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Are there REALLY collectors out there of astronomically priced (modern) grade rarities?

WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
Earlier today, I stumbled on a PCGS MS67 1964 Washington Quarter that was for sale at nearly $5,000 and my first thought was "this is crazy".

Then, on a lark, checked out the PCGS price guide and was amazed to discover that a 1964 Washington Quarter at the MS66 grade can be had for around $55, but if you want an example one grade higher at MS67, the price guide jumps to $5,200.

I have to admit that this seems like a stretch, especially since I wonder if some (many? most?) collectors might have a hard time differentiating MS66 vs. MS67. (Especially when it's an upper end MS66 vs. a lower end MS67).

My question is not so much is this coin worth that much. Something is worth what someone will pay and clearly the population reports show how rare MS67 Quarters are dated in the early 1960's.

My question is:

Are there REALLY collectors out there that would pay $5000 for a 1964 Washington Quarter at the MS67 grade?

Wouldn't most people rather have a cherry-picked high-end MS66 1964 Washington Quarter (which might look possibly close to being as nice as the MS67 example for 100 times less money) AND say a PCGS XF40 1799 Silver Dollar (or some other really cool OLD semi-rarity) for that kind of cash?

It's interesting that the 1964 is not even close to being the most expensive high-grade, modern Washington Quarter. The 1962-D in MS67 grade will set you back $18,500.



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Comments

  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    there are collectors...kid you not...drop the dime on such...this is the hobby of kings...some only want the best of the best and money is no object
    this is only but one area of numismatics..."condition rarity"
    peer in on the 1932-d in ms66...one would think 1st year new issue...how many were squirreled away...yet to be graded
    but
    there's designation rarity...1965 sms dcam
    there's toning rarity...........a moose is a moose
    there's issue rarity.............1964 sms and patterns
    error rarity..........................a 90% 1965 and such

    it doesn't hurt fiscal year earnings too when you got high bounty on lofty grades in common years
    as much as how many 1964 quarters there are...how many submit those saved by the box 1964's trying for those 67 & 68...image

    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • JohnMabenJohnMaben Posts: 957 ✭✭✭
    I deal in moderns, and I agree this example is without logic in my own personal opinion. In general, I've never been a fan of ultra low pop moderns (say less than 10 or so) that have very little intrinsic value and avoid them whenever possible. That said, I would never criticize anyone for what they choose to collect.

    John Maben
    Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
    ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
    800-381-2646

  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How crazy is it??? It's as crazy as that MS67 having a hammered strike, no stains or spots, no contact marks despite being soft metal spit out of a coin press in a silver torrent, escaping several relentless silver melts and recognized as a "keeper" coin for nearly a half century.~~~~~~~That all being said my big money goes for absolute rarity pieces esoteric in nature and is not "grade driven"
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There must be such collectors, as indicated by auction results.

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    The old classic rarities have been established. The new rarities are now being established, to be the coins most sought after in fifty years. Although many of us won't be here then, our estates will be enhanced by these treasures. Plan for the future.
    Paul
  • Bankerbob56Bankerbob56 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭
    I've often wondered if the top five registry collectors in this series actually buy most of the high grades in the set, or do they "make" them? I realize that it often involves a combination of made coins and purchases but Mr. Poole, Spivack, and Norris, and others clearly have some deep pockets! I would add that the market has to be thin for the uber graded moderns, and limited in large part to the Registry Set competitors.......
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.....

    Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
  • Like mentioned before. This is the hobby of kings and money talks...
  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    ericj96 has a mega thread that discusses this subject thoroughly. He also is the author of a book that helps us to find the "modern" rarities. Check out the thread, quite an education (at least at the beginning).
    Paul
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This phenomenon is a result of the popularity of TPG registries.

    If registries fade away, so will this.
  • phnataccphnatacc Posts: 367 ✭✭


    << <i>This phenomenon is a result of the popularity of TPG registries.

    If registries fade away, so will this. >>



    This.
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To answer your question simply "Yes" I just sent a link of the listing to one of them. And if I had not sold off my quarter set to concentrate on half dollars I would be putting in a offer to the coins owner myself now.
    image
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I say: "to each his own", and let them tear each other up over this dumb stuff...
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if/when it sells you will have its worth
    LCoopie = Les
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This phenomenon is a result of the popularity of TPG registries.

    If registries fade away, so will this. >>



    My answer when this is said is that there were collectors paying top dollar for the better to best coins long before the registries came into play and some of the best collections are still not in any registry.
    image
  • ianrussellianrussell Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are definitely collectors of these low pop modern coins. As to price and what they are worth, that depends on the series, likelihood of increase in pop, popularity, registry set collectors and so forth. Some modern series are weak, some are strong at the moment.

    - Ian
    Ian Russell
    Owner/Founder GreatCollections
    GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tell you one thing ...

    At those prices, you better be darn sure the coin was graded correctly!!
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The top few specimens will always have demand in the finest sets. But for $5,000 that coin has to be all there. I would imagine that you can have
    dozens of 66's and 67's covering the entire price spectrum from $100 to $5,000+. You definitely don't want a just made it MS67 (ie 10 submissions to get 'er done)
    for your $5,000 or even your $4,000 or $3,000. The sharp collectors of this series know the difference.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are limits to everything.

    A year or two ago I saw the "dog gonest" Type II gold dollar I had ever seen. It blew away the MS-65 I owned years ago. It was in an MS-66 or 67 holder, I can't remember which, but at $68,000 I figured I'd better pass because I lost my sanity.

    BUT if I had the resources of someone like the late Harry Bass, I could have seen myself writing the check.

    Maybe it's crazy to spend that kind of money, but when a coin is really tough in MS-65, you could see it. When that difference is noted between MS-66 and 67, it should make you think.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "I deal in moderns, and I agree this example is without logic in my own personal opinion. In general, I've never been a fan of ultra low pop moderns (say less than 10 or so) that have very little intrinsic value and avoid them whenever possible. That said, I would never criticize anyone for what they choose to collect."

    John ... on its face, it might make little logic to you ... until you try to locate a properly graded PCGS-MS67 1964-P Washington Quarter. Now, understand that NGC and PCGS utilize a different standard in grading Mint state Silver Washington Quarters (and as I have said many times before my comment is not intended to take a position on which company's standard is correct or incorrect) ... so perhaps in all your years of grading MS67 silver Washington Quarters at NGC you did not see virtually any of the handful of known coins out there today that would warrant a $5,000 price tag as a PCGS-MS67 specimen (unless perhaps you graded an NGC-MS68 specimen back then which might possibly have made it into a PCGS-MS67 holder).

    Want an even better example ... it took me (29) years of hard work to finally grade the 1955-D Washington Quarter in PCGS-MS67 (there are still only -3- MS66+ coins below the MS67 and I also slabbed -2- of those). I saw a large % of the NGC-MS67 coins over the years and the best they would do would be to cross down to PCGS-MS66 which made little sense since PCGS-MS66 coins traded for $500-$1000 for most coins and NGC-MS67 traded for about $1,500 - $2,000 for most coins. Of course, no one could possibly understand this situation until they took the time to personally inspect thousands upon thousands (and even tens of thousands) of fresh 55-D BU quarters through 64-P BU quarters to see what I am talking about. Even the better part of ten years ago there were threads on this very board asking if a 55-D quarter would ever achieve a PCGS-MS67 grade (the last coin in the series to ever achieve that grade from 34-64 and even the incredibly tough 34-D has graded -5- MS67 specimens thus far) and universal agreement that if one ever did it would be around a $15,000 coin (now about 5-10 years later from those early threads, my best guess is the coin would trade between $20,000 - $25,000 at auction with an MS66 being worth $500 - $3,000 depending upon quality and eye appeal).

    As always, just my 2 cents.

    Wondercoin

    P.S. OP ... Yes indeed many of us can tell the difference between an MS66 and MS67 Washington Quarter. Better yet, a number of us can tell the difference between an MS67 and MS67+ grade. If you carefully put the time in and research the sales prices from the last big Heritage sale of the #4 quarter set, you may discover exactly which MS67 coins a few of the best and brightest Wash quarter graders in the country believed had a decent shot to MS67+ and paid a huge premium to outbid each other for. I believe one or more of these coins may already be in MS67+ holders just 30-60 days after the sale!

    As always, just my 2 cents.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For some, that extra $5k is like buying a latte for others. When there is very little opportunity cost then why not own the best?
  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608
    This isn't an exact analogy, but the original post reminds me of a story. I bought a friend, some average circulated Buffalo nickels for his vintage slot machine. Some time later, I invited him to attend the Long Beach coin show with me. As my friend looked at the cases with prices marked, he loudly commented about "rip off" prices, and pointed to the Buffalo nickels. "How dare some dealers ask for hundreds, even thousands of dollars, when I have a slot machine full of them." I had to calm him down and explain to him about better dates and grading and how that translates into higher prices. I don't think he got it though, and still thought that anyone paying those high prices was an idiot and that the dealers were trying to rip people off.

    However, go into his hobby of vintage cars, and others might think the same thing. Why spend so much for a vintage car of limited utility, when a brand new car cost less to begin with, cost less to insure and maintain, and has all the modern safety features and amenities?

    Yes, some of the more modern coins, especially Franklins, have come down in value as pops have increased and demand declined or stagnated. However, some coins have held steady in price or gone up, such as top pop early Kennedy's. It has been and continues to be a bit of a crap shoot. However, there are likely similar potholes or air pockets for some other top pops in classic series, for those that don't know what they are doing.

    Grading companies have only been in operation for about 30 years, and NGC has only been grading post 1964 moderns for about 20 years. It remains to be seen how well the nicer coins will do from this day forward. As always, I believe that grading skill, market knowledge, and access to coins will tend to be more important than which series a person picks today, in terms of financial returns. Anyone can go back ten years and point to what has done well, no one can accurately predict prices ten years into the future. Many will have an opinion, and many form their opinion by looking at the recent past.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>For some, that extra $5k is like buying a latte for others. When there is very little opportunity cost then why not own the best? >>



    Why no the best?

    Because even when you are wealthy you can put yourself in the poorhouse with a string of bad purchases. Mercedes Benz learned that some years ago when they over priced their products and lost market share. Most rich people got that way because they made prudent investments.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • phnataccphnatacc Posts: 367 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This phenomenon is a result of the popularity of TPG registries.

    If registries fade away, so will this. >>



    My answer when this is said is that there were collectors paying top dollar for the better to best coins long before the registries came into play and some of the best collections are still not in any registry.
    image >>




    "modern grade rarities"
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    I couldnt do it but some can
    Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:

    Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "string of bad purchases"

    Bill: My 63-D MS67 quarter cost me about $5,000 ten or so years ago and is now worth maybe $18,000 to $20,000. My 32-P MS67 quarter cost me $10,000, give or take, as I recall back a decade ago and is now worth around $40,000+. At the time I bought that 32-P for about $10,000, I could have had an MS66 specimen for under $1,000. The MS67 is now a $40,000 coin and the MS66 is still under $1,000 to this day! What "bad purchases"?

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>For some, that extra $5k is like buying a latte for others. When there is very little opportunity cost then why not own the best? >>



    Why no the best?

    Because even when you are wealthy you can put yourself in the poorhouse with a string of bad purchases. Mercedes Benz learned that some years ago when they over priced their products and lost market share. Most rich people got that way because they made prudent investments. >>



    Not if you protect the principal and only spend the income...
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "For some, that extra $5k is like buying a latte for others."

    I met up with a modern coin collector in NYC last month for dinner ... he brought along a $1,000/bottle wine (well $2,500/bottle if ordered off the wine list). Two points...

    1. Thank goodness I am a beer drinker

    2. I can only imagine what the classic collectors are spending on their wine and fun!!

    Wondercoin image
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭
    The reason I would not get too much into top pop moderns is there is still to many BU rolls still in original wrappers to risk waiting for the moderrns to start getting enough attention to change those popoulation reports, IMHO. This does not mean it will happen but is a concern I've always had for anything to modern, but each to his own and good luck to all that collect them. I hope my theory is wrong for their sakes.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michiganboy (and OP) ... the 64-P quarter is now 48 years old! The 55-D quarter is 57 years old!!

    Food for thought ... when I personally started collecting coins as a 6 or 7 year old kid, the 1909svdb Lincoln cent was more "modern" (measured in years old) than the 1955-D quarter is today to the new crop of yound collectors!!!

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"string of bad purchases"

    Bill: My 63-D MS67 quarter cost me about $5,000 ten or so years ago and is now worth maybe $18,000 to $20,000. My 32-P MS67 quarter cost me $10,000, give or take, as I recall back a decade ago and is now worth around $40,000+. At the time I bought that 32-P for about $10,000, I could have had an MS66 specimen for under $1,000. The MS67 is now a $40,000 coin and the MS66 is still under $1,000 to this day! What "bad purchases"?

    Wondercoin >>



    Good for you!

    I couldn't buy that stuff, even if I wanted to, without losing my shirt. I wouldn't know who to take it to. At a normal regional or national bouse if I ran around trying to sell something like that, the dealers who know me would figure that I'd lost my marbles.

    When you deal in material like this you have to have circle of contacts who make the market for it. The same thing applies to a lesser extent to those who collect early copper coins by die variety. The circle of those who collect early silver by die variety is even smaller. Only the top dealers get the top prices. The rest of us get less.

    The trouble is I don't see this roaring modern coin market at the shows or the major auctions. My perception of that market is that it is small and thin, and outsides get involved in it at their peril.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Michiganboy (and OP) ... the 64-P quarter is now 48 years old! The 55-D quarter is 57 years old!!

    Food for thought ... when I personally started collecting coins as a 6 or 7 year old kid, the 1909svdb Lincoln cent was more "modern" (measured in years old) than the 1955-D quarter is today to the new crop of yound collectors!!!

    Wondercoin >>



    Yes, and those coins were saved by the roll. Back in the early 1960s the roll market was "the investment thing." Then that market died. Luckily the rise in the price of silver came along and saved a lot of those BU coins from circulation or the melting pot.

    Granted few of the coins in those rolls grade MS-67, and some of the stuff in the early 1960s, especially from the Denver is lucky if it grades MS-63. Still the guys who pay four and figure prices for that material have more guts that I do. I pay that kind of money for a Mint State 1794 cent or half cent, not a 1963 quarter.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Billet7Billet7 Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>For some, that extra $5k is like buying a latte for others. When there is very little opportunity cost then why not own the best? >>



    Why no the best?

    Because even when you are wealthy you can put yourself in the poorhouse with a string of bad purchases. Mercedes Benz learned that some years ago when they over priced their products and lost market share. Most rich people got that way because they made prudent investments. >>



    Not if you protect the principal and only spend the income... >>



    Can't protect the principle very well when there are so many uncontrollable factors. There are many MANY rolls of BU Washies out there, just a few newly certified coins would change the price dramatically. That's one of the reasons most people find it imprudent to collect modern condition rarities, it may be rare now, but who knows what will happen in the future. The likelihood is that more will be certified.

    It can work for the benefit of the buyer too, it's just high risk.

    Edited for spelling.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "The same thing applies to a lesser extent to those who collect early copper coins by die variety. The circle of those who collect early silver by die variety is even smaller"

    Likewise, if I ran around the show circuit trying to peddle early copper coins by die variety (for too long), many would think I have lost my marbles!

    Not to go off topic, but the silver Washington Quarters at these prices begin to make PERFECT SENSE when you start looking at what the business strike state quarter counterparts sell for. Take a 1999 Delaware Denver MS68 coin .... in the price guide at $9,000 I believe while the MS67 coins trade often under $200. Anyone want to sell me one sight-seen for 80% of Guide (PCGS-MS68 only of course)? My $7,200 check is waiting. I can probably use a PA-D PCGS-MS68 as well at the same price. OK ... we can round up to $15,000 for the pair. Who wants to sell me these? You see ... the 1964-P Quarter at only $4,000 or $5,000 begins to look like a "steal" at that level!

    Wondercon image
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This phenomenon is a result of the popularity of TPG registries.

    If registries fade away, so will this. >>



    Aw man, you're harshing the mellow!

    image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭


    << <i>Michiganboy (and OP) ... the 64-P quarter is now 48 years old! The 55-D quarter is 57 years old!!

    Food for thought ... when I personally started collecting coins as a 6 or 7 year old kid, the 1909svdb Lincoln cent was more "modern" (measured in years old) than the 1955-D quarter is today to the new crop of yound collectors!!!

    Wondercoin >>



    My local dealer just open a roll of 1909vdb's ( not SF ) last year and submitted the best five and they came back ms64rb I bought one for $80 off him and he still has rolls of 1950d jefferson's and hoard of ike's and what nots. So the modern part to me has more to do with the fact that they still exsist in good numbers and OBW rolls and mint bags. Their shop has been open since 1965 and they hoard all kinds of stuff like this and put some up on ebay everyonce in awhile just to feel out the market he said. My point was not to bash the collectors of moderns but to as you said give food for thought and like I said it just my opinion. I don't even collect morgans, for me its 1878 and before but thats just me it should have no bearing on what anyone else collects.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Best (5) came back MS64RB ... far cry from the PCGS-MS68RD I sold a customer about 10-15 years ago and the coin remains pop 1/0 to this day as far as I know.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    While I known wondercoin believes in What he is saying because he has lived it and seen its fruits for years, I have to agree with billjones on this. I think anyone short of a top level connected dealer should not partake in those as an investment vehicle because without the plastic and the circle of trust you have nothing. As bill said, an UNC 1794 penny will bring big money no matter if it is raw or slabbed be it in over graded plastic or undergraded plastic as the core object is a strong one. I question if wondercoin's 15k offer would be valid if the two monester gems were raw? Even if his was would anybody else in the world? A one person market does liquidity not make IMO
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everyone is wired differently and it's not supposed to make sense to all. It is what makes collecting an individual pursuit. One size does not fit all........MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "I question if wondercoin's 15k offer would be valid if the two monester gems were raw?"

    To be honest .... my offer would be well under that $15,000 level. The PCGS brand brings added value to myriad classic and modern coins, including Delaware business strike quarters. The brand has 24,000,000 graded coins behind it and is a third party service. Ownership adds a point quite often. I will pay extra for a properly graded coin already blessed by PCGS. Should I be ashamed of that?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"string of bad purchases"

    Bill: My 63-D MS67 quarter cost me about $5,000 ten or so years ago and is now worth maybe $18,000 to $20,000. My 32-P MS67 quarter cost me $10,000, give or take, as I recall back a decade ago and is now worth around $40,000+. At the time I bought that 32-P for about $10,000, I could have had an MS66 specimen for under $1,000. The MS67 is now a $40,000 coin and the MS66 is still under $1,000 to this day! What "bad purchases"?

    Wondercoin >>

    Of all the replies read, this one is based in fact and not opinion.

    The rest of the replies are all just "whine whine whine" "Waa Waa Waa"

    QUESTION: If the MS66 Washington in the OP was good enough, why bother even looking at the MS67? image

    Yes, grading is an opinion. In reference to coins slabbed by reputable TPG's, its a "Consensus Opinion" of Professionals that actually deal or dealt in coins. These are the folks that have their fingers on the pulse of coin prices/pricing and populations in a "relative sense" and know how to grade coins. They've looked at hundreds if not thousands or NICE coins that folks have submitted for grading and the coins assigned the MS67 or High Grades, "in their opinions", looked much better, both technically and visually, than the typical "High Grade Hopeful" coins submitted. Typical coins submitted are coins which folks "believed" were high grade, otherwise why bother to submit, which turned out to be just a typical high grade coin. Nice, yes, but not ultra-nice. THAT type of submission is based upon "inexperience" and "hope".

    Should the OP's coin command a $5,000 price? Thats totally up to the discerning buyer. As with anything in life, people should know what they are doing before committing huge sums of money. This is where the TPG's come into play. They, in essence, sell their grading experience to the inexperienced and then guarantee their opinions with a buy back guarantee.

    BTW, Washingtons are not alone with big price jumps.

    1971-D Eisenhower
    MS66 = $160
    MS67 = $4,700

    1972-D Eisenhower
    MS66 = $170
    MS67 = $9,750

    1969-D Kennedy
    MS66 = $270
    MS67 = $4,000

    1974 Kennedy
    MS66 = $65
    MS67 = $3,000

    These are pulled from the PCGS Price Guide which tends to be on the high side......... for the Common Stuff (MS66's). However, when you get into the High Grade/Low Pop area, "for coins which have been out of PRODUCTION and CIRCULATION for BETTER THAN 30 YEARS", then the prices always take a HUGE jump. Just because you can still purchase rolls of these coins on the open market, does not insure that you'll get a High Grade, Low Pop coin. If that were the case, then I'd be loaded in MS68/MS69 Presidential Dollars. It just does not happen.

    Can High Grade Low Pop coins still be found? Absolutely! That MS67 1962-D Washington was picked up by Bushmaster8 and was originally purchased by him in a 2x2.

    will you be as lucky? Maybe. Chances are though, you won't be.

    Does a coins grade REALLY MATTER? Of course, otherwise all coins would be considered the same (like beanie babies).

    Are high prices just Registry Driven? No. I don't believe for a second that they are. Some yes, but a majority no. There are simply knowledgeable collectors of Modern Coinage Designs out there that KNOW, for a fact, that these Low Pop High Grade coins just do NOT come around that often. They are in fact as difficult to find "and get graded" as high grade classic design coins.

    No ifs ands or buts.


    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭


    << <i>Best (5) came back MS64RB ... far cry from the PCGS-MS68RD I sold a customer about 10-15 years ago and the coin remains pop 1/0 to this day as far as I know.

    Wondercoin >>



    Point was not the grade but the fact that uncirculted and ungraded material like that out there, I for one do not expect you to collect what I like. I just stated why
    I feel that way. I for one always glad to see someone be successful in what ever they do.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Point was not the grade"

    But, my point was ...

    Someone go out and buy 100 original BU rolls of 55-D quarters or 64-P quarters and see how many MS67's you make. Spend the $25,000+ for the rolls and another $5,000 for failed grading attempts and then I'll see you in the auction room when the next PCGS-MS67 coin comes up for auction (the good ones show up one every couple years or so) image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>"I question if wondercoin's 15k offer would be valid if the two monester gems were raw?"

    To be honest .... my offer would be well under that $15,000 level. The PCGS brand brings added value to myriad classic and modern coins, including Delaware business strike quarters. The brand has 24,000,000 graded coins behind it and is a third party service. Ownership adds a point quite often. I will pay extra for a properly graded coin already blessed by PCGS. Should I be ashamed of that?

    Wondercoin >>



    Not at all and I commend you for the honesty. And to be fair a UNC 1794 penny would bring more in pcgs plastic too but the spread is much greater between the two. I was just trying to point out that at those levels people are really buying the best plastic and not necessarily the best coin. W
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "That MS67 1962-D Washington was picked up by Bushmaster8 and was originally purchased by him in a 2x2."

    Great old thread you pulled up Lee. It's funny how folks were estimating the value at $1,000 or $3,000 at the time and were shocked when it fetched $14,000 at auction. The buyer then resold it for over $18,000 if I am not mistaken and Manofcoins from these boards decided he wanted it this time around and outbid everyone to do so (and there were plenty of real underbidders at that auction)!

    To Crypto's reasonable points ... Bushmaster bought the 62-D in a 2x2 for a few dollars if I recall correctly. Had the coin come up at auction raw, I would have probably bid around $4,000 - $5,000 for it at the time (and may have been outbid if other professional upgraders were there that day) . I would have figured the coin to be a wonderful MS66 worth a few thousand for the color even if I failed to get it into an MS67 holder and a $10,000+ coin if I nailed the MS67 grade at that time. So, spending $4,000 or so raw would have been a easy amount to bid ... I lose $2,000 - $2,500 or so if I failed to get the MS67 grade and I make $6,000+ or so if I did. Good grading bet .... at least to me.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting discussion! Thanks for all the input. I have learned a few things (which is the whole point!)
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭


    << <i>"Point was not the grade"

    But, my point was ...

    Someone go out and buy 100 original BU rolls of 55-D quarters or 64-P quarters and see how many MS67's you make. Spend the $25,000+ for the rolls and another $5,000 for failed grading attempts and then I'll see you in the auction room when the next PCGS-MS67 coin comes up for auction (the good ones show up one every couple years or so) image

    Wondercoin >>



    I'm sorry wonder coin your point is made, I for one would never gamble the roll scenario drawn out above. I buy single coins that have eye appeal to me and are types I collect. So I will leave this discussion to the ones that collect moderns.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I collect moderns [and classics] for the fun of it. So far most of what I collect are raw coins and my acquisition costs are modest.

    The fun I get out of the hobby is the hunt and finding a "keeper" among large quantities of dreck and dross. I enjoy collecting older moderns because I remember these coins actually circulating and I remember using same in day to day commerce back in the 60's and early 70's when I was a kid and teenager.

    Spending time looking through large numbers of coins and seeing how poorly made many of them are gives you a knowledge base upon which you can rely when you stumble across a "keeper". For example, the MS 1969P quarter is one which is typically an ugly coin. It was poorly made, with low quality planchets having numerous marks and dings that were not eliminated through striking pressure. Most 1969P quarters look as though they have been beat up since they have numerous planchet marks on the fields and devices. After looking at many of these coins [mostly in mint sets since non mint set MS 1969P quarters are hardly ever found since rolls and singles were not saved in any significant amounts at the time they were made] you know just how poor the quality is. With this knowledge, when a high quality example shows up it just leaps out at you.

    It happened to me a couple of years ago. I stopped at a B&M to snoop. I looked at mint sets and saw a 1969 set with a clipped 1969D half and a high quality 1969P quarter. I bought the set for the half and the quarter. The quarter is remarkably clean. There are appear to be no planchet marks in the fields and only a couple on the devices. The strike on the obverse is very good, with unmarked fields and struck up devices. The obverse also has very nice luster and very light blue/gold toning. The obverse has great eye appeal. The reverse has a light golden color and is not as well struck as the obverse. The reverse has decent eye appeal. This quarter is so much better than all other 1969P quarters I have seen. It is a "keeper". Who knows if this coin will ever sell for more than what I paid for it, but it really does not matter. I enjoyed looking for, finding and buying the coin. I enjoy owning it. I enjoy showing it to others. I will enjoy passing it on to someone else some day. If the coin is one that would warrant slabbing and obtains a high grade, I will have no problem selling it for what the market will bear.

    All of the above said, I am not able to pay high prices for top pop/highest grade slabbed moderns. If I was in a position to do so, I would be open to doing so, but only after becoming much more educated on the subject matter and consulting with other dealers/collectors who have a track record of success in this area of the hobby. I would do the same in the purchase of classics also for substantial money.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Michiganboy ... Thanks for the friendly discussion .... btw, if you do not like rolls you can always buy mint sets at about $150 or so a pop and try it that way as well ! LOL.

    I'll be out of here for a while starting in about an hour ... need to move my boy out of his college over the next couple days.

    Just having some last minute fun here talking coins before I need to "get to work".

    Please carry on ....

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.

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