<< <i>I'm not playing in the PCGS registry game so I prefer to buy coins. Don't care what holder they are in, and I even buy raw (although I usually send them in for slabbing later). >>
Frankly, I love raw coins and album collecting. But I also know that if I'm hit by a truck and my wife has to sell the coins, I don't want to think about her trying to sell the better ones raw and getting 50 cents on the dollar if she's lucky.
Here are a few Dahlonega gold coins that I bought that were not in PCGS holders when I bought them. The key is to have on your "PCGS glasses" when evaluating coins. The photos are courtesy of BluCC.
Purchased raw, 1988:
Purchased raw, 1994, ex-George Walton:
Purchased in NGC holder, 2003, with no provenance on the holder:
I do think people who limit themselves to only buying PCGS-certified coins are putting themselves at a disadvantage since there are plenty of decent coins located in non-PCGS holders or even raw.
I DO understand though, why people like their coins to be only-PCGS certified since PCGS-certified coins tend to bring stronger prices than other grading companies at auction.
<< <i> While my preference is to buy a PCGS/CAC coin, I will under certain circumstances buy PCGS, NGC/CAC or even NGC no CAC. As long as one does it with one's eyes wide open and weighs ALL the pros and cons appropriately, it's 100% ok to do.
One cannot complete a truly great classic set in this day and age by doing anything else.
That last sentence bears repeating. And although TDN did not mention raw coins, I have no doubt that he would also buy the right raw coin under the right circumstances. Bottom line is that if you want to build a truly great set of rare coins, you cannot ignore any opportunity to buy the right coin.
One more thing. For those of you that must have your coins in PCGS holders, and who don't have the confidence to buy a coin that will need to get graded by PCGS, there are plenty of dealers that can help you. Maybe that just means getting a second opinion on the coin and accepting a degree of risk. Maybe it means getting a guaranty of some sort from the dealer. (For example, you could agree to pay the dealer a predetermined profit if the coin crosses. Otherwise, the dealer is stuck with the coin.) Whatever it takes, just get it done. >>
Yup. I bought these two raw at auction and took my chances on the grades:
matrix, I highly doubt you like coins. Ive read many of your posts on other forums and all your topics are about if something is worth buying due to investment reasons and blah blah blah.
Its never about: "guys I love the look of the 2 cent coins, what should I look for when buying one". Your recent thread about buying one for investment proves my point
Go enjoy
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
You are right when I spend over 10k for a coin then yes it is for investment but the U.S coins I am buying or will be buying under that cash value are for the pleasure also and yes as any smart buyer there is a bonus if it goes up in value over time...that can allow me to make bigger trades down the road for other coins I may want then. This is a ''stupid'' game to see who is a more passionate collector....hey we all have the collecting gene so what if we have different ways of going about it. I don't like knowing I am spending money I worked HARD for just stay still and not fluctuate over time that is just been a human who looks out for his future and is not just spending here and there without care for my hard work I had to do to make that money. Been able to make money with a hobby I love is all the much better!!! And yes I love this hobby more than you can imagine. I spend 80% of my time off from work looking/reading/talking about coins.
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread. I have only sent one submission to PCGS in the last six yrs but serveral to ats, it only makes sense with copper coins these days. >>
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS. Lance.
a guy collects coins all his life then dies unexpectedly, his family takes all his PCGS coins to a dealer and the dealer says "oh these are all PCGS i'll give you top dollar" yeah i understand the argument but i dont believe the result will be as expected
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
Really don't know why matrix1980 is getting such grief, and I won't repeat myself again from the other thread -- but the hilarious thing to note for those quick to post up kool-aid drinking sheep, is they might do a bit of research on joe-average coins' sell-through and price levels, comparing PCGS to NGC and others. I've read with great interest roadrunner's observations on this sort of thing during the market's downturn of the past few years.
On an individual level, any coin can "magically" become a PCGS coin, ya just gotta submit it. Now as to what grade you'll get vs. what you expect -- that depends entirely on your experience and skills, along with a dash of luck (good or bad.)
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread. I have only sent one submission to PCGS in the last six yrs but serveral to ats, it only makes sense with copper coins these days. >>
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS. Lance. >>
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread. I have only sent one submission to PCGS in the last six yrs but serveral to ats, it only makes sense with copper coins these days. >>
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS. Lance. >>
Actually it has nothing to do with the perceived higher grades given ats, but rather the lack of PCGS standing behind their opinion. Ever since PCGS decided to retire the color guarantee I decided not to send any more copper coins in, I simply do not wish to support a company that refuses to stand behind its product. I would think that being a copper collector that you could appreciate a company thats accountable for its opinion, perhaps the higher resale is of more importantance for you.
You are right when I spend over 10k for a coin then yes it is for investment but the U.S coins I am buying or will be buying under that cash value are for the pleasure also and yes as any smart buyer there is a bonus if it goes up in value over time...that can allow me to make bigger trades down the road for other coins I may want then. This is a ''stupid'' game to see who is a more passionate collector....hey we all have the collecting gene so what if we have different ways of going about it. I don't like knowing I am spending money I worked HARD for just stay still and not fluctuate over time that is just been a human who looks out for his future and is not just spending here and there without care for my hard work I had to do to make that money. Been able to make money with a hobby I love is all the much better!!! And yes I love this hobby more than you can imagine. I spend 80% of my time off from work looking/reading/talking about coins. >>
Perhaps it is a stupid game. However, as a long time collector and long time observer, I can tell you that the more passionate collectors tend to do much better financially than those that are primarily interested in financial returns. Sounds backwards doesn't it? How can that be? It is because the passionate collectors know their coins and dealers, and the investors tend to ignore that stuff. The odds are stacked against coin investors, and the odds get worse for those that have little passion for coins. It is the way the coin game is setup. Those that know their coins tend to do much better financially than coin investors that don't have a passion for the hobby.
/edit to add: as for the original thought, I have zero problems with a collector choosing what they want to collect. Novices can fall into many traps, and perhaps that is what happened here, but perhaps not. There are certainly worse traps to fall into.
This is why I am asking a lot of questions and have also asked for links to dealers for particular coin series I want to put my money into. In the next 2-3 years I will try and attend the major auction in Florida about once every 2 years that way I will make contacts and walk the floor for the best coins I can find for the best prices. Plus I will not have to worry about my item lost or stolen in the mail for now I will buy some coins in the +- 1000$ range and if I want to buy a more expensive coin it will wait till I get on a auction floor or at a dealers kiosk in Florida.
This is why I am asking a lot of questions and have also asked for links to dealers for particular coin series I want to put my money into. >>
Your quick reply indicates a seeming need to be right, and what seems to be a big ego. These are other things that will almost certainly limit your financial success. Good luck, but if I were giving advice, I'd tell you to learn to love the actual coins, the actual hobby of collecting, or forget the whole thing. The way you are going, the odds are high that you will lose money, perhaps lots of money.
What I always tell people is to collect what you like and enjoy the hobby. The few collectors that do well financially tend to share certain traits: an excellent eye for grading, superior access to coins, market knowledge from endless hours spent on a hobby they love. The average collector is doing well to break even after five years. If that bothers you, probably best to find another hobby, or get the training needed to be a part-time dealer and commit the considerable time that might involve.
My quick reply = I have lots of time on my hands (and can't fall asleep until later in the night) in the evening nothing more nothing less!! Judging people to fast also makes people make errors...!!! Please don't try and analyze a person over the net in a couple of minutes/days/weeks. I have a whole life behind me I don't go trying to analyze you based on this site as a whole person that would be foolish of me. I know how tempting it is to want to judge but some times we must hold back and take our time to make a good idea of the FULL picture.
My quick reply = I have lots of time on my hands (and can't fall asleep until later in the night) in the evening nothing more nothing less!! Judging people to fast also makes people make errors...!!! Please don't try and analyze a person over the net in a couple of minutes/days/weeks. I have a whole life behind me I don't go trying to analyze you based on this site as a whole person that would be foolish of me. I know how tempting it is to want to judge but some times we must hold back and take our time to make a good idea of the FULL picture. >>
Redtiger is giving you sound advice. You should start studying and learning about coins and their markets with all this free time you have. If you want to have a shot at making money, you need to learn what a properly graded coin looks like. You should also be able to detect a cleaned, tooled, or damaged coin. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
The other option is to flounder around an internet forum and ask people you don't even know what coins to buy as an investment. Don't you think if we actually knew with 100% certainty which coins will be winners, we would be buying them instead of telling you?
I would NEVER buy a coin in PCGS plastic, what fun is that I want to send it in myself. No just kidding I'll buy a coin no matter what its in or not in, as long as its got the look and price I think fits my collection. Matrix don't be so quick to close off so many options, there are plenty of good coins in other TPG plastic, as well as bad coins. Go to a coin show and look at lots of coins in hand in plastic, this may help to educate you.
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread. I have only sent one submission to PCGS in the last six yrs but serveral to ats, it only makes sense with copper coins these days. >>
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS. Lance. >>
Actually it has nothing to do with the perceived higher grades given ats, but rather the lack of PCGS standing behind their opinion. Ever since PCGS decided to retire the color guarantee I decided not to send any more copper coins in, I simply do not wish to support a company that refuses to stand behind its product. I would think that being a copper collector that you could appreciate a company thats accountable for its opinion, perhaps the higher resale is of more importantance for you. >>
Perhaps. But when it comes to collecting on that guarantee you might find it flimsy. PCGS has made a half dozen payouts to me on copper coins that didn't merit the grade. NGC has refused to budge on every one.
I've got an example of a severe rim ding hidden behind an NGC holder prong. When I showed them the coin...an 1843 petite head, large letters they graded AU58...I was stone-walled. The best NGC would do is reslab it at the same grade so I could pass it along to another buyer. Lance.
For over 20 years, I have been buying coins in every conceivable holder, including ICG and Segs, along with PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. Most of the non-PCGS coins have been crossed( all but 3), some at the same grade, and many a grade lower.
But if you are not good at grading, and do not like the submission process, there is nothing wrong in buying only PCGS graded coins.
I would have missed out on many of the rarities in my sets, had I chose to exclude the other TPG services. And would not have made the profits I have garnered.
Examples: 1912-S Lib nickel crossed from NGC 66 to PCGS 66--making it one of 8 66's, and a $15K profit. 1811 sm 8 CBH, crossed from NGC 66 to PCGS 66, increasing its value from 13,000 to 40,000. 1830 sm O CBH, crossing from ICG 64 to PCGS 65. 1908 lib nickel, crossing from ANACS PR 68 to PCGS 68.
1815/2 CBH crossing from NGC 64 to PC 64. And many others.
Learn how the TPG's grade, and understand that many coins are high end for grade, and can be upgraded into the holder of choice. Raw 1803 sm 3 early dollar into a PCGS AU 55+.
One of my favorite "collections" is a date run of CWT's struck over US coins. They are all NGC since PCGS doesn't grade CWT's.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
I buy coins in either PCGS or NGC holders. I have limited myself to those two brands because they are easier to sell when or if the time comes. Beyond that parameter, I buy coins, not holders. I also do not play the crossover game. More of my coins are in PCGS than NGC holders perhaps because the PCGS grade matches my taste more often. Still my most expensive coin, a 1796 No Stars quarter eagle, is in an NGC holder as well as a round 1915-S Pan-Pac $50 gold. I'm not shy about spending the big bucks for an NGC coin if I like it.
Maybe I'm crazy for not following the herd, but the most important thing I get out of this hobby is fun. Money is important, but it's not the main driver for me. The coin is the thing for me, and I'm not going to pass on a hard to find piece just because it's in what some people view as the "wrong" holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
That is a good point. When I bought my 1796 No Stars quarter eagle at an major auction, one of the things that probably allowed me to acquire it within my budget was fact that it was in an NGC holder. If it had been a PCGS coin, I probably would not own it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
"Never" is just such a strong word. Most of the "You Suck" awards on here are given to folks who bought raw and then submitted to PCGS. That hand-re-engraved Superbird quarter that recently sold is a good example. Bought raw for what, $25, sold for $2,500? Then there was that incorrect finish 2007 platinum coin, wrong metal Ike found in a roll at a bank.. the list goes on and on.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
That is a good point. When I bought my 1796 No Stars quarter eagle at an major auction, one of the things that probably allowed me to acquire it within my budget was fact that it was in an NGC holder. If it had been a PCGS coin, I probably would not own it.
>>
It's a gorgeous little coin; shame to have it sandwiched in NGC's ugly white prongs. Frankly I'm not a fan at all of the prongs holders from PCGS or NGC, but am at least strongly in favor of PCGS's clear ones.
Do I win a prize if I go over to the NGc board and find a thread titled "I would NEVER buy a coin that is not graded by NGC"...because I'm sure there are a few.
A topic like this here is as rediculous as posting a pro Red Sox comment on the Yankees message board.
By definition, everone here is partial to PCGS...or else they wouldn't be here. And vice versa the NGC board.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
I disagree with the "full of yourself" comment. Those of us who have spent years learning how to grade coins by reading the books, looking at many thousands of coins, tokens and medals, and buying and selling (in my case) several thousand items deserve an little more credit. Sure, coins in PCGS holders often bring more because there are fair number of collectors who will pay more for a PCGS graded coin. That is a reflection of a brand name preference.
BUT for those of us who want the coin, the opportunity to buy a piece that is just as nice or better in the NGC holder for less money is most welcome. You can disagree with us, but it hardly make us into egomaniacs when we express our observations as to what we have seen firsthand at coin shows and auctions.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
And yes, i'm full of myself quite often. Jealous? >>
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
I disagree with the "full of yourself" comment. Those of us who have spent years learning how to grade coins by reading the books, looking at many thousands of coins, tokens and medals, and buying and selling (in my case) several thousand items deserve an little more credit. Sure, coins in PCGS holders often bring more because there are fair number of collectors who will pay more for a PCGS graded coin. That is a reflection of a brand name preference.
BUT for those of us who want the coin, the opportunity to buy a piece that is just as nice or better in the NGC holder for less money is most welcome. You can disagree with us, but it hardly make us into egomaniacs when we express our observations as to what we have seen firsthand at coin shows and auctions. >>
I too Bill, have studied coins a long time (not for as long or as in-depth as you, as it's not my profession.) I too have bought coins raw and in all holders. But for some to pat themselves on the back because they feel confident enough to seek out non-PCGS coins is really not needed. Very few coins are so special and rare that there aren't quite a plethora to choose from (your no stars quarter eagle being an exception) -- so many, in fact, that to deride someone for only wanting to consider PCGS-graded coins is quite small-minded, indeed. Especially since the coin is the coin is the coin, break any coin out of any holder and it is what it is.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
And yes, i'm full of myself quite often. Jealous? >>
As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Confidence in your own ability to grade is great. Cherry picking raw rarities is really cool. Picking out nice coins and potential upgrades in a variety of holders can be rewarding.
But...
What about your ability to detect counterfeit coins?
How much money do you have tied up in your collection? What's the average amount you spend on each coin? Even if you consider yourself a pure collector who is not concerned with investment returns, you may eventually reach the point when you realize you have a lot of money "invested" in your collection.
At that point, it becomes prudent to protect that investment in every possible way. Having your coins graded by PCGS is one way to help protect that investment. It's not foolproof, of course. But I think it's pretty smart.
<< <i>Confidence in your own ability to grade is great. Cherry picking raw rarities is really cool. Picking out nice coins and potential upgrades in a variety of holders can be rewarding.
But...
What about your ability to detect counterfeit coins?
How much money do you have tied up in your collection? What's the average amount you spend on each coin? Even if you consider yourself a pure collector who is not concerned with investment returns, you may eventually reach the point when you realize you have a lot of money "invested" in your collection.
At that point, it becomes prudent to protect that investment in every possible way. Having your coins graded by PCGS is one way to help protect that investment. It's not foolproof, of course. But I think it's pretty smart. >>
I agree with both Bill and MidLifeCrisis. There are some coins I have that are simply prudent to have certified, for liquidity and assurance of genuine vs. counterfeit, not so much for me as for any heirs who might one day wish to sell 'em. Other coins (the vast majority) in my collection aren't certified; no need to do so when the value is primarily in the metal content, or it's a common date VF Buffalo nickel -- that sort of thing.
<< <i>As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available. >>
Interesting. Sounds like you guys have a real supply problem in the US coin market.
Edited to add: My collection is in PCGS tombs for the same reasons. I just don't think buying PCGS graded coins vs making the grade by submitting raw or crossing over makes financial sense if you're looking for returns.
<< <i>As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available. >>
Interesting. Sounds like you guys have a real supply problem in the US coin market.
Edited to add: My collection is in PCGS tombs for the same reasons. I just don't think buying PCGS graded coins vs making the grade by submitting raw or crossing over makes financial sense if you're looking for returns. >>
More power to you for being able to make the grades that make you money -- it takes skills; along with the willingness to accept possibly getting burned now and then. If you can get ahead more often than not...
I don't bother much trying to look with the motivation of slabbing and flipping for profit, but suppose I would try if a deal were to present itself.
<< <i>How about this: I would never buy a Trade Dollar NOT in a PCGS holder that I haven't run through this board for an authenticity review. >>
I would think there are a few US series like that. Anything colonial and up to 1830's or so? >>
Surely colonial stuff. PCGS and others do slab colonials, though it's not often preferred by collectors of them. Were I to buy any I'd have to have confidence in the dealer. Fortunately there are many around as trustworthy sources -- pistareen and CRO come immediately to mind.
You have to trust your eye and your experience as a collector/dealer and do what is confortable for you, but there are opportunities out there in all holders. I just had a 19th century proof coin that was in an ANACS PR-61 holder grade PR-64 at PCGS. Now, I think PCGS got it right and ANACS was overly harsh. But, it was in an ANACS PR-61 holder.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
<< <i>I wish there were more coin collectors participating on this board. Sad thread. >>
I'm guessing you have a pretty narrow definition of a coin collector.
What about this thread is sad to you? >>
I think he's sad that people care more about the slab than the actual coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
<< <i>I'm not playing in the PCGS registry game so I prefer to buy coins. Don't care what holder they are in, and I even buy raw (although I usually send them in for slabbing later). >>
Frankly, I love raw coins and album collecting. But I also know that if I'm hit by a truck and my wife has to sell the coins, I don't want to think about her trying to sell the better ones raw and getting 50 cents on the dollar if she's lucky.
Purchased raw, 1988:
Purchased raw, 1994, ex-George Walton:
Purchased in NGC holder, 2003, with no provenance on the holder:
I do think people who limit themselves to only buying PCGS-certified coins are putting themselves at a disadvantage since there are plenty of decent coins located in non-PCGS holders or even raw.
I DO understand though, why people like their coins to be only-PCGS certified since PCGS-certified coins tend to bring stronger prices than other grading companies at auction.
<< <i>i would never ever turn down a nice raw coin that i wanted >>
<< <i>
While my preference is to buy a PCGS/CAC coin, I will under certain circumstances buy PCGS, NGC/CAC or even NGC no CAC. As long as one does it with one's eyes wide open and weighs ALL the pros and cons appropriately, it's 100% ok to do.
One cannot complete a truly great classic set in this day and age by doing anything else.
That last sentence bears repeating. And although TDN did not mention raw coins, I have no doubt that he would also buy the right raw coin under the right circumstances. Bottom line is that if you want to build a truly great set of rare coins, you cannot ignore any opportunity to buy the right coin.
One more thing. For those of you that must have your coins in PCGS holders, and who don't have the confidence to buy a coin that will need to get graded by PCGS, there are plenty of dealers that can help you. Maybe that just means getting a second opinion on the coin and accepting a degree of risk. Maybe it means getting a guaranty of some sort from the dealer. (For example, you could agree to pay the dealer a predetermined profit if the coin crosses. Otherwise, the dealer is stuck with the coin.) Whatever it takes, just get it done. >>
Yup. I bought these two raw at auction and took my chances on the grades:
Its never about: "guys I love the look of the 2 cent coins, what should I look for when buying one". Your recent thread about buying one for investment proves my point
Go enjoy
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
You are right when I spend over 10k for a coin then yes it is for investment but the U.S coins I am buying or will be buying under that cash value are for the pleasure also and yes as any smart buyer there is a bonus if it goes up in value over time...that can allow me to make bigger trades down the road for other coins I may want then. This is a ''stupid'' game to see who is a more passionate collector....hey we all have the collecting gene so what if we have different ways of going about it. I don't like knowing I am spending money I worked HARD for just stay still and not fluctuate over time that is just been a human who looks out for his future and is not just spending here and there without care for my hard work I had to do to make that money. Been able to make money with a hobby I love is all the much better!!! And yes I love this hobby more than you can imagine. I spend 80% of my time off from work looking/reading/talking about coins.
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<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread.
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS.
Lance.
On an individual level, any coin can "magically" become a PCGS coin, ya just gotta submit it. Now as to what grade you'll get vs. what you expect -- that depends entirely on your experience and skills, along with a dash of luck (good or bad.)
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<< <i>
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread.
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS.
Lance. >>
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<< <i>
<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread.
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS.
Lance. >>
Actually it has nothing to do with the perceived higher grades given ats, but rather the lack of PCGS standing behind their opinion. Ever since PCGS decided to retire the color guarantee I decided not to send any more copper coins in, I simply do not wish to support a company that refuses to stand behind its product. I would think that being a copper collector that you could appreciate a company thats accountable for its opinion, perhaps the higher resale is of more importantance for you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>mkman123
You are right when I spend over 10k for a coin then yes it is for investment but the U.S coins I am buying or will be buying under that cash value are for the pleasure also and yes as any smart buyer there is a bonus if it goes up in value over time...that can allow me to make bigger trades down the road for other coins I may want then. This is a ''stupid'' game to see who is a more passionate collector....hey we all have the collecting gene so what if we have different ways of going about it. I don't like knowing I am spending money I worked HARD for just stay still and not fluctuate over time that is just been a human who looks out for his future and is not just spending here and there without care for my hard work I had to do to make that money. Been able to make money with a hobby I love is all the much better!!! And yes I love this hobby more than you can imagine. I spend 80% of my time off from work looking/reading/talking about coins. >>
Perhaps it is a stupid game. However, as a long time collector and long time observer, I can tell you that the more passionate collectors tend to do much better financially than those that are primarily interested in financial returns. Sounds backwards doesn't it? How can that be? It is because the passionate collectors know their coins and dealers, and the investors tend to ignore that stuff. The odds are stacked against coin investors, and the odds get worse for those that have little passion for coins. It is the way the coin game is setup. Those that know their coins tend to do much better financially than coin investors that don't have a passion for the hobby.
/edit to add: as for the original thought, I have zero problems with a collector choosing what they want to collect. Novices can fall into many traps, and perhaps that is what happened here, but perhaps not. There are certainly worse traps to fall into.
This is why I am asking a lot of questions and have also asked for links to dealers for particular coin series I want to put my money into. In the next 2-3 years I will try and attend the major auction in Florida about once every 2 years that way I will make contacts and walk the floor for the best coins I can find for the best prices. Plus I will not have to worry about my item lost or stolen in the mail for now I will buy some coins in the +- 1000$ range and if I want to buy a more expensive coin it will wait till I get on a auction floor or at a dealers kiosk in Florida.
<< <i>RedTiger
This is why I am asking a lot of questions and have also asked for links to dealers for particular coin series I want to put my money into. >>
Your quick reply indicates a seeming need to be right, and what seems to be a big ego. These are other things that will almost certainly limit your financial success. Good luck, but if I were giving advice, I'd tell you to learn to love the actual coins, the actual hobby of collecting, or forget the whole thing. The way you are going, the odds are high that you will lose money, perhaps lots of money.
What I always tell people is to collect what you like and enjoy the hobby. The few collectors that do well financially tend to share certain traits: an excellent eye for grading, superior access to coins, market knowledge from endless hours spent on a hobby they love. The average collector is doing well to break even after five years. If that bothers you, probably best to find another hobby, or get the training needed to be a part-time dealer and commit the considerable time that might involve.
My quick reply = I have lots of time on my hands (and can't fall asleep until later in the night) in the evening nothing more nothing less!! Judging people to fast also makes people make errors...!!! Please don't try and analyze a person over the net in a couple of minutes/days/weeks. I have a whole life behind me I don't go trying to analyze you based on this site as a whole person that would be foolish of me. I know how tempting it is to want to judge but some times we must hold back and take our time to make a good idea of the FULL picture.
<< <i>RedTiger
My quick reply = I have lots of time on my hands (and can't fall asleep until later in the night) in the evening nothing more nothing less!! Judging people to fast also makes people make errors...!!! Please don't try and analyze a person over the net in a couple of minutes/days/weeks. I have a whole life behind me I don't go trying to analyze you based on this site as a whole person that would be foolish of me. I know how tempting it is to want to judge but some times we must hold back and take our time to make a good idea of the FULL picture. >>
Redtiger is giving you sound advice. You should start studying and learning about coins and their markets with all this free time you have. If you want to have a shot at making money, you need to learn what a properly graded coin looks like. You should also be able to detect a cleaned, tooled, or damaged coin. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
The other option is to flounder around an internet forum and ask people you don't even know what coins to buy as an investment. Don't you think if we actually knew with 100% certainty which coins will be winners, we would be buying them instead of telling you?
type2,CCHunter.
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<< <i>I'll buy a coin any which way, but if it's worth slabbing it is sent to PCGS. >>
I think most of us think the same way. >>
I guess I'm bucking the trend all the way around in this thread.
Interesting. Being a copper collector (I'm missing only 5 cents in a run from 1793 to 1958) I never turn to NGC for grading. I agree, however, that you'll get often get a better grade ATS.
Lance. >>
Actually it has nothing to do with the perceived higher grades given ats, but rather the lack of PCGS standing behind their opinion. Ever since PCGS decided to retire the color guarantee I decided not to send any more copper coins in, I simply do not wish to support a company that refuses to stand behind its product. I would think that being a copper collector that you could appreciate a company thats accountable for its opinion, perhaps the higher resale is of more importantance for you. >>
Perhaps. But when it comes to collecting on that guarantee you might find it flimsy. PCGS has made a half dozen payouts to me on copper coins that didn't merit the grade. NGC has refused to budge on every one.
I've got an example of a severe rim ding hidden behind an NGC holder prong. When I showed them the coin...an 1843 petite head, large letters they graded AU58...I was stone-walled. The best NGC would do is reslab it at the same grade so I could pass it along to another buyer.
Lance.
Most of the non-PCGS coins have been crossed( all but 3), some at the same grade, and many a grade lower.
But if you are not good at grading, and do not like the submission process, there is nothing wrong in buying only PCGS graded coins.
I would have missed out on many of the rarities in my sets, had I chose to exclude the other TPG services. And would not have
made the profits I have garnered.
Examples: 1912-S Lib nickel crossed from NGC 66 to PCGS 66--making it one of 8 66's, and a $15K profit.
1811 sm 8 CBH, crossed from NGC 66 to PCGS 66, increasing its value from 13,000 to 40,000.
1830 sm O CBH, crossing from ICG 64 to PCGS 65.
1908 lib nickel, crossing from ANACS PR 68 to PCGS 68.
1815/2 CBH crossing from NGC 64 to PC 64. And many others.
Learn how the TPG's grade, and understand that many coins are high end for grade, and can be upgraded into the holder of choice.
Raw 1803 sm 3 early dollar into a PCGS AU 55+.
One of my favorite "collections" is a date run of CWT's struck over US coins. They are all NGC since PCGS doesn't grade CWT's.
Maybe I'm crazy for not following the herd, but the most important thing I get out of this hobby is fun. Money is important, but it's not the main driver for me. The coin is the thing for me, and I'm not going to pass on a hard to find piece just because it's in what some people view as the "wrong" holder.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
That is a good point. When I bought my 1796 No Stars quarter eagle at an major auction, one of the things that probably allowed me to acquire it within my budget was fact that it was in an NGC holder. If it had been a PCGS coin, I probably would not own it.
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please.
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<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
That is a good point. When I bought my 1796 No Stars quarter eagle at an major auction, one of the things that probably allowed me to acquire it within my budget was fact that it was in an NGC holder. If it had been a PCGS coin, I probably would not own it.
It's a gorgeous little coin; shame to have it sandwiched in NGC's ugly white prongs. Frankly I'm not a fan at all of the prongs holders from PCGS or NGC, but am at least strongly in favor of PCGS's clear ones.
A topic like this here is as rediculous as posting a pro Red Sox comment on the Yankees message board.
By definition, everone here is partial to PCGS...or else they wouldn't be here. And vice versa the NGC board.
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<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
I disagree with the "full of yourself" comment. Those of us who have spent years learning how to grade coins by reading the books, looking at many thousands of coins, tokens and medals, and buying and selling (in my case) several thousand items deserve an little more credit. Sure, coins in PCGS holders often bring more because there are fair number of collectors who will pay more for a PCGS graded coin. That is a reflection of a brand name preference.
BUT for those of us who want the coin, the opportunity to buy a piece that is just as nice or better in the NGC holder for less money is most welcome. You can disagree with us, but it hardly make us into egomaniacs when we express our observations as to what we have seen firsthand at coin shows and auctions.
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<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
And yes, i'm full of myself quite often. Jealous?
8 Reales Madness Collection
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<< <i>
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
And yes, i'm full of myself quite often. Jealous? >>
Hah! Not by a long shot.
We might make it to 100.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
I disagree with the "full of yourself" comment. Those of us who have spent years learning how to grade coins by reading the books, looking at many thousands of coins, tokens and medals, and buying and selling (in my case) several thousand items deserve an little more credit. Sure, coins in PCGS holders often bring more because there are fair number of collectors who will pay more for a PCGS graded coin. That is a reflection of a brand name preference.
BUT for those of us who want the coin, the opportunity to buy a piece that is just as nice or better in the NGC holder for less money is most welcome. You can disagree with us, but it hardly make us into egomaniacs when we express our observations as to what we have seen firsthand at coin shows and auctions. >>
I too Bill, have studied coins a long time (not for as long or as in-depth as you, as it's not my profession.) I too have bought coins raw and in all holders. But for some to pat themselves on the back because they feel confident enough to seek out non-PCGS coins is really not needed. Very few coins are so special and rare that there aren't quite a plethora to choose from (your no stars quarter eagle being an exception) -- so many, in fact, that to deride someone for only wanting to consider PCGS-graded coins is quite small-minded, indeed. Especially since the coin is the coin is the coin, break any coin out of any holder and it is what it is.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I hope more of you guys only buy PCGS slabbed coins. It grants me and other collectors an opportunity to get quality coins with less competition. >>
Full of yourself much? Reality check: there are fine coins in both holders but sometimes different series are graded to different standards. Just because you think you've "scored" on a coin in a non-PCGS holder doesn't necessarily mean you've come out ahead -- proof is in the pudding only when and if you sell. Please. >>
Both holders? I was more talking about raw coins that a lot of collectors don't touch due to not being able to authenticate or grade.
And yes, i'm full of myself quite often. Jealous? >>
As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available.
But...
What about your ability to detect counterfeit coins?
How much money do you have tied up in your collection? What's the average amount you spend on each coin? Even if you consider yourself a pure collector who is not concerned with investment returns, you may eventually reach the point when you realize you have a lot of money "invested" in your collection.
At that point, it becomes prudent to protect that investment in every possible way. Having your coins graded by PCGS is one way to help protect that investment. It's not foolproof, of course. But I think it's pretty smart.
<< <i>Confidence in your own ability to grade is great. Cherry picking raw rarities is really cool. Picking out nice coins and potential upgrades in a variety of holders can be rewarding.
But...
What about your ability to detect counterfeit coins?
How much money do you have tied up in your collection? What's the average amount you spend on each coin? Even if you consider yourself a pure collector who is not concerned with investment returns, you may eventually reach the point when you realize you have a lot of money "invested" in your collection.
At that point, it becomes prudent to protect that investment in every possible way. Having your coins graded by PCGS is one way to help protect that investment. It's not foolproof, of course. But I think it's pretty smart. >>
I agree with both Bill and MidLifeCrisis. There are some coins I have that are simply prudent to have certified, for liquidity and assurance of genuine vs. counterfeit, not so much for me as for any heirs who might one day wish to sell 'em. Other coins (the vast majority) in my collection aren't certified; no need to do so when the value is primarily in the metal content, or it's a common date VF Buffalo nickel -- that sort of thing.
<< <i>As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available. >>
Interesting. Sounds like you guys have a real supply problem in the US coin market.
Edited to add: My collection is in PCGS tombs for the same reasons. I just don't think buying PCGS graded coins vs making the grade by submitting raw or crossing over makes financial sense if you're looking for returns.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>As a collector I have not bought any expensive raw coins for long time because a lot of raw coins I've seen were raw for a reason. Even when something has looked good from a distance it turning out to be a problem when I really looked at it. For example I once saw a raw Classic Head $5 gold that looked to be MS-63 or 64 at first. When I put the strong glass on it, I found that the rim had been filed to remove an edge bump.
As a dealer I purchased 1877 Indian cents, 1909-S-VDB and other key date coins from collectors raw. I had all of those coins certified before I sold them, sometimes by "off brand" companies when the coins had problems that would have prevented them from getting a grade. When I was a dealer "genuine" holders did not exist. For the collector with limited experience, buying expensive coins raw is a real risk these days, especially with some much "Chinese junk" so widely available. >>
Interesting. Sounds like you guys have a real supply problem in the US coin market.
Edited to add: My collection is in PCGS tombs for the same reasons. I just don't think buying PCGS graded coins vs making the grade by submitting raw or crossing over makes financial sense if you're looking for returns. >>
More power to you for being able to make the grades that make you money -- it takes skills; along with the willingness to accept possibly getting burned now and then. If you can get ahead more often than not...
I don't bother much trying to look with the motivation of slabbing and flipping for profit, but suppose I would try if a deal were to present itself.
<< <i>How about this: I would never buy a Trade Dollar NOT in a PCGS holder that I haven't run through this board for an authenticity review.
I would think there are a few US series like that. Anything colonial and up to 1830's or so?
8 Reales Madness Collection
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>originalisbest, why are you so defensive? I thought my original comment was pretty lighthearted, but you took it pretty close to heart. >>
Eh, it's probably the moon affecting me (or some other such excuse.) I apologize.
<< <i>
<< <i>How about this: I would never buy a Trade Dollar NOT in a PCGS holder that I haven't run through this board for an authenticity review.
I would think there are a few US series like that. Anything colonial and up to 1830's or so? >>
Surely colonial stuff. PCGS and others do slab colonials, though it's not often preferred by collectors of them. Were I to buy any I'd have to have confidence in the dealer. Fortunately there are many around as trustworthy sources -- pistareen and CRO come immediately to mind.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
Sad thread.
<< <i>I wish there were more coin collectors participating on this board.
Sad thread. >>
I'm guessing you have a pretty narrow definition of a coin collector.
What about this thread is sad to you?
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<< <i>I wish there were more coin collectors participating on this board.
Sad thread. >>
I'm guessing you have a pretty narrow definition of a coin collector.
What about this thread is sad to you? >>
I think he's sad that people care more about the slab than the actual coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire