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$50 Silver By April 26th 2011? POLL

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Comments

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We closed above $38.

    If this holds then look up above; there is no more resistance.
    Tempus fugit.
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭


    << <i>We closed above $38.

    If this holds then look up above; there is no more resistance. >>



    We closed at $39.28
  • If it keeps this pace it is possible

    as long as the fix does not erupt during the night shift.
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    It is always a difficult decision over whether to take profits

    or let them run. One must balance risk, rewards and long term

    goals. I sold because of a personal issue, but I see no problem

    with people who keep stacking, as long as they understand the

    potential risks. Some of the really great fortunes were made by

    folks who bought and held unto things like PM, stock and real estate.

    Do what you are comfortable with, and the best of luck no matter

    what you decide to do.image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • I say yes...with fingers crossed
    theres no such thing as a stupid question is there?
  • If things keep going the way they are I would say yes!
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It'll hit $50 eventually, but a normal and temporary pull-back's due.

    People have to get used to the higher prices, until they no longer feel "high."
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It'll hit $50 eventually, but a normal and temporary pull-back's due.

    People have to get used to the higher prices, until they no longer feel "high." >>




    Obviously you nailed it here as this is the way the real world works.

    This is a special situation and we may be on the verge of a buying panic. Essentially this
    is caused by a sudden and dramatic reevaluation of the percieved worth of somthing brought
    about by either a sudden recognition of its scarcity or of its importance. This won't affect
    everyone at once of course like the way a bull market works but it will affect enough indiv-
    iduals to cause sharply rising prices and then more people pile on. The world hasn't seen
    a good buying panic in some time now but one of these days we're likely see the grandaddy
    of all panics in silver.

    We're through all the resistance so the day could happen at any time. There is no one sit-
    ting on an accumulation of silver purchased for over $38 just waiting to break even.

    Tempus fugit.
  • Updated 4/9 5:13p CST

    POLL Prob 19.89% (36/145)

    Actual prob of hitting 50: .27%

    Actual prob of being at or above 50: .12%

  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    Seventeen days to go and about 10 bucks. It is going to be interesting. image
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
    12 days to go & about $8.00....It's becoming interesting.
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    Yes it is.

    Hi Ho Silver - YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!
  • I'll be your huckleberry.

    I say $50 by May 15th, 2011 - with the help of Bolivia.
  • Tiggs2012Tiggs2012 Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Think will get REALLY close to $50 then pull back significantly
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,121 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>A bit too early. Will do so by July 1. >>



    Would you care to wager a 1 oz silver bar on that statement? >>


    Bet ya a silver maple against your silver bar that by midnight July 1, 2011 silver will have hit $50 an ounce. If it hits before July 1, PM for mailing instructions. If it hasn't hit by July 1 PM me your mailing address and remind me of the wager. Deal? >>



    That's one bet I hope to loose. image
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • I voted no. I will also go as far to say that Silver will NOT hit $50 in 2011. This is just a gut feeling prediction. image

    DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a '70's silver art bar expert but I try my best to play one on the Internet.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In early 2008, when silver was around $21 and climbing, I remember how determined I was that silver was a good investment even though it was "high". I already had a sizable position, and I added to it again and again. It was "high" at that time. Then it got hit, hard - down to $9.00.

    The Lesson? Don't expect to make a big gain just because you buy into a silver market that's high and appears to be going higher. Did I buy high? Yes. Did I sell at the bottom? No. Did it go back up? Yes.

    Buy the stuff as a way to get out of dollars and into something fungible. Sell when you need to sell, but not until.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • DorkGirlDorkGirl Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭
    $7.40 to goimage
    Becky
  • Update 4/19/011 11:25a CST:

    POLL prob: 21.4286% (42Y/154N)

    Prob of hitting 50: 0%

    Prob of finishing above 50: 0%
  • TrustNo1TrustNo1 Posts: 1,359
    getting closer
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Surely by now we can agree the chances of silver hitting the target in time is over 1%.
    Tempus fugit.
  • Just hit 45.

    As of 10:27a CST 4/20/11:

    Prob of hitting 50: 14.12%

    Prob of closing above 50: 6.61%
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,133 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Just hit 45.

    As of 10:27a CST 4/20/11:

    Prob of hitting 50: 14.12%

    Prob of closing above 50: 6.61% >>



    Where do you get your numbers? Do you just pull them out of your.............er, never mind.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Simple statistics Perry.

    Do you have a different calculation? image
  • fastrudyfastrudy Posts: 2,096
    I would like to see the actual raw data that those statistics are based upon. But I fully expect to be blown off like you did to Perry
    Successful transactions with: DCarr, Meltdown, Notwilight, Loki, MMR, Musky1011, cohodk, claychaser, cheezhed, guitarwes, Hayden, USMoneyLover

    Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Every stat has to be based on a set of data and some basic assumptions. To give out probabilities with no backup is meaningless to anyone who happens to be looking at those conclusions.

    Silver's on a run today +$1.40. Pretty heady stuff.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    I know one thing. We may not make it to $50 on the date indicated but it appears we will be damn close. In fact, I believe we will be alot closer than what the first "no voter" anticipated.
  • "...To give out probabilities with no backup is meaningless to anyone who happens to be looking at those conclusions..."

    Without giving away the exact process, MY calculation is based on a model that incorporates all past day to day price movements over a 1 year period for the underlying futures contract, the average true range (ATR) of each day to day movement, the standard deviation of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum averages of those ATR's (both over the sample period as well as over an "n" day period (where "n" = the remaining trading days) and certain other proprietary weighting factors.

    BTW, I trade commodity portfolios both for myself and for hedge funds and use both my personal model as well as some of the ones they built to come up with a consensus probability estimate.

    Certainly one could render a slightly more precise estimate if one considered the life of the contract (instead of just one year) OR only considering the data for just the front month contracts over the sample period (but backtesting has proven by only an infitessimaly negligible - and statistically insignificant - amount).

    As I said, if anyone has a better calculation please correct me.

    btw: As of 12:53p CST 4/20/11:

    Prob of hitting 50: 11.82%

    Prob of closing above 50: 5.52%
  • fastrudyfastrudy Posts: 2,096
    Without giving away the exact process, MY calculation is based on a model that incorporates all past day to day price movements over a 1 year period for the underlying futures contract, the average true range (ATR) of each day to day movement, the standard deviation of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum averages of those ATR's (both over the sample period as well as over an "n" day period (where "n" = the remaining trading days) and certain other proprietary weighting factors


    Like he said, "Simple Statistics, Perry" !!

    image

    Blaise Pascal would be proud of you! I am more of a WAG type of guy.
    Successful transactions with: DCarr, Meltdown, Notwilight, Loki, MMR, Musky1011, cohodk, claychaser, cheezhed, guitarwes, Hayden, USMoneyLover

    Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for giving some insight to your ciphering, BR. My point was, and you are obviously equipped to do it - that in order to make any sense of a probability, it's also important to know some of the parameters in the model. Otherwise, there is nothing to understand, nothing to question, and nothing to debate. The math doesn't leave any doubts, but the model construct is only a construct. Yours is based on price action and timing and I'm sure that it helps your trading.

    I don't discount any variable that might show up, regardless of whether it's in a particular model or not. And that's my other point.

    Your model shows a decrease in probability after today's action. I don't understand that, especially since momentum appears to play a part in your numbers.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, silver is up 51c in after hours trading.

    If we're not in the buying panic yet we might be by Friday morning.

    Watch for a $2.50 gap higher for confirmation.

    If this is it the size of the gaps will mean nothing about how high it's going to go. They'll
    only provide a clue about how fast. This could be over in mere weeks.
    Tempus fugit.
  • "I don't discount any variable that might show up, regardless of whether it's in a particular model or not. And that's my other point.

    Your model shows a decrease in probability after today's action. I don't understand that, especially since momentum appears to play a part in your numbers."


    True that not every possible variable would be included. e.g. a mistaken (or intentional) launch of an ICBM from Russia on New York (or many other even slightly more likely politcal/world events) isn't factored in.

    As for momemtum (& it's factored in heavily with the weighting algorithim I use), but becomes less & less of a factor as "n" approaches 0 (notice how much higher the prob's were earlier today).

    FYI, as of 9:34p CST 4/20 (w/SIK1 @ 41.91 & n=3):

    Prob of hitting 50: .16%

    Prob of closing above 50: .08%
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At this moment, the momentum seems to be increasing.image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Update @ 1:30p CST 4/21.

    Silver at 46.34. Prob of hitting 50 between .16% & 1.7%
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BigRick, do you think that any of the big money players in silver attach any significance to $50 silver as a threshold or ceiling?

    It seems to me that if they are using pricing models, the $50 mark is just an arbitrary number.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,133 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Without giving away the exact process, MY calculation is based on a model that incorporates all past day to day price movements over a 1 year period for the underlying futures contract, the average true range (ATR) of each day to day movement, the standard deviation of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum of those ATR's, the minimum & maximum averages of those ATR's (both over the sample period as well as over an "n" day period (where "n" = the remaining trading days) and certain other proprietary weighting factors


    Like he said, "Simple Statistics, Perry" !! >>



    Garbage in. Garbage out.image
    As soon as you start giving us probabilities computed out to a hundreth of a percent, you lose all credibility. The price of precious metals are greatly influenced by world events so unless you have a really good crystal ball, your numbers are nothing more than a wild guess.


    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Give us a better number Perry (But Educate Yourself First). image

    Another For Perry image

    If you can't provide a BETTER estimate shut your pie hole. image

    Guess Wilkepedia "loses all credibility" by going to hundreths of a percent as well:

    "About 68.27% of the values lie within 1 standard deviation of the mean. Similarly, about 95.45% of the values lie within 2 standard deviations of the mean. Nearly all (99.73%) of the values lie within 3 standard deviations of the mean."

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    3 sigmas don't automatically adjust for momentum or timing - your model has to incorporate that - and the assumptions you make will influence the result.

    Perry is correct about world events and their effect upon market psychology - and it doesn't have to be a rogue nuke hit in a city center. Any kind of unanticipated news can trigger a market run right now - I don't see how you can model that very well.

    While writing this post, I went looking for Nassim Talib's name, came across his Black Swan book online and started reading. Now I've got to have it. Dang, it's interesting reading, and I just read a few pages! I came across his explanation of "the triplet of opacity" which is kinda like the point I was trying to make here.

    To wit:
    - the illusion of understanding or how everyone thinks he knows what is going on in a world that is more complicated (or random) than they realize -
    - retrospective distortion, or how we can assess matters only after the fact, as if they were in a rearview mirror, (history seems clearer in a history book than in the empirical reality), and
    - the overevaluation of factual information and the handicap of authoritative and learned people, particularly when they create categories - when they "Platonify".

    This guy writes very well, and I've been meaning to get his book. Well, gotta go run some errands (and see if the book is at Barnes & Noble.) Later.image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    Funny, there goobs of computers under the stock exchange going this very or similar thing. But, I guess stocks aren't effected by world events, etc.
  • I agree 110% about world event risk (WER) and its capacity to effectuate a (perhaps) 10 sigma (???) move on an underlying and in NO WAY EVER led anyone to believe my model was anything other than a PURELY statistical one which DOESN'T factor in such risk (although a 10 sigma move based on some unidentified WER has by definition far less than a .01% probability of occurring). Thus all the WER's are in the tail (of the curve of a normal distribution) - i.e. would require more than a 3 sigma move - & have WAY less than a .27% prob. of occurring and don't in any meaningful way "move the needle" so to speak.

    I guess Zambia could announce a silver find greater 500% greater than all known silver to date (mined plus believed to be still in mines) which would have a SEVERE bearish effect or some equal magnitude event might have an opposite effect. The problem is though, from a modeling aspect, these possibilities have a near zero probability of occurring and thus only a miniscule effect on a prediction of an underlyting's future price (thus they're all in the tail out past 3 sigmas).

    While it's easy to point out that a model is meaningless, weak, without merit, etc., merely for the lack of inclusion of WER, frankly I'm unaware of ANY model ANYWHERE that DOES in fact explicitly incorporate such WER insofar as reducing it to a number. Does anyone know of one?

    I think a better approach is to provide a model with the results that come with the caveat that the model was purely statistical and DID NOT incorporate WER and let the users adjust the model's results based on their OWN perception of WER.

    As for the stitistics, one can ONLY use the PAST data to estimate (i.e. come up w/probabilities) of future events.

    I've still not heard of a better way to ACTUALLY come up with a REAL NUMERICAL PROBABILITY (that at least those with a grasp of mathematics/statistics can agree on as to its basic underlying soundness of method) of the future price of silver at some given point in time (or anything else for that matter).
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rick, the world isn't static and neither are the probabilities. Neither are the WERs as you call them. "Past results are no guarantee of future performance" - how many times have I read that one?

    I'm sure we can have a discussion about whether silver will hit or exceed $50 by the end of next week with, or without probability statements - but I'm not so sure I'd ever want to hang my hat on a probability estimate if I were dueling with Goldman Sachs and their flash trading program in the silver futures market.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I agree 110% about world event risk (WER) and its capacity to effectuate a (perhaps) 10 sigma (???) move on an underlying and in NO WAY EVER led anyone to believe my model was anything other than a PURELY statistical one which DOESN'T factor in such risk (although a 10 sigma move based on some unidentified WER has by definition far less than a .01% probability of occurring). Thus all the WER's are in the tail (of the curve of a normal distribution) - i.e. would require more than a 3 sigma move - & have WAY less than a .30% prob. of occurring and don't in any meaningful way "move the needle" so to speak.

    I guess Zambia could announce a silver find greater 500% greater than all known silver to date (mined plus believed to be still in mines) which would have a SEVERE bearish effect or some equal magnitude event might have an opposite effect. The problem is though, from a modeling aspect, these possibilities have a near zero probability of occurring and thus only a miniscule effect on a prediction of an underlyting's future price (thus they're all in the tail out past 3 sigmas).

    While it's easy to point out that a model is meaningless, weak, without merit, etc., merely for the lack of inclusion of WER, frankly I'm unaware of ANY model ANYWHERE that DOES in fact explicitly incorporate such WER insofar as reducing it to a number. Does anyone know of one?

    I think a better approach is to provide a model with the results that come with the caveat that the model was purely statistical and DID NOT incorporate WER and let the users adjust the model's results based on their OWN perception of WER.

    As for the stitistics, one can ONLY use the PAST data to estimate (i.e. come up w/probabilities) of future events.

    I've still not heard of a better way to ACTUALLY come up with a REAL NUMERICAL PROBABILITY (that at least those with a grasp of mathematics/statistics can agree on as to its basic underlying soundness of method) of the future price of silver at some given point in time (or anything else for that matter). >>




    Frankly I'm a seat of the pants sort of statitician. Sure that's a pretty poor way to make
    an estimation perhaps but ultimately there usually isn't a meaningful way to estimate real
    world events that can't be quantified. Weather beyond 7 days can't be predicted with any
    accuracy because weather is chaotic and to a real extent everything else is as well.

    I voted yes in this thread but I was really just paying devil's advocate. I didn't think there
    was over a 2% chance initially and by my first post I was down to about 1.5%. But it's go-
    ing up now not because I expect that silver is worth mnore and people will come to believe
    it or because it's going up so fast that it looks easy. I'm up close to 3% because every day
    that goes by with these huge gains puts us closer to a buying panic that I've long believed
    was inevitable in silver. It's not a question of whether the price is likely to get so hign in
    so short a time, it's a question of when the buying panic begins.

    If there were 33 worlds exactly like this one I think that in one of them silver will be $50
    by Tuesday. If it does then look for $75 the next week.
    Tempus fugit.
  • ANACONDAANACONDA Posts: 4,692
    Good question....will silver hit $50 by April 26th....I will say that silver will reach $50.00 before the expiration of April 26th however, I think it may not settle above $49.99 after the close of the trading day.
  • DUIGUYDUIGUY Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭
    yes,way.
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."



    - Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
  • fastrudyfastrudy Posts: 2,096
    As for the stitistics, one can ONLY use the PAST data to estimate (i.e. come up w/probabilities) of future events

    Past performance is not indicative of future events
    your model is meaningless
    Successful transactions with: DCarr, Meltdown, Notwilight, Loki, MMR, Musky1011, cohodk, claychaser, cheezhed, guitarwes, Hayden, USMoneyLover

    Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
  • I still do not think that silver will hit $50 this year. It might go up to mid $48's or $49 before it get smacked down hard. It is going to get ugly on the way down in my opinion. The high is currently at $46.77 (Kitco quote only) but it will not make it to $50 and it will get smacked down to the lows earlier this year. The reason that I am saying this because it seems to me that this upmove is too far too fast IMO. Look out below because that first silver step downward will be a doozy.
    DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a '70's silver art bar expert but I try my best to play one on the Internet.
  • Of course what seems to be overlooked repeatedly is that past prices embody (and fully price in) 100% of ALL PAST WER and a model that incorporates past prices ALSO by definition implicitly incorporates ALL PAST WER effect on prices. Where the opinions would thus seemingly diverge is whether, on balance, future WER will be about the same as past WER or will differ significantly.

    Anyone that thinks there is NO WAY to predict mathematically the probability of what the price of something will be at some point in the future is simply uninformed. Of course there will be errors but the magnitude of those errors (over time & over an ever approaching infinite number of trials and ever increasing sample size) is what gives you a confidence level in the range of your predictions.

    Can there be a once in a century or millenium event that moves the needle 10 standard deviations? Of course. Is it likely? No. Does that event have more than a .27% (i.e. less than 3 sigma) chance of occurring? No. Does the probability of that event move the needle (i.e. change the predictive value) in a meaningful way? No. Do people that trade regularly want to know with some degree of confidence the probability of a commodity going to a certain price by a certain date? Absolutely. Is the probability of getting to that certain price by that certain date important? Of course. Do MANY calculate it OR accept the calculations of many of the big commodity brokerages software? Yes.

    I'm sorry those that see no value or merit in the process simply do not understand. It's my failure if I haven't been able to explain it better. image

    Fastrudy, are you saying it is impossible to determine the probability of whether silver will hit 50 by close on April 26th? image

    Plug In 10 & -10 As The Interval & See What Pops Out
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Will the flap of a butterfly's wings in the rainforest of Brazil set off a tornado in Texas?

    Isn't there a model for that too?image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Update 4/24 8:22p CST:

    SIK1 @ 47.60

    Prob of hitting 50: .23%

    Prob of closing above 50: .11%

    Just fyi: SIK1 50C now Bid .125/Ask .160 (margin of @ $3,491.10 per contract - ouch to those that went with the poll & odds & sold them).
  • Coins101Coins101 Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭
    image
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