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Spain wins lawsuit over shipwreck recovered coins.
SkyMan
Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
Talk about getting screwed, the ~594,000 gold and silver coins worth ~ $500,000,000 that Odyssey Marine Exploration (OME) found on a galleon in 2007 must be returned to the Spanish government. OME not only gets nada, the ruling stated that the Spanish govt. didn't need to reimburse OME for preserving and storing the treasure. Here's a link to the article.
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I totally agree with the end couple of sentences that in essence the Spanish government has hurt it's long term chances, as there is no question IMO that any treasure recovery in the future will definitely be off the books.
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I totally agree with the end couple of sentences that in essence the Spanish government has hurt it's long term chances, as there is no question IMO that any treasure recovery in the future will definitely be off the books.
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They just destroyed the public/investing treasure business and market. Now it will move underground and secret. Just more proof the only thing the Government protects is itself and other Governments.
Ridiculous.
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<< <i>That is just wrong. I am sure that there is a huge expense in recovery and preservation of these coins. The company finds the treasure, recovers the treasure, endures high cost in the recovery-processing of the treasure and then instead of getting a reward they end up with an unrecoverable expense. Maybe Odyssey needs thier own suit for expenses incurred. >>
I didn't understand why there was (presumably) no counterclaim for quantum meruit, and if there was, why this counterclaim would have been unsuccessful. I agree with you 100% that Odyssey should be compensated for the recovery and conservation. I guess next time the companies should secretly sell the coins on eBay or melt them into bullion ingots that are untraceable.
I think Britain's Treasure Trove laws are much wiser. I'm sure their government and the British Museum have benefitted from many finds that would not have been reported at all, were the government greedier.
Of course Spain's right behind Greece and Italy in the European debt crisis, isn't it? Maybe its hard for them to see the long term consequences of their action with all that big pile of silver in front of them. Or maybe they just don't care. Or both.
<< <i>The funny part of the whole senario is why is Spain entitled to recover silver from the wreck when the silver Spain claims to own was plundered from South/Central America! Wonder if any of those countries will have the lightbulb in their head go off and sue Spain for what they have a stronger claim to IMHO! Is Pandora's Box going to open??? >>
Excellent point!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The funny part of the whole senario is why is Spain entitled to recover silver from the wreck when the silver Spain claims to own was plundered from South/Central America! Wonder if any of those countries will have the lightbulb in their head go off and sue Spain for what they have a stronger claim to IMHO! Is Pandora's Box going to open??? >>
Most of the coins were minted in what is now Peru, and the government of Peru has asserted a right to ownership. Spain has indicated that it will share the recovered coins with Peru.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
I agree.
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<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
Or, they could just say that's what they did.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>But isn't true that the Spanish gov't must now collect, and in order to collect effectively the US courts will have to agree, I always thought it is pretty darn hard for a foreign country to come to the US with a verdict handed down in that other country. So in essence if the Foreighn country doesn't take them to court here it ain't going to do them any good.
Holy chit ! I didn't realie that Spain sued Odessy in Fl, omg Odessy is screwed!
Sure seems like a stack deck here.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I do not understand how this verdict is possible. I had always believed that salvage laws were on the side of the finder. Guess I am wrong again....
This was the wreck of a warship that sank in international waters. That changes everything. For comparison, the Atocha (which had a fabulous cargo of coins and gemstones) sank in U.S. territorial waters, so Mel Fisher was able to get a fair chunk of the recovered items.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
Or just go to the middle of the deepest part of the ocean and drop it in some trench along the way.....
<< <i>
<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
Or just go to the middle of the deepest part of the ocean and drop it in some trench along the way..... >>
That would teach them.....just scatter them here and there, on a long, slow, ride. Dump some, travel a bit, dump some more, travel a bit, dump some more, etc.
Seems like everyone wins when these companies are able to freely recover valuable items and arrange for the appropriate government to get a mutually agreeable cut, no lawyers required.
<< <i>Some nerve on the spanish governments part >>
How about our own government? They backed Spain to the hilt on this one. That’s typical of this administration.
What the Spanish Government should do is pay for the recovery operations at a minimum.
As for the morality of the Spain government, they stole gold and silver from the Indians so they don’t have any more right to it anyone else.
<< <i>As for the morality of the Spain government, they stole gold and silver from the Indians so they don’t have any more right to it anyone else. >>
Yeah, I'd love to see descendants of the Aztecs, Incas and Mayans to sue Spain to recover this...
Box of 20
<< <i>In reality, governments and salvaging companies should be forming agreements and partnerships in a profit-sharing arrangement, not suing each other or pursuing bad policies that encourage the salvage operations version of "tax evasion".
Seems like everyone wins when these companies are able to freely recover valuable items and arrange for the appropriate government to get a mutually agreeable cut, no lawyers required. >>
Agree with negotiating an agreement but it must be done after the ship is discovered and a few samples are recovered as proof but before full scale recovery starts. Also, the ship's location needs to be kept secret until after a contract or agreement is signed by the finder and the original owner.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Where do they say it was from in the first place? I've not ever heard of any historic gold deposits in Spain. And they got it by "conquest", did they not?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Also, the ship's location needs to be kept secret until after a contract or agreement is signed by the finder and the original owner. >>
The problem here is that the person who provides the samples as proof to the government can find themselves forcibly "detained" until the location is disclosed.
They lost.
I would like to have seen a settlement outside of court.
FWIW: I'm a shareholder of OMEX.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>I don't believe the spin. Odyssey knew all along precisely which ship this was, and knew all along what the maritime law surrounding naval vessels was. I'm sure that's at least in part why they dubbed this operation "Black Swan" rather than "Mercedes". They made a calculated risk that the ship would be seen as a merchant ship rather than a naval vessel.
They lost. >>
Maybe, but with this and the Langbord suit, one has to wonder:
Is it possible to win a significant civil judgment in a dispute over property ownership when the other party is the same government that runs the courts and legal system, and where the government is willing to throw its unlimited resources to obtain it?
Seems like this puts the private party in the position of the Washington Generals.
<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
Yes! The "Little House on the Prarie" solution. (If anyone saw the final episode, a land baron bought the town so the good people of Walnut Grove dynamited the buildings)
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, the ship's location needs to be kept secret until after a contract or agreement is signed by the finder and the original owner. >>
The problem here is that the person who provides the samples as proof to the government can find themselves forcibly "detained" until the location is disclosed. >>
"Forcibly detained" sounds like taking someone as a hostage which is unlikely in this country or any free democratatic country. The negotiation would take place on neutral ground or by a representative that doesn't have any detailed knowledge of the ship's location.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>"Forcibly detained" sounds like taking someone as a hostage which is unlikely in this country or any free democratatic country. The negotiation would take place on neutral ground or by a representative that doesn't have any detailed knowledge of the ship's location. >>
I don't want to sound like some paranoid delusional anti-government person, but even the most free democratic countries have found ways to hold people on purposely trumped-up charges to gain leverage toward what they really want. If they claim it's stolen property, for example, they could hold you for possession of stolen property.
Odyssey angry US tried to trade gold for looted painting
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Also note that our Justice Department filed a brief in favor of the Spanish position in this case.
I'm shaking my head....
[Edit] OnlyGoldIsMoney -- I didn't see your post before I posted this. Sorry!
If I was OME, I would personally take all the buckets of treasure back to Spain and have a little "oceanic mishap" along the way where most, if not all, of it happens to fall overboard. Blame it on a rogue wave, but be sure to hit the store button on the GPS when that wave "hits".
I have a gut feeling that we won't hear anything else about any more treasure finds, especially of stolen spanish silver and gold.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>A Wired Magazine story says Wikileaks cables show that the US State Department attempted to engineer "a quid pro quo deal to assist that country [Spain] in its battle with Odyssey for the treasure" in exchange for "assistance in returning a $20 million Pissarro painting to a U.S. family [of one Claude Cassirer] that says it was unfairly obtained by the Nazis in Germany." >>
I can totally appreciate a government seeking the return of property to a family who essentially had it stolen by the Nazis. What I can't appreciate is being willing to sacrifice a third party which had nothing to do with that theft in order to do it.
<< <i>A Wired Magazine story says Wikileaks cables show that the US State Department attempted to engineer "a quid pro quo deal to assist that country [Spain] in its battle with Odyssey for the treasure" in exchange for "assistance in returning a $20 million Pissarro painting to a U.S. family [of one Claude Cassirer] that says it was unfairly obtained by the Nazis in Germany."
Also note that our Justice Department filed a brief in favor of the Spanish position in this case.
I'm shaking my head....
[Edit] OnlyGoldIsMoney -- I didn't see your post before I posted this. Sorry! >>
Good summary of the issue. It would be interesting to know if U.S. family looking for the painting is a prominent campaign donor.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>It would be interesting to know if U.S. family looking for the painting is a prominent campaign donor >>
Is there really any doubt in your mind??? Cheers, RickO
<< <i>It would be interesting to know if U.S. family looking for the painting is a prominent campaign donor. >>
A comment on another article about the decision makes this claim, but I couldn't confirm it in a hasty search.
To what extent is our government a kleptocracy?
Box of 20
<< <i>To what extent is our government a kleptocracy? >>
Ask the Langbords. (Yeah, I know there is a "stolen property" claim by the government and even it was, they have very flimsy evidence IMO -- but they are the government, so they don't seem to need the same burden of proof. It's like the old SNL skit, "we don't care, we don't have to -- we're the Phone Company". "Because we said so" is simply not an acceptable legal standard.)
Seriously, though, as it relates to this situation with the Spanish government -- if our government sees that Peter robbed Paul, it's fine and good with me that the government wants to help Paul become whole again. But the only entity that should be thrown under the bus to do it is Peter. Don't rob from Charlie to make Paul whole; this would be two wrongs not making a right.)
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be interesting to know if U.S. family looking for the painting is a prominent campaign donor. >>
A comment on another article about the decision makes this claim, but I couldn't confirm it in a hasty search.
To what extent is our government a kleptocracy? >>
I guess it helps to be a prominent political activist. I found this quickly. More is likely out there.
October 5, 2010 (La Mesa) – Claude Cassirer, who survived an internment camp during World War II and became a lecturer in schools teaching students about the Holocaust, died on September 25, 2010. A portrait photographer, he later became a volunteer and licensed ombudsman for the State of California for more than 20 years, striving to assure proper healthcare for seniors. He and his wife, Beverly, were also prominent political activists and co-founders of the La Mesa Foothills Democratic Club.
Recently, Cassirer made headlines by winning a court battle in September that allowed him to sue the government of Spain. His lawsuit sought to recover a Pissarro painting stolen from his grandparents by the Nazis, but he passed away before he could see his long-time dream fulfilled.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
And the lawyer
Defence: Maritime Lawyer James Goold represents Spain in the case against Florida treasure-hunting company Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc, and argued that the coins are a national treasure
UK News
I like some of the comments made by the Brits
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>That is just wrong. I am sure that there is a huge expense in recovery and preservation of these coins. The company finds the treasure, recovers the treasure, endures high cost in the recovery-processing of the treasure and then instead of getting a reward they end up with an unrecoverable expense. Maybe Odyssey needs thier own suit for expenses incurred. >>
I agree 100%.
<< <i>
<< <i>That is just wrong. I am sure that there is a huge expense in recovery and preservation of these coins. The company finds the treasure, recovers the treasure, endures high cost in the recovery-processing of the treasure and then instead of getting a reward they end up with an unrecoverable expense. Maybe Odyssey needs thier own suit for expenses incurred. >>
I agree 100%. >>
Spain you suck! Finders keepers I say, or at least a finders fee for the finder. I guess possession being 9/10ths of the law is out of the question. If Spain has any kind of a ethical bone they will pay back the fees it cost those who recovered the treasure. Of coarse my comments are only based on what I read.
Box of 20
<< <i>They should just dump all the loot back into the site it was found and say "there you go!" >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That is just wrong. I am sure that there is a huge expense in recovery and preservation of these coins. The company finds the treasure, recovers the treasure, endures high cost in the recovery-processing of the treasure and then instead of getting a reward they end up with an unrecoverable expense. Maybe Odyssey needs thier own suit for expenses incurred. >>
I agree 100%. >>
Spain you suck! Finders keepers I say, or at least a finders fee for the finder. I guess possession being 9/10ths of the law is out of the question. If Spain has any kind of a ethical bone they will pay back the fees it cost those who recovered the treasure. Of coarse my comments are only based on what I read. >>
I would say the judge sucks more so than Spain.
<< <i>What about the SS Republic Sunken Treasure. Why didn't the U.S. claim this treasure? Too small of a treasure to bother with maybe? >>
Let's not stir that up. I won some of that treasure in a Heritage drawing. Didn't even know I was in on it!
Lance.