<< <i> Nonsense....$$$ talks, bs walks....PCGS has graded numerous so called "faked coins" or now called "fantasy coins" that were never officially produced by the Mint. If D. Carr's coins ever reach the same value, PCGS will also slab them. >>
i really, really disagree...where's the "emotion" for that? what is your "same value" definition?"
there is integrity in the versions of these fantasy coins, in their description and i can't doubt Daniel's diligence in minting these to high standards.
BUT to put them in PCGS plastic does not sit well with me, regardless of the money/BS issue (which in all due respect i don't think there is one) i could see an air-tite as a way to carry it around as a pocket piece, beyond that nothing else. these fantasy coins aren't even blips on a radar to qualify for slabbing at PCGS.
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece.
From Rockosworld The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce.
The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them.
57loaded---What do you think of the Kellogg & Co. gold coin replicas made with melted gold bars recovered from the S.S. Central America? These were slabbed by PCGS. PCGS also slabbed a $10 Baldwin & Co. ("Horseman") gold coin with melted gold from the S. S. Cental America. All these coins had their design modified slightly so that they wouldn't have to be stamped with "COPY".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece. From Rockosworld The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce. From Ron Guth quote on Coinfacts The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them. >>
It might have something to do with the fact that actual US Mint dies were used to make these restrikes. The 1964-D Peace Dollars were not made from US Mint dies and therefore, are much different. You could relate these peace dollars to the "Kennedy" counterstamped on the pennies. They really are nothing more than a counterstamp and those, to the best of my knowledge, are not graded by PCGS.
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece. From Rockosworld The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce. From Ron Guth quote on Coinfacts The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them. >>
It might have something to do with the fact that actual US Mint dies were used to make these restrikes. The 1964-D Peace Dollars were not made from US Mint dies and therefore, are much different. You could relate these peace dollars to the "Kennedy" counterstamped on the pennies. They really are nothing more than a counterstamp and those, to the best of my knowledge, are not graded by PCGS. >>
I'd pay to have them certified, if for no other reason than to protect them, ease of storage, recognition as a fantasy piece, etc.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
<< <i>57loaded---What do you think of the Kellogg & Co. gold coin replicas made with melted gold bars recovered from the S.S. Central America? These were slabbed by PCGS. PCGS also slabbed a $10 Baldwin & Co. ("Horseman") gold coin with melted gold from the S. S. Cental America. All these coins had their design modified slightly so that they wouldn't have to be stamped with "COPY". >>
i honestly don't know, maybe PCGS can answer that one.
I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect >>
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect >>
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
>>
Define fake? Neither one is a coin... are you asking which one wasn't pressed by DCarr? The right one?
..never seen people opposed to PCGS slabbing a privately issued Fantasy piece before......with such ferocity ......
folks actively trying to keep PCGS from slabbing them ...... even if they don't own one, have no intention of slabbing one , or could care less about owning them .......
how is it if PCGS slabs them , it's any skin off of anyone's back ??
I'm in the middle-of-the-road. I like them, but I don't think they belong in a PCGS slab.
I wish DCarr would have placed a 'COPY' mark of any size anywhere on them... not doing so has created quite the divide. I think it was selfish to press these without 'COPY' on them. To me... yes, me... the ONLY reason why someone wouldn't place 'COPY' on these (aside from the Chinese counterfeiters) is to generate a false market for them. It worked brilliantly!
Edited to add: Ask yourself, if DCarr did place a 'COPY' on these (an ethics argument for the manufacturer and purchasers), would he have sold 1,963 of them?
consider these a work of art. Just received my matte proof in the mail today and it is stunning and high quality. I think it is the artistry and quality that separates these from any of the other examples that do have COPY written on them. I think plenty of points and difference have been made as to why COPY is not necessary, and realize a whole other camp will say differently. This is what makes the world go round and spurs the conversation. A few like to get their suspenders in a bunch over it and I think that energy is interesting when I read the posts. For goodness sake, any knowledgeable person in coins can easily tell these are not a genuine 1964 Peace Dollar and so you will not be seeing one at a major auction house for a million dollars (and if so, then the poo poo is on them). Conversely, the hypothetical situation of a novice buying one from a scammer, well the striking of this coin did not all of a sudden create crooks screwing their victims. Unfortunately it happens every day before our eyes. I just really find it all that unlikely, even 25-50 years ago the following scenario....."Hey there, I got this 1964 Peace Dollar that was in my Grandfather's cigar box, none have ever been reported and this is worth millions, but I will sell it to you for only $......" This is not somebody selling counterfeit 1895 Morgans, which DO EXIST, which are known amongst a prospective buyer, that people have seen with their own eyes and unfortunately can get swindled when presented with a fake because they know that real ones DO EXIST and this could be the real thing. The selling of a D Carr 1964 as the real thing is just a fantasy, just like the coin.
But to me, and what I really care about is the beauty of the coin and viewing it in my hand. To me this coin is numismatic art. I would not want a painting or an engraving with COPY stamped across the front. Talk about a blemish! You want a Morgan with a big gouge on her cheek??? So no, I would not have purchased examples if it did have COPY. But once again, it is an aesthetics thing to me and these pieces are beautiful.
I (dang it, a possessive pronoun) think it would lessen the PCGS brand if they were to start slabbing fantasy coins... just as I feel it would lessen their brand if they slabbed medals, tokens, gold dust, etc. Have they slab some of these in the past... yes, and I think it lessened their branding. Let NGC slab the esoteric. Do I collect these items... yes, but I prefer my coins to be in PCGS and my esoteric to be in NGC. Does NGC offer a good product... yes, so I'm happy with their place in my collection and I'm happy with PCGSs place in my collection.
I doubt anyone thinks the DCarr pieces aren't works of art... I doubt anyone thinks he didn't do a good job, artistically. I suspect those who take issue are taking issue with the lack of 'COPY' on these... and maybe the fact that "real" coins were destroyed in the making of these fantasy pieces - with none of the real coin in effect remaining. I suspect a lot of folk think it was a selfish, elitist act - with little to no concern to cause-and-effect. To my question of ethics, both for the manufacturer and the purchasers... if you ask yourself if you would have purchased them with 'COPY' and you answered no... you might see where the question of ethics lies.
<< <i>no - with a copy stamp on them , he wouldn't have sold 20 of them .
But you see the reality of the situation right ?
He sold over 1500 of them ; and there's no "copy" stamped anywhere on the coins ............,
and no one is in jail or being prosecuted by the law ......... >>
Just because something *may* be legal doesn't mean it's ethical, and just because something may seem ethical doesn't make it legal. The legality has little to do with the ethical argument for or against it.
I stand by what I said before: Authentic Mint-issued coins that are altered to change the date do not get into PCGS holders and never knowingly have, and that's exactly what this one is. I have no strong position on the legal or ethical argument here, but I don't think it's a good idea to grant "just this one" exception to the "no altered dates in PCGS holders" rule.
real coins were not destroyed , real coins were transformed into works of art .
transformed into fantasy coins with no attempt whatsoever by their creator to market them as anything but ........
and as for destroyed coins ..the smelting of U.S Silver dollars would be a far greater crusade to make a stand on if you feel that deeply .
if the making or buying of these fantasy coins boils down to ethics - then each of us are entitled to a set of our own , as it would be unethical to be judgmental of some one else's ethics .......
ethics : ( usually used with a singular verb ) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect >>
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
>>
Sign... please, I'm not talking about these small mom & pop amateur counterfeiters; I'm talking about the Chinese pro that owns his own minting press, and able to create die pair one, two, three to the perfect whatever die pair number that will yield another similar fantasy 64-D. The point is it's a matter of time before we see other versions of this fatasy peace from people that own a press just like D. Carr.
<< <i>no - with a copy stamp on them , he wouldn't have sold 20 of them.
<< <i>
Heaven forbid that mere statute interfere with profit.
<< <i>What is it you fellers hope to gain by pooping all over these marvelous discs of silver ????????? >>
Nothing to gain. Just think of it as a public service.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
We don't see anything good coming out of it in the future, so we would like to voice our objection.
I can relate to that ........... but if tiny little letters were stamped somewhere on the coins , it would be relatively easy with todays technology to remove them and mask most if not all traces
of having done so ....... like a fellow poster implied ; how many people in America are actively looking to buy a real 1964-D Dollar ?
99.9 % of them don't even know that Peace Dollars were minted for the last time in 1935 .
There are so very many travesties and injustices befalling mankind and mother earth ;
is it really worth all this time and energy to protect someone who someday might be swindled out of their money ?
I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said!
Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I think you'll find that most of those that object, have objected from the beginning... and that they could have bought all they wanted, but chose not to for personal reasons. Myself included.
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em.! >>
Your boat is not my boat.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I do not have the right to judge anyone's morals or ethics.......... >>
Sure, you do. You just don't feel it's ethical to do so according to your own moral code. You have a right to judge whatever you want; what you don't have is the right to expect others to agree. And I'm assuming we're talking only about legal activity, because I damn well will judge violent and thieving criminal acts as unethical and immoral.
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
If I go 80 in a 55... I've set a precedent. If I pay my mortgage on the last day of the month, but it's due on the 15th... I've set a precedent. If I have an affair... I've set a precedent.
My statement above is simpily noting that noone has been charged by the Secret Service for carving Hobo Nickels.
There seems to me anyway that what Dan has done is not alot different than what has been with HOBO Nickels. Both coins were real US COINS ALTERETED TO LOOK LIKE SOMETHINH ELSE. but they are still real coins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dan Carr altered real Peace Dollars and made them better ,,,,,,,,, countless others have altered Buffalo Nickels to make a design of their own personal liking which they sold at a profit. So again I ask the question,,,, has anyone ever been arrested for counterfitting HOBO NICKELS. I think not so therefore Dan should not be in any danger of prosecuation. He has only reengraved the metal on these coins,,much as the HOBO ARTISTS have and noone has put the HOBO GUYS in jail.
<< <i>I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
I always thought Kellogg, Baldwin, Wass Molitor, etc. were all private companies and in no way associated with the mint. That's why their coin designs could not exactly match federal issues. So a restrike of a Kellogg or Baldwin, et. al. would not be subject to counterfeiting laws whether with new or original dies.
Are we forgetting these things are counterfeit U.S. coins? I'm suggesting that might explain the reason Don Willis and gang aren't too excited at the prospect of putting their PCGS mark behind them.
Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand.
<< <i>Are we forgetting these things are counterfeit U.S. coins? I'm suggesting that might explain the reason Don Willis and gang aren't too excited at the prospect of putting their PCGS mark behind them.
Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand. >>
I don't think it's been firmly established that these are counterfeits. They are original $1 coins which have been modified to look like... gee, $1 coins. They are not made to look like $10 or $20 coins. There was one coin taken out of circulation to "make" each new one (actually, more than one was taken out per each coin "made" when mistakes/errors are counted in the tally).
Taking some new material and creating a lookalike $1 coin would be counterfeiting, but there are no new/additional coins being introduced to the current population of dollar coins.
Many agree that, although it is a fine legal line that has been skirted, the line has not been crossed.
<< <i>Are we forgetting these things are counterfeit U.S. coins? I'm suggesting that might explain the reason Don Willis and gang aren't too excited at the prospect of putting their PCGS mark behind them. Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand. >>
I don't think it's been firmly established that these are counterfeits. They are original $1 coins which have been modified to look like... gee, $1 coins. They are not made to look like $10 or $20 coins. There was one coin taken out of circulation to "make" each new one (actually, more than one was taken out per each coin "made" when mistakes/errors are counted in the tally). Taking some new material and creating a lookalike $1 coin would be counterfeiting, but there are no new/additional coins being introduced to the current population of dollar coins. Many agree that, although it is a fine legal line that has been skirted, the line has not been crossed. >>
Following your logic, an added mint mark is not counterfeit. You took a 1916 Mercury dime out of circulation and put a "D" on it. All is good, right?
Looks like these could attain Henning nickel status??? Perusing past Henning nickel threads, there's a consensus that they are cool, desireable, and have sold for good money (one respected seller on these very boards sold one for "$175, and the buyer would have paid more"). If you call these '64-D restrikes counterfeits, then someone explain why Henning nickels are a desireable item, while these are being damned. By going back and checking the Henning threads, some that don't mind that THOSE are counterfeit (or have a problem with them) are vehemently opposed to these '64-D restrikes, and have a serious problem with these 'fantasy restrikes'. How can one counterfeit (that WAS used to deceive in commerce) NOT be a problem, but a counterfeit (and I don't consider these '64-D restrikes counterfeits) that ISN'T being used to deceive in commerce, BE considered a problem???
All this talk about 'coins' not struck with mint dies being problematic to the hobby....here's a direct quote from one of the staunchest detractors of these '64-D restrikes"
"I guess the so-called "New Haven Restrike" Fugio cents squeak by because they are not legal tender U.S. coins. However, they ARE legally authorized U.S. coins. Totally grey area.
That said, I just looked at an 1823 "Restrike" U.S. large cent in a major TPG holder. Isn't that a counterfeit of a legal tender U.S. coin struck from genuine U.S. dies?
What about the 1804 "Restrike" large cents? Counterfeit legal tender U.S. coins struck from altered genuine U.S. dies.
Curiouser and curiouser. " Quote comes from this Henning thread.
These were genuine, legally issued, U.S. legal tender, struck with U.S. Mint dies, and merely struck over, not just blanks struck with newly made dies. They were never produced to be used for commerce....none of D. Carr's creations are made to be used in commerce, yet the Henning's WERE. Shouldn't there at the very LEAST be a 'grey area' on these '64-D restrikes, if not outright accepted, much like the Henning nickel, by collectors??? Ending prices on the ones being sold are telling the story, and the detractors, while being free to speak their mind, well, check ending prices in the secondary market...
<< <i>I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
I always thought Kellogg, Baldwin, Wass Molitor, etc. were all private companies and in no way associated with the mint. That's why their coin designs could not exactly match federal issues. So a restrike of a Kellogg or Baldwin, et. al. would not be subject to counterfeiting laws whether with new or original dies.
Cheers,
Bob >>
Good point. Those are not legal tender U.S. coin designs. A Peace dollar is.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
Nonsense....$$$ talks, bs walks....PCGS has graded numerous so called "faked coins" or now called "fantasy coins" that were never officially produced by the Mint. If D. Carr's coins ever reach the same value, PCGS will also slab them. >>
i really, really disagree...where's the "emotion" for that? what is your "same value" definition?"
there is integrity in the versions of these fantasy coins, in their description and i can't doubt Daniel's diligence in minting these to high standards.
BUT to put them in PCGS plastic does not sit well with me, regardless of the money/BS issue (which in all due respect i don't think there is one) i could see an air-tite as a way to carry it around as a pocket piece, beyond that nothing else. these fantasy coins aren't even blips on a radar to qualify for slabbing at PCGS.
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece.
From Rockosworld
The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce.
From Ron Guth quote on Coinfacts
The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece. From Rockosworld The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce. From Ron Guth quote on Coinfacts The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them. >>
It might have something to do with the fact that actual US Mint dies were used to make these restrikes. The 1964-D Peace Dollars were not made from US Mint dies and therefore, are much different. You could relate these peace dollars to the "Kennedy" counterstamped on the pennies. They really are nothing more than a counterstamp and those, to the best of my knowledge, are not graded by PCGS.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>good to see fake coins like this will not get into PCGS slabs >>
Tell me how the 1811 retrike half cent is not fake, yet are slabbed by PCGS. I am not advocating PCGS slab the 64-D Peace dollars, just trying to find out why some "fake" coins are allowed and others are not. It appears that the 1811 restrike HC is also a fantasy piece. From Rockosworld The 1811 was recognized by early collectors as tough, which helps to explain the restrike of the 1811, which is believed to be the work of Joseph J. Mickley, who was active at the time buying old dies as scrap and then using them to make restrikes. The problem was the obverse and reverse did not match. The obverse is 1811, but the reverse is of 1802. The restrikes, however, are desirable and scarce. From Ron Guth quote on Coinfacts The 1811 Mickley "Restrike" is not a proper restrike in that no Half Cent combining an 1811 obverse and an 1802 reverse was ever made. Rather, this coin was made outside the mint from old dies that had been purchased from the Mint by Joseph J. Mickley in 1816. Mickley created a variety of interesting, fantastic mules using his collection of mismatched dies. His estate, including his coin dies, was offered for sale in 1878 by Moses Thomas & Sons. Before the sale took place, the U.S. Mint repurchased (some say confiscated) the dies and destroyed them. >>
It might have something to do with the fact that actual US Mint dies were used to make these restrikes. The 1964-D Peace Dollars were not made from US Mint dies and therefore, are much different. You could relate these peace dollars to the "Kennedy" counterstamped on the pennies. They really are nothing more than a counterstamp and those, to the best of my knowledge, are not graded by PCGS. >>
Good answer. Thank you.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>57loaded---What do you think of the Kellogg & Co. gold coin replicas made with melted gold bars recovered from the S.S. Central America? These were slabbed by PCGS. PCGS also slabbed a $10 Baldwin & Co. ("Horseman") gold coin with melted gold from the S. S. Cental America. All these coins had their design modified slightly so that they wouldn't have to be stamped with "COPY". >>
i honestly don't know, maybe PCGS can answer that one.
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example
Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example
Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
Define fake? Neither one is a coin... are you asking which one wasn't pressed by DCarr? The right one?
folks actively trying to keep PCGS from slabbing them ...... even if they don't own one, have no intention of slabbing one , or could care less about owning them .......
how is it if PCGS slabs them , it's any skin off of anyone's back ??
these coins bring out such powerful emotions
never seen nothin' like it
I wish DCarr would have placed a 'COPY' mark of any size anywhere on them... not doing so has created quite the divide. I think it was selfish to press these without 'COPY' on them. To me... yes, me... the ONLY reason why someone wouldn't place 'COPY' on these (aside from the Chinese counterfeiters) is to generate a false market for them. It worked brilliantly!
Edited to add: Ask yourself, if DCarr did place a 'COPY' on these (an ethics argument for the manufacturer and purchasers), would he have sold 1,963 of them?
But you see the reality of the situation right ?
He sold over 1500 of them ; and there's no "copy" stamped anywhere on the coins ............,
and no one is in jail or being prosecuted by the law .........
What you got is a bunch of ecstatic folks that treasure their pieces and simply want a real good way to store and display them
why the continued debate and the search for tar buckets and bird feathers ?
There are many things in this world I disagree with or think unjust ........but I don't usually go on a personal campaign to voice my objections ;
unless I have something to gain by it ........
What is it you fellers hope to gain by pooping all over these marvelous discs of silver ?????????
<< <i>apparently their moral ethics outweigh the dollars and cents >>
You make that sound like a bad thing....I think it is a good thing though.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
But to me, and what I really care about is the beauty of the coin and viewing it in my hand. To me this coin is numismatic art. I would not want a painting or an engraving with COPY stamped across the front. Talk about a blemish! You want a Morgan with a big gouge on her cheek??? So no, I would not have purchased examples if it did have COPY. But once again, it is an aesthetics thing to me and these pieces are beautiful.
I (dang it, a possessive pronoun) think it would lessen the PCGS brand if they were to start slabbing fantasy coins... just as I feel it would lessen their brand if they slabbed medals, tokens, gold dust, etc. Have they slab some of these in the past... yes, and I think it lessened their branding. Let NGC slab the esoteric. Do I collect these items... yes, but I prefer my coins to be in PCGS and my esoteric to be in NGC. Does NGC offer a good product... yes, so I'm happy with their place in my collection and I'm happy with PCGSs place in my collection.
I doubt anyone thinks the DCarr pieces aren't works of art... I doubt anyone thinks he didn't do a good job, artistically. I suspect those who take issue are taking issue with the lack of 'COPY' on these... and maybe the fact that "real" coins were destroyed in the making of these fantasy pieces - with none of the real coin in effect remaining. I suspect a lot of folk think it was a selfish, elitist act - with little to no concern to cause-and-effect. To my question of ethics, both for the manufacturer and the purchasers... if you ask yourself if you would have purchased them with 'COPY' and you answered no... you might see where the question of ethics lies.
<< <i>no - with a copy stamp on them , he wouldn't have sold 20 of them .
But you see the reality of the situation right ?
He sold over 1500 of them ; and there's no "copy" stamped anywhere on the coins ............,
and no one is in jail or being prosecuted by the law ......... >>
Just because something *may* be legal doesn't mean it's ethical, and just because something may seem ethical doesn't make it legal. The legality has little to do with the ethical argument for or against it.
I stand by what I said before: Authentic Mint-issued coins that are altered to change the date do not get into PCGS holders and never knowingly have, and that's exactly what this one is. I have no strong position on the legal or ethical argument here, but I don't think it's a good idea to grant "just this one" exception to the "no altered dates in PCGS holders" rule.
<< <i>What is it you fellers hope to gain by pooping all over these marvelous discs of silver ????????? >>
Nothing to gain, nada amigo. We don't see anything good coming out of it in the future, so we would like to voice our objection.
transformed into fantasy coins with no attempt whatsoever by their creator to market them as anything but ........
and as for destroyed coins ..the smelting of U.S Silver dollars would be a far greater crusade to make a stand on if you feel that deeply .
if the making or buying of these fantasy coins boils down to ethics - then each of us are entitled to a set of our own , as it would be unethical to be judgmental of some one else's ethics .......
ethics : ( usually used with a singular verb ) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of
the motives and ends of such actions.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm eagerly await the time when this 64-D gets moon money; those Chinese counterfeiters will start to employ the exact method to produce their own version of this so called "fantasy pieces"... hey it's good right! You guys will have another variety to collect
All of the other chinese counterfeits of DCarr's pieces have been so accurate.
The Mr. Bill "Roller" for example
Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake?
Sign... please, I'm not talking about these small mom & pop amateur counterfeiters; I'm talking about the Chinese pro that owns his own minting press, and able to create die pair one, two, three to the perfect whatever die pair number that will yield another similar fantasy 64-D. The point is it's a matter of time before we see other versions of this fatasy peace from people that own a press just like D. Carr.
<< <i>no - with a copy stamp on them , he wouldn't have sold 20 of them.
<< <i>
Heaven forbid that mere statute interfere with profit.
<< <i>What is it you fellers hope to gain by pooping all over these marvelous discs of silver ????????? >>
Nothing to gain. Just think of it as a public service.
I can relate to that ........... but if tiny little letters were stamped somewhere on the coins , it would be relatively easy with todays technology to remove them and mask most if not all traces
of having done so ....... like a fellow poster implied ; how many people in America are actively looking to buy a real 1964-D Dollar ?
99.9 % of them don't even know that Peace Dollars were minted for the last time in 1935 .
There are so very many travesties and injustices befalling mankind and mother earth ;
is it really worth all this time and energy to protect someone who someday might be swindled out of their money ?
<< <i>...as it would be unethical to be judgmental of some one else's ethics ....... >>
What? Really? Sorry, I must be one of a few to disagree
by definition anyone buying , trading for , or obtaining one would be committing a criminal act
......you fellers are then supporting the protection of a criminal
<< <i>It is illegal to buy, own , or possess a genuine 1964-D Peace Dollar ..........
by definition anyone buying , trading for , or obtaining one would be committing a criminal act
......you fellers are then supporting the protection of a criminal >>
I have no idea what you're talking about!
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I think your strong feeling may be very wrong.
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I think you'll find that most of those that object, have objected from the beginning... and that they could have bought all they wanted, but chose not to for personal reasons. Myself included.
Patience.
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em.! >>
Your boat is not my boat.
<< <i>I do not have the right to judge anyone's morals or ethics.......... >>
Sure, you do. You just don't feel it's ethical to do so according to your own moral code. You have a right to judge whatever you want; what you don't have is the right to expect others to agree. And I'm assuming we're talking only about legal activity, because I damn well will judge violent and thieving criminal acts as unethical and immoral.
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I am with pawpaul on this one... I have a strong feeling that most of the negitive comments about these coins are coming from people who missed the boat on em. PCGS slabs all sorts of old quote " fantasy " coins that were made by individuals just like DCarr! They did it with original dies yes but it wasn't a US mint product. Enough said! >>
I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
If I go 80 in a 55... I've set a precedent. If I pay my mortgage on the last day of the month, but it's due on the 15th... I've set a precedent. If I have an affair... I've set a precedent.
It's bad logic and a poor argument.
How is the 1964-D Peace Dollar really any different than a Hobo Nickel? Has anyone ever been prosecuted for carving a Hobo Nickel?
GrandAm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My statement above is simpily noting that noone has been charged by the Secret Service for carving Hobo Nickels.
There seems to me anyway that what Dan has done is not alot different than what has been with HOBO Nickels. Both coins were real US COINS ALTERETED TO LOOK LIKE SOMETHINH ELSE. but they are still real coins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dan Carr altered real Peace Dollars and made them better ,,,,,,,,, countless others have altered Buffalo Nickels to make a design of their own personal liking which they sold at a profit. So again I ask the question,,,, has anyone ever been arrested for counterfitting HOBO NICKELS. I think not so therefore Dan should not be in any danger of prosecuation. He has only reengraved the metal on these coins,,much as the HOBO ARTISTS have and noone has put the HOBO GUYS in jail.
Is the reason PCGS exists a grey area ?
........was it created to provide customers with a desired service
.............or was it created to be a money making enterprise ?
Is Collectors Universe a company with it's focus on profit margins and accountability to it's shareholders
.......... or is it a business with a bottom line dictated by morals and ethics ?
with the purpose of providing collectors with safe, long term storage of what it is they desire to collect .
<< <i>I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
I always thought Kellogg, Baldwin, Wass Molitor, etc. were all private companies and in no way associated with the mint. That's why their coin designs could not exactly match federal issues. So a restrike of a Kellogg or Baldwin, et. al. would not be subject to counterfeiting laws whether with new or original dies.
Cheers,
Bob
Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand.
Auction
<< <i>Are we forgetting these things are counterfeit U.S. coins? I'm suggesting that might explain the reason Don Willis and gang aren't too excited at the prospect of putting their PCGS mark behind them.
Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand.
I don't think it's been firmly established that these are counterfeits. They are original $1 coins which have been modified to look like... gee, $1 coins.
They are not made to look like $10 or $20 coins. There was one coin taken out of circulation to "make" each new one (actually, more than one was taken out per each coin "made" when mistakes/errors are counted in the tally).
Taking some new material and creating a lookalike $1 coin would be counterfeiting, but there are no new/additional coins being introduced to the current population of dollar coins.
Many agree that, although it is a fine legal line that has been skirted, the line has not been crossed.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are we forgetting these things are counterfeit U.S. coins? I'm suggesting that might explain the reason Don Willis and gang aren't too excited at the prospect of putting their PCGS mark behind them. Why don't you ask him? He's around here, I understand.
I don't think it's been firmly established that these are counterfeits. They are original $1 coins which have been modified to look like... gee, $1 coins. They are not made to look like $10 or $20 coins. There was one coin taken out of circulation to "make" each new one (actually, more than one was taken out per each coin "made" when mistakes/errors are counted in the tally). Taking some new material and creating a lookalike $1 coin would be counterfeiting, but there are no new/additional coins being introduced to the current population of dollar coins. Many agree that, although it is a fine legal line that has been skirted, the line has not been crossed. >>
Following your logic, an added mint mark is not counterfeit. You took a 1916 Mercury dime out of circulation and put a "D" on it. All is good, right?
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>Many agree that, although it is a fine legal line that has been skirted, the line has not been crossed. >>
Think of what the FBI would call one of these if they were to find one in circulation. There's you answer...
Like "cool coin"? or "what kind of idiot would spend this?"
<< <i>How is the 1964-D Peace Dollar really any different than a Hobo Nickel? Has anyone ever been prosecuted for carving a Hobo Nickel? >>
Actually, there was an at least temporary legal crackdown on such things, if you look at the history of the Hoboken nickels.
<< <i>Think of what the FBI would call one of these if they were to find one in circulation. There's you answer... >>
<< <i> "cool coin"? or "what kind of idiot would spend this?" >>
Ya know, you're probably right. I guess that means the coins are OK, then.
PS: Need I add, duh?
EDIT: What are these things selling for? I'm just wondering.
<< <i>on a side note, check out this auction.
Auction >>
Looks like these could attain Henning nickel status??? Perusing past Henning nickel threads, there's a consensus that they are cool, desireable, and have sold for good money (one respected seller on these very boards sold one for "$175, and the buyer would have paid more"). If you call these '64-D restrikes counterfeits, then someone explain why Henning nickels are a desireable item, while these are being damned. By going back and checking the Henning threads, some that don't mind that THOSE are counterfeit (or have a problem with them) are vehemently opposed to these '64-D restrikes, and have a serious problem with these 'fantasy restrikes'. How can one counterfeit (that WAS used to deceive in commerce) NOT be a problem, but a counterfeit (and I don't consider these '64-D restrikes counterfeits) that ISN'T being used to deceive in commerce, BE considered a problem???
All this talk about 'coins' not struck with mint dies being problematic to the hobby....here's a direct quote from one of the staunchest detractors of these '64-D restrikes"
"I guess the so-called "New Haven Restrike" Fugio cents squeak by because they are not legal tender U.S. coins.
However, they ARE legally authorized U.S. coins. Totally grey area.
That said, I just looked at an 1823 "Restrike" U.S. large cent in a major TPG holder.
Isn't that a counterfeit of a legal tender U.S. coin struck from genuine U.S. dies?
What about the 1804 "Restrike" large cents? Counterfeit legal tender U.S. coins struck from altered genuine U.S. dies.
Curiouser and curiouser. " Quote comes from this Henning thread.
These were genuine, legally issued, U.S. legal tender, struck with U.S. Mint dies, and merely struck over, not just blanks struck with newly made dies. They were never produced to be used for commerce....none of D. Carr's creations are made to be used in commerce, yet the Henning's WERE. Shouldn't there at the very LEAST be a 'grey area' on these '64-D restrikes, if not outright accepted, much like the Henning nickel, by collectors??? Ending prices on the ones being sold are telling the story, and the detractors, while being free to speak their mind, well, check ending prices in the secondary market...
<< <i>
<< <i>I gave two examples of recently privately made coins with newly manufactured dies (Kellogg & Co $50 gold and Baldwin & Co $10 gold coins) that were slabbed by PCGS, so there is definitely a precedent. That said, PCGS has every right to decline to slab any coin of its choosing. >>
I always thought Kellogg, Baldwin, Wass Molitor, etc. were all private companies and in no way associated with the mint. That's why their coin designs could not exactly match federal issues. So a restrike of a Kellogg or Baldwin, et. al. would not be subject to counterfeiting laws whether with new or original dies.
Cheers,
Bob >>
Good point. Those are not legal tender U.S. coin designs.
A Peace dollar is.