we cant talk back to our wives. we dont understand electronics. we cant argue and fight in public. keyboards make us powerful. we have time. everyone needs an enemy. (for further information on THIS< read the "Report from Iron Mountain" (thanks bongobongo for showing me this)
1) Increasing amount of counterfeit expensive coins the quality of which is steadily improving 2) The creeping "market acceptance" of coins which have been tampered with, doctored, etc. a) Psychedelic colored PF IHCs b) Wildly colored CBHs in MS 65 which appeared around 2004 and 2005, virtually all of which were slabbed and imo, effectively killed the market for these coins in this grade. Although I need one for my type set and thing the series is an attractive one, I stopped looking for one back in 2006 because of this. c) Cleaned, AT'd bleached, etc. Bust $s, all but the most hideous of which IMO have been slabbed. Many of them have been net graded. Unfortunately, with respect to this series, this has been going on for quite awhile. It took me eight years to find a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in AU which I wanted for my collection for which I paid imo a reasonable price.
If someone wants to pay wild premiums for attractively toned Morgans, talk about e-bay, or collect something which doesn't interest me, that's fine because none of this affects me personally. However, if someone buys a coin in a series I collect because "it's pretty" -- even though it has been baked -- it does affect me personally because it influences what I have to pay for coins which I collect.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
1) Increasing amount of counterfeit expensive coins the quality of which is steadily improving 2) The creeping "market acceptance" of coins which have been tampered with, doctored, etc. a) Psychedelic colored PF IHCs b) Wildly colored CBHs in MS 65 which appeared around 2004 and 2005, virtually all of which were slabbed and imo, effectively killed the market for these coins in this grade. Although I need one for my type set and thing the series is an attractive one, I stopped looking for one back in 2006 because of this. c) Cleaned, AT'd bleached, etc. Bust $s, all but the most hideous of which IMO have been slabbed. Many of them have been net graded. Unfortunately, with respect to this series, this has been going on for quite awhile. It took me eight years to find a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in AU which I wanted for my collection for which I paid imo a reasonable price.
If someone wants to pay wild premiums for attractively toned Morgans, talk about e-bay, or collect something which doesn't interest me, that's fine because none of this affects me personally. However, if someone buys a coin in a series I collect because "it's pretty" -- even though it has been baked -- it does affect me personally because it influences what I have to pay for coins which I collect.
Those are - seriously - all the reasons that people love to collect Modern Bullion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Lets face it: most of us coin collectors are balding, middle aged & older socially awkward creatures who live with our mothers and don't dance. Chances are, we were the last ones picked for basket ball in school. It doesn't always matter why or what for, but bashing each over the head here is the sometimes the closest some of get to real human interaction... and that feels good!
In all seriousness, I find this forum to be a great resource for both education & entertainment... its get polarized sometimes because that's way people all are... I enjoy reading opinions here even when I don't agree with them, and I am apt to readily offer mine when I have one without too much worry over what some folks may think of mine. I have observed that sometimes folks are apt to type things anonymously that they would never say face to face... I keep this grain of salt in mind whenever I see things getting heated... and on a personal note, my personal favorite aspect of participating in this forum is finding common ground with folks who are very different from myself & forging friendships.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go fire up the Porsche... I am supposed to meet a friend (she's a model) so we can talk about her starring in the music video for my new song.
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me.
Knowledge is power. Those novices who would think the 1964 peace could be the real thing shouldn't be in the hobby. as for altering a genuine coin: no one was arrested when Presidential Dollars for Obama's inauguration were altered with stickers and paint and called "rare".....
<< <i>Knowledge is power. Those novices who would think the 1964 peace could be the real thing shouldn't be in the hobby. as for altering a genuine coin: no one was arrested when Presidential Dollars for Obama's inauguration were altered with stickers and paint and called "rare"..... >>
How was that actual planchet or design altered?
All the scam company did was slap a sticker with POTUS' likeness on the coin.
Just to recap, the Daniel Carr's legal argument is as follows:
1.) Counterfeit Argument Although his 1964-D dated fantasy Peace Dollars say "United States of America" and "One Dollar" on them, they are not counterfeits, because they are over struck on genuine, legal tender U.S. currency.
2.) Forgery Argument Because the governments official claim is that no genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars exist, the only way the same government could argue that his 1964-D fantasy coins are forgeries, would be to produce an original.
3.) Defacement Argument United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, makes it illegal for anyone to FRAUDULENTLY deface U.S. coins... although many would argue that the mere existence of Daniel Carr's convincing 1964-D fantasy pieces is enough to constitute fraud, his own argument is that a.) he has only marketed these coins as being exactly what they are, b.) he states in his terms of each sale that they can only be resold with full-disclosure, and c.) he has furthermore taken steps to render them readily identifiable.
4.) Hobby Protection Act Argument Per the Hobby Protection Act, all copies of genuine coins must be clearly identified on their surfaces as copies; Daniel Carr's argument for not following this procedure, is that one cannot make a copy of a coin that does not exist; (see forgery argument.)
You may not like these coins, you may even interpret the laws that pertain to them in a manner that would render them illegal... but personally, I find the debate to be key aspect of the coin's appeal.
In any case, Daniel Carr has hardly been clandestine about this issue, and thus far it looks like he has been able to proceed with his effort without any government interference, so perhaps the opinion of the government is that they are legal.
<< <i>Knowledge is power. Those novices who would think the 1964 peace could be the real thing shouldn't be in the hobby. as for altering a genuine coin: no one was arrested when Presidential Dollars for Obama's inauguration were altered with stickers and paint and called "rare"..... >>
How was that actual planchet or design altered?
All the scam company did was slap a sticker with POTUS' likeness on the coin. >>
many companies also plated them with different materials. The Mint issued a press release on it.
<< <i>Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist. >>
Kind of ridiculous to put Not Authentic on something that doesn't exist.
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is? I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them).
Because those that have bought these things want to convince others that they are smart and did the right thing. If they truly didn't care what others thought of what they collect, they wouldn't need the threads to try to justify carr, this "coin", nor that they bought it.
That's the funny thing. I know that when I buy things, I may ask for some opinions of what others think, but at the end of the day, whether I underpaid/overpaid/justly paid, I am the one who wants to be happy with what I purchase and I ultimately don't care what others think ... it's my collection and not theirs. Now, those that try to continue publicly justifying these, particularly when there are no (anti) threads, against them, running, are just pathetic, imho (those that bought them, and don't care about others, and aren't trying to convince everyone about them, aren't pathetic ).
What if I make a convincing 1890-O Barber Dime in MS64?
It shouldn't be a problem, right? >>
As long as you don't put "COPY", I think there are some forum members that would buy many from you and then start a few hundred threads to convince others to do the same
D Carr really hit it out of the park with his fanatasy coin.......incredible how this is still being bandied about. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
<< <i>Just to recap, the Daniel Carr's legal argument is as follows:
1.) Counterfeit Argument Although his 1964-D dated fantasy Peace Dollars say "United States of America" and "One Dollar" on them, they are not counterfeits, because they are over struck on genuine, legal tender U.S. currency.
2.) Forgery Argument Because the governments official claim is that no genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars exist, the only way the same government could argue that his 1964-D fantasy coins are forgeries, would be to produce an original.
3.) Defacement Argument United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, makes it illegal for anyone to FRAUDULENTLY deface U.S. coins... although many would argue that the mere existence of Daniel Carr's convincing 1964-D fantasy pieces is enough to constitute fraud, his own argument is that a.) he has only marketed these coins as being exactly what they are, b.) he states in his terms of each sale that they can only be resold with full-disclosure, and c.) he has furthermore taken steps to render them readily identifiable.
4.) Hobby Protection Act Argument Per the Hobby Protection Act, all copies of genuine coins must be clearly identified on their surfaces as copies; Daniel Carr's argument for not following this procedure, is that one cannot make a copy of a coin that does not exist; (see forgery argument.)
You may not like these coins, you may even interpret the laws that pertain to them in a manner that would render them illegal... but personally, I find the debate to be key aspect of the coin's appeal.
In any case, Daniel Carr has hardly been clandestine about this issue, and thus far it looks like he has been able to proceed with his effort without any government interference, so perhaps the opinion of the government is that they are legal. >>
DCarr did his homework. I think the most egregious thing he could be accused of is perhaps "exlploiting a loophole" in the HPA.
It seems to me that those who take the position that the HPA requires a "copy" stamp for these coins have a weaker argument.
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is? I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them). >>
"Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep promoting the coin!"
..........most , if not all the posts I have made concerning the Fantasy Peace Dollar's are in response to negitive/ anti- D.Carr comments
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is? I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them). >>
"Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep promoting the coin!"
..........most , if not all the posts I have made concerning the Fantasy Peace Dollar's are in response to negitive/ anti- D.Carr comments >>
Are those comments that you refer to ones that started threads themselves or just comments within threads started by promoters like you? There is a difference there, and that difference is what I was talking about....please don't ignore that difference to justify yourself
Bochiman, you and others are proving my point. You did not even take the time to read or respond to my last post. After all, I AM the OP. All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!!;
<< <i>Bochiman, you and others are proving my point. You did not even take the time to read or respond to me last post. After all, I AM the OP. All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining: 1arguement;
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!! >>
Dear OP Ocho. You must be going through harder times than most of us....I hope and pray you sit back and reflect on your accusations!!! My advice: stop posting for a while......you are taking good people Bochiman to task for no reason!!!!!
<< <i>Bochiman, you and others are proving my point. You did not even take the time to read or respond to my last post. After all, I AM the OP. All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!!;
edited for spelling. >>
No, I read the post. I didn't respond to it because there was nothing to respond to. I don't think my posts were attacks...they were noting, for clarification's sake, that Pawpaul, and others who are posting to defend these things, are the ones starting the threads and then whining when others post that they aren't really coins.
Same thing in the post above these, by Pawpaul where he says that all the threads he has started have been because of posts in other's threads (not ones they started) where folks didn't like these things. So, he really likes them. Good for him. However, because OTHER people have issues with them, he feels the need to start multiple threads defending them? Really? How insecure in collecting is that?
Like I have said....if you like collecting something, go for it. Why feel the need for validation? I like SAEs. I like toned SAEs. Many don't like SAEs. Many don't like toned SAEs. I don't feel the need to start many threads defending them when others post how they don't like them.
I like moderns. Same thing applies.....I don't need others to justify my feelings.
It goes on and on. Collect what you like, enjoy what you collect, and to hell with how others feel on what you collect (I don't like exonumia or tokens or SCDs, but I know others collect them, and I don't think my feelings about them should convince others to collect them or not).
The issue with these things is very much, I believe, what others have posted....it comes down to greed and money. Potential resale. No one paid "melt" value for these. There was a HUGE premium to them. Even though some folks aren't thinking about money with them, I think that the majority of loud supporters wouldn't like it if, for some reason, their "investment" became only melt value for some reason, now would they?
(ps....Goldbully, thanks for your post just above....saw that and wanted to recognize it without just adding another post).
Well, heck. I like Moderns, but I don't go around making crappy remarks about Seated Liberty Quarters or Bust Halves.
I like the Carr Peace Dollar Overstrikes too, and I don't go around saying that 3-Cent Nickels are ridiculous.
I like Platinum Eagles, but I don't make a point of ridiculing VAM collectors.
I buy my share of Proof Sets, Silver Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Presidential Dollar Proof Sets, and some other Moderns that may never "skyrocket to the Moon", and I may take a bath on some Large Cents that I buy.
I don't cover my eyes and snicker when a kid asks some dealer at a coin show if he has a 1918-D Lincoln in VG or better.
The point is, that the OP has a valid point. Too many seem to think that their way is the only way and that everyone else is an idiot. And that's too bad.
The point is, it's my collection and it's my call. Not anyone else's. Nobody needs to validate my bad judgement (or my slam dunks, either). <<End of rant.>>
Sumorada, that really is kind of a nice dime you got there!
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me. >>
I know this really upsets you. But why don't you take a few deep breaths and read what I posted. I said it was not about money, but was more emotional, which you seemed to support with your post. --jerry
Like I said, If Carr's coins REALLY bother you, report him to the FED's. If they can't or wont do anything about it, end of story. Goldbully, I am not bashing anyone. I am pointing out that there is more in life to concern one's self with. And yes, I AM going through something and you are astute for recognizing it. I have been walking around with Stage 4 metastacized Lung Cancer for about 14 months now. The doctors gave me much less than a year to live. You couldn't tell by my outward appearance that there is anything going on. Internally though, there is. Certain things in life cause us to take an accounting of what is REALLY important in life. Sort of adjusting the importance meter. D. Carr, NCM and there ilk are not issues worthy of repeated (and sometimes venomous) banter. Yes, life is TOO short. I DO believe that I am not going anywhere in the near future (actually, I plan on starting to write a book this coming month ((shameless plug)) ). But come on, let's just move on. There is nothing more that can be said (constructively). Let's talk about coins or continue this at theunderwater crocheting boards.
Have a wonderful Sunday all (especially my Faith filled friends)
<< <i>As soon as the Court finds in the Langbords favor, I think Carr should start churning out '33 Saints............ah, why wait? >>
No. That would be counterfeiting which is illegal. There are NO 1964-D Peace dollars but there are several 1933 Saints. But, I'm sure you already knew this and are just trying to stir the pot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>As soon as the Court finds in the Langbords favor, I think Carr should start churning out '33 Saints............ah, why wait? >>
No. That would be counterfeiting which is illegal. There are NO 1964-D Peace dollars but there are several 1933 Saints. But, I'm sure you already knew this and are just trying to stir the pot. >>
speaking of counterfeiting...
I seem to recall that some contemporary counterfeits were of dates or mm that the mint never made. The counterfeiter was unaware of this at the time the piece was made.
All collectors of contemporary counterfeits must immediately remove those types of "fantasy" pieces from their collection.
Using Mr Carr's explanation that his coin is an overstrike and not a counterfeit why is the 1944 no P Henning nickel not a fantasy coin since the mint did not make a no P nickel that year and the coin isn't made with silver.
If a "real" 1964 Peace Dollar shows up will the Carr Dollars be considered counterfeit?
<< <i>Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist. >>
Kind of ridiculous to put Not Authentic on something that doesn't exist. >>
Since there are no known 1964D Peace dollars that exist, Mr. Carr's altered coin is NOT AUTHENTIC.
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me. >>
I know this really upsets you. But why don't you take a few deep breaths and read what I posted. I said it was not about money, but was more emotional, which you seemed to support with your post. --jerry >>
I'm upset over nothing.
I am merely exercising my right to express my opinion.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems to me that some folks on the US Boards have too much time on their hands. >>
Isn't that the raison d'etre of a chatroom? >>
I'm going to have to go look that up.
Russ, NCNE
we cant talk back to our wives.
we dont understand electronics.
we cant argue and fight in public.
keyboards make us powerful.
we have time.
everyone needs an enemy. (for further information on THIS< read the "Report from Iron Mountain" (thanks bongobongo for showing me this)
<< <i>These Boards were designed for the enjoyment, enhancment and comraderie of coin collecting. >>
Actually, it's spelled camaraderie, but don't ask me why. "Comraderie" makes a little more sense to me, in English.
Pretty dime, Sumorada. I never thought I'd be impressed with a clad Roosevelt that wasn't a DCAM proof.
1) Increasing amount of counterfeit expensive coins the quality of which is steadily improving
2) The creeping "market acceptance" of coins which have been tampered with, doctored, etc.
a) Psychedelic colored PF IHCs
b) Wildly colored CBHs in MS 65 which appeared around 2004 and 2005, virtually all of which were slabbed and imo, effectively killed the
market for these coins in this grade. Although I need one for my type set and thing the series is an attractive one, I stopped looking for
one back in 2006 because of this.
c) Cleaned, AT'd bleached, etc. Bust $s, all but the most hideous of which IMO have been slabbed. Many of them have been net graded.
Unfortunately, with respect to this series, this has been going on for quite awhile. It took me eight years to find a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in
AU which I wanted for my collection for which I paid imo a reasonable price.
If someone wants to pay wild premiums for attractively toned Morgans, talk about e-bay, or collect something which doesn't interest me, that's fine because none of this affects me personally. However, if someone buys a coin in a series I collect because "it's pretty" -- even though it has been baked -- it does affect me personally because it influences what I have to pay for coins which I collect.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I knew it would happen.
1) Increasing amount of counterfeit expensive coins the quality of which is steadily improving
2) The creeping "market acceptance" of coins which have been tampered with, doctored, etc.
a) Psychedelic colored PF IHCs
b) Wildly colored CBHs in MS 65 which appeared around 2004 and 2005, virtually all of which were slabbed and imo, effectively killed the
market for these coins in this grade. Although I need one for my type set and thing the series is an attractive one, I stopped looking for
one back in 2006 because of this.
c) Cleaned, AT'd bleached, etc. Bust $s, all but the most hideous of which IMO have been slabbed. Many of them have been net graded.
Unfortunately, with respect to this series, this has been going on for quite awhile. It took me eight years to find a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in
AU which I wanted for my collection for which I paid imo a reasonable price.
If someone wants to pay wild premiums for attractively toned Morgans, talk about e-bay, or collect something which doesn't interest me, that's fine because none of this affects me personally. However, if someone buys a coin in a series I collect because "it's pretty" -- even though it has been baked -- it does affect me personally because it influences what I have to pay for coins which I collect.
Those are - seriously - all the reasons that people love to collect Modern Bullion.
I knew it would happen.
In all seriousness, I find this forum to be a great resource for both education & entertainment... its get polarized sometimes because that's way people all are... I enjoy reading opinions here even when I don't agree with them, and I am apt to readily offer mine when I have one without too much worry over what some folks may think of mine. I have observed that sometimes folks are apt to type things anonymously that they would never say face to face... I keep this grain of salt in mind whenever I see things getting heated... and on a personal note, my personal favorite aspect of participating in this forum is finding common ground with folks who are very different from myself & forging friendships.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go fire up the Porsche... I am supposed to meet a friend (she's a model) so we can talk about her starring in the music video for my new song.
>>>My Collection
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry
<< <i>What documentation or proof would be needed for someone to authenticate a real 1964-D Peace dollar? >>
Since there are none in existence, your question is moot.
<< <i>
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me.
<< <i>Knowledge is power. Those novices who would think the 1964 peace could be the real thing shouldn't be in the hobby.
How was that actual planchet or design altered?
All the scam company did was slap a sticker with POTUS' likeness on the coin.
1.) Counterfeit Argument
Although his 1964-D dated fantasy Peace Dollars say "United States of America" and "One Dollar" on them, they are not counterfeits, because they are over struck on genuine, legal tender U.S. currency.
2.) Forgery Argument
Because the governments official claim is that no genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars exist, the only way the same government could argue that his 1964-D fantasy coins are forgeries, would be to produce an original.
3.) Defacement Argument
United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, makes it illegal for anyone to FRAUDULENTLY deface U.S. coins... although many would argue that the mere existence of Daniel Carr's convincing 1964-D fantasy pieces is enough to constitute fraud, his own argument is that a.) he has only marketed these coins as being exactly what they are, b.) he states in his terms of each sale that they can only be resold with full-disclosure, and c.) he has furthermore taken steps to render them readily identifiable.
4.) Hobby Protection Act Argument
Per the Hobby Protection Act, all copies of genuine coins must be clearly identified on their surfaces as copies; Daniel Carr's argument for not following this procedure, is that one cannot make a copy of a coin that does not exist; (see forgery argument.)
You may not like these coins, you may even interpret the laws that pertain to them in a manner that would render them illegal... but personally, I find the debate to be key aspect of the coin's appeal.
In any case, Daniel Carr has hardly been clandestine about this issue, and thus far it looks like he has been able to proceed with his effort without any government interference, so perhaps the opinion of the government is that they are legal.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Knowledge is power. Those novices who would think the 1964 peace could be the real thing shouldn't be in the hobby.
How was that actual planchet or design altered?
All the scam company did was slap a sticker with POTUS' likeness on the coin. >>
many companies also plated them with different materials. The Mint issued a press release on it.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>These polarized threads polarize us. >>
I agree...but why are they so popular????
<< <i>Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
>>
Kind of ridiculous to put Not Authentic on something that doesn't exist.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>
<< <i>These polarized threads polarize us. >>
I agree...but why are they so popular????
Qualifications required to make a comment/response to these kinds of threads: Human being ~wetting finger and marking an imaginary line in the air~
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
What if I make a convincing 1890-O Barber Dime in MS64?
It shouldn't be a problem, right?
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is?
I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>These polarized threads polarize us. >>
I agree...but why are they so popular????
Because those that have bought these things want to convince others that they are smart and did the right thing.
If they truly didn't care what others thought of what they collect, they wouldn't need the threads to try to justify carr, this "coin", nor that they bought it.
That's the funny thing. I know that when I buy things, I may ask for some opinions of what others think, but at the end of the day, whether I underpaid/overpaid/justly paid, I am the one who wants to be happy with what I purchase and I ultimately don't care what others think ... it's my collection and not theirs.
Now, those that try to continue publicly justifying these, particularly when there are no (anti) threads, against them, running, are just pathetic, imho (those that bought them, and don't care about others, and aren't trying to convince everyone about them, aren't pathetic
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>seriously,
What if I make a convincing 1890-O Barber Dime in MS64?
It shouldn't be a problem, right? >>
As long as you don't put "COPY", I think there are some forum members that would buy many from you and then start a few hundred threads to convince others to do the same
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
Gary
<< <i>Just to recap, the Daniel Carr's legal argument is as follows:
1.) Counterfeit Argument
Although his 1964-D dated fantasy Peace Dollars say "United States of America" and "One Dollar" on them, they are not counterfeits, because they are over struck on genuine, legal tender U.S. currency.
2.) Forgery Argument
Because the governments official claim is that no genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars exist, the only way the same government could argue that his 1964-D fantasy coins are forgeries, would be to produce an original.
3.) Defacement Argument
United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, makes it illegal for anyone to FRAUDULENTLY deface U.S. coins... although many would argue that the mere existence of Daniel Carr's convincing 1964-D fantasy pieces is enough to constitute fraud, his own argument is that a.) he has only marketed these coins as being exactly what they are, b.) he states in his terms of each sale that they can only be resold with full-disclosure, and c.) he has furthermore taken steps to render them readily identifiable.
4.) Hobby Protection Act Argument
Per the Hobby Protection Act, all copies of genuine coins must be clearly identified on their surfaces as copies; Daniel Carr's argument for not following this procedure, is that one cannot make a copy of a coin that does not exist; (see forgery argument.)
You may not like these coins, you may even interpret the laws that pertain to them in a manner that would render them illegal... but personally, I find the debate to be key aspect of the coin's appeal.
In any case, Daniel Carr has hardly been clandestine about this issue, and thus far it looks like he has been able to proceed with his effort without any government interference, so perhaps the opinion of the government is that they are legal. >>
DCarr did his homework. I think the most egregious thing he could be accused of is perhaps "exlploiting a loophole" in the HPA.
It seems to me that those who take the position that the HPA requires a "copy" stamp for these coins have a weaker argument.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is?
I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them). >>
"Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep promoting the coin!"
..........most , if not all the posts I have made concerning the Fantasy Peace Dollar's are in response to negitive/ anti- D.Carr comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep condemning the coin! >>
Why? Why not blame those that keep starting threads trying to tell others how great this (non) coin is?
I don't see a lot of threads started by those against it. Just those trying to promote it as an actual coin (once it got overstruck it should lose any idea of respectability and for those that think otherwise, I shudder for them). >>
"Don't blame us, blame it on those that keep promoting the coin!"
..........most , if not all the posts I have made concerning the Fantasy Peace Dollar's are in response to negitive/ anti- D.Carr comments >>
Are those comments that you refer to ones that started threads themselves or just comments within threads started by promoters like you?
There is a difference there, and that difference is what I was talking about....please don't ignore that difference to justify yourself
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
every single post I made , every single thread I started , pertaining to the Fantasy Peace Dollars -
were all motivated by the negative attacks on Mr. Carr and / or his coins that I read here on these boards .
They were all prompted by the defense mode I found myself in for simply loving the coins and my purchasing them .
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!!;
edited for spelling.
Gary
<< <i>Bochiman, you and others are proving my point. You did not even take the time to read or respond to me last post. After all, I AM the OP.
All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining: 1arguement;
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!! >>
Dear OP Ocho. You must be going through harder times than most of us....I hope and pray you sit back and reflect on your accusations!!!
My advice: stop posting for a while......you are taking good people Bochiman to task for no reason!!!!!
Thanks Lord..M........I plucked it from a mint st a couple months ago, it;s a Top pop ms 68 ATS....very pretty in hand, tough to get a good pic....!
Edited to add.....what are these other folks talking about.....
<< <i>Bochiman, you and others are proving my point. You did not even take the time to read or respond to my last post. After all, I AM the OP.
All you want to do is argue, argue and argue!
I said in my earlier post (page 4);
As a Darksider (maybe, you couldn't tell from my screen name or avatar), I never bought nor plan to own a D. Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar. I started this thread to show how angry and vile some of you on the US Boards can be. Nothing intelligent comes from these threads, just a bunch of ranting. If throwing around your opinion (and that's ALL that it is) is what some of you are into, sounding like a bunch of authorities, I pity you. All I can say is (Thank you Barry Gibb);
I started a joke which started the whole board whining
Hello out there! Can't you guys just take a Valium or down a Stout and just CHILLOUT!!!;
edited for spelling. >>
No, I read the post. I didn't respond to it because there was nothing to respond to. I don't think my posts were attacks...they were noting, for clarification's sake, that Pawpaul, and others who are posting to defend these things, are the ones starting the threads and then whining when others post that they aren't really coins.
Same thing in the post above these, by Pawpaul where he says that all the threads he has started have been because of posts in other's threads (not ones they started) where folks didn't like these things. So, he really likes them. Good for him. However, because OTHER people have issues with them, he feels the need to start multiple threads defending them? Really? How insecure in collecting is that?
Like I have said....if you like collecting something, go for it. Why feel the need for validation?
I like SAEs. I like toned SAEs. Many don't like SAEs. Many don't like toned SAEs. I don't feel the need to start many threads defending them when others post how they don't like them.
I like moderns. Same thing applies.....I don't need others to justify my feelings.
It goes on and on. Collect what you like, enjoy what you collect, and to hell with how others feel on what you collect (I don't like exonumia or tokens or SCDs, but I know others collect them, and I don't think my feelings about them should convince others to collect them or not).
The issue with these things is very much, I believe, what others have posted....it comes down to greed and money. Potential resale. No one paid "melt" value for these. There was a HUGE premium to them. Even though some folks aren't thinking about money with them, I think that the majority of loud supporters wouldn't like it if, for some reason, their "investment" became only melt value for some reason, now would they?
(ps....Goldbully, thanks for your post just above....saw that and wanted to recognize it without just adding another post).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>o.k , I will clarify :
every single post I made , every single thread I started , pertaining to the Fantasy Peace Dollars -
were all motivated by the negative attacks on Mr. Carr and / or his coins that I read here on these boards .
They were all prompted by the defense mode I found myself in for simply loving the coins and my purchasing them . >>
Wow
I was waiting to hear...
"Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical"
I just assumed I was out there for a minute.
I like the Carr Peace Dollar Overstrikes too, and I don't go around saying that 3-Cent Nickels are ridiculous.
I like Platinum Eagles, but I don't make a point of ridiculing VAM collectors.
I buy my share of Proof Sets, Silver Proof Sets, Mint Sets, Presidential Dollar Proof Sets, and some other Moderns that may never "skyrocket to the Moon", and I may take a bath on some Large Cents that I buy.
I don't cover my eyes and snicker when a kid asks some dealer at a coin show if he has a 1918-D Lincoln in VG or better.
The point is, that the OP has a valid point. Too many seem to think that their way is the only way and that everyone else is an idiot. And that's too bad.
The point is, it's my collection and it's my call. Not anyone else's. Nobody needs to validate my bad judgement (or my slam dunks, either). <<End of rant.>>
Sumorada, that really is kind of a nice dime you got there!
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me. >>
I know this really upsets you. But why don't you take a few deep breaths and read what I posted. I said it was not about money, but was more emotional, which you seemed to support with your post. --jerry
Have a wonderful Sunday all (especially my Faith filled friends)
Gary
<< <i>As soon as the Court finds in the Langbords favor, I think Carr should start churning out '33 Saints............ah, why wait?
No. That would be counterfeiting which is illegal. There are NO 1964-D Peace dollars but there are several 1933 Saints. But, I'm sure you already knew this and are just trying to stir the pot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>As soon as the Court finds in the Langbords favor, I think Carr should start churning out '33 Saints............ah, why wait?
No. That would be counterfeiting which is illegal. There are NO 1964-D Peace dollars but there are several 1933 Saints. But, I'm sure you already knew this and are just trying to stir the pot.
speaking of counterfeiting...
I seem to recall that some contemporary counterfeits were of dates or mm that the mint never made. The counterfeiter was unaware of this at the time the piece was made.
All collectors of contemporary counterfeits must immediately remove those types of "fantasy" pieces from their collection.
If a "real" 1964 Peace Dollar shows up will the Carr Dollars be considered counterfeit?
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>If a "real" 1964 Peace Dollar shows up will the Carr Dollars be considered counterfeit? >>
No. The Secret Service will confiscated it and destroy it. Also, don't hold your breath waiting for one to show up.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
>>
Kind of ridiculous to put Not Authentic on something that doesn't exist. >>
Since there are no known 1964D Peace dollars that exist, Mr. Carr's altered coin is NOT AUTHENTIC.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The polarization comes from money mostly. For me collecting my coins is a fun secondary hobby. For others it is a business and livelihood. The name of the game is to make money. And those that make money do so on the backs of those who collect.
John >>
In the case of the 1964 peace dollar fantasy coin, I'd say it is just the opposite. Those who feel strongest about it have no monetary stake in it at all and they don't even seem to begrudge D Carr his profits. It is more emotional, like politics.
--Jerry >>
Wrong.
The fact that Mr. Carr altered a genuine Peace dollar, as he claims, is the very core of the problem. Like another poster stated once, if these were Chinese fakes, or altered coins, people would be crying foul.
How is what Mr. Carr accomplished, not a foul? He altered a genuine coin, and thank god the TPGs are NOT slabbing these fakes and adding more confusion to the whole mix of things.
Our hobby, or investment as some look at it, has enough counterfeits and fakes and scams going on to confuse an auditorium full of rookie collectors.
Mr. Carr has added to furor. His so called, and self proclaimed, "fantasy" piece should be marked accordingly, NOT AUTHENTIC, as there are no 1964D Peace dollars known to exist.
And I really don't care if anyone disagrees with me. >>
I know this really upsets you. But why don't you take a few deep breaths and read what I posted. I said it was not about money, but was more emotional, which you seemed to support with your post. --jerry >>
I'm upset over nothing.
I am merely exercising my right to express my opinion.
My opinion is these are altered junk.