Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
<< <i>Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
I purchased my first hand gun in April. Sig 229 - 40 Cal. For 8 months now I've done training at the indoor range. Today, for the first time I shot at the gun club .... metal targets, five stations.... it was a blast.
Can't stress enough that one needs to practice alot. Once a week minimum.
<< <i>Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
Miles >>
It's not often you can fit Christian Slater, Dennis Hopper, Val Kilmer, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Walken, Brad Pitt, Gary Oldman, Bronson Pinchot, James Gandofino, Chris Penn, Tom Sizemore and Patricia Arquette of course in one movie and it basically goes unnoticed. Huge cult classic written by Quentin Taranito.
I was blown away by the Alabama Whitman character. She embodied all the characteristics I treasure in people with maintaining loyalty in the face of adversity being numbero uno. I wanted the same in a dog. My puppy selection was a multi state nine month search and when I found her I knew from jump street that she was the one. She tested off the charts. The name "Alabama" came instantly. Bull mastiffs are notoriously loyal and my Alabama did not disappoint. She's a beast of a friend........MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>OK, I will man up. I've never been a huge fan of guns and I really don't know much about them. I do respect them however. I want to buy a gun for home defense . I don't actually keep PM's at home but I want to make this thread compliant. Suggestions? Point and click and deadly would be fine by me. Cost is not important to me. I will take the necessary firearms lessons as well. TIA. MJ >>
I didn't read the other posts, but this is my strong suggestion based on your information.
Start with a .38 caliber handgun, "double action" revolver with a 2 inch barrel, and use hollow point bullets. Buy a new one, do not buy a used one.
If an intruder comes into your home, you are gonna be scared as yell but just breathe easy, and control it and grab the gun. With an automatic handgun, there's too much "thinking" involved - do not buy an automatic because you are a newbie. With the gun mentioned, if you need to defend yourself against an armed threat, you just point and pull the trigger, and I promise you, even if the intruder is high on drugs, he won't feel very good after that hollow point bullet does its job, and he won't be going very far.
Note the above comment is a general synopsis, there are legal issues that you need to read about, and I would recommend a training course on that and training on the handgun...and practice, practice, practice. Have a strategy for a possible intruder as far as what you will do if the situation occurs. You don't want to be "analyzing" too much in that situation, you need to be reacting.
It's not often you can fit Christian Slater, Dennis Hopper, Val Kilmer, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Walken, Brad Pitt, Gary Oldman, Bronson Pinchot, James Gandofino, Chris Penn, Tom Sizemore and Patricia Arquette of course in one movie and it basically goes unnoticed. Huge cult classic written by Quentin Taranito.
I was blown away by the Alabama Whitman character. She embodied all the characteristics I treasure in people with maintaining loyalty in the face of adversity being numbero uno. I wanted the same in a dog. My puppy selection was a multi state nine month search and when I found her I knew from jump street that she was the one. She tested off the charts. The name "Alabama" came instantly. Bull mastiffs are notoriously loyal and my Alabama did not disappoint. She's a beast of a friend........MJ >>
What a fantastic journey you experienced to find "a beast of a friend" MJ!
I am betting those same qualities exist in spades with you which leads me to believe she landed in the best home available.
Honor is the most important of many personality charactersitics I admire. It can rarely be tested without great internal strife.
We went with a Mossberg 20 gauge youth model shotgun. Its loaded with #6 shot and im told it will put down the most determined of home invading scum. The advantages of a 20 ga youth model are its overall shorter length, and lighter weight vs its 12 ga big brother. As a strictly home defense weapon, its perfect. IMO, there isnt a real need for a "big" shotgun....unless you plan to multipurpose it for hunting.
Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
Well congrats you can a least fight if needed, that's a must. Espeally if you take the advise of some of these way under power guns listed here. A .22 LR will kill someone but guess what you might be dead too before they die or are disabled. That's not a win in my book.
I've taken quite a few handgun and rifle classes at USSA here with train law enforcement as well as our military. Handguns need quite a bit of practice to be any good. You might get one good shot before all he77 breaks loose and everyone is running or diving for cover. That's why trained LEO's don't even have a 50% hit rate as well as they must pursue the BG. Good news we don't, all we have to do if defended a position.
Best home defense for the novice:
1. Shotgun 12 ga #1 buck to 00 buck. Ends a fight quick and takes much less practice which can be done shooting skeet, trap, or sporting clays. Mossburg(low cost), Remington pumps are fairly cheap and go bang every time. I keep a Maverick 88 by my bed. They're under $200 at a sporting goods store. You'd want the 20 inch or less barrel for home defense.
Handguns
Take your pick go to an indoor range and try several models: Glock, Colt, HK, Springfield, Sig....and the list goes on. Stay away from the .380's I have a little Keltec P3AT I carry for a backup gun. It's a 7 foot gun so you better be able to defend yourself using such a under power round. Look at the 38 special or 9mm up. Shoot the biggest round you can all handgun rounds are under power. Here's some I like and why.
1. S&W 442 38 special - a revolver with a decent round with proven stopping power. Very small and will fit in your pocket, big hands aren't a plus here but the .380 are worse and recoil more than any gun I list. I don't carry the Keltec much anymore since my S&W j frame. The problem with the little .380's are they aren't target guns and you won't want to shoot more than a mag or two. You need the practice.
2. Glock 19 - They go bang every time, easy to clean, cheap to fix. The best rounds would be Federal HST's, Win Rangers, or Speer Gold dots to name a few. The advantage of this gun as well as the one above is they are guns you can shoot and practice at the range. The 9mm's cost about $10 a box of 50 while a box of 38 specials are around $34 per 100 at Wally world. An additional advantage with this gun is you can purchase a complete Advantage Arms (AA) slide that will convert this gun to a .22 LR to practice at the range with. A box of Remington are about 15 bucks per 550.
I carry a 19 all the time. I'm a CCW holder. They are a little fat for IWB for me but I just have to cant the gun. A home gun this is a good all round gun but you could go with a Glock 17 which is a full size gun. I have both and prefer the 19 since I seems to shoot them about the same. The 9mm's and 38's are good for the beginner and your wife of teens won't have an issue with them either.
As long as it a 9mm up guns like the Sig 226 or 228, HK's, S&W or about any high quality firearms manufacture are fine but expect to pay more.
3. Colt, Kimber, Springfield .45 - The .45 is one of the best close quarter rounds and are time proven stopping power. So if your urban don't over look these. Recoil is fairly mild since it pushes back and doesn't exhibit the muzzle flip of a .40 the other popular round. Now if you lived on a ranch I'd rather have a .357 mag since it's a flat shooting round and is the best all round round in the pistol cartridges.
Rifle:
AR15 or Mini 14 in .223. You can defend great with one of these little guns but if your Urban it's not what you want. Country with few neighbors is fine.
If your thinking civil unrest then a rifle or shotgun is what you need. A handgun is worthless at longer ranges.
I might add any handgun you purchase should have night sights since most shooting occurs in low lights. You can get a laser but they need batteries and can fail, as well as give your position away. You should have a good flashlight too and know how to hold it with your gun if it's not mounted on it. Blinding your opponent is effective.
If you ever get a change to take a close quarter class do so. you will find out how easy closing 12ft on a person is and why gun retention is a must while engaging in hand to hand combat. A real moving person is never going to be like shooting still targets. Find a range with moving targets is a plus with any handgun or weapons in general (shotgun/rifle).
If you get a shotgun and take some of the advice of using bird shot (7 1/2, 8, 6 for that matter). That is what you use at the range. These rounds don't kill small game very far and you'll find no real expert that would suggest you use a round as this. It cause shallow wounds that cause a lot of bleeding but the BG won't bleed out fast enough that you won't be in hand-to-hand. If I were using a round as this I'd shoot for the head/eyes and have a full choke to extend the range. I've hunted ducks, dove, geese, quail all my life and I sure wouldn't trust a round for a very small game to disable a human. Hey but you can exploit the wound in a fight to extend the "life and death" excitement if you prefer
One other point I might mention. We have home invasions here with 2 to 4 people. In this case a shotgun or semi-auto is a must. The revolver just doesn't have enough rounds for that many opponents (5 to 6 most) but after the first shot or two everyone will be trying to flee anyway in my opinion. The better revolver for strictly home defense would be a large N frame weapon like the S&W 627. It holds 8 rounds (.357 mag; which can shoot 38 special for practice) and the cylinder can be cut for moon clips (a mag for revolvers, I like them better than the speed loaders). S&W also makes a night guard series which has night sights but the 627 has the ability to replace the sights with night sights.
Took my new .22 magnum pistol (Kel-Tec PMR-30) to the firing range yesterday and blew off a couple of hundred rounds. I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems. I'll keep this one next to the bed at night.
<< <i>Took my new .22 magnum pistol (Kel-Tec PMR-30) to the firing range yesterday and blew off a couple of hundred rounds. I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems. I'll keep this one next to the bed at night. >>
I hope you can engage the BG at 25 yards then. Really these light sub sonic rounds bounce off bones and exit or you can pray it hits bone and bouncing around inside of someone. The first question you should ask yourself would a LEO carry a particular round/gun for his primary? If not that's not a round you want. As backup it's fine but this isn't a primary round.
.380 > .22 mag > .22 LR > .25 auto
None of these rounds perform disabling an attack in a single shot or has much of a chance unless your real lucky. The BG isn't going to be standing still with his chest exposed to do a COM shot as a target. You can close a 12 ft distance in 1 shot and your most likely going to be shooting though someones arm on a closing move. Buy less guns get more training is my advice. A combat handgun course (CLEET certified) is a plus and then you move to the real life stuff in latter courses like close quarters combat.
No doubt you might be able to hold a defensive position and chase someone off but this round isn't a man stopper and I wouldn't want to have to fend off multiple home invasion opponents with a gun like this. That said it's not bad to have a gun like this in an obscure place but it shouldn't be your "go to gun" IMO.
The other issue is a .22 mag ammo isn't reliable for defense as no rim fire is. The round is expensive and you could shoot a 9mm about as cheap which is about the minimum round you'd want with very little recoil.
A beginner should at least take a basic pistol course. Learning how to hold, draw, and reloading is a must. If you hold a gun wrong you'll never be as accurate as well as you won't be able to control the gun for follow up shots very well.
I prefer the M1911 auto for home defense but I wouldn't recommend it for a non-gun person. A double action revolver is easier to use and understand for the typical homeowner who isn't interested in guns as a hobby. A 38 special revolver or a 357 revolver loaded with 38 specials is a good compromise between recoil and stopping power.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Took my new .22 magnum pistol (Kel-Tec PMR-30) to the firing range yesterday and blew off a couple of hundred rounds. I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems. I'll keep this one next to the bed at night. >>
I hope you can engage the BG at 25 yards then. Really these light sub sonic rounds bounce off bones and exit or you can pray it hits bone and bouncing around inside of someone. The first question you should ask yourself would a LEO carry a particular round/gun for his primary? If not that's not a round you want. As backup it's fine but this isn't a primary round.
.380 > .22 mag > .22 LR > .25 auto
None of these rounds perform disabling an attack in a single shot or has much of a chance unless your real lucky. The BG isn't going to be standing still with his chest exposed to do a COM shot as a target. You can close a 12 ft distance in 1 shot and your most likely going to be shooting though someones arm on a closing move. Buy less guns get more training is my advice. A combat handgun course (CLEET certified) is a plus and then you move to the real life stuff in latter courses like close quarters combat.
No doubt you might be able to hold a defensive position and chase someone off but this round isn't a man stopper and I wouldn't want to have to fend off multiple home invasion opponents with a gun like this. That said it's not bad to have a gun like this in an obscure place but it shouldn't be your "go to gun" IMO.
The other issue is a .22 mag ammo isn't reliable for defense as no rim fire is. The round is expensive and you could shoot a 9mm about as cheap which is about the minimum round you'd want with very little recoil.
A beginner should at least take a basic pistol course. Learning how to hold, draw, and reloading is a must. If you hold a gun wrong you'll never be as accurate as well as you won't be able to control the gun for follow up shots very well.
Good Luck >>
In the unlikely event of a home invasion, my "go to" weapon of choice is my 12 ga. shotgun The pistol is a backup but it does hold 30 rounds of ammo - more than enough to stop any evil-doer. I also have a 9MM Luger but that thing jams up frequently.
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed.
Note when you buy the new gun (don't buy a used one) and ask for a .38 you will automatically be getting a .38 special. I don't think a .38 has been made in a very long time. Many decades at least.
Some here recommend a shotgun and that's their prerogative...but the problem is in a "panic" situation like this, and your heart is beating rapidly and the adrenaline is flowing like crazy, the house will likely be dark, and then you're trying to maneuver a shotgun - what could happen is you could bang it or jam it against a wall or rail or something because of its length, and those critical seconds you lose could be deadly. Remember the intruder may not be standing still.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but what if you have a wife and kids, and they need to use the weapon? Handling and using a .38 is much, much easier for them than a shotgun.
I own firearms which include a 12 gauge shotgun and a S&W .357 model 686. If an intruder/s comes into my house, and there is an armed threat from them...I'm know I'm grabbing my .357
Note that a "strategy" against intruders if you do also get a shotgun, they are usually not novices to crime and guns, just simply "c0ching" a shotgun, they should know and understand that sound, the sound alone may scare them away. But again, you can practice and get training on all of this and decide what is best for you and your family.
Also...you don't have to buy a gun to practice firing one. Most firing ranges will lend you a gun for 5 or 10 bucks for use on the range when you buy the bullets there. They usually have a number of guns there to lend, including a .38 and a .357, so you can try using them both before making a decision.
Good luck, and remember, luck favors the prepared...so, get lots of practice!
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto.
I like the Springfield 1911's, I have 2, a standard 1911 and a Compact there pretty basic and proven, as for a shotgun, again, I'm old school and have a surplus CHP 12 gauge 870 riot pump, again basic and proven.
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
You guys can stick with your handguns and when you miss and that round goes thru the walls you better pray your wife or kids arent in the other room.
I've killed deer with #6 birdshot that i've found injured after being hit by cars. If at 10-15ft that will kill a deer than I am certain a human will not fair very well. And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot. The energy in a .38 round is about 300 ft lbs, in a load of #2 turkey shot about 1800 ft lbs. If Alexander Hamilton had a 12 ga shotgun and Aaron Burr a Glock 9mm, I am highly confident the outcome would have been very different.
Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose.
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
If there are more, then they better be prepared to deal with one crazy MF. To protect my family I'll rip off my own arm and beat you with it.
Most residential robberies happen in daylight when no one is home. A cat burglar sculking around at night in your home looking for loot does happen but most of the time....it's broad daylight and they know when you come and go. It's no coincidence that they hit on payday. They case banks, jewelers, check cashing sevices, coin shows because that is where cash moves. They also read internet chatrooms. They are quite capable of going to the assessors office with your last name and seeing which property has a HO exemption next to it.
Robbers are chicken chits. They are not looking for a confrontation, just money.
They've already cased their prey when they go into your house. Or confront you in your vehicle after you leave the bank. Or follow you after a coin show. And it's frequently a team that's involved.
If they know you keep concentrated or pawnable wealth at home or in your vehicle that is easy to rob, you are behind the curve. In many cases, if you get robbed---you'll get robbed again down the road.
Remember, robbers and thieves are lazy people. The harder you make them work...the more likelyhood that they move to an easier target.
I should have mentioned peperspay/OC is a must. There's no one good weapon it more of a system. The gun is the 1%, tatics/training is the 99% but most spend all there time on the 1%.
Here's a few of my favorites. Feel free to join lots of discussion and nice folks that are shooter. Lot's of LEO's too as well a military.
Anyone here should read at least one of these post from Mr. Brown and read the first page he goes more in depth. He's a TPD SWAT officer as well as an MMA guy. He's been in the line of fire and here's what he knows you need to consider.
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
You guys can stick with your handguns and when you miss and that round goes thru the walls you better pray your wife or kids arent in the other room.
I've killed deer with #6 birdshot that i've found injured after being hit by cars. If at 10-15ft that will kill a deer than I am certain a human will not fair very well. And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot. The energy in a .38 round is about 300 ft lbs, in a load of #2 turkey shot about 1800 ft lbs. If Alexander Hamilton had a 12 ga shotgun and Aaron Burr a Glock 9mm, I am highly confident the outcome would have been very different.
Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose.
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
If there are more, then they better be prepared to deal with one crazy MF. To protect my family I'll rip off my own arm and beat you with it. >>
<<< And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot >>>
Of course, but I'd rather hit something with something, than not hit anything with something. Try walking down steps holding a shotgun to try to fire it or maneuver with it in your house, even under the best of conditions, it's not easy...and then asking a newbie, or his wife or kid to try to do it under stressful conditions? Sorry not for me.
Outdoors, yes, a shotgun is much better, try hunting squirrels and rabbits with a .38 (LOL)...but indoors, I'm taking my .357 along for the ride.
<<< Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose. >>>
Not necessarily. The key is to focus on the one closest to you and concentrate on him only...if the firing begins, take out the one, and the chances are very good the other ones will flee. If they don't flee, then focus on the next one closest.
It's rare, even in a firefight outdoors, unless it's two gangs fighting or something like that, that more than a few rounds are fired. Six rounds in a revolver should be plenty, even for 4 intruders. If ya feel the need for more rounds, than buy two revolvers and have one ready in your belt or holster,
Those are my viewpoints - all the other comments are interesting as well. The newbie should go to the range, check out the various guns, bring the wife and kids to the range as well...then a more informed choice can be made as to what is best.
Whatever the newbie decides to do, doing something is infinitely better than doing nothing. Those folks who make the decision not to have firearms in their homes, it's their decision...but in my view if the discussed situation arises, I intend to have the intruders at my mercy, not the other way around.
I have a S&W .380 bodyguard I Keep in my car and a S&W .38 bodyguard I keep in my truck, both guns have built in factory lazor sites and i got them for a great price on sale. One thing I do need to do with both guns is put in a trigger with a softer pull but I am used to the heavier hammer action. I also bring my Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum when I go on trips so I can leave it in the vehicle and carry my bodyguards on me. As for home defense I have a Weatherby 5 shot home defense 12 guage pump shotgun loaded with 5 shot, my backup is a Taurus Judge .410 pistol loaded with 4 shot. I have many other guns but nobody in their right mind is gonna use an AR-15 for home defense.
I read an FBI report several years ago that said the average gun fight is: 2 bullets, in 2 seconds, at 2 meters.
(No don't ask me to find the report, I'm not going to spend hours on the internet looking for out dated FBI report.)
Cohodk has a good point about bullets go thru walls. I use Glaser safety rounds ......... the first 4 rounds are safety bullets... then you get real hollow points!
Si vis pacem, para bellum
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
The AA12 is a post sample machine gun so you need a Class 2 license to get one, you can get one of these, by Tromix as a SBS (short barrel shotgun $200 tax stamp) or a 19" barrel. They take MD-Arms 20 Rd. drums or Siaga or equivalent 10 rd. stick mags. I have one and they are great, handle little systems!
I keep this Serbu in my night stand, it is a registered AOW (Any Other Weapon $5 federal tax stamp), I used it for EOD door breaching in Iraq and Afg. and fell in love with it, nice and handy. 2 in the tube and one in the chamber.
<< <i>I have a S&W .380 bodyguard I Keep in my car and a S&W .38 bodyguard I keep in my truck, both guns have built in factory lazor sites and i got them for a great price on sale. One thing I do need to do with both guns is put in a trigger with a softer pull but I am used to the heavier hammer action. I also bring my Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum when I go on trips so I can leave it in the vehicle and carry my bodyguards on me. As for home defense I have a Weatherby 5 shot home defense 12 guage pump shotgun loaded with 5 shot, my backup is a Taurus Judge .410 pistol loaded with 4 shot. I have many other guns but nobody in their right mind is gonna use an AR-15 for home defense. >>
i use the rugar p101 .357 as well. its a nice weapon to carry
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
Cool , being from the UK im not up on all the terms but i was gifted a nice pump action shotgun and the shells are "slugs" and when you said magnum it rang a bell , that's what it is we have here. Theres that and a few handguns , all revolvers and youve cleared something up for me too there , for an old .38 i have i was told id need a certain cartridge with certain powder , i was told this on the S&W forum , youve explained what it is much more clearly , i was able to get the shells in boxes of 50 so that was cool too , happy as larry now i know what it is , thanks
<< <i>BTW, I meant to include this website just as a point of reference regarding the law. There may well be many that are worth having reference to, this is one.
i am in the market for a pistol as well, thanks for all the input here.
for the most part, a shotgun is not as much fun to practice with.
<< <i>Robbers are chicken chits. They are not looking for a confrontation, just money. Remember, robbers and thieves are lazy people. The harder you make them work...the more likelyhood that they move to an easier target. >>
<< <i> plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing? >>
i personally know of 2 instances where the noise was a sufficient deterent; both times the robber(s) fled the residence immedaitely upon hearing the shell loading. no shots fired.
in 1 of those, the armed robber was caught the following night 2 blocks away.
One "big problem" out there today is the 3 strikes law, which I happen to strongly agree with, but...if an intruder has 2 strikes, and he is prosecuted for this 3rd strike of breaking into your home, he could face life in prison...he may prefer not to have any witnesses. So for that reason alone, I believe it is very foolish in this day & age not to be properly armed and prepared.
Again...you want the intruder to be at your mercy...do you really want to be at his mercy?
These are the two I mentioned previously, a 9mm Glock 19, and a .380 Ruger LCP. I really like the Glock for a few reasons, I can sight it nicely, it seems to be accurate enough for me, and it doesn't have too much kick. I bought the LCP as a concealed carry gun, and it is concealable but it kicks more than I like, and it seems much harder to be accurate with.
This gun is a 1985 .22 H&R Sidekick, 9-shot, double action which I've had for a long time. It has a 6 inch barrel, and I like it because it seems to be accurate and is fun to shoot.
This is the 20 gauge Remington 1100, with a 20 inch barrel that I bought for home protection. I bought the smaller gauge because I'm not a big guy and I'm sure to keep getting older. Even though it's only a 20 gauge, this is the one I mentioned that I'd hate to be in front of when it goes off. It's got a 4-shell magazine (2 3/4 inch shells) and you can pre-load the chamber for a 5th. I figure that a warning shot is probably better than scaring them off just with the noise that chambering a shell makes.
This gun is my fiancee's Dan Wesson .357 Magnum. Double action, 6" barrel and a very nice shot because it is accurate and smooth to shoot. It's the ability to actually hit something that makes shooting fun.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Very interesting thread. I grew up on a farm with plenty of guns. Red foxes used to come after the chickens and woodchucks invaded my grandmother's garden. As a teen I had a single shot Remington .22 rifle. Later a nice 7 shot Marlin .22 with scope. Took the hunting course. All those guns are gone now except my father's old circa 1946 auto. High Standard .22LR pistol [New Haven, CT] which my Mom just passed down to me. Also she passed down an Ithaca M37 12 gauge pump shotgun. My girlfriend gave me a Crossman pellet gun for pesky squirrels raiding the bird feeder but I haven't shot any. I keep a real Collins [Collinsville, CT] 22 inch machete under the bed. I go to coin shows to buy and sell and have been considering taking the concealed carry course. A local guy charges $125 for a private one to one course. Then it's another 370 bucks I guess for the permits. I went for 30 years with no guns and just in the last 4 months have had these 3 given to me. So now I have some questions. I have serious questions regarding actually shooting a crook and the legal hot water I would be in. I know nothing about what my rights are in a car robbery if I am in the car and a crook forces his way in. The home invasion was once discussed with a 91 yr. old man [beekeeper] who ran a honey business out of his home. He said a cop friend told him that if he shoots a robber make sure you kill him. And if you shoot a robber running away out in your yard with your cash, drag him back in your house before calling the cops.
First off thank you for the participation in this thread. I spent 8 hours with a NRA instructor today and applied for my CPL permit after the session. I LOVED the range and surprised myself as I slaughtered all of the 8 1/2 X11 intruders rather easily . I did equally as well with both hands. We trained with a glock today. For sure I will try other pistols and train a lot more before I get my permit (six to eight weeks). I just left the County Clerks Office and records department where I was relieved of some cash and finger printed. I'm glad I knocked this out. Without this forum I don't think I would have been this proactive once I made up my mind. Again I'm thankful for this place......
<read an FBI report several years ago that said the average gun fight is: 2 bullets, in 2 seconds, at 2 meters.>
In the NRA material it stated the average gun fight was 3 bullets, in 3 seconds at 3 yards FWIW.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I do most sports left handed but throw with my right. My right eye is my dominate one so I'm a righty shooter. However, he did force me to shoot a lot with my left hand (one handed) from different angles. All were hits in the circles . I got a dayum from my exTexas instructor. My instructor was a cop, ex-military with a Fed background as well. It was nice to have one on one training as I suck in group instructions at anything. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
See, shooting is a lot of fun and leaving a few frn's with a good instructor is like taking golf lessons; it's more rewarding when you know what you're doing and range time is pretty inexpensive entertainment...a lot less than green fees. Welcome to the club.
I'm usually a Browning High Power kind of guy, the hard chrome one is my regular carry gun and the other resides on my side of the bed.
But I don't recommend them (or a 1911) unless someone has been around single action semi's a long time and is used to them. For a handgun my choice would be a Springfield XD full size in 9mm. I keep this one (now with a Laser and light) in my wifes bedside table. It's simple, reasonably accurate, moderate recoil, and has a point and click interface. It also has a grip safety, unlike the Glocks which I do not recommend. You have to fully grip the pistol and pull the trigger to get it to go bang, no hanging the trigger up on clothes when you reholster and shooting yourself in the leg.
Rifles, probably not, although I keep both an AR15 in .223 and an AR15 with a 5.7 upper ready to go they are really for the zombie invasions. Shotguns are fine if you are hunkered down in a space with plenty of room to handle it, I have a Mossberg 500 with an 8 round extended magazine, 18" barrel with heay shield and all the gadgets, but it's not what I grab first.
Another good standby is a revolver, something like this in .357 mag, or the new Taurus in .410/.45 Colt would also do a good job.
I am also a firm believer in lasers and lights, gun fights aren't supposed to be fair so get every advantage you can. I've been a serious shooter for over 50 years, starting with junior NRA rimfire competition, bullseye pistol competitions when I was with Beachjumper 2 in the Navy, and I still shoot IDPA and 3 gun events on a regular basis. Lasers and lights give you an advantage, regardless of what the "real men" who only shoot iron sights will tell you.
I've got lots of choices, but I choose a semi auto pistol, if need be I can use it to fight my way to a real gun.
Comments
Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
Miles
<< <i>Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
Miles >>
Wow, this thread just did a 180.
That 12 gauge pump good club too!
<< <i>OK, back to basics, what pistol did Clarence have in his belt in the shoot-out scene?? >>
S/W 357
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
A Brief History of Time in the Movie for gun buffs...
Miles
Can't stress enough that one needs to practice alot. Once a week minimum.
<< <i>Not 'Alabama' from True Romance, by chance MJ??! >>
Bingo my friend.........
Amid the chaos of that day, when all I could hear was the thunder of gunshots, and all I could smell was the violence in the air, I look back and am amazed that my thoughts were so clear and true, that three words went through my mind endlessly, repeating themselves like a broken record: you're so cool, you're so cool, you're so cool. And sometimes Clarence asks me what I would have done if he had died, if that bullet had been two inches more to the left. To this, I always smile, as if I'm not going to satisfy him with a response. But I always do. I tell him of how I would want to die, but that the anguish and the want of death would fade like the stars at dawn, and that things would be much as they are now. Perhaps. Except maybe I wouldn't have named our son Elvis.
MJ >>
Damn, MJ, you had me at Alabama!
That film happens to be one of most favorite "romances" ever and that ending scene with the music, post hyper-violence, post loss of eye....
Well, brought droplets to my eyes every time my friend. Superb name choice for your esteemed girl! Brilliant, by the way.
Miles >>
It's not often you can fit Christian Slater, Dennis Hopper, Val Kilmer, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Walken, Brad Pitt, Gary Oldman, Bronson Pinchot, James Gandofino, Chris Penn, Tom Sizemore and Patricia Arquette of course in one movie and it basically goes unnoticed. Huge cult classic written by Quentin Taranito.
I was blown away by the Alabama Whitman character. She embodied all the characteristics I treasure in people with maintaining loyalty in the face of adversity being numbero uno. I wanted the same in a dog. My puppy selection was a multi state nine month search and when I found her I knew from jump street that she was the one. She tested off the charts. The name "Alabama" came instantly. Bull mastiffs are notoriously loyal and my Alabama did not disappoint. She's a beast of a friend........MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>OK, I will man up. I've never been a huge fan of guns and I really don't know much about them. I do respect them however. I want to buy a gun for home defense . I don't actually keep PM's at home but I want to make this thread compliant. Suggestions? Point and click and deadly would be fine by me. Cost is not important to me. I will take the necessary firearms lessons as well. TIA. MJ >>
I didn't read the other posts, but this is my strong suggestion based on your information.
Start with a .38 caliber handgun, "double action" revolver with a 2 inch barrel, and use hollow point bullets. Buy a new one, do not buy a used one.
If an intruder comes into your home, you are gonna be scared as yell but just breathe easy, and control it and grab the gun. With an automatic handgun, there's too much "thinking" involved - do not buy an automatic because you are a newbie. With the gun mentioned, if you need to defend yourself against an armed threat, you just point and pull the trigger, and I promise you, even if the intruder is high on drugs, he won't feel very good after that hollow point bullet does its job, and he won't be going very far.
Note the above comment is a general synopsis, there are legal issues that you need to read about, and I would recommend a training course on that and training on the handgun...and practice, practice, practice. Have a strategy for a possible intruder as far as what you will do if the situation occurs. You don't want to be "analyzing" too much in that situation, you need to be reacting.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, back to basics, what pistol did Clarence have in his belt in the shoot-out scene?? >>
S/W 357 >>
He laid it on the bathroom counter in front of the camera right before the gun battle.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
It's not often you can fit Christian Slater, Dennis Hopper, Val Kilmer, Samuel Jackson, Christopher Walken, Brad Pitt, Gary Oldman, Bronson Pinchot, James Gandofino, Chris Penn, Tom Sizemore and Patricia Arquette of course in one movie and it basically goes unnoticed. Huge cult classic written by Quentin Taranito.
I was blown away by the Alabama Whitman character. She embodied all the characteristics I treasure in people with maintaining loyalty in the face of adversity being numbero uno. I wanted the same in a dog. My puppy selection was a multi state nine month search and when I found her I knew from jump street that she was the one. She tested off the charts. The name "Alabama" came instantly. Bull mastiffs are notoriously loyal and my Alabama did not disappoint. She's a beast of a friend........MJ >>
What a fantastic journey you experienced to find "a beast of a friend" MJ!
I am betting those same qualities exist in spades with you which leads me to believe she landed in the best home available.
Honor is the most important of many personality charactersitics I admire. It can rarely be tested without great internal strife.
Miles
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
That's not a win in my book.
I've taken quite a few handgun and rifle classes at USSA here with train law enforcement as well as our military. Handguns need quite a bit of practice to be any good. You might get one good shot before all he77 breaks loose and everyone is running or diving for cover. That's why trained LEO's don't even have a 50% hit rate as well as they must pursue the BG. Good news we don't, all we have to do if defended a position.
Best home defense for the novice:
1. Shotgun 12 ga #1 buck to 00 buck. Ends a fight quick and takes much less practice which can be done shooting skeet, trap, or sporting clays. Mossburg(low cost), Remington pumps are fairly cheap and go bang every time. I keep a Maverick 88 by my bed. They're under $200 at a sporting goods store. You'd want the 20 inch or less barrel
for home defense.
Handguns
Take your pick go to an indoor range and try several models: Glock, Colt, HK, Springfield, Sig....and the list goes on. Stay away from the .380's I have a little Keltec P3AT I carry for a backup gun. It's a 7 foot gun so you better be able to defend yourself using such a under power round. Look at the 38 special or 9mm up. Shoot the biggest round you can all handgun rounds are under power. Here's some I like and why.
1. S&W 442 38 special - a revolver with a decent round with proven stopping power. Very small and will fit in your pocket, big hands aren't a plus here but the .380 are worse and recoil more than any gun I list. I don't carry the Keltec much anymore since my S&W j frame. The problem with the little .380's are they aren't target guns and you won't want to shoot more than a mag or two. You need the practice.
2. Glock 19 - They go bang every time, easy to clean, cheap to fix. The best rounds would be Federal HST's, Win Rangers, or Speer Gold dots to name a few. The advantage of this gun as well as the one above is they are guns you can shoot and practice at the range. The 9mm's cost about $10 a box of 50 while a box of 38 specials are around $34 per 100 at Wally world. An additional advantage with this gun is you can purchase a complete Advantage Arms (AA) slide that will convert this gun to a .22 LR to practice at the range with. A box of Remington are about 15 bucks per 550.
I carry a 19 all the time. I'm a CCW holder. They are a little fat for IWB for me but I just have to cant the gun. A home gun this is a good all round gun but you could go with a Glock 17 which is a full size gun. I have both and prefer the 19 since I seems to shoot them about the same. The 9mm's and 38's are good for the beginner and your wife of teens won't have an issue with them either.
As long as it a 9mm up guns like the Sig 226 or 228, HK's, S&W or about any high quality firearms manufacture are fine but expect to pay more.
3. Colt, Kimber, Springfield .45 - The .45 is one of the best close quarter rounds and are time proven stopping power. So if your urban don't over look these. Recoil is fairly mild since it pushes back and doesn't exhibit the muzzle flip of a .40 the other popular round. Now if you lived on a ranch I'd rather have a .357 mag since it's a flat shooting round and is the best all round round in the pistol cartridges.
Rifle:
AR15 or Mini 14 in .223. You can defend great with one of these little guns but if your Urban it's not what you want. Country with few neighbors is fine.
If your thinking civil unrest then a rifle or shotgun is what you need. A handgun is worthless at longer ranges.
Hope that helps, just my .02 cents.
If you ever get a change to take a close quarter class do so. you will find out how easy closing 12ft on a person is and why gun retention is a must while engaging in hand to hand combat. A real moving person is never going to be like shooting still targets. Find a range with moving targets is a plus with any handgun or weapons in general (shotgun/rifle).
If you get a shotgun and take some of the advice of using bird shot (7 1/2, 8, 6 for that matter). That is what you use at the range. These rounds don't kill small game very far and you'll find no real expert that would suggest you use a round as this. It cause shallow wounds that cause a lot of bleeding but the BG won't bleed out fast enough that you won't be in hand-to-hand. If I were using a round as this I'd shoot for the head/eyes and have a full choke to extend the range. I've hunted ducks, dove, geese, quail all my life and I sure wouldn't trust a round for a very small game to disable a human. Hey but you can exploit the wound in a fight to extend the "life and death" excitement if you prefer
One other point I might mention. We have home invasions here with 2 to 4 people. In this case a shotgun or semi-auto is a must. The revolver just doesn't have enough rounds for that many opponents (5 to 6 most) but after the first shot or two everyone will be trying to flee anyway in my opinion. The better revolver for strictly home defense would be a large N frame weapon like the S&W 627. It holds 8 rounds (.357 mag; which can shoot 38 special for practice) and the cylinder can be cut for moon clips (a mag for revolvers, I like them better than the speed loaders). S&W also makes a night guard series which has night sights but the 627 has the ability to replace the sights with night sights.
I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems.
I'll keep this one next to the bed at night.
<< <i>Took my new .22 magnum pistol (Kel-Tec PMR-30) to the firing range yesterday and blew off a couple of hundred rounds.
I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems.
I'll keep this one next to the bed at night. >>
I hope you can engage the BG at 25 yards then. Really these light sub sonic rounds bounce off bones and exit or you can pray it hits bone and bouncing around inside of someone. The first question you should ask yourself would a LEO carry a particular round/gun for his primary? If not that's not a round you want. As backup it's fine but this isn't a primary round.
.380 > .22 mag > .22 LR > .25 auto
None of these rounds perform disabling an attack in a single shot or has much of a chance unless your real lucky. The BG isn't going to be standing still with his chest exposed to do a COM shot as a target. You can close a 12 ft distance in 1 shot and your most likely going to be shooting though someones arm on a closing move. Buy less guns get more training is my advice. A combat handgun course (CLEET certified) is a plus and then you move to the real life stuff in latter courses like close quarters combat.
No doubt you might be able to hold a defensive position and chase someone off but this round isn't a man stopper and I wouldn't want to have to fend off multiple home invasion opponents with a gun like this. That said it's not bad to have a gun like this in an obscure place but it shouldn't be your "go to gun" IMO.
The other issue is a .22 mag ammo isn't reliable for defense as no rim fire is. The round is expensive and you could shoot a 9mm about as cheap which is about the minimum round you'd want with very little recoil.
A beginner should at least take a basic pistol course. Learning how to hold, draw, and reloading is a must. If you hold a gun wrong you'll never be as accurate as well as you won't be able to control the gun for follow up shots very well.
Good Luck
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Took my new .22 magnum pistol (Kel-Tec PMR-30) to the firing range yesterday and blew off a couple of hundred rounds.
I like that I was able to group my shots fairly well, even when rapid firing. No jams or other problems.
I'll keep this one next to the bed at night. >>
I hope you can engage the BG at 25 yards then. Really these light sub sonic rounds bounce off bones and exit or you can pray it hits bone and bouncing around inside of someone. The first question you should ask yourself would a LEO carry a particular round/gun for his primary? If not that's not a round you want. As backup it's fine but this isn't a primary round.
.380 > .22 mag > .22 LR > .25 auto
None of these rounds perform disabling an attack in a single shot or has much of a chance unless your real lucky. The BG isn't going to be standing still with his chest exposed to do a COM shot as a target. You can close a 12 ft distance in 1 shot and your most likely going to be shooting though someones arm on a closing move. Buy less guns get more training is my advice. A combat handgun course (CLEET certified) is a plus and then you move to the real life stuff in latter courses like close quarters combat.
No doubt you might be able to hold a defensive position and chase someone off but this round isn't a man stopper and I wouldn't want to have to fend off multiple home invasion opponents with a gun like this. That said it's not bad to have a gun like this in an obscure place but it shouldn't be your "go to gun" IMO.
The other issue is a .22 mag ammo isn't reliable for defense as no rim fire is. The round is expensive and you could shoot a 9mm about as cheap which is about the minimum round you'd want with very little recoil.
A beginner should at least take a basic pistol course. Learning how to hold, draw, and reloading is a must. If you hold a gun wrong you'll never be as accurate as well as you won't be able to control the gun for follow up shots very well.
Good Luck >>
In the unlikely event of a home invasion, my "go to" weapon of choice is my 12 ga. shotgun
The pistol is a backup but it does hold 30 rounds of ammo - more than enough to stop any evil-doer.
I also have a 9MM Luger but that thing jams up frequently.
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed.
Some here recommend a shotgun and that's their prerogative...but the problem is in a "panic" situation like this, and your heart is beating rapidly and the adrenaline is flowing like crazy, the house will likely be dark, and then you're trying to maneuver a shotgun - what could happen is you could bang it or jam it against a wall or rail or something because of its length, and those critical seconds you lose could be deadly. Remember the intruder may not be standing still.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but what if you have a wife and kids, and they need to use the weapon? Handling and using a .38 is much, much easier for them than a shotgun.
I own firearms which include a 12 gauge shotgun and a S&W .357 model 686. If an intruder/s comes into my house, and there is an armed threat from them...I'm know I'm grabbing my .357
Note that a "strategy" against intruders if you do also get a shotgun, they are usually not novices to crime and guns, just simply "c0ching" a shotgun, they should know and understand that sound, the sound alone may scare them away. But again, you can practice and get training on all of this and decide what is best for you and your family.
Also...you don't have to buy a gun to practice firing one. Most firing ranges will lend you a gun for 5 or 10 bucks for use on the range when you buy the bullets there. They usually have a number of guns there to lend, including a .38 and a .357, so you can try using them both before making a decision.
Good luck, and remember, luck favors the prepared...so, get lots of practice!
<< <i>
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto.
there pretty basic and proven, as for a shotgun, again, I'm old school
and have a surplus CHP 12 gauge 870 riot pump, again basic and proven.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
You guys can stick with your handguns and when you miss and that round goes thru the walls you better pray your wife or kids arent in the other room.
I've killed deer with #6 birdshot that i've found injured after being hit by cars. If at 10-15ft that will kill a deer than I am certain a human will not fair very well. And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot. The energy in a .38 round is about 300 ft lbs, in a load of #2 turkey shot about 1800 ft lbs. If Alexander Hamilton had a 12 ga shotgun and Aaron Burr a Glock 9mm, I am highly confident the outcome would have been very different.
Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose.
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
If there are more, then they better be prepared to deal with one crazy MF. To protect my family I'll rip off my own arm and beat you with it.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Robbers are chicken chits. They are not looking for a confrontation, just money.
They've already cased their prey when they go into your house. Or confront you in your vehicle after you leave the bank. Or follow you after a coin show. And it's frequently a team that's involved.
If they know you keep concentrated or pawnable wealth at home or in your vehicle that is easy to rob, you are behind the curve. In many cases, if you get robbed---you'll get robbed again down the road.
Remember, robbers and thieves are lazy people. The harder you make them work...the more likelyhood that they move to an easier target.
Here's a few of my favorites. Feel free to join lots of discussion and nice folks that are shooter. Lot's of LEO's too as well a military.
Anyone here should read at least one of these post from Mr. Brown and read the first page he goes more in depth. He's a TPD SWAT officer as well as an MMA guy. He's been in the line of fire and here's what he knows you need to consider.
The Criminal Paradigm
Is Your Gun a Weapon or a Talisman?
On the Necessity of Resistance
5 Clues that Training is Not Realistic
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why buy a 2 shot double barrel when you can buy a pump for less and get 3 or more extra shots plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing?
Cuz I can load 2 rounds faster than 5, but I only need 1. I can also get off both shots faster with a double barrel than a pump.
I would also use #2 or 4 shot rather than 7 1/2. >>
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
I wouldn't want to bet my life on a 3 inch high brass duck round. Best case with a shotgun is your in your chair and have it when the break the door down. The most likely case is your sound asleep and they bust the door down spreading though the house taking everyone by surprise. If a BG can flee they usually will, they're after sheep.
Make no mistake a shotgun with a magnum round is going to shoot a flame 3 feet and it will disorient and blind everyone no to mention the sound without hearing protection. No matter the weapon it depends on what is most likely to occur. The double with a semi auto/revolver on the person is great but 2 shots while you have who knows how many strung though out the house with a duck round just doesn't make sense to me.
My pistols I usually by "low flash" bonded bullets. In the .357 low flash/lower recoil like the Buffalo Bore ammo. It's your house; plan what you have and have the advantage of saving you and your family. I really never want to have to kill someone but if it's me or them then I'd prefer it to be them. They can bring a .22 or a .380 belly gun and I'll use mine. One reason I like the larger calibers is a shot has a good chance of stopping a person, rather they die or not is not what I'm after but saving my life is. After the first shot and the flee I call 911 watch and report. Not my job to chase.
Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
You guys can stick with your handguns and when you miss and that round goes thru the walls you better pray your wife or kids arent in the other room.
I've killed deer with #6 birdshot that i've found injured after being hit by cars. If at 10-15ft that will kill a deer than I am certain a human will not fair very well. And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot. The energy in a .38 round is about 300 ft lbs, in a load of #2 turkey shot about 1800 ft lbs. If Alexander Hamilton had a 12 ga shotgun and Aaron Burr a Glock 9mm, I am highly confident the outcome would have been very different.
Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose.
Whats the home invaders doing while you reload i wonder ? They rarely arrive alone or unarmed. >>
If there are more, then they better be prepared to deal with one crazy MF. To protect my family I'll rip off my own arm and beat you with it. >>
<<< And personally, I'd rather take a .38 round to the gut than a blast of #2 shot >>>
Of course, but I'd rather hit something with something, than not hit anything with something. Try walking down steps holding a shotgun to try to fire it or maneuver with it in your house, even under the best of conditions, it's not easy...and then asking a newbie, or his wife or kid to try to do it under stressful conditions? Sorry not for me.
Outdoors, yes, a shotgun is much better, try hunting squirrels and rabbits with a .38 (LOL)...but indoors, I'm taking my .357 along for the ride.
<<< Chances are, that even if you have a 15 round clip and there are 4 badguys in your house, you're gonna lose. >>>
Not necessarily. The key is to focus on the one closest to you and concentrate on him only...if the firing begins, take out the one, and the chances are very good the other ones will flee. If they don't flee, then focus on the next one closest.
It's rare, even in a firefight outdoors, unless it's two gangs fighting or something like that, that more than a few rounds are fired. Six rounds in a revolver should be plenty, even for 4 intruders. If ya feel the need for more rounds, than buy two revolvers and have one ready in your belt or holster,
Those are my viewpoints - all the other comments are interesting as well. The newbie should go to the range, check out the various guns, bring the wife and kids to the range as well...then a more informed choice can be made as to what is best.
Whatever the newbie decides to do, doing something is infinitely better than doing nothing. Those folks who make the decision not to have firearms in their homes, it's their decision...but in my view if the discussed situation arises, I intend to have the intruders at my mercy, not the other way around.
AA-12
As for home defense I have a Weatherby 5 shot home defense 12 guage pump shotgun loaded with 5 shot, my backup is a Taurus Judge .410 pistol loaded with 4 shot.
I have many other guns but nobody in their right mind is gonna use an AR-15 for home defense.
Remington 870 Express, Glock 23 and an Arsenal SGL-21 AK 47.
Next is a shorter barrel for the 870 and night sights for the Glock.
How do I get to Carnegie Hall?
Practice. Practice. Practice.
(No don't ask me to find the report, I'm not going to spend hours on the internet looking for out dated FBI report.)
Cohodk has a good point about bullets go thru walls. I use Glaser safety rounds ......... the first 4 rounds are safety bullets... then you get real hollow points!
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>Where can I get one of these & how much $$?
AA-12
That thing could have taken out a Nazi platoon. LOL
I keep this Serbu in my night stand, it is a registered AOW (Any Other Weapon $5 federal tax stamp), I used it for EOD door breaching in Iraq and Afg. and fell in love with it, nice and handy. 2 in the tube and one in the chamber.
<< <i>I have a S&W .380 bodyguard I Keep in my car and a S&W .38 bodyguard I keep in my truck, both guns have built in factory lazor sites and i got them for a great price on sale. One thing I do need to do with both guns is put in a trigger with a softer pull but I am used to the heavier hammer action. I also bring my Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum when I go on trips so I can leave it in the vehicle and carry my bodyguards on me.
As for home defense I have a Weatherby 5 shot home defense 12 guage pump shotgun loaded with 5 shot, my backup is a Taurus Judge .410 pistol loaded with 4 shot.
I have many other guns but nobody in their right mind is gonna use an AR-15 for home defense. >>
i use the rugar p101 .357 as well. its a nice weapon to carry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting thead......
BTW do yourself a favor if you don't shoot guns. If you get a .357 get the stainless steel gun. You wife won't like the heft until they shoot a round or two. The 442 above is a very light gun used for ccw conceal. A SS house gun would recoil very little with a 38 spl round and a 38 sp +p would recoil like the light 442 shooting a .38 spl.
If you get a stubby (gun barrel under 3 inches) look into the vendor "short barrel" rounds. The difference in the regular rounds and short barrel is the powder. A stubby to get to max velocity should have a very fine fast burning powder. Longer barrels can use a more course powder building up velocity with the longer barrel. A course powder in a short barrel gun is going to be "dirty" (unburnt power) and can cause issues right there, esp in an auto. >>
Cool , being from the UK im not up on all the terms but i was gifted a nice pump action shotgun and the shells are "slugs" and when you said magnum it rang a bell , that's what it is we have here. Theres that and a few handguns , all revolvers and youve cleared something up for me too there , for an old .38 i have i was told id need a certain cartridge with certain powder , i was told this on the S&W forum , youve explained what it is much more clearly , i was able to get the shells in boxes of 50 so that was cool too , happy as larry now i know what it is , thanks
Use the advice that you find applicable to your personal situation and enjoy the result.
<< <i>BTW, I meant to include this website just as a point of reference regarding the law. There may well be many that are worth having reference to, this is one.
Handgun laws in the US >>
out of date
DC's handgun ban was challenged and deemed unconstitutional.
one can now get a DC hangun permit. And I'm willing to bet the ruling was used to overturn the laws in the remaining areas, as well.
for the most part, a shotgun is not as much fun to practice with.
<< <i>Robbers are chicken chits. They are not looking for a confrontation, just money.
Remember, robbers and thieves are lazy people. The harder you make them work...the more likelyhood that they move to an easier target. >>
<< <i> plus that ultra terrifying shotgun rack (pumping), that sound will deter just as much as seeing the dang thing? >>
i personally know of 2 instances where the noise was a sufficient deterent; both times the robber(s) fled the residence immedaitely upon hearing the shell loading.
no shots fired.
in 1 of those, the armed robber was caught the following night 2 blocks away.
Again...you want the intruder to be at your mercy...do you really want to be at his mercy?
This gun is a 1985 .22 H&R Sidekick, 9-shot, double action which I've had for a long time. It has a 6 inch barrel, and I like it because it seems to be accurate and is fun to shoot.
This is the 20 gauge Remington 1100, with a 20 inch barrel that I bought for home protection. I bought the smaller gauge because I'm not a big guy and I'm sure to keep getting older. Even though it's only a 20 gauge, this is the one I mentioned that I'd hate to be in front of when it goes off. It's got a 4-shell magazine (2 3/4 inch shells) and you can pre-load the chamber for a 5th. I figure that a warning shot is probably better than scaring them off just with the noise that chambering a shell makes.
This gun is my fiancee's Dan Wesson .357 Magnum. Double action, 6" barrel and a very nice shot because it is accurate and smooth to shoot. It's the ability to actually hit something that makes shooting fun.
I knew it would happen.
I go to coin shows to buy and sell and have been considering taking the concealed carry course. A local guy charges $125 for a private one to one course. Then it's another 370 bucks I guess for the permits.
I went for 30 years with no guns and just in the last 4 months have had these 3 given to me. So now I have some questions.
I have serious questions regarding actually shooting a crook and the legal hot water I would be in. I know nothing about what my rights are in a car robbery if I am in the car and a crook forces his way in. The home invasion was once discussed with a 91 yr. old man [beekeeper] who ran a honey business out of his home. He said a cop friend told him that if he shoots a robber make sure you kill him. And if you shoot a robber running away out in your yard with your cash, drag him back in your house before calling the cops.
First off thank you for the participation in this thread. I spent 8 hours with a NRA instructor today and applied for my CPL permit after the session. I LOVED the range and surprised myself as I slaughtered all of the 8 1/2 X11 intruders rather easily
<read an FBI report several years ago that said the average gun fight is: 2 bullets, in 2 seconds, at 2 meters.>
In the NRA material it stated the average gun fight was 3 bullets, in 3 seconds at 3 yards FWIW.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
–John Adams, 1826
Are you a southpaw?
Miles
<< <i>Congrats MJ and welcome to the journey!
Are you a southpaw?
Miles >>
I do most sports left handed but throw with my right. My right eye is my dominate one so I'm a righty shooter. However, he did force me to shoot a lot with my left hand (one handed) from different angles. All were hits in the circles . I got a dayum from my exTexas instructor
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
See, shooting is a lot of fun and leaving a few frn's with a good instructor is like taking golf lessons; it's more rewarding when you know what you're doing and range time is pretty inexpensive entertainment...a lot less than green fees. Welcome to the club.
I knew it would happen.
But I don't recommend them (or a 1911) unless someone has been around single action semi's a long time and is used to them. For a handgun my choice would be a Springfield XD full size in 9mm. I keep this one (now with a Laser and light) in my wifes bedside table. It's simple, reasonably accurate, moderate recoil, and has a point and click interface. It also has a grip safety, unlike the Glocks which I do not recommend. You have to fully grip the pistol and pull the trigger to get it to go bang, no hanging the trigger up on clothes when you reholster and shooting yourself in the leg.
Rifles, probably not, although I keep both an AR15 in .223 and an AR15 with a 5.7 upper ready to go they are really for the zombie invasions. Shotguns are fine if you are hunkered down in a space with plenty of room to handle it, I have a Mossberg 500 with an 8 round extended magazine, 18" barrel with heay shield and all the gadgets, but it's not what I grab first.
Another good standby is a revolver, something like this in .357 mag, or the new Taurus in .410/.45 Colt would also do a good job.
I am also a firm believer in lasers and lights, gun fights aren't supposed to be fair so get every advantage you can. I've been a serious shooter for over 50 years, starting with junior NRA rimfire competition, bullseye pistol competitions when I was with Beachjumper 2 in the Navy, and I still shoot IDPA and 3 gun events on a regular basis. Lasers and lights give you an advantage, regardless of what the "real men" who only shoot iron sights will tell you.
I've got lots of choices, but I choose a semi auto pistol, if need be I can use it to fight my way to a real gun.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection