Why is a cleaned coin ungradeable ? (Feal free to chime in Mr. Willis and Mr. Hall)

lunytune2

Back in the day , cleaning coins was an accepted practice ... so why does an old cleaning make a coin ungradeable ? In the April issue of Coinage magazine , the time capsule section (1939) It says the ANA president said collectors should not have tarnished coins and proceded to tell how to SAFELY remove tarnish . Silver you scrub with baking soda and lemon juice and gold should be cleaned with a stiff bristle brush and a solution of laundry soap and ammonia . Yes, this sounds very harsh ,, but it was ok then , I think an old cleaning should be gradeable.

llafoe

They are gradable... they're graded Genuine.

If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal?

roadrunner

Decades ago collectors didn't care so much about minor things like luster, surfaces, and hairlines. Details seemed to be the key. So a cleaned unc 60 with a superb strike was
often considered a better "collector" coin than a choice or gem unc coin with a flattish strike. And back in those days most coins weren't worth a heck of a lot.
When Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy brought investors into coins in the early 1970's, this all got turned topsy-turvy again.

roadrunner

BigE

Antique furniture, the same thing-they used to say go ahead and re-finish it, not any more. Look at stamps too, they used to say put a hinge on it and fix it to an album, not any more-they deduct for it! So coins are not alone------BigE

BillyKingsley

Because they said so!

lunytune2

<< <i>They are gradable... they're graded Genuine.

If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal? >>




Maybe lower the grade a little , but they were not doing wrong at the time .. you did not advise the new collector not to clean a coin .. they would say scrub your gold so nobody calls it "DIRTY GOLD"

llafoe

<< <i>

<< <i>They are gradable... they're graded Genuine.

If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal? >>




Maybe lower the grade a little , but they were not doing wrong at the time .. you did not advise the new collector not to clean a coin .. they would say scrub your gold so nobody calls it "DIRTY GOLD" >>



Then PCGS becomes EAC... a little late in the game to change your business strategy/mission statement.

Staircoins

The key is market acceptability.

Coins with old cleanings do sometimes make it into slabs if they are deemed MA. Exceedingly rare specimens, such as some of the 1804 dollars, are perfect examples.

hammered54

<< <i>Decades ago collectors didn't care so much about minor things like luster, surfaces, and hairlines. Details seemed to be the key. So a cleaned unc 60 with a superb strike was
often considered a better "collector" coin than a choice or gem unc coin with a flattish strike. And back in those days most coins weren't worth a heck of a lot.
When Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy brought investors into coins in the early 1970's, this all got turned topsy-turvy again.

roadrunner >>



look in an old red book...lets say 9th edition (1956) there were no uncirculated grades just UNC. most gold only had ..fine and unc.

DNADave

If the grade of a coin was only a description of the wear on it, then cleaning may not matter, but the grade of a coin is not just a description of the wear.
It takes into account marks, luster, strike, toning and eye appeal....so cleaning kills it, as does holes, scratches, tooling, etc.

BTW, that last part of "eye appeal" will always mean that grading is subjective.

TwoSides2aCoin

The idea is to get rid of the disappointments as fast as possible.

max42565

<< <i>They are gradable... they're graded Genuine.

If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal? >>

a Genuine slab from pcgs is an opinion on authenticity and has nothing to do with the grade of the coin. You can have two au 50s one overdipped with just a little lustre around the edges, one more original looking with maybe a little less detail but about half the lustre remaining,both in au-50 holders. Are theese two coins worth the same? I think most seasoned collectors will opt for and pay more for the latter.

Lucanus

<< <i>

<< <i>They are gradable... they're graded Genuine.

If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal? >>




Maybe lower the grade a little , but they were not doing wrong at the time .. you did not advise the new collector not to clean a coin .. they would say scrub your gold so nobody calls it "DIRTY GOLD" >>

Lucanus

Maybe lower the grade a little , but they were not doing wrong at the time .. you did not advise the new collector not to clean a coin .. they would say scrub your gold so nobody calls it "DIRTY GOLD" >>





They were doing wrong at the time. Past stupidity doesn't make an old harsh cleaning acceptable.

Doug

darktone

Cleaned coins do get graded all the time. Just depends how bad it is. Coins in the 60-62 range are usually cleaned to some extent. I have seen MS66's with hairlines from cleaning.

ambro51

When you buy an AU55 bust half on ebay and it comes to you and you look it with your loupe and see it full of nasty directional hairlines on the field and bust from an old cleaning (or a new cleaning)............ you will be mighty PI**ED if PCGS would lower its standards.

It does bother me though when you can study a coin for hours in hand and wonder HOW it was judged to be 'cleaned'. Sometimes I think it is a cop out exit for any number of questions regarding assigning a grade. Whether thats fair or not is usually resolved after the tenth resubmission.

lunytune2

My biggest gripe is that the president of the ANA was giving advice on how to clean your coins ... not Tom , Dick or Harry . Back then , the ANA made the rules . I only have 1 genuine coin , and was hoping it would slip by , but it didn't . But somebody back then did something that was acceptable (not a harsh cleaning).

PerryHall

Why not just give a details grade and add "CLEANED" to the grade? Obviously, a cleaned coin can be graded but a cleaned coin is less desireable than an uncleaned coin in the same grade.

lunytune2

Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book .

Steve27

What you really should be asking is why PCGS provides neither "details" grades nor "net" grades, because all coins are gradeable.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book . >>



I guess I could understand your view if you bought the coin in question in 1939.

questor54

<< <i>Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book . >>



Rule #1 - there are no rules. Fashions in coin collecting, like fashions in everything else, are subject to change. Right now we are in a grade-obsessed phase where truly small differences in grade can mean a value difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars, or turn a common modern nickel into a five figure coin. Fashions will change again.

MidLifeCrisis

Change is usually good. Sometimes people - even those who are supposed to be experts - are wrong.

In this case, the ANA president in 1939 was wrong and changing the collector's mindset about cleaned coins from the way things were in 1939 is a very good thing.

RYK

I think an old cleaning should be gradeable.

Often it is.

the time capsule section (1939) It says the ANA president, RickO, said collectors should not have tarnished coins and proceded to tell how to SAFELY remove tarnish .

Ricko was active in coins in 1939?

BillJones

Altered surfaces or cleaning was one of the hot button issues that created the third party grading service industry. For many years coins dealers cleaned or “whizzed” coins that had a lot of detail and very little wear in order to sell them as “Uncirculated” pieces at high prices.

This became such a scam that it threatened to ruin the credibility of coins as a store of value or as an “investment.” Back in the day a genuine Mint State coin could have been worth say $200 while an Almost Uncirculated piece might have been worth $80. A piece that had been cleaned would be worth even less, as low as $20 or $30. Many novice coin collector and investors lost many thousands of dollars this way. Even the Federal Trade Commission got involved.

PCGS, NGC and ANACS all got into the business of grading coins to combat this problem. Cleaned coins were at the top of the list, along with counterfeit pieces, to be identified and restricted from the market. At this late date the policies are not going to change.

AND I might add that back in the 19th century re-engraving the detail on a worn coin was considered acceptable. Today that is a major no-no. Like everything else collector tastes and acceptance of some practices change over time.

ricko

Evolution is a fact of life in all things - even hobbies. In coins, standards have evolved to the point that desirablity begins at perfection and degrades from that point. Cleaning at one time was to enhance appearance, now, originality rules. The only thing that remains the same is change itself (someone said that, I forget who). Cheers, RickO

Bankerbob56

<< <i>Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book . >>



Here's a little tidbit I have taught my two children from the time they could talk and reason... Fair is a word that describes an annual event, usually held in the summer, at the count "fairgrounds!" Life is not fair, get over it!

pocketpiececommems

Is cleaning the opinion of each different grader?

questor54

<< <i>Is cleaning the opinion of each different grader? >>



I would suspect the differences of opinion are few. Most harsh cleanings would be very obvious to a skilled grader.

The PCGS grading process, as I understand it, is very effective in this way. Having more than one person look at a coin (without knowing the other's opinion) and then reconciling any differences, brings a healthy level of 'peer pressure'.

shorecoll

I guess I need to go take a class on this as I see quite a few of what I think are harshly cleaned coins in slabs. I think it's about market acceptability and that's even more subjective than the grade. Many of what I think are cleaned, I haven't examined up close with a glass, so I could be wrong, but there sure is some nasty looking slabbed stuff on eBay.

Bochiman

<< <i>Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book . >>



No they didn't. The thing is that you are able to collect what you want. And accept the grades/prices you want.
PCGS is doing the same thing. They have chosen NOT to encapsulate cleaned coins, as a business model (yes, we all know there are various stages of cleaning and I am sure many can point out previously cleaned coins in PCGS plastic, but that isn't the norm....just look at all the genuine holders with cleaned as the reason).

So, if PCGS had stated they accept, and will grade, cleaned coins, then they later say "no", well then you would have a fair point with your statement. Otherwise, it is you wanting them to change their business model for you. Not really fair of you.

BigE

"Cleaned" seems like the wrong word to use. You really only get into trouble when the "cleaning" alters the surface of the coin and damages it. Simply removing dirt and contaminants should be OK------------BigE

TPRC

I would recommend that any and every collector take an ANA grading class. Regardless of your level of skill/training, you will learn a lot.The advanced grading classes I have taken were mostly dealers, and many had taken the course multiple times.

beckes

I think the statement "some" end up being graded because they are rare must be incorrect?? A rich man still had to drive the speed limit. He should also have his coins treated the same as those of us who dig through a bowl of pennies while in the Caymans!!!! LOL

jesbroken

Eventually, most original, unblemished coins will reside in collections, only to surface upon the death or financial hardship of the owner. Then we will see new grading titles suchas, barely cleaned, almost dead, mostly cleaned, kinda cleaned and dreadfully cleaned, as these will be all that is left for new collectors to select from. Maybe their will be even a larger caste system--ultra rich with Original ultra high end coins, original medium value coins, original low value coins and then the dreaded Cleansed beasts. Maybe not so much science fiction.
Jim

CoinRaritiesOnline

<< <i>Somebody changed the rules in the middle of the game ! Not fair in my book . >>



Many years ago in this country you could buy beachfront land just about anywhere it existed at a discount to the same size plot of land inland from the ocean. The reason? The soil was too poor to grow much in the way of crops. Now beachfront property brings an enormous premium.

That's so unfair!

Should I demand the "discounted beachfront property" that my ancestors were able to buy?

Things that are desirable to buyers can and do change over time. It is quite likely they will they will be at least somewhat different 72 years from now.

BuffaloIronTail

**"Cleaned" seems like the wrong word to use. You really only get into trouble when the "cleaning" alters the surface of the coin and damages it. Simply removing dirt and contaminants should be OK------------BigE **

---

I agree. If I "clean" the gunk off a coin without in any way harming the surface, I think that it is acceptable. ALTERING....of course............is another thing.

If I'm not mistaken, it is the "signs" of cleaning/altering (wipe, brush, whizz, residue, scratches) the TPG's don't like.

Pete

Insider2

This thread was started with a completely false premise: Why is a cleaned coin ungradeable ?

Problem coins are routinely graded by everyone whether raw or slabbed.

@lunytune2 said: "They are gradable... they're graded Genuine."

They are graded "Genuine" if you ask for that on the label. Otherwise, AFAIK they are given a grade and the problem is listed.

"If a harshly cleaned coin has AU details and an uncleaned coin is AU... are you proposing they're equal?

@lunytune2 Why don't you take a crack at answering this question first. It will go a long way to making you a numismatist. So, what do you think?

@lunytune2 said: "My biggest gripe is that the president of the ANA was giving advice on how to clean your coins ... not Tom , Dick or Harry . Back then , the ANA made the rules . I only have 1 genuine coin , and was hoping it would slip by , but it didn't . But somebody back then did something that was acceptable (not a harsh cleaning)."

LOL, Times change and customs change. People - even the experts learn new things. At one time the experts thought the world was flat or the sun revolved around the earth. When I became a professional numismatist the ANA defined whizzing as : Chemical cleaning!

@BillJones said: PCGS, NGC and ANACS all got into the business of grading coins to combat ..."

As you know Bill, ANACS and several other services such as INSAB and NCI were combating C/F's and other problems in our hobby over a decade before our host was a gleam in Mr. Hall's eye!

Insider2

OK, CALL ME UNINFORMED. It is Sunday and I cannot call PCGS for the answer.

While reading this thread, I am under the impression that PCGS will no longer put AU details, Cleaned on a label because they have stopped grading problem coins. Now they only put genuine on the label of problem coins.

I cannot believe this is true. I think I either misinterpreted a post or someone has posted misinformation!

PLEASE HELP ASAP! What's the truth?

Coinsponge

I have heard it said that certain tpg rules are in place for sight unseen trading of coins. I have to ask, who buys a coin without looking it over pretty good?

Coinsponge

@ricko said:
Evolution is a fact of life in all things - even hobbies. In coins, standards have evolved to the point that desirablity begins at perfection and degrades from that point. Cleaning at one time was to enhance appearance, now, originality rules. The only thing that remains the same is change itself (someone said that, I forget who). Cheers, RickO

If "change" remained the same then there would be no need for PCGS. Think about that.

DMWJR

The TPG's have different standards for different series, and also different coins within a series.

Look at prove half cents -- all cleaned or doctored.

Look at 1922 No D Lincoln.

Also, when I sell my MS67 coin to another person, why should it upgrade? Was I lied to by the grade on the holder?

Insider2

OK, CALL ME UNINFORMED. It is Sunday and I cannot call PCGS for the answer.

While reading this thread, I am under the impression that PCGS will no longer put AU details, Cleaned on a label because they have stopped grading problem coins. Now they only put genuine on the label of problem coins.

I cannot believe this is true. I think I either misinterpreted a post or someone has posted misinformation!

PLEASE HELP ASAP! What's the truth?

Anyone?

OldIndianNutKase

@Insider2 said:
OK, CALL ME UNINFORMED. It is Sunday and I cannot call PCGS for the answer.

While reading this thread, I am under the impression that PCGS will no longer put AU details, Cleaned on a label because they have stopped grading problem coins. Now they only put genuine on the label of problem coins.

I cannot believe this is true. I think I either misinterpreted a post or someone has posted misinformation!

PLEASE HELP ASAP! What's the truth?

Anyone?

Cleaning - AU Details. No numerical grade.

OINK

Insider2

So PCGS will put genuine on the label or the adjectival grade (w/o number) and the problem.

THANKS! Dumb me thought they would used either Genuine or AU-53, Cleaned; XF-40, Rim file, etc like some other services do.

Coinsponge

@Insider2 said:
So PCGS will put genuine on the label or the adjectival grade (w/o number) and the problem.

THANKS! Dumb me thought they would used either Genuine or AU-53, Cleaned; XF-40, Rim file, etc like some other services do.

I don't see why putting more information on a coin label is a bad thing. I can understand not counting in in population reports if it has problems. The way things are done now makes me think that the leaders in the grading industry do not trust collectors to have enough sense to adjust the value of a coin for problems that are clearly noted.

Insider2

@Coinsponge said:

@Insider2 said:
So PCGS will put genuine on the label or the adjectival grade (w/o number) and the problem.

THANKS! Dumb me thought they would used either Genuine or AU-53, Cleaned; XF-40, Rim file, etc like some other services do.

I don't see why putting more information on a coin label is a bad thing. I can understand not counting in in population reports if it has problems. The way things are done now makes me think that the leaders in the grading industry do not trust collectors to have enough sense to adjust the value of a coin for problems that are clearly noted.

Actually the two major grading services (PCGS & NGC) did not trust collectors at all in the beginning. They may be a little cautious today too.

For example, one reason coins like a 1972 DDO-007 Lincoln were not attributed was the TPGS though uninformed collectors would think the coin's value was on par with the major Redbook variety. They didn't want any kind of problem coin in their slabs either.

Thankfully the smaller TPGS that are considered worthless, detail-graded, attributed, and slabbed almost anything causing the top two to follow their lead and imitate them years later.

PS I don't think any of the smaller major services slab cardboard milk bottle caps any more. LOL.

logger7

If I remember correctly Anacs used to have details coin in the population report, not totally sure of that. It would be like not counting in the USA census certain categories of citizens, they obviously exclude illegals. Problem coins especially with rare issues should be in the census.

cameonut2011

judging by what I have seen in TPG plastic as of late, a decent number of cleaned coins do straight grade.

oih82w8

I don't recall seeing a holding with "properly cleaned".

dmwest

I just had a large group of coins graded by Anacs and they graded the ones they marked cleaned as well as the one that was marked corroded.