Why do I think the coin might be a (scary) counterfeit? There's something about Russ's tone in this thread, as well as the unusual nature of the "environmental damage".
It could be an AU50 if it were problem-free. If it slabbed it probably would be a `genuine` nevertheless, i wouldn`t kick it out of my humble collection. tfs
Well, I don't see how you guys can conclude it's a fake, given all the unknown minor die variations conceded to have existed back then. At least, not just by looking at some pictures.
Remember, the Chinese used the 1795 off center to make their DBSE fakes. This looks alot like the one I have.
I posted on this before but I once persuaded a ebay purveyor of these fakes to send me one, on approval. This, after one of them appeared to fetch ~$10K in a private auction. I emailed the seller and said i would like one too, adding that seller should send it to me and if I like it, I will pay. Seller replied that I had to win the coin first, pay, then it would be shipped. I advised the seller that he dishonored me. That in my country people always send me coins and I only pay if I like. In one of the emails I provided my address.
Much to my surprise, one came in the mail about 3 weeks later. Seller probably figured that the outside chance I would be dumb enough to send him money made sending it worthwhile.
<< <i>I posted on this before but I once persuaded a ebay purveyor of these fakes to send me one, on approval. This, after one of them appeared to fetch ~$10K in a private auction. I emailed the seller and said i would like one too, adding that seller should send it to me and if I like it, I will pay. Seller replied that I had to win the coin first, pay, then it would be shipped. I advised the seller that he dishonored me. That in my country people always send me coins and I only pay if I like. In one of the emails I provided my address.. >>
Hair curls under B and E, should be under E and R.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
The 1795 off center bust dollar is often faked, with the diagnostics of the copies closely matching a geniune coin. This coin has the same degree of bifurcation on T and Y and probably came from the same fake dies that sinin 1 posted, with the obverse field tooled. The transfer dies copied the bifurcation of the genuine coin and will be on all fakes made from these dies, which would not be the case on genuine coins. The edge lettering will also indicate a bogus bust dollar.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>The 1795 off center bust dollar is often faked, with the diagnostics of the copies closely matching a geniune coin. This coin has the same degree of bifurcation on T and Y and probably came from the same fake dies that sinin 1 posted, with the obverse field tooled. The transfer dies copied the bifurcation of the genuine coin and will be on all fakes made from these dies, which would not be the case on genuine coins. The edge lettering will also indicate a bogus bust dollar. >>
Thank you. Do I understand correctly, then, that the stars on the counterfeit posted by Russ, will match those seen on genuine examples?
<< <i><< The 1795 off center bust dollar is often faked, with the diagnostics of the copies closely matching a geniune coin. This coin has the same degree of bifurcation on T and Y and probably came from the same fake dies that sinin 1 posted, with the obverse field tooled. The transfer dies copied the bifurcation of the genuine coin and will be on all fakes made from these dies, which would not be the case on genuine coins. The edge lettering will also indicate a bogus bust dollar. >> >>
<< <i>Thank you. Do I understand correctly, then, that the stars on the counterfeit posted by Russ, will match those seen on genuine examples? >>
The position of the stars relative to L and Y match 1795 B14, along with star to dentil orientation. However, stars 9-15 on the coin Russ posted appear to be slightly filled between the points, from a incomplete transfer from the original when the fake dies were made. There is also a joined dentil under 17 on both Sinin 1 and Russ' coin, but not on a genuine 1795 B14. Notice that obverse T is filled at the base on Grip's geniune posted coin, but on both fakes is bifurcated
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Russ
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SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
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Was it in a fire?
<< <i>Genuine for environmental damage or altered surfaces. >>
Yeah, the staining is rather bothersome.
Russ, NCNE
If it slabbed it probably would be a `genuine`
nevertheless, i wouldn`t kick it out of my humble collection. tfs
<< <i>Why do I think the coin might be a (scary) counterfeit?. >>
I was thinking the same thing...
<< <i>Genuine for environmental damage or altered surfaces. >>
have to agree
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Those stars simply represent the original 15 colonies.
15 stars is correct.
Russ, NCNE
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The dentils look wrong...not as crisply formed as they should be, particularly where they meet the fields.
If it's fake it feels like a copy from a real one.
Lance.
I think it is deceptive - but I and not seeing adjustment marks or some of the characterists one would likely see
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>For smoe strange reason the Draped Bust Liberty just doesn't look right on that coin. >>
I didn't realize they made both types in 95. Disregard my last post.
was not made on a US screw press.
I posted on this before but I once persuaded a ebay purveyor of these fakes to send me one, on approval. This, after one of them appeared to fetch ~$10K in a private auction. I emailed the seller and said i would like one too, adding that seller should send it to me and if I like it, I will pay. Seller replied that I had to win the coin first, pay, then it would be shipped. I advised the seller that he dishonored me. That in my country people always send me coins and I only pay if I like. In one of the emails I provided my address.
Much to my surprise, one came in the mail about 3 weeks later. Seller probably figured that the outside chance I would be dumb enough to send him money made sending it worthwhile.
<< <i>I posted on this before but I once persuaded a ebay purveyor of these fakes to send me one, on approval. This, after one of them appeared to fetch ~$10K in a private auction. I emailed the seller and said i would like one too, adding that seller should send it to me and if I like it, I will pay. Seller replied that I had to win the coin first, pay, then it would be shipped. I advised the seller that he dishonored me. That in my country people always send me coins and I only pay if I like. In one of the emails I provided my address.. >>
lol well played
<< <i>Counterfeit. >>
Hair curls under B and E, should be under E and R.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Grade wise, high end VF tops.
Brian
JJ
but yours has been hit with a torch
my pictured coin on eBay currently at $2 delivered
<< <i>
<< <i>Those stars simply represent the original 15 colonies.
15 stars is correct.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, that was just my lame reply to Grip, as he didn't explain what he sees wrong with the stars. Back up a little, you'll see that.
<< <i>Counterfeit. >>
Yup. Depressions in the field give it away.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those stars simply represent the original 15 colonies.
15 stars is correct.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, that was just my lame reply to Grip, as he didn't explain what he sees wrong with the stars. Back up a little, you'll see that.
My fault.I should have just said,the stars look cartoonish.
<< <i>very similar to this one
but yours has been hit with a torch >>
Omitting pictures to conserve bandwidth, but I guess this is the point at which one says, "Seeing is believing." Good job.
<< <i>My fault.I should have just said,the stars look cartoonish. >>
Yeah, that's what I say, and you should be punished for neglecting to say that! And exiled!
<< <i>The 1795 off center bust dollar is often faked, with the diagnostics of the copies closely matching a geniune coin. This coin has the same degree of bifurcation on T and Y and probably came from the same fake dies that sinin 1 posted, with the obverse field tooled. The transfer dies copied the bifurcation of the genuine coin and will be on all fakes made from these dies, which would not be the case on genuine coins. The edge lettering will also indicate a bogus bust dollar. >>
Thank you. Do I understand correctly, then, that the stars on the counterfeit posted by Russ, will match those seen on genuine examples?
-Paul
<< <i><< The 1795 off center bust dollar is often faked, with the diagnostics of the copies closely matching a geniune coin. This coin has the same degree of bifurcation on T and Y and probably came from the same fake dies that sinin 1 posted, with the obverse field tooled. The transfer dies copied the bifurcation of the genuine coin and will be on all fakes made from these dies, which would not be the case on genuine coins. The edge lettering will also indicate a bogus bust dollar. >> >>
<< <i>Thank you. Do I understand correctly, then, that the stars on the counterfeit posted by Russ, will match those seen on genuine examples? >>
The position of the stars relative to L and Y match 1795 B14, along with star to dentil orientation. However, stars 9-15 on the coin Russ posted appear to be slightly filled between the points, from a incomplete transfer from the original when the fake dies were made. There is also a joined dentil under 17 on both Sinin 1 and Russ' coin, but not on a genuine 1795 B14. Notice that obverse T is filled at the base on Grip's geniune posted coin, but on both fakes is bifurcated