Just who are the new breed of "internet only" collectors?
291fifth
Posts: 24,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
Are these the people we see bidding wildly on obvious Chinese fakes and buying polished AU 1931-S cents as "Gem BU"?
Does their isolation from other, more knowledgeable, collectors prevent them learning the basics that will keep them out of trouble?
Do these collectors tend to stay in the hobby or do they quickly burn out when they realize how badly they have been taken?
Does their isolation from other, more knowledgeable, collectors prevent them learning the basics that will keep them out of trouble?
Do these collectors tend to stay in the hobby or do they quickly burn out when they realize how badly they have been taken?
All glory is fleeting.
0
Comments
<< <i>100% of my error coin purchases have been over the internet, Your assumptions are way off. I'm in it for the long haul. IMO, the internet is BY FAR the best place to buy coins with Ebay on the top of the list. >>
All of my numismatic purchases during 2010 were from internet sources. Local dealers don't carry what I collect. However, I've been collecting for 49+ years and know what I collect much better than the dealers. My post refers to newbie collectors, not veterans.
The only way to make an economic system truly stable is to permit the free market to take over.
<< <i>I am not at all sure it is a 'new breed', since I have purchase coins on the internet for twenty years. Cheers, RickO >>
You bought coins on the internet in 1990?! I didn't think eCommerce was around yet.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not at all sure it is a 'new breed', since I have purchase coins on the internet for twenty years. Cheers, RickO >>
You bought coins on the internet in 1990?! I didn't think eCommerce was around yet. >>
It was around, but very limited... 1994/1995 was when it really took off. I was doing online auctions in 1992 (for a different collectible).
If anyone is like me, there aren't any shops nearby that has anything of interest or there aren't any coin shows close enough to warrant the expenditure to drive to. If it wasn't for this place (mainly), eBay, and other online dealers, I probably would not have entered into coin collecting like I have or wouldn't keep the interest up like I do.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not at all sure it is a 'new breed', since I have purchase coins on the internet for twenty years. Cheers, RickO >>
You bought coins on the internet in 1990?! I didn't think eCommerce was around yet. >>
It was around, but very limited... 1994/1995 was when it really took off. I was doing online auctions in 1992 (for a different collectible). >>
1995 isn't entirely accurate at all , the Pentium processor and Ebay both made an appearance around then and the internet was already established.There were many hundreds of bulliten boards long before.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not at all sure it is a 'new breed', since I have purchase coins on the internet for twenty years. Cheers, RickO >>
You bought coins on the internet in 1990?! I didn't think eCommerce was around yet. >>
It was around, but very limited... 1994/1995 was when it really took off. I was doing online auctions in 1992 (for a different collectible). >>
1995 isn't entirely accurate at all , the Pentium processor and Ebay both made an appearance around then and the internet was already established.There were many hundreds of bulliten boards long before. >>
That's why I wrote "was when it really took off" and mentioned that I was doing online auctions in 1992. It began in 1979... but would that be entirely accurate?
I used to buy and sell comic books via usenet before there was an "Internet" per se...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I built sets of Kennedys, Franklins, Walkers, Barbers, and Seated Liberty halves back then. All of these were RAW coins.
Also at that time I build a RAW set of Peace dollars and Ike dollars.
Sarted into the regisrty in 2004 and started selling my RAW coins to build a few sets of slabbed coins.
Over the next five years I sold almost all of the RAW coins and built over seventy differnt registry sets. Yes some were year mint sets part of the reason for so many sets.
In 2009 I retired for the second time and moved out here in the sticks by a lake. At that time I retired about fifty of my sets and spent 2010 selling off on ebay those coins that no longer fits my current goals of collecting.
Now for the fact that I can count on my fingers the number of coins I did not buy on the internet.
And the fact that I got one fake coin on the internet.
And that I currently have a couple of sets to keep me interested I don't think I am ready to quit yet.
Holes to fill Here, here, and here. Plus I might do some upgrades. In fact I won a upgrade from a board menber last night on eBay for that set and listed my undergrade on eBay this morning.
At the last Heritage auction there were coins that looked nice in the catalog and on the Internet, but when I saw a few of them in person, I knew I needed to pass. Nothing beats seeing the coin in person.
<< <i>100% of my error coin purchases have been over the internet, Your assumptions are way off. I'm in it for the long haul. IMO, the internet is BY FAR the best place to buy coins with Ebay on the top of the list. >>
Error coins might be the one place where photos will do. With those pieces the nature of the error is more important than the level of preservation and quite often such coins have seen very little use because of their appearance.
<< <i>
<< <i>100% of my error coin purchases have been over the internet, Your assumptions are way off. I'm in it for the long haul. IMO, the internet is BY FAR the best place to buy coins with Ebay on the top of the list. >>
Error coins might be the one place where photos will do. With those pieces the nature of the error is more important than the level of preservation and quite often such coins have seen very little use because of their appearance. >>
Well said and very true. Internet error coins buying has been fantastic for me.
<< <i>If anyone is like me, there aren't any shops nearby that has anything of interest or there aren't any coin shows close enough to warrant the expenditure to drive to. If it wasn't for this place (mainly), eBay, and other online dealers, I probably would not have entered into coin collecting like I have or wouldn't keep the interest up like I do. >>
This is me too. I finally have the time to collect and pay attention. I am fairly certain that what I have learned from and by the internet in one year, took most of you decades to learn. For sure there is a lot of crap on eBay, but there are also a lot of gems. I only focus on Lincolns and sure, I started off, falling for the unsearched roll, BU dipped coins, graduated to GSC college. lol. I look it as the tuition for my education. With that education, I now get paydays like a $25 1921-S LWC being returned slabbed as MS64RB.
here is a thought. No image compares to a coin in hand and no coin in hand compares to a high resolution image.
Learning coin photography is teaching me a lot of what a coin will look like in hand. take Heritage pictures for example. I think I have a very very good idea of what a copper coin will actually look like in hand because of learning photography and duplicating images similar to their methods. Test results will be in a few days!
<< <i>Ebay has provided a huge boost to the number of people now collecting (and selling) coins. Currently over 427,000 listings in the US Coin category. >>
I fell out of my chair when I found that GSC does 2.5m on 10k listings over a 90 day period. That is just one coin dealer on ebay. ONE!
I only have a couple of coins that I have purchased locally or at shows, the rest have been through dealer websites, here on the BST, or Ebay. I have learned more from the good folks here on this Internet based forum than I ever did from local collectors or dealers. So, the Internet hasn't isolated me at all, in fact it has enlightened me and provided all the information I need to be a semi-knowledgable collector. I still read books too, but by FAR, this forum has helped me more than any other source. For that, I am very very greatful to PCGS. There are still plenty of people out there that are beginners, or who are just not knowledgable enough to know what is garbage - hence all the junk on Ebay. BUT, maybe that "junk" is all that person can afford. Who knows...
<< <i> I am fairly certain that what I have learned from and by the internet in one year, took most of you decades to learn. here is a thought.
No image compares to a coin in hand and no coin in hand compares to a high resolution image. >>
1) Hubris - Been a dealer for 30+ years. The more battle-hardened of us would consider you to be "fresh meat".
2) I look at tens of thousands of coins per year. Many look at an order of magnitude more. Can you rotate the image in the light to see flaws not visible from some angles? Etc.
Please don't take this personally, but... OK, take it personally.
I have an urge to address you as "Shirley". Leslie Nielsen can explain.
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>I buy just about everything online - why not coins?
Because pictures can lie, and if you get fooled it can cost you thousands of dollars.
<< <i>
<< <i>I buy just about everything online - why not coins?
Because pictures can lie, and if you get fooled it can cost you thousands of dollars. >>
Heritage seems to have pretty reasonable photos. Plus, I wouldn't bid on anything where I thought the photo was "juiced".
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>Are these the people we see bidding wildly on obvious Chinese fakes and buying polished AU 1931-S cents as "Gem BU"?
Does their isolation from other, more knowledgeable, collectors prevent them learning the basics that will keep them out of trouble?
Do these collectors tend to stay in the hobby or do they quickly burn out when they realize how badly they have been taken? >>
I suspect that the people you refer to here could have been making these mistakes long before the internet, it's just more apparent now as we can now publicly watch the transactions go down.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i> I am fairly certain that what I have learned from and by the internet in one year, took most of you decades to learn. here is a thought.
No image compares to a coin in hand and no coin in hand compares to a high resolution image. >>
1) Hubris - Been a dealer for 30+ years. The more battle-hardened of us would consider you to be "fresh meat".
2) I look at tens of thousands of coins per year. Many look at an order of magnitude more. Can you rotate the image in the light to see flaws not visible from some angles? Etc.
Please don't take this personally, but... OK, take it personally.
I have an urge to address you as "Shirley". Leslie Nielsen can explain. >>
Wow....As long as your price range stays below 3 figures, no harm will really be done using rlarick's approach to collecting coins. But the notion that one can grade/evaluate a three-dimensional object (i.e., a coin) using one or two two-dimensional images is, at best, very naive. Looking at images of coins isn't even close to looking at actual coins in hand, and there is no use pretending otherwise. The biggest hurdles novice collectors have (aside from cash) are a lack of access to lots of coins while trying to acquire grading skills, and a lack of patience. A novice collector really needs to find a mentor, and not assume he can learn what he needs to know all by himself. And, before assuming that auction catalogs (paper or electronic) accurately depict what coin lots look like in hand, it would be 'educational' to actually attend a coin auction (especially to view the lots)---that experience would disabuse you of your misplaced idealism. The coin business is full of sharks, and I have repeatedly seen firsthand what has happened to other collectors, who failed to do their homework, when they tried to sell their coins.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i> I am fairly certain that what I have learned from and by the internet in one year, took most of you decades to learn. here is a thought.
No image compares to a coin in hand and no coin in hand compares to a high resolution image. >>
1) Hubris - Been a dealer for 30+ years. The more battle-hardened of us would consider you to be "fresh meat".
2) I look at tens of thousands of coins per year. Many look at an order of magnitude more. Can you rotate the image in the light to see flaws not visible from some angles? Etc.
Please don't take this personally, but... OK, take it personally.
I have an urge to address you as "Shirley". Leslie Nielsen can explain. >>
Old experience is exactly that .. OLD get with the times or get left behind.. In my 50 years I have learned that. I can see this hobby is rife with naysayers and people who say "do it my way" or you are doing it the wrong way. They shun the things that might improve what they think they know. Why is that?
You don't have to look very far to see how coin collecting is behind with integration of technology. Just now getting around to laser identification and gas chromatography are we? You can get Iris identication and soft ware set ups for 4k. Yet .. oh nevermind.. Let me ask. Why has it taken so long for this type of ID to be available? I'll take a stab. It's because of..... Stereotypically, I see a bunch of fuddy duddies running this show. "I am in and you are not"
And don't call me Shirley!
What I have learned about in hand and imaging, I can't really explain in a post and it only applies to small number of scenarios. The camera I am shooting with was 2k just a couple of years ago. 10mp is the norm now on Point and shoots. 20mp with sensors as large as the coin we collect.
Doesn't matter if you have looked at 10 million coins. What high resolution photography can show is what causes that luster. Your eyes can not see that, nor can your brain record all the nicks and dings. I don't know what magnification typical loupes have but I do know at 100% resolution the 3/4" pennies are now 30" inches across my computer screen. Photographic images allow time to study..
I am trying to figure out how to oscillate and random orbit a coin while under my camera. once that happens.......
<< <i> But the notion that one can grade/evaluate a three-dimensional object (i.e., a coin) using one or two two-dimensional images is, at best, very naive. >>
Maybe everyones eyesight is better than mine, but I contend that the notion that your eyes can see what a camera can see is very naive.
Granted, you can rotate the coin in your hands and see the coin from different perspectives and have the light reflect off the coin's surfaces at different angles and with different intensities however you can blow up an image (OK Realone...now's the time to insert one of your 20 by 20 inch images) WAY larger than what your eye can see with magnification AND you can take as many images showing everything that the naked eye can see.
Images CAN show you more of what a coin looks like than having it in your hands. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact.
I don't know how many times I have heard that.....well, what do you think appears off the end of Franklin's nose? A booger that has broken free and whizzed out into the stratosphere?
What a schmuck I was to own an 1804 S$1 and hold it, raw and naked, in my hand, pulsating with karma juice and history, when a googolplex of electrons might have been available to afford me a deeper richer experience.
Thank you for illuminating my consciousness. It's just a damn shame I wasted my life living it instead of taking pictures. I appreciate your condescension.
Sorry about my attitude. Wasted my life. Damn.
Oh, I forgot. In 1967 I helped write operating system code for the IBM 2780 binary synchchronous device that facilitated the first hi-speed transmission of data over telephone lines. Bastiches from Bell Labs and Western Electric kept modifying the micro-code overnight and crashing the IBM 360 it was hooked up to. But hey, we were multi-tasking decades before your PC or your Droid. In 1972 I wrote an Basic Assembly Language program (how primitive!) that simulated the same device for DARPA-NET. So every time you hook up to the Web, remember to say thanks to your old Grandpa here. Now I gotta go out and check on my herd of dinosaurs.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
<< <i>Youbetcha.
I used to buy and sell comic books via usenet before there was an "Internet" per se... >>
Well, technically speaking, there was indeed an Internet upon the advent of Usenet. There was not yet a
World Wide Web (www) featuring web sites and ubiquitous graphical browsers.
<< <i>I really don't know why some people think images are inferior to what the eye sees when the coin is in hand (maybe it's the fuddy dud mentality), but to me it is JUST LAUGHABLE!
Granted, you can rotate the coin in your hands and see the coin from different perspectives and have the light reflect off the coin's surfaces at different angles and with different intensities however you can blow up an image (OK Realone...now's the time to insert one of your 20 by 20 inch images) WAY larger than what your eye can see with magnification AND you can take as many images showing everything that the naked eye can see.
Images CAN show you more of what a coin looks like than having it in your hands. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact. >>
You've sort of answered your own question with the phrase "different perspectives". Any given photo of a coin
can hide some crucial aspect of it based on the lighting and other factors. How many high quality closeups are
provided in the average coin listing?
Buying coins from photos without a return policy is a recipe for getting burned.
That is true but not because images are not good at telling you what a coin looks like. It's true because the seller may not want his images to tell you what the coin looks like.
AT images.....that's the problem.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Most people waste their lives.
<< <i>Looking at Google maps of Oahu is not the same as riding a forty-footer. Looking at porn is not the same thing as holding a vibrant eager woman in your arms.
What a schmuck I was to own an 1804 S$1 and hold it, raw and naked, in my hand, pulsating with karma juice and history, when a googolplex of electrons might have been available to afford me a deeper richer experience.
That you for illuminating my consciousness. It's just a damn shame I wasted my life living it. I appreciate your condescension.
Sorry about my attitude. Wasted my life. Damn.
Oh, I forgot. In 1967 I helped write operating system code for the IBM 2780 binary synchchronous device that facilitated the first hi-speed transmission of data over telephone lines. Bastiches from Bell Labs and Western Electric kept modifying the micro-code overnight and crashing the IBM 360 it was hooked up to. But hey, we were multi-tasking decades before your PC or your Droid. In 1972 I wrote an Basic Assembly Language program (how primitive!) that simulated the same device for DARPA-NET. So every time you hook up to the Web, remember to say thanks to your old Grandpa here. Now I gotta go out and check on my herd of dinosaurs. >>
Funny, funny, funny.
Your analogies are spot on - I sense you were channeling Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. ("can you tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel...)
Funny....
<< <i>"Sorry about my attitude. Wasted my life. Damn."
Don't be so hard on yourself. Most people waste their lives. >>
But I forgot to take PICTURES.
Perhaps in my next life I'll be reincarnated as an electron as a response to this discussion leaving me so negatively charged. What a pixelating possibility! Maybe I can integrate into the Borg. Perhaps neuronal networks and wetware are not yet obsolete.
<< <i>"Buying coins from photos without a return policy is a recipe for getting burned."
That is true but not because images are not good at telling you what a coin looks like. It's true because the seller may not want his images to tell you what the coin looks like.
AT images.....that's the problem. >>
You argued that images are as good as seeing the coin in hand. I think the *vast* majority of
experienced coin collectors would strongly disagree, although with some images of some
coins, one can probably get a very good idea of the actual look. I also agree that certain flaws
can be easier to spot in a photo. Ideally, one has access to both...
<< <i>Looking at Google maps of Oahu is not the same as riding a forty-footer. Looking at porn is not the same thing as holding a vibrant eager woman in your arms.
What a schmuck I was to own an 1804 S$1 and hold it, raw and naked, in my hand, pulsating with karma juice and history, when a googolplex of electrons might have been available to afford me a deeper richer experience.
That you for illuminating my consciousness. It's just a damn shame I wasted my life living it. I appreciate your condescension.
Sorry about my attitude. Wasted my life. Damn.
no no no no..... it is your knowledge and expertise that is what I use to cross reference to images when formulating buying decisions. The stuff I am talking about is in its infancy. As cameras get higher resolution, when coupled with wireless technology, the capability of seeing a coin in hand has the potential to become virtual. The hobby/business needs the human factor like yourself to validate, critique or dispel the accuracy of those images. Knowing the shortfalls of images compared to a coin in hand causes me to focus on those deficiencies. Not sure if I am making sense. I don't want to muddy up this thread by posting images. However Anaconda brings up a good point with Heritage images.
Heritage takes their images from the same perspective, same lighting. Disclaimer: I only viewed MS Lincolns (does it bug anyone else that they shoot the reverse by flipping the coin over instead of rotating 180 and flipping?)
Here is what is happening, if you study the HA images and then get that coin in hand, you now have a point of reference to gauge other coins. The same way Colonel, - that you can instantly detect things about a coin in hand. I surmise that with practice, those little nuances you instantly detect are also present in the image, you/we/I just need to know what to look for.
On MSRD copper. Heritage is shooting highly lustrous coins with very diffused lighting. Now with that said, if you have experience with diffused lighting, you know how a lustrous coin is going to appear.
Here is the same coin shot twice. Once to highlight luster the other with diffused lighting that nearly hides all the luster, (very similar to how HA shoots their MSRD Copper.
1st up this one is shot the way I like to capture/see a coin 67RD
2nd up - this is the same coin as above shot in a manner that I think mimics the way HA shoots copper
This is the HA image from their AUction listing of a MS67RD that I won from last weekends auction. IS THIS COIN IS AN UPGRADE TO THE ONE I ALREADY HAVE??
I contend while there is a distracting hit on the HA coin that when it does arrive and I image it, we will find that it is far more lustrous than the 67RD I already have when I shoot it in a manner that I like. I know it and I guarantee it and I never have seen the HA coin in hand.
I love your photos, as limited as the range of your area of specialization might be, but perhaps you might consider restraining yourself from pissing on the heads of people when you're standing on their shoulders.
Next time you make a global statement (and I do note that you narrowed the range of your statement over time) remember: all generalizations are bad.
If you'd stated the limits of your numismatic focus at the very beginning and then expounded on the technological advances you would have gotten a different response from many.
Another thread on photography itself would attract others with knowledge and interest on that subject.
T-Rex is hungry. And pissed that Bear won't share donuts.
There is risk with either or both but that's largely a function of the looker.
and brings to mind T.T imaging ; they use all kinds of different lighting , different contrasts, different angles , different white balance , i think some are from scanners ....... - different-different - different .
it is extremely hard to get a handle on what their coins will look like in hand