paul,
I think your bias against major auction houses has clouded your judgment. What your claiming is based on your perception about the private bidding format and not based on fact or experience. I am no means a big fish (your example of a PSA 10 1979 Smith RC is a rather extreme example, if in fact it was shilled and you really have no evidence or proof of that), but in my own experience in participating in bidding on lots in the $500-$1,500 range, I have not felt that my bids were shilled or artificially inflated because of the private bidding format. Like I said, I'm sure there is shill or safety bidding going on (and some houses are certainly more "guilty" of this than others), but to say it is as rampant as you claim because the bidding is private or because you don't like the idea of sending payment by money order or check, is essentially unfounded and a generalization that is not backed up by any concrete evidence.
Edit to add: OTOH, and to the contrary of your assertions, I think you underestimating the amount of shill or safety bidding happening on ebay, at least as far as I have seen in the sportscard category. >>
Tim,
I believe in a little thing called common sense. And it doesn't take a large dose of it to realize why the auction houses function like they do. I use the Ozzie example as it's the big cards that the big shillers focus on ... it's not worth their time to shill every single low end card as I consider the ones you have purchased for my points.
If you feel happy with the prices you pay then that's great ... maybe they have been legit ... but you have absolutely no evidence to support your feelings. Whereas on ebay you can see the feedback of who bids on items and at least have a clue to who they are. You have no way to prove that bids in auction houses are legitimate ... whereas I can easily show, as I have many times and many have agreed, that the auction houses enable an environment that allows for more cheating than on ebay.
And now the purveyors of a very famous auction house have been indited on very serious charges and admitted to a hall of fame cheating charge. >>
Exactly what kind of proof would you ask Tim to provide to demonstrate to you that there are honest auction houses out there?
<< <i>you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it. >>
WOW! So your saying that most everyone is a liar in your eyes?
Sorry, please don't respond. That was rhetorical!
I'm really not in the mood to engage myself with you, Paul... Just wanted to point out why so many leave a discussion with you with a bad taste in their mouth.
I believe That Matt's (user ID Mefer) response on the third page of this thread did an excellent job of summerizing the issue. I also attended the most recent PSA Luncheon at the Baltimore National and heard the discussion regarding the Wagner PSA 8. David Hall clearly stated that the three individuals involved in the grading were convinced there was no trimming involved and the real issue was whether it was a 7 or an 8. Bill Hughes, one of the three, denies having ever said that trimming was known according to Hall. So now we have Mastro saying that he trimmed (or cut from a sheet) the card and implied PSA was aware of this. Obviously someone is not being truthful.
It seems to me that if PSA feels that there is any legitimacy to Mastro's claim, the card should be reviewed if possible. The current owner obviously has a lot to say about that option. The fact that PSA has not publically addressed the issue of reviewing the card and the grade implies to me that they stand behind their grade and believe Mastro's claims are false. Therefore, only time will tell us if the "great debate" regarding the holy grail of baseball cards will ever be resolved. My hope is that PSA has it right.
As for auction houses vs. eBay, shill betting, misrepresentation, etc. My position is to bid what the card is worth to you. I take into account SMR and VCP and try not to overpay by letting my emotions get the best of me. I've let many a great card pass me by because I wouldn't go beyond what I thought the card was worth. I figure I can't control who is betting on the card but if I do win the auction I can at least feel that I stayed within my criteria for betting and should be happy about the result. For the most part I bid on cards sold by eBay sellers I know and trust. The same for auction houses. I have only bid on cards from those businesses I feel confident in regarding their integrity. As a collector/buyer, I feel that the best you can do is become as knowledgeable about sports cards as you can and be careful with where and how you invest your resources. I have certainly made my share of deals that I would like back but valuable lessons were learned and applied in the future.
<< <i>
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
+1 (And I have been involved in a good number of these too)
As for Mastro, at this stage who knows what to believe from him (or Doug Allen, Mark Theotokis or Ron Oser for that matter).
Does that mean that all auction houses are guilty of such behavior? Certainly not. All that can be said for sure is that Mr. Mastro
has most certainly been telling some "whoppers", either in the past or the present (or both).
Dave
I don't read many books but I did thoroughly enjoy it.
with a reference to the Mastro Thread going on here.
<< <i>I'd be remiss if I didn't at the least add one comment to this thread.
Not me. I'm staying on the sidelines.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
I agree its easy to think you have been shilled by an auction house. I have felt that a few times. But there is also a huge chance its the consignor bidding you up or a family friend. Only thing that keeps them in check or not to do this is the chance of getting stuck with paying the fees the auction house will charge them. And 18% is quite a bit of a fee to get stuck with. I guess the big fear is that the auction knows what your max is so then I can see a big problem. But has anyone proven they know a max bid? Can it be done? Is that being done? We know ebay most likely knows but they cant and dont run up bids as we know of. Is this the issue?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Card is NOT falsely graded. PSA has rendered it's opinion. Despite PSA's stance against grading sheet cut cards, they decided this one was important enough to get a grade. Card deserves it's current grade. >>
The opinion is supposed to be based on the guidelines they set forth. In this instance, they purposely suspended their guidelines to render a grade, due to the card and/or the submitter. That sounds kinda like favoritism.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I'd be remiss if I didn't at the least add one comment to this thread.
Well I added a comment and it has magically disappeared from the thread. I didn't even know that was possible.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
Yeah and so have I. And you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it.
Sometimes people here act like they want to be scammed ... believing and trusting way too much in people and systems that they are completely blind to. Then after they get scammed they come here complaining about it when they had been warned many times in advance.
If you can't see how and why the auction house structure is setup to scam you then you're exactly who they are looking for.
And if you don't care about the money then that's fine. >>
I really couldn't care less if you take my word for it or not. Regarding the third-party auction houses that you loathe so much, I'm certain some level of shilling goes on. That's why I adjust my bids accordingly and utilize historical data from the best (and most reputable) places I can find to help determine value. Just like you enjoy opening rack packs with long-sleeved black shirts and blue gloves, I have my own little idiosyncrasies. Data. I like to look at data. Lots and lots of data.
I think we all know where you stand with regards to third-party auction houses, Paul. Not sure why you feel the need to continue with the bluster and bombast.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd be remiss if I didn't at the least add one comment to this thread.
Well I added a comment and it has magically disappeared from the thread. I didn't even know that was possible. >>
Me too! System Glitch? >>
I thought maybe it was because I mentioned Mr. Orlando in my post, although clearly all in fun.
Add in all the problems with sports and the scandles that surround them. Baseball is full of crooked cheeters with a commisioner that is ball-less, football is full of thugs and abusers of everything. Hockey is now rearing its ugly head with greed. Now we can add in a hobby that will be hugly impacted by this over time. I Myself have stopped collecting and will focus more on the things in life that truely do not lie and minipulate to get ahead. MY family! Sianara thanks PSA and Mastro..
As to the ebay vs auction house debate, someone (sorry-- I forget who, and am too lazy to re-read the whole thread) put it best, and I'll paraphrase: just bid what you are comfortable paying for a given card and all else becomes rather moot.
I will add, however, that on eBay a collector can possibly fall victim to a seller looking to make a quick score and vanish, whereas the major auction houses like REA are less likely to offer a compromised or fake slab, so one knows what they are getting is legit. Of course the most established Ebay sellers have this same positive thing going for them as well. But if I see a card I want being offered by a Lipset or REA versus a random ebay seller with whom I (or other collectors I ask) am not familiar, I'm more comfortable bidding with the REA.
<< <i>
<< <i><<Exactly what kind of proof would you ask Tim to provide to demonstrate to you that there are honest auction houses out there?>> >>
This is one of those instances in which proof is definitely not possible. But human nature being what it is, it would be wise to assume there are plenty of dishonest ones. It wouldn't at all surprise me to know that most "reputable" auction houses (maybe all of them) have run up bids. There's way too much incentive to do so. If a bidder has a $2,000 max bid, and no one else bids beyond $1,200, and that card usually goes for around $2,000, they would not only lose out on higher commissions, but the severe dissatisfaction of the seller, and possible future business. If the seller were someone they did a lot of business with, and/or the item in questions was 5 or 6 figures, all the more reason for them to engage in this behavior if they feel no one is watching.
The proof should not be on the bidders and we should NOT be assuming that the auction houses are honest. It should be on the auction houses to provide more transparency (like an ebay) to at least give some more assurance that this sort of thing isn't going on. The way that card auction houses run, it's a black box for bidders and the only assurance you have is their declared policy. As we know in life, it's never that wise to rely on seller representations when buying something. >>
Actually, no- that wouldn't be wise at all, because making that assumption could cost you $1000's of dollars. The best course of action would be to bid late on every lot, and to put in bids of about 70% of market value on every lot where that's still possible. If you win some of these lots you can be reasonably sure the house is honest. If you don't win any of them then you can drive on.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I also put no stock in reference to private sales when there is zero proof of their existence. >>
That would be incorrect. They happen all the time. I have proof because I have been involved in MANY of them. >>
Yeah and so have I. And you're kidding yourself if you think I'd take your word for it when it comes to evaluating the price of something unless there is verifiable 3rd party proof of it.
Sometimes people here act like they want to be scammed ... believing and trusting way too much in people and systems that they are completely blind to. Then after they get scammed they come here complaining about it when they had been warned many times in advance.
If you can't see how and why the auction house structure is setup to scam you then you're exactly who they are looking for.
And if you don't care about the money then that's fine. >>
I really couldn't care less if you take my word for it or not. Regarding the third-party auction houses that you loathe so much, I'm certain some level of shilling goes on. That's why I adjust my bids accordingly and utilize historical data from the best (and most reputable) places I can find to help determine value. Just like you enjoy opening rack packs with long-sleeved black shirts and blue gloves, I have my own little idiosyncrasies. Data. I like to look at data. Lots and lots of data.
I think we all know where you stand with regards to third-party auction houses, Paul. Not sure why you feel the need to continue with the bluster and bombast. >>
Shhhh.. .enough talk about data. You'll scare the natives.
thanks for the links. saw this thread hot thread section and glad i read i and now i see why it is there!
.
<< <i>I'm not sure who is this thou fellow, but I'm sure I'm holier than him. And probably better looking too. >>
Having seen photos of you both, thou is a lot purdier.
Tabe
It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
<< <i>Very surprised this thread did not go *poof*.
It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. >>
It may have not gone "poof" but it has had several hair cuts along the way!!