Please define (bad) coin doctoring.

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 8:24AM

Please define (bad) coin doctoring.

We can't stamp it out if we don't know what it is.

Rampage · January 10, 2011 8:42AM

Definitions of bad on the Web:

•having undesirable or negative qualities; "a bad report card"; "his sloppy appearance made a bad impression"; "a bad little boy"; "clothes in bad shape"; "a bad cut"; "bad luck"; "the news was very bad"; "the reviews were bad"; "the pay is bad"; "it was a bad light for reading"; "the movie was a ...
•very intense; "a bad headache"; "in a big rage"; "had a big (or bad) shock"; "a bad earthquake"; "a bad storm"
•feeling physical discomfort or pain (`tough' is occasionally used colloquially for `bad'); "my throat feels bad"; "she felt bad all over"; "he was feeling tough after a restless night"
•(of foodstuffs) not in an edible or usable condition; "bad meat"; "a refrigerator full of spoilt food"
•regretful: feeling or expressing regret or sorrow or a sense of loss over something done or undone; "felt regretful over his vanished youth"; "regretful over mistakes she had made"; "he felt bad about breaking the vase"
•not capable of being collected; "a bad (or uncollectible) debt"
•below average in quality or performance; "a bad chess player"; "a bad recital"
•nonstandard; "so-called bad grammar"
•not financially safe or secure; "a bad investment"; "high risk investments"; "anything that promises to pay too much can't help being risky"; "speculative business enterprises"
•physically unsound or diseased; "has a bad back"; "a bad heart"; "bad teeth"; "an unsound limb"; "unsound teeth"
•capable of harming; "bad air"; "smoking is bad for you"
•characterized by wickedness or immorality; "led a very bad life"
•badly: with great intensity (`bad' is a nonstandard variant for `badly'); "the injury hurt badly"; "the buildings were badly shaken"; "it hurts bad"; "we need water bad"
•reproduced fraudulently; "like a bad penny..."; "a forged twenty dollar bill"
•badly: very much; strongly; "I wanted it badly enough to work hard for it"; "the cables had sagged badly"; "they were badly in need of help"; "he wants a bicycle so bad he can taste it"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 8:46AM

Toning coins by using chemicals, heat or anything other than old man time.

llafoe · January 10, 2011 8:46AM

Define all the actions of a coin doctor, create a poll(s) asking which are bad and which are acceptable... then you'll have a consensus, at least on the PCGS Coin Forum.

Studio60 · January 10, 2011 8:52AM

Coin doctoring is like pornography, difficult to define yet you know it when you see it.

kurtdog · January 10, 2011 8:53AM

<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring.

We can't stamp it out if we don't know what it is. >>

I'm shocked that this is the first time that evidently occurred to you. Nobody can define "coin doctoring" in any half-way intelligible way, how do you expect us to be able to define "bad coin doctoring?"

Oh, what the heck, see if this holds you. Bad coin doctoring is when you do it, good coin doctoring is when somebody like NCS does it. To further differentiate the two, the former is called "cleaning," while the latter is called "conserving." It's like "gambling" and "gaming." It's gambling when you have the poker game in your house, but gaming when it's in the poker room in the casino.

How'd I do?

dragon · January 10, 2011 8:56AM

<<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive.

COINB0Y · January 10, 2011 8:59AM

When the Coin Doctor gets caught.

dbcoin · January 10, 2011 9:02AM

I don't know who ANACONDA is, but can someone tell me if he is one of the plaintiffs in the PCGS lawsuit? Or closely affiliated like that stooge Gary Carlson?

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 9:06AM

<< <<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive. >>

That's pretty clear, to me anyway.

tahoe98 · January 10, 2011 9:06AM

...OUCH! dbcoin.

coinguy1 · January 10, 2011 9:06AM

<< I don't know who ANACONDA is, but can someone tell me if he is one of the plaintiffs in the PCGS lawsuit? Or closely affiliated like that stooge Gary Carlson? >>

Did you mean "defendants" rather than "plaintiffs"? Regardless, he is a coin dealer. And, to my knowledge, has no association with any of the defendants. Nor is he in favor of coin doctoring, the type of which has been alleged in the lawsuit.

RedTiger · January 10, 2011 9:10AM

There are some obviously "bad" forms of doctoring such as:
* painting on artificial frost to simulate a cameo appearance
* adding foreign substances to the surface of a coin, such as putty, to hide or lessen flaws like bag marks
* adding metal or other material to simulate full features such as a full head on a SLQ
* removing metal with a fine tool, or using a laser to accentuate details such as FSB on a Winged Liberty Dime

Any of the above are not acceptable, even if experts might fail at times to detect the alterations. I can not see very many reasonable hobbyists defending the above actions.

There are actions where folks may disagree, where many coins are deemed market acceptable to some hobbyists, such as dipping and accelerated toning.

PawPaul · January 10, 2011 9:10AM

......the simplest way to answer your question ;

" Bad coin doctoring is doctoring that is not good "

Studio60 · January 10, 2011 9:11AM

<< 

<< <<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive. >>

That's pretty clear, to me anyway. >>

What about that quick dip to remove PVC residue? The coin is then altered from its original appearance by removing a small layer of it.
Isn't there "good deception" vs "bad deception"? (I know that appears counterintuitive on the face of it.)

Tdec1000 · January 10, 2011 9:12AM

All coin doctoring is bad.... coin preservation and conservation is good.

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 9:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< <<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive. >>

That's pretty clear, to me anyway. >>

What about that quick dip to remove PVC residue? The coin is then altered from its original appearance by removing a small layer of it.
Isn't there "good deception" vs "bad deception"? (I know that appears counterintuitive on the face of it.) >>

I don't know how to answer your question other than to just say--No, because I've never considered dipping a coin with the clear intent of deceiving anyone.

19Lyds · January 10, 2011 9:15AM

<< <<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive. >>

I need to add "into thinking its a higher value coin than it really is."

I've never met you Adrian but I like where you're going with this stuff. Education is a key defense in recognizing doctored coins.

Studio60 · January 10, 2011 9:18AM

<< All coin doctoring is bad.... coin preservation and conservation is good. >>

What methods do you personally use to conserve your coins? How do you then preserve them?
If the exact same methods you use to conserve your coins is done by another who has also performed the same conservation on hundreds of others; is considered an expert at it, and charges collectors for his service, what would you label him?

WWW · January 10, 2011 9:28AM

Crazy is to doctoring as eccentric is to conservation.

mgoodm3 · January 10, 2011 9:32AM

<< <<< Please define (bad) coin doctoring. >>>

Anyone who purposely alters a coin in any way with the clear intent to deceive. >>

This is a fine definition and all, but any definition that can't be put into objective use won't be useful for enforcement.

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 9:36AM

I've never met you Adrian but I like where you're going with this stuff. Education is a key defense in recognizing doctored coins.

Thank you, and yes, we're all against bad anything......by definition....and "coin doctoring" is like "terroristic activities".....seemingly bad by definition (unless your country is the one dropping the bombs).

But just what is (bad) coin doctoring?

Anything done with "intent to deceive"?

OK, I have a Franklin Half. It's been in a mint sealed envelope since 1949. I just opened the mint sealed envelope and the coin is almost untoned but does have a faint haze on it. I bring it to a learned numismatist and friend. I want him to remove the haze so it will fit into my collection of white Franklins.

He applies a solution with my permission that removes the haze and is able to completey remove the solution and stop the reaction of the solution on the coin.

I show it to new collector, a friend, who says "Wow, it looks just like the day it was minted, what a special coin....how much?"

I give him a high price and he buys it.

So, because I had it cleaned without an intent to deceive, it's ok for me to not reveal that I just had it cleaned......to my friend? What if the friend finds out that you had the coin cleaned but didn't tell him?

dbcoin · January 10, 2011 9:36AM

Google is your friend, here is the Readers Digest version (my thoughts, questions in braces)

Adrian Crane - Anaconda rare coins - specializing in monster "toned" coins (curious, AT or NT?)
sold business, bugged out to Costa Rica (seems odd)
Now back in the states possibly in CO (why come back?)
asking lots o questions about coin doctoring (I think the sniffer will know if they are AT or NT)
will be starting up a website on ediblecoins (I guess those chocolate filled gold ones...mmmm chocolate) (seems harmless)

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 9:43AM

<< Google is your friend, here is the Readers Digest version (my thoughts, questions in braces) MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS...

Adrian Crane - Anaconda rare coins - specializing in monster "toned" coins (curious, AT or NT?) DEALT ONLY IN COINS GRADED BY PCGS AND NGC, BOTH WHO GUARENTEED COINS WERE NOT AT
sold business, bugged out to Costa Rica (seems odd) EVER BEEN THERE.....????
Now back in the states possibly in CO (why come back?) PM ME AND I WILL TELL YOU....THIS IS A COIN BOARD
asking lots o questions about coin doctoring (I think the sniffer will know if they are AT or NT) FOR EVERYONE'S SAKE, I HOPE SO
will be starting up a website on ediblecoins (I guess those chocolate filled gold ones...mmmm chocolate) (seems harmless) >>

NOW YOU HAVE ME THINKING ABOUT CHOCOLATE....MMMMMMM......CHOCOLATE........(AND SOME OF MY DETRACTORS WOULD SAY YOU GOT ME THINKING ABOUT BRACES....)

ormandh · January 10, 2011 9:45AM

Coin doctoring, I would assume, is when someone changes and/or alters the surface of a coin in order to misrepresent the coins grade or true attributes(ie. date, mintmark, variety, etc...) Conservation is something different altogether. When someone dips a coin in acetone to get rid of pvc or contaminants, I personally would categorize this as conservation. Dipping a coin in an acidic base to remove toning, although questionable, COULD be considered conservation as long as the person doing so knows what they are doing(I am guessing anyway). A coin doctor does anything to change the surface of a coin to dupe the buyer(s) into thinking what they have is actually something which it is not. ie. puttying, changing the mintmark, artificially toning by baking or any artifcial means, etc... -Dan

dbcoin · January 10, 2011 9:49AM

I said (my thoughts, questions in braces)

maybe to make it more clear I should have said

(my thoughts and/or questions in braces)

You said : DEALT ONLY IN COINS GRADED BY PCGS AND NGC, BOTH WHO GUARANTEED COINS WERE NOT AT

I think we all know now that the TPG's could have been deceived. Are you saying you only sold coins that were already graded or that you sent in raw monster "toned" coins that came back as graded? If raw, how many of those would pass the sniffer today and how many have turned?

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 10:02AM

This discussion reminds me of the world's shortest poem my Muhammad Ali. Anyways, moving right along.....

Are you saying you only sold coins that were already graded or that you sent in raw monster "toned" coins that came back as graded?

I probably have sent in less than 10 coins since 1986. It wasn't my thing, so, in sum, almost all the coins that I bought were already graded.

If raw, how many of those would pass the sniffer today and how many have turned?

I have done extensive research, actually kidnapping all past buyers of my coins, torturing them until they gave me the information you ask, and it has been revealed to me that 99.98769873547% of all my coins are within three standard deviations of "original", as I define it.

Unfortunately, while we now have that information, I am facing 4,968 life sentences for kidnapping and collector bashing. I'm a good attorney, so I'll probably not serve much more than 4,000 years.

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 10:12AM

Here's an idea for you.....start a thread entitled "Have any coins you bought from the Anaconda, changed substantially in appearance, in the holder?"

My suspicions are that you will at least get to see pictures of a "purdy" common date Peace dollar that was (temporarily) in an NGC holder.....the most famous common date Peace dollar known to man. (And I can probably Tell you who most assuraDly, will post the image of the aforementioNed coin.)

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 10:28AM

Please tell us more about that Peace Dollar.
I'd like to hear the entire story.

jesbroken · January 10, 2011 10:43AM

To date, coin doctoring covers a full spectrum of manipulation of a coin thru puttying, mint mark removal/addition, counterfeiting, ATing or even dipping, all of which is "bad" to most collector's mindsets. I would think once you describe these activities as coin doctoring, bad coin doctoring would be when the putty comes loose, or the mint mark falls off, or the counterfeit coin is obvious, or the lustre of the coin disappears from being overdipped, or even when the coin becomes so ugly from artificial toning that it is totally unacceptable.
To really get a grasp on the coin doctoring terminology, one should first find what is truly market acceptable. If a slight dip is ok, or placing a coin in an old Wayte Raymond coin board is acceptable to marginalize toning or whatever has become acceptable by a majority of coin collectors, then these practices might need be removed from the "coin doctoring" stigma or remove the more harsh practices from under this umbrella.
I feel, and do not personally condone these practices, that their are a large number of collectors who do not feel damaged by the minor practices and therefore when the term "coin doctor" is thrown out, immediate thought is of puttying, mintmark manipulation, and/or counterfeiting not dipping or light ATing. We all have seen many AT'd coins in holders of any of the TPG's. It has been stated on this forum and other forums that the tpg's lightly dip coins(whether this is true or not, I cannot vouch for either way). The point is that we as a society of coin collectors/dealers need to decide as a group what we will accept and what we will not. Any thing else is just talk with nothing to back it up. Why not a major poll asking these questions in order to get thousands of responses not just 34 or so.
This are just some thoughts along this line and are solely mine and will, hopefull be accepted as they were meant to be, just an opinion.
Jim

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 10:49AM

<< Please tell us more about that Peace Dollar.
I'd like to hear the entire story. >>

Yes, of course you would.

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 12:02PM

<< 

<< Please tell us more about that Peace Dollar.
I'd like to hear the entire story. >>

Yes, of course you would. >>

With all due respect, you opened the door, didn't you?

nankraut · January 10, 2011 12:13PM

studio60 said: "What about that quick dip to remove PVC residue? The coin is then altered from its original appearance by removing a small layer of it."
"Isn't there "good deception" vs "bad deception"? (I know that appears counterintuitive on the face of it.)"

Well now....let's think about this. A coin, as originally struck and released by the mint, certainly did not have PVC residue. Removing PVC residue from a coin is not "doctoring", IMHO. It's like removing dirt, or chewing gum, etal.

I like the phrase "altering the appearance with clear intent to deceive", as a description of "doctoring".

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 12:17PM

I would have opened the door, were this a court of law and had I had a motion in limone on file requiring the opposing side to not bring up the peace dollar, however, this is not a court of law, and quite frankly, while I know a quite a bit about "the Peace Dollar", there are probably other members of this forum who could tell the story better (i.e. with more enjoyment) than I could.

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 12:30PM

<< I would have opened the door, were this a court of law and had I had a motion in limone on file requiring the opposing side to not bring up the peace dollar, however, this is not a court of law, and quite frankly, while I know a quite a bit about "the Peace Dollar", there are probably other members of this forum who could tell the story better (i.e. with more enjoyment) than I could. >>

I wasn't looking for pure enjoyment nor speculation by others, just the part about "the Peace Dollar" that you "know quite a bit about", since you brought it up.
However, it appears to me that you have no intention of doing so.

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 1:47PM

<< 

<< I would have opened the door, were this a court of law and had I had a motion in limine on file requiring the opposing side to not bring up the peace dollar, however, this is not a court of law, and quite frankly, while I know a quite a bit about "the Peace Dollar", there are probably other members of this forum who could tell the story better (i.e. with more enjoyment) than I could. >>

I wasn't looking for pure enjoyment nor speculation by others, just the part about "the Peace Dollar" that you "know quite a bit about", since you brought it up.
However, it appears to me that you have no intention of doing so. >>

I tell you what I will do. I will PM you the thread. I don't have any images of the coin to share with you.

mrcoin3 · January 10, 2011 1:55PM

Thanks. I appreciate that. I've seen the image so no problem.
Waiting for the PM

ANACONDA · January 10, 2011 1:55PM

PM sent.

ricko · January 10, 2011 11:54PM

"asking lots o questions about coin doctoring (I think the sniffer will know if they are AT or NT)"

dbcoin... the sniffer will NOT determine AT or NT.... unless some very foreign substances were applied to achieve the tarnish. Using standard techniques, the sniffer will bless the AT coins.

Cheers, RickO

kurtdog · January 11, 2011 12:12AM

<< I would have opened the door, were this a court of law and had I had a motion in limone on file requiring the opposing side to not bring up the peace dollar, however, this is not a court of law, and quite frankly, while I know a quite a bit about "the Peace Dollar", there are probably other members of this forum who could tell the story better (i.e. with more enjoyment) than I could. >>

You want to edit that just one more time (limine).

ANACONDA · January 11, 2011 12:23AM

Done. Thanks for the heads up.

ANACONDA · January 11, 2011 12:25AM

<< Bad coin doctoring is when you do it, good coin doctoring is when somebody like NCS does it. To further differentiate the two, the former is called "cleaning," while the latter is called "conserving." It's like "gambling" and "gaming." It's gambling when you have the poker game in your house, but gaming when it's in the poker room in the casino. How'd I do?

>>

You get an "A" for insight.

Bossman88 · January 11, 2011 2:43AM

Any action or activity done to a coin to create
the illusion that said coin is of a higher grade,
or more valueable than the coin would actually
be, had the action or activity not been performed.

Regards, Larry

roadrunner · January 11, 2011 3:23AM

Bad coin doctoring is what bad coin doctors do.

Show me a (bad) coin doctor and I'll show you (bad) coin doctoring.

roadrunner

Studio60 · January 11, 2011 9:11AM

<< studio60 said: "What about that quick dip to remove PVC residue? The coin is then altered from its original appearance by removing a small layer of it."
"Isn't there "good deception" vs "bad deception"? (I know that appears counterintuitive on the face of it.)"

Well now....let's think about this. A coin, as originally struck and released by the mint, certainly did not have PVC residue. Removing PVC residue from a coin is not "doctoring", IMHO. It's like removing dirt, or chewing gum, etal.

I like the phrase "altering the appearance with clear intent to deceive", as a description of "doctoring". >>

This statement is so well put I believe it deserves repeating.
Thank you nankraut for not only helping me to change my mind, but for making me think.

Loupe · January 11, 2011 10:56AM

Watch Here

And check out the chinese morgan neckless

ANACONDA · January 11, 2011 12:42PM

<< Watch Here

And check out the chinese morgan neckless

>>

What is he saying...."brew clot..."???

AMRC · January 11, 2011 12:56PM

Anything the grading companies can detect.

ANACONDA · January 13, 2011 12:35AM

I gotta tell ya' ...that one actually makes a huge amount of sense to me.

They should know best about what is going on out there in terms of what the "doctors" are doing....methodologies and results....

They should know best about what is most likely to change after a coin has been holdered

The should know best about what is and should be "market acceptable"...

They should be most familiar with what coins typically look like since they've seen most of them, and therefore should have the best opinions about what is original or not....

Incidentally, I have been castigated before by saying something along the lines that "if it's in a holder, then it's not AT as far as I'm concerned". While I have moved a little away from that philosophy, I still think that PCGS and NGC's opinions about what is acceptable or not are extremely relevant to the discussion.

(Of course, I realize that the criticism came mostly from dealers (and a backer) who had a financial interest in bolstering their "holier than thou" reputations in an effort to hurt my business and reputatioin - which didn't happen - and so while I heard what they said, they never defended their positions, to the best of my recollection.)

ricko · January 13, 2011 12:43AM

"if it's in a holder, then it's not AT as far as I'm concerned". That statement is so bogus it defies reason... heck, coins can even be AT'd IN the holder. Cheers, RickO

66RB · January 13, 2011 1:07AM

Bad coin doctoring, illustrated. Someone did this wrong, the surface was not stable and it changed in appearance while waiting to be graded.

before submitting coin for grading:

after grading and bodybag:

Please define (bad) coin doctoring.

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