If I was dying in six months, buying coins would not be on my agenda.
The buyer knew exactly what was going on and was hoping for a bargain. Claims he never liked barbers, then all of sudden he falls in love with one? UH-No. He fell in love with the bargain price, did some homework and decided to buy it. No problem there.(Also, If he fell in love with it, why would he want to turn it over immediately?). If the deal becomes a sale when he opens the package then he could probably just keep it, as is proven by the reward offer. True that someone's job may be held in the balance if he does not return it. Personally I would have just returned it and asked for $100 for my trouble and not taken a $1000 to keep in good status with the company. Relationships are important in this hobby and word travels swiftly. JMO-Bob >>
If I was dying it would not be on mine either but that does not mean it's not on his. The movie the "Bucket List" has lots of things not on my agenda. I am not like the buyer because I would have already returned the coin and I think you guys are reading a lot into the Ebay listing. I think he listed it with the sole intention of fishing for opinions on what he should do and had zero intention of letting the auction run to the end. That is backed by the fact that the listing was ended. He got the opinions he wanted to get and cancelled the auction. The "why did he try to flip it if he loved it" argument holds no water with me. I agree relationships are important in coin collecting and in life in general and would return the coin ASAP simply because it is the right thing to do. A man without honor or principal is an empty shell.
Looking at the ebayers recent purchases , he has sure spent a lot of money this year on high end slabbed coins , id love to see whats behind those two private auctions from a numismatic seller.Id be more than surprised if this ebayer is not a member here or ATS , seems to like the slabbed coins and has many such transactions.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution.
I sold a coin to a dealer at a local show and got the wrong line on the price list. He bought it, when I realized what I had done I went to him and told him of my mistake. He said he paid the price I asked and a deal is a deal. Case closed. I lost over a $1000.00
People who don't trust other people. Can't be trusted.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot.
<< <i>I sold a coin to a dealer at a local show and got the wrong line on the price list. He bought it, when I realized what I had done I went to him and told him of my mistake. He said he paid the price I asked and a deal is a deal. Case closed. I lost over a $1000.00 >>
I think a lot of us would have similar stories to share , this is where the one rule for dealers and another for commen collectors comes into play.You see you were cherry picked , thats all , no harm no foul.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again.
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy. >>
Nonsense. There have been dozens of occasions in my life when I have returned cash to cashiers because they mistakenly gave me too much money back. And if I hadn't, they would have been stuck paying for their mistakes out of their own pockets. As for the assertion that the buyer is broke---sorry, I'm not willing to accept that. He evidently had enough money to buy a coin costing more than $1K.
This isn't capitalism at work, it's an example of a lack of ethics.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Unless this individual holds mistaken moral views, he is without integrity as far as I'm concerned. The right thing (that a person with integrity would do) would be to return the coin and accept the generous 1K reward that SB offered him.
This person further goes on to explain how he is dying in an attempt to garner sympathy with the reader, another sad illustration of just how morally bankrupt this individual is. Not a person I would ever want to do business with. >>
I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation.
Someone once told me as a kid, "Integrity is what you do when nobody's looking." It still is true today.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions.
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy. Hold your employees responsible for their mistakes (Write him up, fire him, depends on the value of the employee, I suppose) and protect your public image would be my advice to SB here. >>
Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that. This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court. >>
I have nothing to do with S/B - why would my motivation matter one whit???
<< <i>I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation. >>
From reading this thread, I'm gathering that if this sort of thing happens to the "little guy", it's deplorable but in this case, it's okay because SB is a big company.
By reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of animosity between some collectors and some dealers. That's really a shame and makes me wonder why that is.
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy. Hold your employees responsible for their mistakes (Write him up, fire him, depends on the value of the employee, I suppose) and protect your public image would be my advice to SB here. >>
Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that. This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John >>
I'm right there with you John. And the remarks about it being easy to have integrity when you are independently wealthy is horsesh*t. I'm certainly not wealthy but MY integrity means a lot more to me than any amount of cash i could obtain fraudulently.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court. >>
I have nothing to do with S/B - why would my motivation matter one whit??? >>
You put yourself in the hypothetical position of being the plaintiff. You further said you'd sue regardless of merit, and that was what I addressed.
<< <i>I agree with you, not all dealers would do the right thing, as I found out. >>
Nobody disputes that there are dealers who have questionable ethics. That people seem to be using that fact to justify taking advantage of somebody else's mistake is beyond sleazy, IMO.
<< <i>By reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of animosity between some collectors and some dealers. That's really a shame and makes me wonder why that is. >>
My inference is different---just as there is a wide variance in ethical standards among dealers, there is a similar variance among collectors. Regarding numismatic collectibles, I pick sellers and buyers to work with very carefully (for obvious reasons). I learned this lesson the hard way, more than two decades ago.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
The ebay seller is in the wrong. The ebay seller goes to great lengths to list his various and long term accomplishments in high end numismatics, which weakens any possible claim that the ebay seller was unaware of the true value of the coin in question. The coin was likely meant to be offered at $16,500 by SB and was mistakenly offered at $1,650. The ebay seller knew the price was in error because of his long history in the hobby, yet ordered the coin anyway and when approached by SB to return the obvious pricing error simply refused and pretended to be unaware of an issue. This is easy. I am also stunned at some of the replies. Do the right thing.
<< <i>Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that. This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John >>
I'm only broke because of school, a horrible economy, and trying to save my cats. Oh, and my car repair bill is reaming me right now.
Why is it that when people overpay for a coin, it's called "tuition" and yet when they get a crazy deal because someone screwed up, they should return it? Seems like the table runs towards the dealers in the numismatic world, as if they can do no wrong...
To follow up with what the other John just posted, there is no fraud here. Maybe ethics aren't on the purchasers side, but legally, he's entirely within his rights to keep the coin. No defrauding going on here... just a dealer refusing to own up to their screwup.
Bottom line, SB just paid $15k in tuition. >>
This thread itself is a worthy tuition which answers many of your questions. All the "what i'd do" and the "ebayer should do" are meaningless and have no substance.It's little more than amusing at this point to see who can scramble to the highest point of morality hill.
If one beleives that there is a direct relationship between integrity/principles/honor and net worth or belief in capitalism, then I suggest that there is no real point to having a discussion.
To be honest, I just don't get this thread......it seems fundamental to me. The coin should have been returned...no question. This is not ethically ambiguous at all.
<< <i>I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation. >>
From reading this thread, I'm gathering that if this sort of thing happens to the "little guy", it's deplorable but in this case, it's okay because SB is a big company. >>
Yes, it's the "they can afford it" mentality. Should make no difference little guy, big guy, dealer, collector, a mistake is made, it's a mistake period. Not punishable by a monetary reward when no damages have been incurred.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
They noticed it while in transit...I would have returned it...but more likely I would have already flipped it and had even more of a mess.
The eBay guy doth protest his ignorance too much.
Unless the guy is lying, he'll be dead before a court case closes and both parties will lose. SB would likely lose the PR battle, either way, but they may see it as an ethical question as well.
I have had several corporate attorneys tell me that they can keep anything but the most egregious, frivolous case in court for two years, if your only intent is to burn the other guys legal fees. Gotta love that system.
If I saw a $15k coin listed for $1,500, the first thing I would ask the seller is, "What's wrong with it?"
This happened one time when I saw a PCGS holdered coin listed by someone (who I know to have looser ethics than me. ) It was a $300 coin listed for $50. When I called and asked, he said "Well, it is pretty obvious that someone tried to fix a problem on the coin and it turned in the holder, so I'm selling it for $50 on behalf of the owner." I passed, of course.
That is the first thing I would have asked StacksBowers. At which point, they probably would have looked a little harder and found their mistake.
What do you think the eBayer would have done if he had gotten the coin but had looked at the wrong picture, and upon getting the coin saw that the coin he bought was misgraded by NGC and really was only worth $1,500? This is the type of person who would have called SB and said "Wait! I made a mistake and looked at the wrong picture! You have to buy the coin back! If you don't, I'm going to make a post on eBay telling everyone that SB sells misgraded coins!!!"
If one beleives that there is a direct relationship between integrity/principles/honor and net worth or belief in capitalism, then I suggest that there is no real point to having a discussion.
To be honest, I just don't get this thread......it seems fundamental to me. The coin should have been returned...no question. This is not ethically ambiguous at all.
<< <i>I find the responses in this thread quite perplexing. Seems Stacks Bowers has a lot of posters in their court.
Remember the thread about the dealer at the Pttsburg ANA who's employee sold an MS65 Red 1909S VDB as an 09 VDB for $200???? at the Pttsburg ANA
If I recall correctly the overall response was quite opposite to the responses here and the difference in value percentage wise was quite higher!
Does make 1 think! >>
Sounds like the Pittsburgh ANA show dealer may be one of those who does not put prices on coins at a show but rather has to reach for a sheet everytime someone inquires. That's not a good practice at a show and shows laziness IMO. It is a terrible practice when the dealer has assistants selling coins and only invites trouble.
<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!"
<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!"
>>
Agreed. NO difference. >>
I differ strongly. This case is about a mispriced item that the seller surely have multiples of the incorrect selling price invested in. A cherrypick is about unrecognized value in a coin that the dealer has nothing invested in the unrecognized portion of the value. It is priced like a common variety of the coin. There is a huge difference there.
Looks like SB forgot where to put the comma when listing the coin, should have been 16,500 instead of 1,650.
Legally I don't see much that can been done here, the buyer wasn't in the wrong when he bought the coin even if he says he didn't know the real market value for this coin, which is tough to say because if I was about to drop $1500 I would do my homework, but nevertheless, the buyer contacted SB and asked if the coin was still available at the quoted price. He was told yes and then the buyer paid for the coin and it was shipped to him with the legal document of purchase.
Looks like a big screw up on management and someone will lose their job over this, maybe. But I think SB should honor the deal because that's what it was, a deal between the two parties that was confirmed up until a few days after the coin was shipped out and about to be delivered.
It should have never taken that long to catch a 15k mistake. I understand the ethical thing to do, and if it was me I would just return the coin. But the buyer certainly didn't steal the coin, but found a wormhole in SB's system and took advantage of it.
I'm just curious to hear and see what SB can legally do to acquire the coin back? This whole mess is their fault and now they gotta clean it up!
<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!" >>
The difference is there was a meeting of the minds in those instances. Once the company immediately declared it a [rather obvious, I might add] clerical mistake, there was no deal. >>
<< <i>The ebay seller is in the wrong. The ebay seller goes to great lengths to list his various and long term accomplishments in high end numismatics, which weakens any possible claim that the ebay seller was unaware of the true value of the coin in question. The coin was likely meant to be offered at $16,500 by SB and was mistakenly offered at $1,650. The ebay seller knew the price was in error because of his long history in the hobby, yet ordered the coin anyway and when approached by SB to return the obvious pricing error simply refused and pretended to be unaware of an issue. This is easy. I am also stunned at some of the replies. Do the right thing. >>
Great minds do think alike!
I just got home from my Calculus3 final and brain is fried... but I read some of this thread yesterday and decided to post a few mins ago. Then went back a few pages and read TomB's response... almost word for word...
Rather than an actual ad, it sounds like a coin they simply had listed for sale on their website inventory. The buyer made a mention of having a copy of the online "ad." Which sounds like he hit the print button his browser or perhaps took a screen shot. I'm curious why he felt the need to do so unless he knew exactly what he was doing and wanted proof after the fact in the unlikely event the seller didn't catch the error in time and wanted the coin back.
This is a case where the buyer should have just kept his mouth shut. Get his/the coin and moved on. It would be better for him if the world did not have to know that he is a sleazy con man at heart.
Wise Sampson says cut it half and give each party one portion.
Most people's sense of ethics here would side with SB. The law would probably side with the buyer. Either way, the buyer is a real donkey to gloat about it.
<< <i>Not sure if any of this is true or not, but it is interesting."
And I read 90% of the reply's ,along with the auction(Both interesting). I'd be happy with 10% "make it right" fee . 6-9 months to live this seller has so he may not care about the right thing to do. I've return mistakes(Not this bad) a number of times. One a forum member sent me 4 rolls of silver,but should have been 2. He got 2 back,after I picked the best ones..
<< <i>If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
As to the first part: Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 says you can get sanctioned if you file a frivolous lawsuit against someone, especially if you do so for the purpose of causing him to run up attorneys fees defending it. Link. If you want an example of bad ethics, suing someone just to "punish" him by making him spend money to defend himself, regardless of "legalities," is unethical. It's an abuse of the legal system which courts don't take lightly.
As to the second part: I don't think the court would find a lawsuit by S-B is frivolous; I'm sure they could come up with some valid legal arguments, as others have mentioned (e.g., unilateral mistake). Preferably they would research the law, and have a good faith basis for suing, before they "slapped" him with the lawsuit.
However, there is almost no way they would be able to get the coin back and make such a lawsuit worthwhile. Even if the guy defended the lawsuit himself (pro se) and didn't hire a lawyer, he could drag out the case and it would cost S-B way more than $15,000 before the case was resolved, with motions, pleadings, court appearances, etc. Even if S-B won, it would probably take effort and money to actually collect on the judgment or recover the coin. And if the guy hired a lawyer, I'm not at all sure S-B would win.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
This falls under the Uniform Commercial Code which is the law for the sale of goods. It sounds like title transferred when the goods were delivered to the buyer. The real question is whether this was in "good faith".
<< <i>Wise Sampson says cut it half and give each party one portion.
Most people's sense of ethics here would side with SB. The law would probably side with the buyer. Either way, the buyer is a real donkey to gloat about it. >>
I'm hoping this individual did not raise too many kids.
Yes, probably too flippant and harsh. My bad. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Stacks makes so many clerical errors and listing errors that if they were made aware of all of them, they'd have a hard time staying business. I sold maybe 25 items over 2 auctions and there were no less than 10 errors that needed to be fixed. And I've mainly bought in their errors. The last time, Stacks shipped me the wrong medal and I called as soon as it happened. Abolsuletely no action was taken by Stacks to fix the problem. 2 weeks later when I called to see, it was like no one even knew there was a problem and when they called the person who they shipped the wrong item to, they supposedly couldn't find it amongst their vast inventory. It was a $1000 mistake on Stacks part. I feel sorry for the seller in that case.
Christine is the only person there who seems to be able to do anything. It's sad when a little guy like me has a direct relationship with her on just about everything I have done with them.
This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. I'm guessing someone looked at the wrong line on the price guide. I'm surprised that they don't have multiple levels of review just to make sure these things don't happen. It never hurts to have at least a couple of sets of eyes on these things. We aren't talking about 15 cent turkeys.
<< <i>This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. >>
Your argument is that $1,650 and $16,500 are different numbers, and that it is not a decimal point error?
<Someone getting screwed threads always have stamina. MJ>
This one comes from strong seed. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. >>
Your argument is that $1,650 and $16,500 are different numbers, and that it is not a decimal point error? >>
The original post states, 1650. And 15,000. Which further proves this thread has gone on long enough. Pretty much everyone has offered an opinion. So can we move on...
Comments
<< <i>
If I was dying in six months, buying coins would not be on my agenda.
The buyer knew exactly what was going on and was hoping for a bargain. Claims he never liked barbers, then all of sudden he falls in love with one? UH-No. He fell in love with the bargain price, did some homework and decided to buy it. No problem there.(Also, If he fell in love with it, why would he want to turn it over immediately?). If the deal becomes a sale when he opens the package then he could probably just keep it, as is proven by the reward offer. True that someone's job may be held in the balance if he does not return it. Personally I would have just returned it and asked for $100 for my trouble and not taken a $1000 to keep in good status with the company. Relationships are important in this hobby and word travels swiftly. JMO-Bob >>
If I was dying it would not be on mine either but that does not mean it's not on his. The movie the "Bucket List" has lots of things not on my agenda. I am not like the buyer because I would have already returned the coin and I think you guys are reading a lot into the Ebay listing. I think he listed it with the sole intention of fishing for opinions on what he should do and had zero intention of letting the auction run to the end. That is backed by the fact that the listing was ended. He got the opinions he wanted to get and cancelled the auction. The "why did he try to flip it if he loved it" argument holds no water with me. I agree relationships are important in coin collecting and in life in general and would return the coin ASAP simply because it is the right thing to do. A man without honor or principal is an empty shell.
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot.
<< <i>I sold a coin to a dealer at a local show and got the wrong line on the price list. He bought it, when I realized what I had done I went to him and told him of my mistake. He said he paid the price I asked and a deal is a deal. Case closed. I lost over a $1000.00 >>
I think a lot of us would have similar stories to share , this is where the one rule for dealers and another for commen collectors comes into play.You see you were cherry picked , thats all , no harm no foul.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again.
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy. >>
Nonsense. There have been dozens of occasions in my life when I have returned cash to cashiers because they mistakenly gave me too much money back. And if I hadn't, they would have been stuck paying for their mistakes out of their own pockets. As for the assertion that the buyer is broke---sorry, I'm not willing to accept that. He evidently had enough money to buy a coin costing more than $1K.
This isn't capitalism at work, it's an example of a lack of ethics.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Unless this individual holds mistaken moral views, he is without integrity as far as I'm concerned. The right thing (that a person with integrity would do) would be to return the coin and accept the generous 1K reward that SB offered him.
This person further goes on to explain how he is dying in an attempt to garner sympathy with the reader, another sad illustration of just how morally bankrupt this individual is. Not a person I would ever want to do business with. >>
I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation.
Someone once told me as a kid, "Integrity is what you do when nobody's looking." It still is true today.
<< <i>Gotcha, sorry sounded like a comparison my misinterpretation then >>
No problem and sorry for any confusion I created.
<< <i>
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<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions.
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy.
Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that.
This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>
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<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court.
<< <i>
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<< <i>
<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court. >>
I have nothing to do with S/B - why would my motivation matter one whit???
<< <i>I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation. >>
From reading this thread, I'm gathering that if this sort of thing happens to the "little guy", it's deplorable but in this case, it's okay because SB is a big company.
<< <i>
<< <i>Easy to speak of integrity when you're independently wealthy. Try doing that when you're broke.
This is just an example of capitalism working in favor of the little guy and not the big guy.
Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that.
This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John >>
I'm right there with you John. And the remarks about it being easy to have integrity when you are independently wealthy is horsesh*t. I'm certainly not wealthy but MY integrity means a lot more to me than any amount of cash i could obtain fraudulently.
John
<< <i>
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<< <i>For those saying that title passes upon shipping, let's think back to the hundreds of lost in transit threads on this chatroom.
If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
Baloney. While, of course, one can sue for anything that is a one in a billion shot. >>
Suing someone for the purpose of running up their legal fees is not a legitimate use of the court system. You think only one in a billion improperly filed cases results in sanctions or a judgment for malicious prosecution? Guess again. >>
Oh puh-leeze. S/B would stand a huge chance of winning such suit and even if they didn't there would be no sanctions. >>
The difference is, you posted your improper motivation to file suit in a public forum, a forum where posts have previously been used in court. >>
I have nothing to do with S/B - why would my motivation matter one whit???
You put yourself in the hypothetical position of being the plaintiff. You further said you'd sue regardless of merit, and that was what I addressed.
<< <i>I agree with you, not all dealers would do the right thing, as I found out. >>
Nobody disputes that there are dealers who have questionable ethics. That people seem to be using that fact to justify taking advantage of somebody else's mistake is beyond sleazy, IMO.
<< <i>By reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of animosity between some collectors and some dealers. That's really a shame and makes me wonder why that is.
My inference is different---just as there is a wide variance in ethical standards among dealers, there is a similar variance among collectors. Regarding numismatic collectibles, I pick sellers and buyers to work with very carefully (for obvious reasons). I learned this lesson the hard way, more than two decades ago.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe many that are broke (not all of course) are broke because they would make such poor decisions as to not return an item in a situation like this? Shows horrible character. I am with Trade Dollar Nut all the way. Regardless of if I was rich or poor I would not take the $1000 either. They could pay the postage to return it, that's it. An honest and obvious mistake is just that.
This isn't a high horse it's called decency. Many of us in this hobby and business live by it. Others do not.
John >>
I'm only broke because of school, a horrible economy, and trying to save my cats. Oh, and my car repair bill is reaming me right now.
Why is it that when people overpay for a coin, it's called "tuition" and yet when they get a crazy deal because someone screwed up, they should return it? Seems like the table runs towards the dealers in the numismatic world, as if they can do no wrong...
To follow up with what the other John just posted, there is no fraud here. Maybe ethics aren't on the purchasers side, but legally, he's entirely within his rights to keep the coin. No defrauding going on here... just a dealer refusing to own up to their screwup.
Bottom line, SB just paid $15k in tuition.
This thread itself is a worthy tuition which answers many of your questions. All the "what i'd do" and the "ebayer should do" are meaningless and have no substance.It's little more than amusing at this point to see who can scramble to the highest point of morality hill.
If one beleives that there is a direct relationship between integrity/principles/honor and net worth or belief in capitalism, then I suggest that there is no real point to having a discussion.
To be honest, I just don't get this thread......it seems fundamental to me. The coin should have been returned...no question. This is not ethically ambiguous at all.
keoj
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<< <i>I'm amazed how anyone could side against SB in this situation. >>
From reading this thread, I'm gathering that if this sort of thing happens to the "little guy", it's deplorable but in this case, it's okay because SB is a big company. >>
Yes, it's the "they can afford it" mentality. Should make no difference little guy, big guy, dealer, collector, a mistake is made, it's a mistake period. Not punishable by a monetary reward when no damages have been incurred.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
The eBay guy doth protest his ignorance too much.
Unless the guy is lying, he'll be dead before a court case closes and both parties will lose. SB would likely lose the PR battle, either way, but they may see it as an ethical question as well.
I have had several corporate attorneys tell me that they can keep anything but the most egregious, frivolous case in court for two years, if your only intent is to burn the other guys legal fees. Gotta love that system.
This happened one time when I saw a PCGS holdered coin listed by someone (who I know to have looser ethics than me.
That is the first thing I would have asked StacksBowers. At which point, they probably would have looked a little harder and found their mistake.
What do you think the eBayer would have done if he had gotten the coin but had looked at the wrong picture, and upon getting the coin saw that the coin he bought was misgraded by NGC and really was only worth $1,500? This is the type of person who would have called SB and said "Wait! I made a mistake and looked at the wrong picture! You have to buy the coin back! If you don't, I'm going to make a post on eBay telling everyone that SB sells misgraded coins!!!"
<< <i>I'm right there with TDN on this one.
If one beleives that there is a direct relationship between integrity/principles/honor and net worth or belief in capitalism, then I suggest that there is no real point to having a discussion.
To be honest, I just don't get this thread......it seems fundamental to me. The coin should have been returned...no question. This is not ethically ambiguous at all.
keoj >>
+1
<< <i>I find the responses in this thread quite perplexing. Seems Stacks Bowers has a lot of posters in their court.
Remember the thread about the dealer at the Pttsburg ANA who's employee sold an MS65 Red 1909S VDB as an 09 VDB for $200???? at the Pttsburg ANA
If I recall correctly the overall response was quite opposite to the responses here and the difference in value percentage wise was quite higher!
Does make 1 think! >>
Sounds like the Pittsburgh ANA show dealer may be one of those who does not put prices on coins at a show but rather has to reach for a sheet everytime someone inquires. That's not a good practice at a show and shows laziness IMO. It is a terrible practice when the dealer has assistants selling coins and only invites trouble.
<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!"
Agreed. NO difference.
<< <i>
<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!"
Agreed. NO difference. >>
I differ strongly. This case is about a mispriced item that the seller surely have multiples of the incorrect selling price invested in. A cherrypick is about unrecognized value in a coin that the dealer has nothing invested in the unrecognized portion of the value. It is priced like a common variety of the coin. There is a huge difference there.
Legally I don't see much that can been done here, the buyer wasn't in the wrong when he bought the coin even if he says he didn't know the real market value for this coin, which is tough to say because if I was about to drop $1500 I would do my homework, but nevertheless, the buyer contacted SB and asked if the coin was still available at the quoted price. He was told yes and then the buyer paid for the coin and it was shipped to him with the legal document of purchase.
Looks like a big screw up on management and someone will lose their job over this, maybe. But I think SB should honor the deal because that's what it was, a deal between the two parties that was confirmed up until a few days after the coin was shipped out and about to be delivered.
It should have never taken that long to catch a 15k mistake. I understand the ethical thing to do, and if it was me I would just return the coin. But the buyer certainly didn't steal the coin, but found a wormhole in SB's system and took advantage of it.
I'm just curious to hear and see what SB can legally do to acquire the coin back? This whole mess is their fault and now they gotta clean it up!
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<< <i>"See the cherrypick threads and the YOU SUCK awards of this forum. Plenty of people getting lucky and not paying more than the asking price despite the actual value of a coin... happens all the time here!"
The difference is there was a meeting of the minds in those instances. Once the company immediately declared it a [rather obvious, I might add] clerical mistake, there was no deal. >>
This is my sentiment, as well.
<< <i>The ebay seller is in the wrong. The ebay seller goes to great lengths to list his various and long term accomplishments in high end numismatics, which weakens any possible claim that the ebay seller was unaware of the true value of the coin in question. The coin was likely meant to be offered at $16,500 by SB and was mistakenly offered at $1,650. The ebay seller knew the price was in error because of his long history in the hobby, yet ordered the coin anyway and when approached by SB to return the obvious pricing error simply refused and pretended to be unaware of an issue. This is easy. I am also stunned at some of the replies. Do the right thing. >>
Great minds do think alike!
I just got home from my Calculus3 final and brain is fried... but I read some of this thread yesterday and decided to post a few mins ago. Then went back a few pages and read TomB's response... almost word for word...
Get his/the coin and moved on. It would be better for him if the world did not have to
know that he is a sleazy con man at heart.
Most people's sense of ethics here would side with SB. The law would probably side with the buyer. Either way, the buyer is a real donkey to gloat about it.
<< <i>Not sure if any of this is true or not, but it is interesting."
And I read 90% of the reply's ,along with the auction(Both interesting). I'd be happy with 10% "make it right" fee . 6-9 months to live this seller has so he may not care about the right thing to do. I've return mistakes(Not this bad) a number of times. One a forum member sent me 4 rolls of silver,but should have been 2. He got 2 back,after I picked the best ones.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I was S/B, I wouldn't give a crap about legalities or anything - I'd slap a lawsuit on him so fast that he'd be certain to spend $15k or more in legal fees. It's just not right to keep the coin once he's been notified it's a clerical error [and is obviously such]. >>
Better hope you win, because if you don't, you're likely facing a suit for malicious prosecution. >>
As to the first part: Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11 says you can get sanctioned if you file a frivolous lawsuit against someone, especially if you do so for the purpose of causing him to run up attorneys fees defending it. Link. If you want an example of bad ethics, suing someone just to "punish" him by making him spend money to defend himself, regardless of "legalities," is unethical. It's an abuse of the legal system which courts don't take lightly.
As to the second part: I don't think the court would find a lawsuit by S-B is frivolous; I'm sure they could come up with some valid legal arguments, as others have mentioned (e.g., unilateral mistake). Preferably they would research the law, and have a good faith basis for suing, before they "slapped" him with the lawsuit.
However, there is almost no way they would be able to get the coin back and make such a lawsuit worthwhile. Even if the guy defended the lawsuit himself (pro se) and didn't hire a lawyer, he could drag out the case and it would cost S-B way more than $15,000 before the case was resolved, with motions, pleadings, court appearances, etc. Even if S-B won, it would probably take effort and money to actually collect on the judgment or recover the coin. And if the guy hired a lawyer, I'm not at all sure S-B would win.
<< <i>Wise Sampson says cut it half and give each party one portion.
Most people's sense of ethics here would side with SB. The law would probably side with the buyer. Either way, the buyer is a real donkey to gloat about it. >>
Agree with this
Yes, probably too flippant and harsh. My bad. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Christine is the only person there who seems to be able to do anything. It's sad when a little guy like me has a direct relationship with her on just about everything I have done with them.
This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. I'm guessing someone looked at the wrong line on the price guide. I'm surprised that they don't have multiple levels of review just to make sure these things don't happen. It never hurts to have at least a couple of sets of eyes on these things. We aren't talking about 15 cent turkeys.
<< <i>This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. >>
Your argument is that $1,650 and $16,500 are different numbers, and that it is not a decimal point error?
<Someone getting screwed threads always have stamina. MJ>
This one comes from strong seed. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>This particular error is hardly clerical. Someone made a mistake. It wasn't a typo. He isn't saying it was a decimal place error. They are different numbers. >>
Your argument is that $1,650 and $16,500 are different numbers, and that it is not a decimal point error? >>
The original post states, 1650. And 15,000. Which further proves this thread has gone on long enough. Pretty much everyone has offered an opinion. So can we move on...