I can see it coming - the P puck market is going to get subdivided into smaller niche markets based on finish appearance appraisal by a grader. Just like the bullion pucks got subdivided from MS into MS, DM + PL. >>
One of my Yellowstones had a finish to die for - have never seen anything like it before or since. For want of a better word, it was extremely "sparkley" as though made of glitter or something. Unfortunately I returned it due to a few "pinholes". At the time I was all caught up in the search for a "perfect 70" and didn't really think about the finish until after I mailed it. It was a beautiful coin and the pinholes were barely noticeable. Sometimes it's important to keep an open mind with these things.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
<< <i>Just as an aside, when I was checking my Grand Canyon (well v-b'd) I noticed how strikingly different the v-b'd coin looks compared to the shiny bullion issue. Look at the picture above. See how the boulders in the foreground jump out at you? Now look at a regular coin. The same effect can be seen in other areas.
I did check and there is no difference in the die details between the bullion strike and the v-b'd strike, as there is between the five-ounce coins and the circulating quarters, but I thought that the visual difference was worth mentioning.
TD >>
Yeah, I noticed the 3-D GC effect on the P puck too. Quite a bit of relief between the details and field.
I think I'm submitting my GC P puck for a variety; ESB-D3DI - Exceptional Strong Blast With Deep 3-D Image.
Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy
<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy >>
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected.
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<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy >>
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected. >>
No mention of how many and it looks like our OP Aaron was the first to contact and there using his pictures I think. Did find a quote from white from the mint that I found funny....the finish is applied to the coin after striking, and not to the die. This will provide a consistant coin to coin finish... (Guess thats if they keep the reservoir filled) Hopefully some more will be reported in this next week.........Enjoy
<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy >>
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected. >>
No mention of how many and it looks like our OP Aaron was the first to contact and there using his pictures I think. Did find a quote from white from the mint that I found funny....the finish is applied to the coin after striking, and not to the die. This will provide a consistant coin to coin finish... (Guess thats if they keep the reservoir filled) Hopefully some more will be reported in this next week.........Enjoy >>
Seems like spraying afterward is counter to consistency--as opposed to the die--but what do I know. Let's hope some more are found.
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_________ Grand Canyon coins lack post-strike finish
Several collectors receive apparent error coins
By Paul Gilkes-Coin World Staff | July 19, 2011 10:00 a.m.
Images show an example of the Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coin missing the post-strike finish, top, and one with the post-strike finish, bottom. Several collectors have reported the coins.
Images courtesy of Aaron J. Gelner.
An uncertain number of Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coins missing the post-strike finish were shipped by the U.S. Mint to customers who ordered the numismatic coins.
U.S. Mint officials were unaware that Mint had released coins missing the post-strike finish when contacted July 13 by Coin World.
Minnesota collector Aaron J. Gelner reported to Coin World on July 12 that his local barber, Tom Schneider, had received two of the Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coins that day, one with the post-strike finish and one without. Images of the two coins taken by Gelner are illustrated with this article.
Connecticut collector Jim Scroggins on July 13 also reported to Coin World his receipt of an Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coin missing the post-strike finish.
Unlike the bullion versions of the 5-ounce coins struck at the Philadelphia Mint but intentionally without Mint mark, the numismatic versions are produced with a P Mint mark on the reverse. The Mint-marked numismatic versions also are supposed to receive a post-strike finish.
The same ready-to-strike 5-ounce planchets received from supplier Sunshine Minting from Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, for the bullion versions are also used for the Uncirculated numismatic versions. However, the numismatic coins undergo a “vapor blasting” technique after striking, resulting in a finish replicating that used on 3-inch bronze Mint medals, according to U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White.
“The machine uses a water vapor and ceramic media mix,” according to White. “It is similar to sand blasting, but instead of using dry compressed air [propelled at high speed], it uses a compressed wet vapor. The finish is applied to the coin after striking and not to the die. This will provide a consistent coin-to-coin finish.”
Before striking, the ready-to-strike planchets exhibit prooflike surfaces.
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Yes, they do. I submitted a little over 100 coins to NGC so far and got back a total of 6 designated as light finish. I submitted exactly 100 to PCGS and none were designated out of the ordinary, however they are aware of the partial finishes and may just be trying to figure out what if anything to do about it.
John
John Maben
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Interesting....all of the NGC "light finish" releases I'm seeing on ebay as part of MCM's sale do have apparent blasting. I wonder how NGC would handle the coin Devious has, which appears to have considerably less than those pieces---at least from the pics I've seen.
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Yes, the light finish one is not the no finish piece in Tom's possession. His piece has absolutely NO finish at all! Nada, zero, zilch. In fact, I find it odd that they would even designate 'light finish' a variety.
Yes, they do. I submitted a little over 100 coins to NGC so far and got back a total of 6 designated as light finish. I submitted exactly 100 to PCGS and none were designated out of the ordinary, however they are aware of the partial finishes and may just be trying to figure out what if anything to do about it.
John >>
MCM is 6/100 NGC graded = light finish. Segoja reported in another thread of 8 brilliant, 5 partial matte out of 50 (ungraded).
Thanks for the reports! Looks like there is a slim but very possible chance of landing one of these.
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While watching the Mint TV production video some thing caught my eye. The Hot Spring's which this guy is holding in his had is a "P" and has proof like finish. Its very visible in the video as they show this coin as the bullion version but has a "P" mint mark.
Segoya -- I didn't see your other thread comment -- what do you mean by 6 "brilliant" finish strikes? Are you saying both sides are highly reflective like the bullion strikes?
Are any truly PL?
How about some pics?
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<< <i>While watching the Mint TV production video some thing caught my eye. The Hot Spring's which this guy is holding in his had is a "P" and has proof like finish. Its very visible in the video as they show this coin as the bullion version but has a "P" mint mark.
Nice catch. What if someone "forgot" to run a few through the machine. Maybe people should re-check all their pucks.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
<< <i>Interesting....all of the NGC "light finish" releases I'm seeing on ebay as part of MCM's sale do have apparent blasting. I wonder how NGC would handle the coin Devious has, which appears to have considerably less than those pieces---at least from the pics I've seen. >>
My understanding is that if they saw a piece they believed was lacking the finish completely, they would call it "unfinished" instead of "light finish".
So is the light finish/no finish a variety? Or is it just a bad puck? I guess my question is whether these production inconsistencies will be viewed as rare or junk?
<< <i>So is the light finish/no finish a variety? Or is it just a bad puck? I guess my question is whether these production inconsistencies will be viewed as rare or junk? >>
The no finish varieties have hairlines on the obverse, at least this has been confirmed by myself and one other fellow on the forum. That's why I've held out on sending in the no-finish puck pictured. I believe all of the no-finish pucks will have the same type of hairlines traveling across the puck. The one pictured in the OP, the hairlines travel NW->SE. The other forumite who reported said his are from N->S. So I am making a guess that all of the no-finish pucks have these hairlines across the entire obverse of the puck. Junk? Probably so when submitted to the TPGs. Until there's a word on whether or not they'll grade the no-finish pucks due to their hairlines or 'mint wiping' (it looks mechanical, not back and forth rub, but straight across) I informed Tom to hold out. Coin World omitted this bit of information in their article.
Oh, and the reverse does not have these hairlines. Also confirmed by the another recipient of the no-finish variety.
Kicking off at $999 for sp67 -- possible highest grade due to finish issues.
Let the games begin.
(not affiliated with seller)
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Two out of 3 mine GCs look to me missing VB finish to some degree, they were all ordered in first 10 minutes when they went on sale (order numbers 377969XX, 377968XX and 377965XX). One of them were the pictures you posted for me - many thanks!
I decided to gamble with 130 bucks and submitted two of them to PCGS to see what comes back, if they come back as MS62 it will be another hundred $ wasted on the puck addiction and the reason to stop wasting money on them - we shall see
Just decided to take some slightly better shots of my potential "light finish", "lack of VB", or just plain old "different degree of normal process" puck. You will be able to tell which is which. Just wanted to verify that on the light finish puck there is a very consistent pattern running from N to S (mentioned this before) and you can get a feel for it if look at one of the previous pictures posted of a close up of Washington's cheek. This pattern of "hairlines" runs almost the length of the coin on both the flat areas and the details. I think the giveaway here is the amount of reflection in the coin - my camera lens.
Jeff
P.S. Good thing I didn't send it back - still lousy quality but I guess a full VB would have covered up imperfections.
Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney.
Everyone responsible, please come forward and take a bow for a job poorly done.
<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney. >>
I have not decided yet, but I may agree with you - depends on how much I can sell this for
As far as I know, PCGS isn't grading these light finishes as a variety yet. John Maben from Modern Coin Mart reported earlier that of the 100 coins he submitted to PCGS yielded no special varieties, while 6/100+ submitted to NGC came back as light finish.
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<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney.
Everyone responsible, please come forward and take a bow for a job poorly done. >>
Yet another creative way to score another $10 with the Variety Plus requirement. Its about the money.
<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney. >>
I have not decided yet, but I may agree with you - depends on how much I can sell this for
Jeff >>
I doubt very much anyone here told them to grade those light finish, I did send a pm to john of mcm last week and asked if he had noticed these, he replied no they were all sent off for grading. So this tells me that ngc looked at those and noticed (not that hard to see ) and decided on the light finish. Now it remains to be seen if our host will also follow these, and even if they do john said they got 6 out of 100 that tells me there are not many of these out there. Would love to hear what those 6 graded? Were they all just light finish and none of them were completly naked of the finish? I also think I would rather have a sp70 than a sp67 light finish. But it was a cool discovery and it has some merit to it..........Enjoy
Look, the light finish thing, I disagree with. Those that missed the vapor blasting phase ALTOGETHER are IN FACT mint errors. Even if they ran completely dry, there isn't even a light blast, and that can be said on the original puck I posted about.
The light finish is a new thing to me. I've seen some of the photos and I think of them like the regular 'heavily' blasted pucks. I really don't know who you are jumping on, epcjimi1, but if its me, jump on me all you want. There isn't a fracture. The puck in the original post does NOT have any blast and in fact, if it did, I think the present hairlines would have been 'blasted off' with it.
So, again, I agree the light finish vs. the full finish is nothing newsworthy. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
And if you hate me for posting this thread originally, feel free. My feelings are not hurt.
<< <i> I doubt very much anyone here told them to grade those light finish, I did send a pm to john of mcm last week and asked if he had noticed these, he replied no they were all sent off for grading. So this tells me that ngc looked at those and noticed (not that hard to see ) and decided on the light finish. >>
Uuuhhhmmm.........................
MCM + NGC are in the same town. Sarasota FL.
How else do you think MCM cranks out those instant NGC slabs on their website for the pucks?
I think MCM and NGC know each other pretty well.
If MCM wants a grade / designation out of NGC for some of their submissions - they gets them by hook or by crook.
<< <i>. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL! >>
Devious, I agree with you 100%. The true "errors" in my book are the coins lacking any vapor-blasting. >>
+1 >>
My public apologies for being so harsh. I wasn't sure what you were aiming for. I didn't quite get where you were going. Your +1 makes sense now. And I think you and I are on the same page...
<< <i>Look, the light finish thing, I disagree with. Those that missed the vapor blasting phase ALTOGETHER are IN FACT mint errors. Even if they ran completely dry, there isn't even a light blast, and that can be said on the original puck I posted about.
The light finish is a new thing to me. I've seen some of the photos and I think of them like the regular 'heavily' blasted pucks. I really don't know who you are jumping on, epcjimi1, but if its me, jump on me all you want. There isn't a fracture. The puck in the original post does NOT have any blast and in fact, if it did, I think the present hairlines would have been 'blasted off' with it.
So, again, I agree the light finish vs. the full finish is nothing newsworthy. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
And if you hate me for posting this thread originally, feel free. My feelings are not hurt. >>
Devious - I think a P puck without VB is significant. Submit that puppy! What bugs me is all the band wagoners - 'My puck has a lighter finish". Good Lord, ya got MCM + NGC in the act now with a light finish designation and MCM trying to sell them @ $999. Crazy.
As these iffy "niches" are added to make a new market, it diminishes the values of other pucks held, let alone those that have already had their coins graded; re-submission is the only way to go. That stinks right there.
If anyone tries to tell me that a more elusive, spectacular puck doesn't impact the value of the regular run of the mill issue, I say baloney. Creating an upper value tier makes the lower tier suffer. Period. Seen it before and its true now.
1) John Maben did not ask NGC to designate "light finish". I did have a conversation with someone there advising them of what was being discussed here on these forums and that I had observed a coin or two just in glancing over the NP4 that were clearly not matted. They ran with it, and as far as I am concerned that is to their credit.
2) I put the light finish coins on eBay in an attempt to establish value. I gave it my best guess with the BIN prices. As much as I respect others opinions, I'm kind of surprised and maybe even a bit unhappy that anyone would say $999 was a "crazy" price for the highest graded light finish coins we got back out of the many submitted.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
1) John Maben did not ask NGC to designate "light finish". I did have a conversation with someone there advising them of what was being discussed here on these forums and that I had observed a coin or two just in glancing over the NP4 that were clearly not matted. They ran with it, and as far as I am concerned that is to their credit.
2) I put the light finish coins on eBay in an attempt to establish value. I gave it my best guess with the BIN prices. As much as I respect others opinions, I'm kind of surprised and maybe even a bit unhappy that anyone would say $999 was a "crazy" price for the highest graded light finish coins we got back out of the many submitted.
John >>
John, out of curiosity, on eBay, your photos show what appears to be an actual "light finish" coin. They do not appear to show any brilliance to them in the slabs. Are these actual images of coins received back from NGC? You say that they were clearly not matted, yet these photos in the lightly matted slabs appear to have an actual light finish to the coin. I don't see any resembling the photos in the original post of this thread. Can you elaborate on what I am seeing in these photos? In your listing on the BST, you also noted the hairlines I keep bringing up that nobody else seems to take notice of. It is of my opinion that these particular ones with the hairlines have in fact not been sprayed. The hairlines are only present on the obverse. The reverse has much more reflectivity to it than the obverse and may be caused by the striking IMO. Just looking to receive some input since you've already managed to get these coins holdered and you have them in hand.
There is definitely a distinct difference in the coins. I have personally viewed dozens of the NP4 Grand Canyon ATB coins, and wrote the following article which appears on the ModernCoinMart Facebook page...
Grand Canyon ATB - New Surface Variety 07/20/2011 - by C. D. Daughtrey, ModernCoinMart
It appears as though we have something new to look out for in the America The Beautiful "Vapor blast" collector's edition 5 ounce silver coins.
Some of the Grand Canyon coins escaped the mint with what we believe to be "unfinshed" surfaces.
How did these come about? The term "Vapor Blast" refers to a sand blast effect the Mint places onto struck examples of the 2010-P 5 ounce ATB coins. We believe this treatment might be placed onto the coins in multiple steps, with each step bearing a more 'pitted' surface than the last. These coins show what may be evidence that some of the examples from this issue are not receiving the "full treatment."
What does the difference look like? In the images below, the difference is quite obvious. On the normal "Vapor Blast" coin (left) the surface is completely covered in visible pits, which gives the coin an overall matte proof-like finish. On the "Light Finish" version these pits are nearly completely missing giving the coin a much more brilliant-like finish.
These two images were taken under identical lighting conditions of a normal "Vapor Blast" Grand Canyon ATB (left) and a "Vapor Blast - Light Finish" Grand Canyon ATB (right) .
So how many were minted? There is no certainty regarding the total number of normal versus "Light Finish" coins minted because the Mint does not keep track of mintage figures for varieties such as these. It is our experience, however, that approximately 5% of the coins we have seen are of the "Light Finish" variety.
Do any of the grading services recognize this variety? Yes. So far NGC is the only grading service we are aware of that will annotate this variety on holders by request. Visit their website at ngccoin.com for further details.
It will be curious to see how this plays out. The market is already pretty diluted with the 2010 bullion (still fairly new to the scene) plus the 2010-P, 2011 bullion, and now the possibility of different finishes in the 2010-P GC. My gut tells me a "light finish" might not get folks too excited, as they are already stretched thin enough as it is. A true lack of finish, however, does start to get my heart rate up and I bet it does with other folks too.
This is my personal opinion, and is by no means a rag on MCM for getting "light finish" coins. MCM is doing what they do best....getting new stuff to the market ASAP. I'm sure John has some pull over there as MCM is a big customer, but really, it's in NGC's best interest to differentiate varieties and be the first on the scene. Remember when NGC was giving PLs to the 2010 ATBs? People starting switching to them. This isn't quite the same, but we have seen shades of this in the past before.
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To add, I have seen varying levels of "frost" on these coins ranging from nearly completely missing sand blast pitting that causes the "frost" - to a very heavily pitted surface that makes the entire coin look like the "cameo" of a DCAM proof.
This isn't simply a quality control issue. The entire surface of the affected coins appears completely different under magnification (a 10X loupe), as if they were "missing" something in the process. While all details are still very nice and crisp on all the coins from this issue, the "light finish" coins show more of the original, unmolested surface...hence the naturally lower grades, because the "vapor blast" technique is actually applied to already struck coins, effectively hiding the tiny surface marks that generally affect grade.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i> ....................
I can see it coming - the P puck market is going to get subdivided into smaller niche markets based on finish appearance appraisal by a grader. Just like the bullion pucks got subdivided from MS into MS, DM + PL. >>
One of my Yellowstones had a finish to die for - have never seen anything like it before or since. For want of a
better word, it was extremely "sparkley" as though made of glitter or something. Unfortunately I returned it due
to a few "pinholes". At the time I was all caught up in the search for a "perfect 70" and didn't really think about
the finish until after I mailed it. It was a beautiful coin and the pinholes were barely noticeable.
Sometimes it's important to keep an open mind with these things.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>Just as an aside, when I was checking my Grand Canyon (well v-b'd) I noticed how strikingly different the v-b'd coin looks compared to the shiny bullion issue. Look at the picture above. See how the boulders in the foreground jump out at you? Now look at a regular coin. The same effect can be seen in other areas.
I did check and there is no difference in the die details between the bullion strike and the v-b'd strike, as there is between the five-ounce coins and the circulating quarters, but I thought that the visual difference was worth mentioning.
TD >>
Yeah, I noticed the 3-D GC effect on the P puck too. Quite a bit of relief between the details and field.
I think I'm submitting my GC P puck for a variety; ESB-D3DI - Exceptional Strong Blast With Deep 3-D Image.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected.
<< <i>
<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected. >>
No mention of how many and it looks like our OP Aaron was the first to contact and there using his pictures I think. Did find a quote from white from the mint that I found funny....the finish is applied to the coin after striking, and not to the die. This will provide a consistant coin to coin finish... (Guess thats if they keep the reservoir filled) Hopefully some more will be reported in this next week.........Enjoy
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Woohoo the article from coin world is now online, us mint officials were unaware that they had released coins missing the post strike finish when they were notified july 13 . The pictures in the article look just like the OP pictures. sweet. Minnesota and connecticut were the first ones to report these. Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. My cancel box is still up on the mint anyone still waiting for an order from the first day? wonder if there going thru the rest Enjoy
Dang, I need to subscribe I guess. Did they mention how many had been reported? Mine finally shipped from a late first-day buy. Took longer than expected. >>
No mention of how many and it looks like our OP Aaron was the first to contact and there using his pictures I think. Did find a quote from white from the mint that I found funny....the finish is applied to the coin after striking, and not to the die. This will provide a consistant coin to coin finish... (Guess thats if they keep the reservoir filled) Hopefully some more will be reported in this next week.........Enjoy
Seems like spraying afterward is counter to consistency--as opposed to the die--but what do I know. Let's hope some more are found.
<< <i> Great article except it doesn't really have a reply from the mint as to what caused these. Or as to how many might be out there. >>
Uh-oh. That final qc inspection dude with the gigantic "loop" from the Mint TV 5 OZ video is in deep doo-doo now.
<< <i>
Uh-oh. That final qc inspection dude with the gigantic "loop" from the Mint TV 5 OZ video is in deep doo-doo now.
Maybe that is how it happened. That tray of P Pucks the guy in the vid was showing us... those are the pucks !
_________
Grand Canyon coins lack post-strike finish
Several collectors receive apparent error coins
By Paul Gilkes-Coin World Staff | July 19, 2011 10:00 a.m.
Images show an example of the Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coin missing the post-strike finish, top, and one with the post-strike finish, bottom. Several collectors have reported the coins.
Images courtesy of Aaron J. Gelner.
An uncertain number of Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coins missing the post-strike finish were shipped by the U.S. Mint to customers who ordered the numismatic coins.
U.S. Mint officials were unaware that Mint had released coins missing the post-strike finish when contacted July 13 by Coin World.
Minnesota collector Aaron J. Gelner reported to Coin World on July 12 that his local barber, Tom Schneider, had received two of the Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coins that day, one with the post-strike finish and one without. Images of the two coins taken by Gelner are illustrated with this article.
Connecticut collector Jim Scroggins on July 13 also reported to Coin World his receipt of an Uncirculated 2010-P Grand Canyon National Park 5-ounce silver coin missing the post-strike finish.
Unlike the bullion versions of the 5-ounce coins struck at the Philadelphia Mint but intentionally without Mint mark, the numismatic versions are produced with a P Mint mark on the reverse. The Mint-marked numismatic versions also are supposed to receive a post-strike finish.
The same ready-to-strike 5-ounce planchets received from supplier Sunshine Minting from Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, for the bullion versions are also used for the Uncirculated numismatic versions. However, the numismatic coins undergo a “vapor blasting” technique after striking, resulting in a finish replicating that used on 3-inch bronze Mint medals, according to U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White.
“The machine uses a water vapor and ceramic media mix,” according to White. “It is similar to sand blasting, but instead of using dry compressed air [propelled at high speed], it uses a compressed wet vapor. The finish is applied to the coin after striking and not to the die. This will provide a consistent coin-to-coin finish.”
Before striking, the ready-to-strike planchets exhibit prooflike surfaces.
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http://www.coinweek.com/news/modern-coins/ngc-recognizes-new-variety-of-2010p-grand-canyon-5-ounce-specimen-issue/
<< <i>NGC recognizes the finish now.
http://www.coinweek.com/news/modern-coins/ngc-recognizes-new-variety-of-2010p-grand-canyon-5-ounce-specimen-issue/ >>
Yes, they do. I submitted a little over 100 coins to NGC so far and got back a total of 6 designated as light finish. I submitted exactly 100 to PCGS and none were designated out of the ordinary, however they are aware of the partial finishes and may just be trying to figure out what if anything to do about it.
John
John Maben
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<< <i>
<< <i>NGC recognizes the finish now.
http://www.coinweek.com/news/modern-coins/ngc-recognizes-new-variety-of-2010p-grand-canyon-5-ounce-specimen-issue/ >>
Yes, they do. I submitted a little over 100 coins to NGC so far and got back a total of 6 designated as light finish. I submitted exactly 100 to PCGS and none were designated out of the ordinary, however they are aware of the partial finishes and may just be trying to figure out what if anything to do about it.
John >>
MCM is 6/100 NGC graded = light finish.
Segoja reported in another thread of 8 brilliant, 5 partial matte out of 50 (ungraded).
Thanks for the reports! Looks like there is a slim but very possible chance of landing one of these.
<< <i>Very interesting! >>
Segoya -- I didn't see your other thread comment -- what do you mean by 6 "brilliant" finish strikes? Are you saying both sides are highly reflective like the bullion strikes?
Are any truly PL?
How about some pics?
<< <i>While watching the Mint TV production video some thing caught my eye. The Hot Spring's which this guy is holding in his had is a "P" and has proof like finish. Its very visible in the video as they show this coin as the bullion version but has a "P" mint mark.
Nice catch. What if someone "forgot" to run a few through the machine. Maybe people should re-check all their pucks.
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~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>Interesting....all of the NGC "light finish" releases I'm seeing on ebay as part of MCM's sale do have apparent blasting. I wonder how NGC would handle the coin Devious has, which appears to have considerably less than those pieces---at least from the pics I've seen. >>
My understanding is that if they saw a piece they believed was lacking the finish completely, they would call it "unfinished" instead of "light finish".
John
<< <i>So is the light finish/no finish a variety? Or is it just a bad puck? I guess my question is whether these production inconsistencies will be viewed as rare or junk? >>
The no finish varieties have hairlines on the obverse, at least this has been confirmed by myself and one other fellow on the forum. That's why I've held out on sending in the no-finish puck pictured. I believe all of the no-finish pucks will have the same type of hairlines traveling across the puck. The one pictured in the OP, the hairlines travel NW->SE. The other forumite who reported said his are from N->S. So I am making a guess that all of the no-finish pucks have these hairlines across the entire obverse of the puck. Junk? Probably so when submitted to the TPGs. Until there's a word on whether or not they'll grade the no-finish pucks due to their hairlines or 'mint wiping' (it looks mechanical, not back and forth rub, but straight across) I informed Tom to hold out. Coin World omitted this bit of information in their article.
Oh, and the reverse does not have these hairlines. Also confirmed by the another recipient of the no-finish variety.
NGC Light Finish
Kicking off at $999 for sp67 -- possible highest grade due to finish issues.
Let the games begin.
(not affiliated with seller)
Two out of 3 mine GCs look to me missing VB finish to some degree, they were all ordered in first 10 minutes when they went on sale (order numbers 377969XX, 377968XX and 377965XX). One of them were the pictures you posted for me - many thanks!
I decided to gamble with 130 bucks and submitted two of them to PCGS to see what comes back, if they come back as MS62 it will be another hundred $ wasted on the puck addiction and the reason to stop wasting money on them - we shall see
Jeff
P.S. Good thing I didn't send it back - still lousy quality but I guess a full VB would have covered up imperfections.
Everyone responsible, please come forward and take a bow for a job poorly done.
<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney. >>
I have not decided yet, but I may agree with you - depends on how much I can sell this for
Jeff
<< <i>I got this one! post a clip on youtube.
Thanks for posting! Coinmaster's light finish.
As far as I know, PCGS isn't grading these light finishes as a variety yet. John Maben from Modern Coin Mart reported earlier that of the 100 coins he submitted to PCGS yielded no special varieties, while 6/100+ submitted to NGC came back as light finish.
<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney.
Everyone responsible, please come forward and take a bow for a job poorly done. >>
Yet another creative way to score another $10 with the Variety Plus requirement. Its about the money.
<< <i>
<< <i>Fracturing the puck market into ambiguous graded niches based on a lesser degree of VB finish applied vs. a "normal" amount of VB finish is absolute utter baloney. >>
I have not decided yet, but I may agree with you - depends on how much I can sell this for
Jeff >>
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
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The light finish is a new thing to me. I've seen some of the photos and I think of them like the regular 'heavily' blasted pucks. I really don't know who you are jumping on, epcjimi1, but if its me, jump on me all you want. There isn't a fracture. The puck in the original post does NOT have any blast and in fact, if it did, I think the present hairlines would have been 'blasted off' with it.
So, again, I agree the light finish vs. the full finish is nothing newsworthy. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
And if you hate me for posting this thread originally, feel free. My feelings are not hurt.
<< <i>. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
>>
Devious, I agree with you 100%. The true "errors" in my book are the coins lacking any vapor-blasting.
<< <i>
Uuuhhhmmm.........................
MCM + NGC are in the same town. Sarasota FL.
How else do you think MCM cranks out those instant NGC slabs on their website for the pucks?
I think MCM and NGC know each other pretty well.
If MCM wants a grade / designation out of NGC for some of their submissions - they gets them by hook or by crook.
<< <i>
<< <i>. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
>>
Devious, I agree with you 100%. The true "errors" in my book are the coins lacking any vapor-blasting. >>
+1
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
>>
Devious, I agree with you 100%. The true "errors" in my book are the coins lacking any vapor-blasting. >>
+1 >>
My public apologies for being so harsh. I wasn't sure what you were aiming for. I didn't quite get where you were going. Your +1 makes sense now. And I think you and I are on the same page...
<< <i>Look, the light finish thing, I disagree with. Those that missed the vapor blasting phase ALTOGETHER are IN FACT mint errors. Even if they ran completely dry, there isn't even a light blast, and that can be said on the original puck I posted about.
The light finish is a new thing to me. I've seen some of the photos and I think of them like the regular 'heavily' blasted pucks. I really don't know who you are jumping on, epcjimi1, but if its me, jump on me all you want. There isn't a fracture. The puck in the original post does NOT have any blast and in fact, if it did, I think the present hairlines would have been 'blasted off' with it.
So, again, I agree the light finish vs. the full finish is nothing newsworthy. What is newsworthy is that some of these pucks in fact HAVE NO FINAL FINISH AT ALL!
And if you hate me for posting this thread originally, feel free. My feelings are not hurt.
Devious - I think a P puck without VB is significant. Submit that puppy!
If anyone tries to tell me that a more elusive, spectacular puck doesn't impact the value of the regular run of the mill issue, I say baloney. Creating an upper value tier makes the lower tier suffer. Period. Seen it before and its true now.
Sorry to be such a poophead.
1) John Maben did not ask NGC to designate "light finish". I did have a conversation with someone there advising them of what was being discussed here on these forums and that I had observed a coin or two just in glancing over the NP4 that were clearly not matted. They ran with it, and as far as I am concerned that is to their credit.
2) I put the light finish coins on eBay in an attempt to establish value. I gave it my best guess with the BIN prices. As much as I respect others opinions, I'm kind of surprised and maybe even a bit unhappy that anyone would say $999 was a "crazy" price for the highest graded light finish coins we got back out of the many submitted.
John
John Maben
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...The difference in the finish was noted within a thread posted on the Collectors Universe Message Boards on July 12...
link
<< <i>For the record:
1) John Maben did not ask NGC to designate "light finish". I did have a conversation with someone there advising them of what was being discussed here on these forums and that I had observed a coin or two just in glancing over the NP4 that were clearly not matted. They ran with it, and as far as I am concerned that is to their credit.
2) I put the light finish coins on eBay in an attempt to establish value. I gave it my best guess with the BIN prices. As much as I respect others opinions, I'm kind of surprised and maybe even a bit unhappy that anyone would say $999 was a "crazy" price for the highest graded light finish coins we got back out of the many submitted.
John >>
John, out of curiosity, on eBay, your photos show what appears to be an actual "light finish" coin. They do not appear to show any brilliance to them in the slabs. Are these actual images of coins received back from NGC? You say that they were clearly not matted, yet these photos in the lightly matted slabs appear to have an actual light finish to the coin. I don't see any resembling the photos in the original post of this thread. Can you elaborate on what I am seeing in these photos? In your listing on the BST, you also noted the hairlines I keep bringing up that nobody else seems to take notice of. It is of my opinion that these particular ones with the hairlines have in fact not been sprayed. The hairlines are only present on the obverse. The reverse has much more reflectivity to it than the obverse and may be caused by the striking IMO. Just looking to receive some input since you've already managed to get these coins holdered and you have them in hand.
Thanks!
John Maben
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Grand Canyon ATB - New Surface Variety
07/20/2011 - by C. D. Daughtrey, ModernCoinMart
It appears as though we have something new to look out for in the America The Beautiful "Vapor blast" collector's edition 5 ounce silver coins.
Some of the Grand Canyon coins escaped the mint with what we believe to be "unfinshed" surfaces.
How did these come about? The term "Vapor Blast" refers to a sand blast effect the Mint places onto struck examples of the 2010-P 5 ounce ATB coins. We believe this treatment might be placed onto the coins in multiple steps, with each step bearing a more 'pitted' surface than the last. These coins show what may be evidence that some of the examples from this issue are not receiving the "full treatment."
What does the difference look like? In the images below, the difference is quite obvious. On the normal "Vapor Blast" coin (left) the surface is completely covered in visible pits, which gives the coin an overall matte proof-like finish. On the "Light Finish" version these pits are nearly completely missing giving the coin a much more brilliant-like finish.
These two images were taken under identical lighting conditions of a normal "Vapor Blast" Grand Canyon ATB (left) and a "Vapor Blast - Light Finish" Grand Canyon ATB (right) .
So how many were minted? There is no certainty regarding the total number of normal versus "Light Finish" coins minted because the Mint does not keep track of mintage figures for varieties such as these. It is our experience, however, that approximately 5% of the coins we have seen are of the "Light Finish" variety.
Do any of the grading services recognize this variety? Yes. So far NGC is the only grading service we are aware of that will annotate this variety on holders by request. Visit their website at ngccoin.com for further details.
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This is my personal opinion, and is by no means a rag on MCM for getting "light finish" coins. MCM is doing what they do best....getting new stuff to the market ASAP. I'm sure John has some pull over there as MCM is a big customer, but really, it's in NGC's best interest to differentiate varieties and be the first on the scene. Remember when NGC was giving PLs to the 2010 ATBs? People starting switching to them. This isn't quite the same, but we have seen shades of this in the past before.
This isn't simply a quality control issue. The entire surface of the affected coins appears completely different under magnification (a 10X loupe), as if they were "missing" something in the process. While all details are still very nice and crisp on all the coins from this issue, the "light finish" coins show more of the original, unmolested surface...hence the naturally lower grades, because the "vapor blast" technique is actually applied to already struck coins, effectively hiding the tiny surface marks that generally affect grade.
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