Isn't album toning actually Artificial Toning?
llafoe
Posts: 7,220 ✭✭
If a coin is stored for years in tissue paper... isn't that AT? A coin stored in an album... isn't that AT too?
Wouldn't the only natural toning occur when a coin is toned in mint related items... e.g., proof/mint set envelopes/cellophane, mint presentation cases, etc.?
We shouldn't be discussing AT vs NT, we should be discussing LTT vs STT (long-term toning vs short-term toning)... correct? A coin toned in a napkin from 1964-date is acceptable, whereas a coin toned in a Taco Bell napkin from June 2010-date is unacceptable. Both coins were toned by a napkin, but only one of the coins will be entombed in a slab.
Wouldn't the only natural toning occur when a coin is toned in mint related items... e.g., proof/mint set envelopes/cellophane, mint presentation cases, etc.?
We shouldn't be discussing AT vs NT, we should be discussing LTT vs STT (long-term toning vs short-term toning)... correct? A coin toned in a napkin from 1964-date is acceptable, whereas a coin toned in a Taco Bell napkin from June 2010-date is unacceptable. Both coins were toned by a napkin, but only one of the coins will be entombed in a slab.
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perhaps one should consider a spectrum, where slowly developed album, envelope, and end-roll toning are more toward natural, and fast methods such as heat and chemicals are more toward artificial.
oh, also.. don't forget to LOOK AT THE COIN
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
AT-------------------------------|-------------------------------------NT
......................................................................^
..................................................................Album
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The are no Coin Laws that mandate air tight sealing of coins to prevent this
so......NO
<< <i>If a coin is stored for years in tissue paper... isn't that AT? A coin stored in an album... isn't that AT too?
Wouldn't the only natural toning occur when a coin is toned in mint related items... e.g., proof/mint set envelopes/cellophane, mint presentation cases, etc.?
We shouldn't be discussing AT vs NT, we should be discussing LTT vs STT (long-term toning vs short-term toning)... correct? A coin toned in a napkin from 1964-date is acceptable, whereas a coin toned in a Taco Bell napkin from June 2010-date is unacceptable. Both coins were toned by a napkin, but only one of the coins will be entombed in a slab. >>
There is some that is and some that isn't; you tell us which is which.
<< <i>As has been said here before, IT DEPENDS. If experience tells you that putting certain coins into certain types of albums produces certain side effects aka desirable coloration [for which someone would willingly pay more than the coin would normally be worth] AND you later go out and get a 1,000 coin bag or a bunch of "BU" rolls of 1884-o Morgans and put them all into albums with the express purpose of selling the resulting "colored" coins at a substantial profit; then the coins could be said to have been artificially/intentionally toned. The problem is that after the fact, it is generally difficult to tell. >>
AT-------------------------------|-------------------------------------NT
........................^
...............Above example
<< <i>As has been said here before, IT DEPENDS. If experience tells you that putting certain coins into certain types of albums produces certain side effects aka desirable coloration [for which someone would willingly pay more than the coin would normally be worth] AND you later go out and get a 1,000 coin bag or a bunch of "BU" rolls of 1884-o Morgans and put them all into albums with the express purpose of selling the resulting "colored" coins at a substantial profit; then the coins could be said to have been artificially/intentionally toned. The problem is that after the fact, it is generally difficult to tell. >>
This analogy makes no sense. This would be considered NT, you would have to wait like 20-30 years to get any sort of color that would demand a premium over silver, AT would be accelerated toning like putting them in the oven or sticking a bag of them in a very hot area.
I disagree that "artificially" and "intentionally" are equivalent words that mean the same thing with regards to a coin.
coins can be intentionally naturally toned in an album over a long time.
just as coins can be unintentionally (accidently) toned in a way that makes them 100% "AT" appearing (think a dropped coin under a washing machine, or lost for years on a cluttered garage floor, or stored in a bag or box of "stuff" in the attic.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
What is the intent of the person and how does that influence their choice and duration of storage?
If their intent is to deceive and/or turn a quick profit by advancing the natural toning process of a coin, then that is AT.
If their intent is to store their coin in a hobby approved album made specifically for collectors with no deception or sinister motive, then that is NT.
The only way to make an economic system truly stable is to permit the free market to take over.
<< <i>AT-------------------------------|-------------------------------------NT
......................................................................^
..................................................................Album >>
+1.. love it!
The mint did and I repeat did sell coins in a albumn, well kind of,
the double mint sets came in a cardboard holder with paper glued on one side and loose on the other.
So I think that qualifys as an albumn.
The only way to make an economic system truly stable is to permit the free market to take over.
dipping is considered market acceptable as well even though many consider it doctoring
market acceptable trumps all..................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>AT-------------------------------|-------------------------------------NT
..........................^
..........................One hundred albums filled with coins in an area filled with toning accelerants >>
>>
What is the intent of the person and how does that influence their choice and duration of storage?
If their intent is to deceive and/or turn a quick profit by advancing the natural toning process of a coin, then that is AT.
If their intent is to store their coin in a hobby approved album made specifically for collectors with no deception or sinister motive, then that is NT.
I find this absurd.
Does "intent" convey from the seller to the buyer with ownership of the coin?
a toned coin must stand on it's own merits. if the "story" is part of the deal, there had better be some pretty solid documentation
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I think the biggest factor to consider when answering this question is INTENT.
What is the intent of the person and how does that influence their choice and duration of storage?
If their intent is to deceive and/or turn a quick profit by advancing the natural toning process of a coin, then that is AT.
If their intent is to store their coin in a hobby approved album made specifically for collectors with no deception or sinister motive, then that is NT. >>
One collector places a coin in an album, with the hope or intent that it tone beautifully, so that he can later sell it for big bucks. Another collector places a coin in the same type of album, having no clue that it will tone. And is, in fact, upset that it tones.
Whether placing a coin in such an album is considered AT or NT - and I strongly believe it to be the latter - intent is or should be irrelevant.
I would say when one starts using chemical agents, etc., to turn a 2010 Silver Eagle in to a "monster toned!!!" coin.
<< <i>I think the biggest factor to consider when answering this question is INTENT.
What is the intent of the person and how does that influence their choice and duration of storage?
If their intent is to deceive and/or turn a quick profit by advancing the natural toning process of a coin, then that is AT.
If their intent is to store their coin in a hobby approved album made specifically for collectors with no deception or sinister motive, then that is NT. >>
Bingo! The person who stored the toned 1859 O Seated $ in PC 3 which I currently own in a Wayte Raymond album for I don't know how many years, did not intend to tone the coin. Rather, he / she wanted to put it away for safekeeping and prevent the coin from being damaged.
The same case can be made for legitimately toned PF IHCs which were stored in their original tissue paper issued by the Mint.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
matter much to me. if someone can AT a coin so that it turns into a monster that
is worth more money, so be it.
if dipping is A-OK.. heck, so is toning a coin. removing a layer.. adding a layer.. it is
all about making a coin marketable for bigger profits.
call me jaded but i see why people do it. they are just filling a need on both sides
of the spectrum. no metal was moved, no lasers involved ;-), etc.. just making the
coin prettier for the easy mark, er customer. the tpgs find both acceptable within
reason or some standard that changes with the tide.
NO
If I open a roll or two of 2011 ASEs and place each coin in a Taco Bell napkin and store that bunch of napkins in the warmest part of my house is that still NT? If I submit them to PCGS, should I expect them to get graded?
Impossible to answer without SEEING the COINS, could possibly grade or not, depending on HOW THEY LOOK
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>After twelve years on these boards, still the same old tired topics and arguments. Unbelievable. Tarnish is tarnish (toning is just a name people give it to make it sound 'sophisticated'). Metal reacts to the environment. If there are contaminants present, it will tarnish (silver especially, but copper as well). Tarnish is, and always will be, environmental damage that some find desirable and will pay premiums for, therefore, others will accelerate the process. I do not care what you collect or how much you pay for it, that is your business. Whether the damage occurs naturally or is expedited will likely still be a topic here in another twelve years. Cheers, RickO >>
Not quite. Tarnish is a natural reaction. You take the position that you're taking on it, i.e., that it's environmental damage, and you box yourself into a corner, and are forever condemned to twisting and turning to try to get yourself out of it. Unless you seriously believe that to be collectible coins must be stored in hyperbolic vacuum chambers, your position is untenable and totally impractical and unrealistic. I'm sorry to have to point that out to you, RickO, but that's how the pieces fall.
<< <i>If a coin is stored for years in tissue paper... isn't that AT? A coin stored in an album... isn't that AT too?
Wouldn't the only natural toning occur when a coin is toned in mint related items... e.g., proof/mint set envelopes/cellophane, mint presentation cases, etc.?
We shouldn't be discussing AT vs NT, we should be discussing LTT vs STT (long-term toning vs short-term toning)... correct? A coin toned in a napkin from 1964-date is acceptable, whereas a coin toned in a Taco Bell napkin from June 2010-date is unacceptable. Both coins were toned by a napkin, but only one of the coins will be entombed in a slab. >>
You're leading with your chin, pal. Don't you see your first mistake is, you fell for the BS? Get yourself back on your feet. There's no such thing as NT and AT, those are arbitrary and specious terms, incapable of objective definition. All tarnish is natural, regardless of the mode and/or manner of onset. Keep your eyes on the coin, llafoe, that's all you have to do. Make your judgments off the face of the coin, never let your mind's eye go spinning off into outer space, and you'll do just fine, and will never go wrong.
<< <i>If I open a roll or two of 2011 ASEs and place each coin in a Taco Bell napkin and store that bunch of napkins in the warmest part of my house is that still NT? If I submit them to PCGS, should I expect them to get graded?
Impossible to answer without SEEING the COINS, could possibly grade or not, depending on HOW THEY LOOK >>
This is the reality... two coins in Taco Bell napkins; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same manner. Two coins from a 1954 proof set; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same proof set. In it's purest sense, a toned coin in it's natural setting (toned in mint packaging) is NT, a coin removed from it's natural setting (no longer in it's mint packaging) is AT. Intent is first party and is lost once the coin is sold. I won't mention anything about the 1964 Peace dollars here.
Once a coin is slabbed, it's NT. If it's raw, it's AT. Toning is purely subjective and is defined by a grader at a TPG company.
RickO is correct - tarnish: "to dull the luster of (a metallic surface), esp. by oxidation; discolor." - toning: "that distinctive quality by which colors differ from one another in addition to their differences indicated by chroma, tint, shade; a slight modification of a given color; hue: green with a yellowish tone." Tarnish is the reaction that causes toning. It can cause ugly or wild toning (not market acceptable) or attractive or neutral toning (market acceptable). Toning is oxidation... period. Dipping is removing a layer of oxidation... period. Both are alteration of the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>After twelve years on these boards, still the same old tired topics and arguments. Unbelievable. Tarnish is tarnish (toning is just a name people give it to make it sound 'sophisticated'). Metal reacts to the environment. If there are contaminants present, it will tarnish (silver especially, but copper as well). Tarnish is, and always will be, environmental damage that some find desirable and will pay premiums for, therefore, others will accelerate the process. I do not care what you collect or how much you pay for it, that is your business. Whether the damage occurs naturally or is expedited will likely still be a topic here in another twelve years. Cheers, RickO >>
Not quite. Tarnish is a natural reaction. You take the position that you're taking on it, i.e., that it's environmental damage, and you box yourself into a corner, and are forever condemned to twisting and turning to try to get yourself out of it. Unless you seriously believe that to be collectible coins must be stored in hyperbolic vacuum chambers, your position is untenable and totally impractical and unrealistic. I'm sorry to have to point that out to you, RickO, but that's how the pieces fall. >>
haw haw ha ha
<< <i>
<< <i>If I open a roll or two of 2011 ASEs and place each coin in a Taco Bell napkin and store that bunch of napkins in the warmest part of my house is that still NT? If I submit them to PCGS, should I expect them to get graded?
Impossible to answer without SEEING the COINS, could possibly grade or not, depending on HOW THEY LOOK >>
This is the reality... two coins in Taco Bell napkins; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same manner. Two coins from a 1954 proof set; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same proof set. In it's purest sense, a toned coin in it's natural setting (toned in mint packaging) is NT, a coin removed from it's natural setting (no longer in it's mint packaging) is AT. Intent is first party and is lost once the coin is sold. I won't mention anything about the 1964 Peace dollars here.
Once a coin is slabbed, it's NT. If it's raw, it's AT. Toning is purely subjective and is defined by a grader at a TPG company.
RickO is correct - tarnish: "to dull the luster of (a metallic surface), esp. by oxidation; discolor." - toning: "that distinctive quality by which colors differ from one another in addition to their differences indicated by chroma, tint, shade; a slight modification of a given color; hue: green with a yellowish tone." Tarnish is the reaction that causes toning. It can cause ugly or wild toning (not market acceptable) or attractive or neutral toning (market acceptable). Toning is oxidation... period. Dipping is removing a layer of oxidation... period. Both are alteration of the coin. >>
The difference in appearance between two coins toned in essentially the same manner is likely due to two factors:
Surface finish/smoothness and or the presence of residual manufacturing oils/greases/washes/rinses. I think before wrapping the coins in the napkins, one would want to dip the coins in eZest or the best quality distilled in glass hydrocarbon solvent to ensure clean virgin surfaces. Now if PCGS sees 40 2 month old coins that look eerily similar, HMMMM!!!
<< <i>A hyperbaric vacuum chamber would be special indeed. Sort of like an empty glass of water. >>
You caught that pretty quick!!
<< <i>This is the reality... two coins in Taco Bell napkins; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same manner. Two coins from a 1954 proof set; if one looks NT it will slab, if one looks AT it won't slab, even though both toned in the same proof set. In it's purest sense, a toned coin in it's natural setting (toned in mint packaging) is NT, a coin removed from it's natural setting (no longer in it's mint packaging) is AT. Intent is first party and is lost once the coin is sold. I won't mention anything about the 1964 Peace dollars here.
Once a coin is slabbed, it's NT. If it's raw, it's AT. Toning is purely subjective and is defined by a grader at a TPG company.
RickO is correct - tarnish: "to dull the luster of (a metallic surface), esp. by oxidation; discolor." - toning: "that distinctive quality by which colors differ from one another in addition to their differences indicated by chroma, tint, shade; a slight modification of a given color; hue: green with a yellowish tone." Tarnish is the reaction that causes toning. It can cause ugly or wild toning (not market acceptable) or attractive or neutral toning (market acceptable). Toning is oxidation... period. Dipping is removing a layer of oxidation... period. Both are alteration of the coin. >>
I agree completely with this.
<< <i>Once a coin is slabbed, it's NT. If it's raw, it's AT. Toning is purely subjective and is defined by a grader at a TPG company. >>
If this is true, they wouldn't need to buy back coins due to toning right?
<< <i>
<< <i>Once a coin is slabbed, it's NT. If it's raw, it's AT. Toning is purely subjective and is defined by a grader at a TPG company. >>
If this is true, they wouldn't need to buy back coins due to toning right? >>
I was trying to demonstate mindset... not reality. The current perception is to rely on TPGs to determine if a coin is AT vs NT.
<< <i>I wonder how these professional graders can tell the difference between envelope or tissue toning and album toning or mint paper toning and what't the difference anyways? >>
They can't. Nobody can. That doesn't stop some collectors around these forums from believing otherwise, however.
Never forget. All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people.