<< <i>Excerpts from a post by a coin dealer on Canadian coin message board Coincommunity.com " I have seen these coins..very very nice..fasten your seat belts..374 bags of untouched coins that show very little signs of abuse..Only the best are being released....these coins were only moved twice in 100 years" >>
how does this compare to the pictures? does he mean pristine?
Apparently in the run up to WWI there were heavy withdrawals of gold from Canadian Banks . Fearing a run on the banks, in August 1914 the government suspended the gold standard and no longer would convert bills into gold. The gold standard was not reinstituted in Canada until 1926. This probably explains why more of the 1912 and 1913 $5 and $10 coins made it into circulation but most of the 1914s stayed in the vaults.
The quotes I found on the Canadian MB didn't have any follow ups or further clarification of the dealers comments in the thread.
<< <i> This probably explains why more of the 1912 and 1913 $5 and $10 coins made it into circulation but most of the 1914s stayed in the vaults. >>
and the story ends with most of the 1914 $10 mintage being melted - save for 14,949 coins........or maybe a few more that made it out and were released.
<< <i>No reference to if this was one of the melties, hand picked or premium. One would think that they would take one of the top pieces to show off in a video like this though... This one is pretty baggy, IMO. >>
Until you see the coins in hand - forget about pics, videos, etc. It's only an assumption. You know the definition of "assume" right?
When we receive them and post pics and grades from TPG's - then we will know if they did a good job at selecting these coins.
If the RCM only released photos and videos of the super nice pristine coins from this hoard ,what would all the customers expect to recieve? Makes complete sense to me to lower expectations rather than deal with thousands of pissed customers that expected "perfect" coins.From reading the Canadian boards apparently the RCM released some older silver dollars and the collectors that got the lower grade mint state coins had hissy fits. As many have pointed out here this sale will be like the GSA dollars- some big winners,many happy collectors and some will end up with "loser in a knife fight coins". From what I've read (1914 freeze on gold release from banks and estimates of the coins to be released) there are likely to be many many more 14 tens to choose from ,so a nicer hand selected coin is likely (this is borne out by the released photos where the 14 tens definitely look like the nicest images). The other likely outcome is that many many more 14s are also likely to be melted and this coin could become the lowest mintage. The downside is that there will be lots of 14 $10 ms examples available. Worst case scenario I payed a small premium over bullion prices for some low mintage gold coins. Another interesting thread on the Canadian boards is that many collectors hesitated to purchase these due to taxes on collectible coins (which vary widely from Provence to Provence). Apparently there are no taxes on bullion or collectible coins shipped to the US.
No reference to if this was one of the melties, hand picked or premium. One would think that they would take one of the top pieces to show off in a video like this though... This one is pretty baggy, IMO. >>
Looks like it's of MS64 quality to me. But could be as low as 63 or as high as 65. $5 and larger old gold tends to get graded about 1 pt looser than silver coinage. The busy reverse on these coins is somewhat similar to the $20 Libs. And those reverses are almost always nice. It's the portrait obverse that is almost always the weak side. With a fresh hoard like this I would expect MS65 and MS66 coins popping up. But if everyone gets 61-64 quality, it would be a bit disappointing. But someone will get a 66/67... unless the hired expert was paid in his choice of the best dozen or so coins.
The extant slab pop of MS64 US $5 libs of all dates is probably around 10,000 - 20,000 coins. They cost around $1025-1050 today. The extant slab pops of MS64 US $10 Libs of all dates is probably <15,000 coins with $10 Indians possibly < 20,000 coins. They sell for around $1500-1600 each. The prices of these in 63 and 64 grade are in the same range as these Canadian gold coins.
Seems like a decent deal on these old Canadian gold coins. The design is quite attractive imo. In any case it's old classic untouched gold. Wish I had heard about it earlier. But an 1880-1908 $5 Lib in MS64 at <$1050 is a good value too. Fwiw generic choice/gem MS smaller gold ($1's to $10's) is far cheaper today than they were in 2006 with gold at $725/ounce. They've gotten cheaper and cheaper as the price of gold has advanced. The declining collector interest has far overshadowed any gold content price gain. The bulk of those coins also came from hidden hoards. May still be a number of hoards out there.
<< <i>Did the king like to knife fight? I was wondering if what I saw was as minted. >>
Some GSA's are hacked up as well. However, the US Gov. Released ALL of the silver dollars they had - even some circulated ones in blue packs.
The RCM hand picked 30,000 coins from 245,000 in the hoard - Which leads me to believe that the coins offered are not low end 61's - but 62's at least.
^less than 13% of the hoard was up to the quality the RCM would offer the public. They will be nice.
When any hoard is sold, there is always the same hesitation with people thinking that the market will be blown. Just look at the $20's from the SS Central America..
Eventually all of the coins will be absorbed by the market - and prices will recover from the initial drop (from flippers).
There is a good possibility that the 1914 $10 could emerge from this event as a low mintage coin. However, there are a few things needed:
1.The contents of the hoard must be primarily 1914 coins - as indicated by the historical record as well as the amount of 1914 $10's offered. -Higher Catalog mint state prices on these coins (than the rest of the $10's ) leads me to believe that there were few actually released in 1914.
2. The amount of 1914 $10's officially melted must exceed 100,000 IMO - To be considered a low mintage key.
3. A revised net mintage MUST me avalable from the RCM (Original mintage - Amount Offically melted = Net mintage). This must be done by date and avalable to collectors.
IMO the $5's are more collectable because they are less intrinsically valuable. I think the price range of these coins makes them more collectable - more collectors can afford them.
3. A revised net mintage MUST me available from the RCM (Original mintage - Amount Officially melted = Net mintage). This must be done by date and available to collectors.
Good luck. Governments so often do not care about such coin geek issues. Remember how tough it was to get our mint to give us an estimate of how many 2008 with reverse of 2008 ASE coins they made? They might surprise though.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>3. A revised net mintage MUST me avalable from the RCM (Original mintage - Amount Offically melted = Net mintage). This must be done by date and avalable to collectors. >>
You mean like the U.S. Mint did when they melted earlier issued dollars to produce the 1921 Morgans? Good luck with that!
I think we have a much better chance of the RCM being responsible and not only performing a thorough audit, but also publishing the audit in a timely manner.
<< <i>Totally different scenario with the Morgans. Not the same situation here. >>
Yeah, you're probably right. There's no way anybody back then could have ever imagined that keeping track of the coins being melted would ever matter to anyone.
<< <i>I hope they sealed the coins in something so they can't be replaced/switched. I haven't seen a picture yet of the total packaging around the coin. >>
the only thing preventing switching will be a sealed box, hopefully.
Good point. I suspect (and expect) they may just be sent in a coin capsule. That's OK by me, and many will probably go to TPG for grading anyway. I think this is a cool offering and look forward to receiving the coins I ordered.
"• The coins, encased in capsules featuring gold holographic security seals, are presented in an exclusive Canadian maple wood case that prominently features all six premium coins. The case also features a certificate of authenticity, as well as an original cloth bag that held the coins in the Bank of Canada vault and an authentic identification tag. The case is protected by a black beauty box."
-directly from the $12k set description on the RCM site
Looks like I'll have to shell out some $$ to join ATS so I can get my '13 $5 in that holder. As for the freebies, I guess I have enough to crackout or regrade. So, I guess I'll just have to join ATS so I can get my '13 $5 piece holdered...UNLESS our hosts decide to add the 'Hoard' info....(nudge nudge, wink wink to our hosts.... )
Be nice to see multi coin slabs for the 3 $5, the 3 $10 and a six coin set. I got all 3 $10 but only 2 1913 $5's. Hesitated just long enough to miss a complete set. Can't wait to get them. Richard
I don't understand why the mint doesn't ship these out right away. That alone undoubtedly lost them sales for those who wanted to buy them as holiday gifts. They've only had them for 100 years and can't seem to be able to ship them? Well, at least they made them available for sale. I suspect that if sales are slow for the remaining $10 they will remove the 3-coin limit -- or increase the limit. We will see. I look forward to receiving the ones that I have ordered. Good luck to all who have orders in, and am anxious to see how these ultimately end up grading with your favorite TPG.
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
Does anyone else's order show "processing"? I've never ordered from rcm and not sure if they will take my cc. Maybe just being paranoid or something, can't wait to see this bad boy in hand
Comments
<< <i>Excerpts from a post by a coin dealer on Canadian coin message board Coincommunity.com " I have seen these coins..very very nice..fasten your seat belts..374 bags of untouched coins that show very little signs of abuse..Only the best are being released....these coins were only moved twice in 100 years" >>
how does this compare to the pictures? does he mean pristine?
The quotes I found on the Canadian MB didn't have any follow ups or further clarification of the dealers comments in the thread.
<< <i> This probably explains why more of the 1912 and 1913 $5 and $10 coins made it into circulation but most of the 1914s stayed in the vaults. >>
and the story ends with most of the 1914 $10 mintage being melted - save for 14,949 coins........or maybe a few more that made it out and were released.
The making of a rare coin.
<< <i>No reference to if this was one of the melties, hand picked or premium. One would think that they would take one of the top pieces to show off in a video like this though... This one is pretty baggy, IMO. >>
Until you see the coins in hand - forget about pics, videos, etc. It's only an assumption. You know the definition of "assume" right?
When we receive them and post pics and grades from TPG's - then we will know if they did a good job at selecting these coins.
From what I've read (1914 freeze on gold release from banks and estimates of the coins to be released) there are likely to be many many more 14 tens to choose from ,so a nicer hand selected coin is likely (this is borne out by the released photos where the 14 tens definitely look like the nicest images). The other likely outcome is that many many more 14s are also likely to be melted and this coin could become the lowest mintage. The downside is that there will be lots of 14 $10 ms examples available. Worst case scenario I payed a small premium over bullion prices for some low mintage gold coins.
Another interesting thread on the Canadian boards is that many collectors hesitated to purchase these due to taxes on collectible coins (which vary widely from Provence to Provence). Apparently there are no taxes on bullion or collectible coins shipped to the US.
hope best
<< <i>RCM Youtube 3d video of one ofthe 1912 $5 coins
No reference to if this was one of the melties, hand picked or premium. One would think that they would take one of the top pieces to show off in a video like this though... This one is pretty baggy, IMO. >>
Looks like it's of MS64 quality to me. But could be as low as 63 or as high as 65. $5 and larger old gold tends to get graded about 1 pt looser than silver coinage.
The busy reverse on these coins is somewhat similar to the $20 Libs. And those reverses are almost always nice. It's the portrait obverse that is almost always the weak side.
With a fresh hoard like this I would expect MS65 and MS66 coins popping up. But if everyone gets 61-64 quality, it would be a bit disappointing. But someone will get a 66/67...
unless the hired expert was paid in his choice of the best dozen or so coins.
The extant slab pop of MS64 US $5 libs of all dates is probably around 10,000 - 20,000 coins. They cost around $1025-1050 today.
The extant slab pops of MS64 US $10 Libs of all dates is probably <15,000 coins with $10 Indians possibly < 20,000 coins. They sell for around $1500-1600 each.
The prices of these in 63 and 64 grade are in the same range as these Canadian gold coins.
Seems like a decent deal on these old Canadian gold coins. The design is quite attractive imo. In any case it's old classic untouched gold. Wish I had heard about it earlier.
But an 1880-1908 $5 Lib in MS64 at <$1050 is a good value too. Fwiw generic choice/gem MS smaller gold ($1's to $10's) is far cheaper today than they were in 2006 with
gold at $725/ounce. They've gotten cheaper and cheaper as the price of gold has advanced. The declining collector interest has far overshadowed any gold content price gain.
The bulk of those coins also came from hidden hoards. May still be a number of hoards out there.
I wouldn't count on melted coins reducing the official mintage values.
<< <i>Did the king like to knife fight? I was wondering if what I saw was as minted. >>
Some GSA's are hacked up as well. However, the US Gov. Released ALL of the silver dollars they had - even some circulated ones in blue packs.
The RCM hand picked 30,000 coins from 245,000 in the hoard - Which leads me to believe that the coins offered are not low end 61's - but 62's at least.
^less than 13% of the hoard was up to the quality the RCM would offer the public. They will be nice.
When any hoard is sold, there is always the same hesitation with people thinking that the market will be blown. Just look at the $20's from the SS Central America..
Eventually all of the coins will be absorbed by the market - and prices will recover from the initial drop (from flippers).
There is a good possibility that the 1914 $10 could emerge from this event as a low mintage coin. However, there are a few things needed:
1.The contents of the hoard must be primarily 1914 coins - as indicated by the historical record as well as the amount of 1914 $10's offered.
-Higher Catalog mint state prices on these coins (than the rest of the $10's ) leads me to believe that there were few actually released in 1914.
2. The amount of 1914 $10's officially melted must exceed 100,000 IMO - To be considered a low mintage key.
3. A revised net mintage MUST me avalable from the RCM (Original mintage - Amount Offically melted = Net mintage). This must be done by date and avalable to collectors.
IMO the $5's are more collectable because they are less intrinsically valuable. I think the price range of these coins makes them more collectable - more collectors can afford them.
Good luck. Governments so often do not care about such coin geek issues. Remember how tough it was to get our mint to give us an estimate of how many 2008 with reverse of 2008 ASE coins they made? They might surprise though.
<< <i>3. A revised net mintage MUST me avalable from the RCM (Original mintage - Amount Offically melted = Net mintage). This must be done by date and avalable to collectors. >>
You mean like the U.S. Mint did when they melted earlier issued dollars to produce the 1921 Morgans? Good luck with that!
<< <i>You mean like the U.S. Mint did when they melted earlier issued dollars to produce the 1921 Morgans? Good luck with that! >>
Totally different scenario with the Morgans. Not the same situation here.
The RCM should do the responsible thing and account for the melt. They certainly have an accounting of every piece by date in the entire hoard.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Totally different scenario with the Morgans. Not the same situation here. >>
Yeah, you're probably right. There's no way anybody back then could have ever imagined that keeping track of the coins being melted would ever matter to anyone.
<< <i>I hope they sealed the coins in something so they can't be replaced/switched. I haven't seen a picture yet of the total packaging around the coin. >>
the only thing preventing switching will be a sealed box, hopefully.
-directly from the $12k set description on the RCM site
Good job RCM is that is the way we receive them.
Link
<< <i>Just saw this.
Link >>
Any word on PCGS also doing one?
Richard
my car art & My Ebay stuff
<< <i>Just saw this.
Link >>
Looks like I'll have to shell out some $$ to join ATS so I can get my '13 $5 in that holder. As for the freebies, I guess I have enough to crackout or regrade. So, I guess I'll just have to join ATS so I can get my '13 $5 piece holdered...UNLESS our hosts decide to add the 'Hoard' info....(nudge nudge, wink wink to our hosts....
Richard
my car art & My Ebay stuff
<< <i>
<< <i>Just saw this.
Link >>
Any word on PCGS also doing one?
Richard >>
I have it on good authority that PCGS will be offering a competing (but better) option.
<< <i>Has anyone received their coins yet, if not when will these be shipped out??? >>
If I am not mistaken their website said the coins will ship starting from 12/28.
<< <i>It's taking way too long to sell out the 13 and 14 $10 coins. >>
Well with 20,000 or so to sell, I'd expect a slow burn. A watched pot never boils, come back in a month and I'm sure will see some progress.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's taking way too long to sell out the 13 and 14 $10 coins. >>
Well with 20,000 or so to sell, I'd expect a slow burn. A watched pot never boils, come back in a month and I'm sure will see some progress.
Once I get my coins if I am happy with the condition I might order another hand select $10.
As for my status I am going to check my e-mail, I haven't looked for a couple of days.
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Mine is "processing" and it has been "processing" since Dec. 3rd. I'm sure that we'll be getting a shipping notice soon, maybe. >>
So im in good company, good to know
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole