I'm at LAX now and just went through security. This is no big deal. Really. I suggest everyone travel first before they cry "foul" or stammer, " a little to the left, please".
This trip through I saw no one get patted down. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I would feel better if the pat down was not done by a common, hastlily trained TSA drone on a government sanctioned power trip. They have complete discretion to search people with no probable cause. Even LEO's are trained to determine that before a search of a private individual. Allow more professional personnel do the honors. or the military.
<< <i>Allow more professional personnel do the honors. or the military.
Perhaps the TSA should enlist the services of some military proctologists and gynecologists!!! >>
Now you've gone and given them ANOTHER idea...
Seriously, there should be an independent study to determine the correlation between the traveler stopped for further attention and the "profile" of the traveler. Are they particularly attractive? What is their ethnicity? Wealthy? Run stats on all "enhanced" searches and the agent involved and see if there are any patterns of the searches that don't relate to security. They have carte blanche to cater to their own whims. They are just people, after all.
This being said, there MUST be security measures. It just should not be performed by government workers.
Considering your odds of getting killed by a terrorist is about 1 in 25 million and getting struck by lightning is 1 in 500K, you tell me how well our tax dollars are being spent.
Years ago I joked that someday we will arrive at the airport wearing a robe with a bag of clothes, flash the screener and get dressed in the open and press on to our flight.
I'm not a fan of the incremental invasion of our privacy. What the gov't is allowed to do to us now would put J6P in jail for years if he conducted himself similarly.
I fly around 500,000 miles per year. Mostly while at the controls (about 150,00+ as a passenger.) The treatment we are subjected to is a disgrace to the pilots and to the flight attendants...and to the American citizen. This gov't and the last have embarked on the wrong path. (And yes I do have a solution.)
What angers me the most is that we have been manipulated as passengers and/or flight crew to show up at the airport considered to be guilty until proven innocent.
While in uniform: I have been patted down, "chambered" a few times, "wanded" all the time. My bags have been searched for a small screwdriver which I use for my glasses on numerous occasions. TSA wanted to confiscate them twice. I keep thinking what is the point. There's a crash axe in the co(kpit and I manipulate the controls. It makes no sense. I know of no other profession that goes through as much continuous background scrutiny as commercial pilots except for the secret services and the military. Half our pilots are/were military and have had Secret or TS clearances, me included. As far as the public is concerned, 99.999% of them are not Muslim males aged between 18-34. This is the group that has inflicted deadly harm to this country and its interests since 1979 in the name of Allah. Not the nun, 4 year-old child, mother with a stroller, middle-aged business man, or woman with underwire. I'm all for profiling. The airlines use to profile all the time until "Social Marxism", aka, political correctness got the best of them.
Since 2001 our gov't has been reactionary. The model that I have seen that works best is in Tel Aviv. Israel has been proactive for obvious reasons. I have been through their process about 20 times. The drill is always the same. I call it "20 Questions." You have highly trained women asking the same security questions while maintaining eye contact. They are looking for signs. That's just the prescreening. Then you have another screening line where the carry-on bags are searched to one degree or another while being asked more questions. They are profiling, period. It works. No naked pictures, no groping, no laughing and joking or humiliation. The checked bags go through pressure chambers below the airport before being put onto the aircraft. The aircraft are not parked next to the gate but out on the tarmac in case one blows up. They have a great track record considering the country is surrounded by PLM's (Peace Loving Muslims.)
I've heard the argument that Israel only has 40-50 flights a day and their measures can't be implemented in the States. After seeing billions of dollars wasted, massive screening areas, reverse discrimination, marginal TSA workers, high tech failures, 4th amendment issues, and increasing gov't encroachment, I see no reason why Tel Aviv's methods wouldn't work here other than our gov't's reluctance to relinquish control and the fact no one can make a buck off it.
There are a handful of "World" classified airports that would be a challenge no doubt, but the majority of the airports that the gen-pub flies out of is no more busy than Tel Aviv.
A simple solution that seems to work well is: 1. Profile, Profile and Profile 2. Pre-screen and re-screen 3. Pressure chambers 4. Canines
We all know Ben Franklins quote of trading Liberty for security. And I have read the previous arguments of how times are not the same and technologies have changed. I would add, would the terrorists have hijacked American 77, and United Airlines 93 & 175 if they knew the pilots carried guns like they do now?
I would like to arrive at the airport presumed innocent....and then be proven guilty if I were.
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>Y'all realize that the TSA is all about power & control, right?
The 'there must be a better way' isn't really even a part of the govt equation. >>
I agree completely. Again, I emphasize the TSA is empowering individuals who the majority of which are made up of the lowest common denominator. You give the masses a little "authority" and they will follow you anywhere. Look around; this isn't the only instance where the government is attempting to handpick its minions. Look at all the hot-button political issues swirling around the social fabric of the USA.
<< <i>Years ago I joked that someday we will arrive at the airport wearing a robe with a bag of clothes, flash the screener and get dressed in the open and press on to our flight.
I'm not a fan of the incremental invasion of our privacy. What the gov't is allowed to do to us now would put J6P in jail for years if he conducted himself similarly.
I fly around 500,000 miles per year. Mostly while at the controls (about 150,00+ as a passenger.) The treatment we are subjected to is a disgrace to the pilots and to the flight attendants...and to the American citizen. This gov't and the last have embarked on the wrong path. (And yes I do have a solution.)
What angers me the most is that we have been manipulated as passengers and/or flight crew to show up at the airport considered to be guilty until proven innocent.
While in uniform: I have been patted down, "chambered" a few times, "wanded" all the time. My bags have been searched for a small screwdriver which I use for my glasses on numerous occasions. TSA wanted to confiscate them twice. I keep thinking what is the point. There's a crash axe in the co(kpit and I manipulate the controls. It makes no sense. I know of no other profession that goes through as much continuous background scrutiny as commercial pilots except for the secret services and the military. Half our pilots are/were military and have had Secret or TS clearances, me included. As far as the public is concerned, 99.999% of them are not Muslim males aged between 18-34. This is the group that has inflicted deadly harm to this country and its interests since 1979 in the name of Allah. Not the nun, 4 year-old child, mother with a stroller, middle-aged business man, or woman with underwire. I'm all for profiling. The airlines use to profile all the time until "Social Marxism", aka, political correctness got the best of them.
Since 2001 our gov't has been reactionary. The model that I have seen that works best is in Tel Aviv. Israel has been proactive for obvious reasons. I have been through their process about 20 times. The drill is always the same. I call it "20 Questions." You have highly trained women asking the same security questions while maintaining eye contact. They are looking for signs. That's just the prescreening. Then you have another screening line where the carry-on bags are searched to one degree or another while being asked more questions. They are profiling, period. It works. No naked pictures, no groping, no laughing and joking or humiliation. The checked bags go through pressure chambers below the airport before being put onto the aircraft. The aircraft are not parked next to the gate but out on the tarmac in case one blows up. They have a great track record considering the country is surrounded by PLM's (Peace Loving Muslims.)
I've heard the argument that Israel only has 40-50 flights a day and their measures can't be implemented in the States. After seeing billions of dollars wasted, massive screening areas, reverse discrimination, marginal TSA workers, high tech failures, 4th amendment issues, and increasing gov't encroachment, I see no reason why Tel Aviv's methods wouldn't work here other than our gov't's reluctance to relinquish control and the fact no one can make a buck off it.
There are a handful of "World" classified airports that would be a challenge no doubt, but the majority of the airports that the gen-pub flies out of is no more busy than Tel Aviv.
A simple solution that seems to work well is: 1. Profile, Profile and Profile 2. Pre-screen and re-screen 3. Pressure chambers 4. Canines
We all know Ben Franklins quote of trading Liberty for security. And I have read the previous arguments of how times are not the same and technologies have changed. I would add, would the terrorists have hijacked American 77, and United Airlines 93 & 175 if they knew the pilots carried guns like they do now?
I would like to arrive at the airport presumed innocent....and then be proven guilty if I were.
What's next? Chips. >>
AND you guys should be armed.
But then Americans wouldn't become as subservient ( oh I'm sorry, "Compliant" ok? )
edited to add: oops, you already said that ( about the arming ) There would be thousands of Americans still alive, and there would not be trilliions of dollars spent in wars in several countries had those pilots and co pilots been armed.
Also, two different media outlets have suggested, in the most roundabout ways, that women wearing items of a sanitary nature have been required to allow them to be inspected.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
It sure would be a safer place if passengers were still allowed to carry, as they could up until 1968. The whole scenario we are forced to deal with today is not only against all human rights and dignity, but it's humiliating and dehumanizing. I have limited my air travel considerably because I don't feel like being treated like human chattel. How much more of this insanity are we going to allow ourselves to be subjected to?
By the way, I'm curious about how this relates to precious metals and cash; it does. Since law enforcement is now profiling people for "cash smuggling" and have already marked people who use/carry cash and/or precious metals as terrorists, how far is this going to go? How do coin dealers deal with these new profiling guidelines? How do you explain carrying gold and silver? Or cash? Also, Greyhound is now subject to such pat-down/shake-down techniques along with canine units on a regular basis, so are full body scanners far behind there too? What about setting them up in sports arenas and at concerts and at shopping malls? Where does it end? How about roadside checkpoints sort of like weighing stations for trucks? The Border Patrol already has checkpoints far inland (way away from their traditional jurisdiction) along highways and multiple abuses have been recorded. What's to stop Homeland Security from simply setting up checkpoints for all vehicle travelers along major (or all) roads, with body scanners, canine units, etc? Who can believe that this falls within the constitutional mandate of the various government institutions?
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way.
<< <i>I read that the ACLU is against the new pat-down procedures.
I think this might be the first time I've ever agreed with them. [/q
My record of never agreeing with them remains intact
Your recent post was compelling though. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you.
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you. >>
Some of us fly for a living and don't have much choice. I've flown twice this week and there was zero issue. Hopefully the airports and planes will be less crowded now. Planes have been flying at near 100% occupancy. Feel sorry for somebody else. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Of course, all the fuss about the patdowns could be a ploy by the authorities to scare/manipulate people into to accepting the x-ray routine in the first place.
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you. >>
Some of us fly for a living and don't have much choice. I've flown twice this week and there was zero issue. Hopefully the airports and planes will be less crowded now. Planes have been flying at near 100% occupancy. Feel sorry for somebody else. MJ >>
Im not saying its an issue... Im just saying its one more step closer for big brother.
<< <i>One step closer to the micro chip implants. >>
Go watch "The President's Analyst" before TPC erases all the copies.......
(Anon.)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
No worries 30AnvZ28 and no hard feelings. You seem all good.
The OP asked the question has anyone flew commerial since the new body scan law and I believe only two of us have ( I may have missed someone else). We had different conclusions. My experience was a non event. DTW has had a full body scan device in place for a couple years now so it was not even a change for me. I've been patted down in Asia for several years now, actually since 9/11, so again I'm very used to it and have never once felt voilated or my rights impaired. I've always looked at it as part of the price that 9/11 brought and an extra level of security. Yes, TSA sucks but it's what we have in place at the moment.
I will fly at least 6 more segments before the end of the year. I will let you know how it goes or if my view changes based on MY OWN personal experience. I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ >>
With all due respect, video and written reporting has been made available all over the place- internet and tv news. IMO, it is perfectly reasonable to be reacting to what you see and hear is happening in those videos.
Do you have to be personally subjected to something before you can be opposed to it?
<< <i>I've always looked at it as part of the price that 9/11 brought and an extra level of security. Yes, TSA sucks but it's what we have in place at the moment. >>
<< <i>I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ >>
With all due respect, video and written reporting has been made available all over the place- internet and tv news. IMO, it is perfectly reasonable to be reacting to what you see and hear is happening in those videos.
Do you have to be personally subjected to something before you can be opposed to it? >>
I guess I don't value TV reports and the internet as much as first hand experience. Respect back at you. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I guess I don't value TV reports and the internet as much as first hand experience. >>
I don't either. Do you discount everything you haven't personally experienced as not particularly important? >>
I do not discount everything, but in this case I have a lot of personal experience without one negative incident. I do know it's human nature to over react to outside stimulus and public opinion based on whoever has the microphone. To me personal experience trumps all others. How one draws their own conclusions is up to them. I only shared my views and I used JMHO as that's exactly what it is. My opinion. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I understand where you are coming from. I havent been through it, and have based my opinion on outside information. I think most of it has to do with big brother. They are getting even more and more into our own privacy, and for the most part, people are just "accepting" it. Bull@#$%. Thats what I have to say.
What I want to know is how long it will be before we see the butt hole bomber? The one who shoves three pounds of c4 right up the hershey highway to defeat the full body scans... then whats next for us, full body cavity searches? Negrin and his co-workers had been training with new "whole body image" machines, which have sparked privacy concerns because they provide very revealing images of a traveler, when the TSA agent walked through the scanner, Miami-Dade Police Department said in a four-page complaint obtained by thesmokinggun.com.
Miami Dade TSA Officer Rolando Negrin "The X-ray revealed that [Negrin] has a small penis and co-workers made fun of him on a daily basis," according to the report.
Negrin told cops he couldn't "take the jokes anymore and lost his mind," according to the police complaint.
On Tuesday, Negrin confronted fellow screener Hugo Osorno, 34, in an airport parking lot, saying he wanted to "resolve a problem" and get his co-worker to "finally respect him," the report said.
But talk turned into a fight when Negrin allegedly pulled out a police baton and began beating Osorno.
A witness told authorities that Negrin told Osorno: "Get on your knees or I will kill you and you better apologize."
Police said Osorno suffered "bruises and abrasions on his back and arms" as a result of the attack.
When Negrin arrived for work the following day, he was arrested on an aggravated battery charges.
"TSA has a zero-tolerance policy for workplace violence," TSA spokesman Jonathon Allen said in a statement on Thursday.Text
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Already been done. Some guy tried to take out the head of the Saudi anti-terrorism program with a butt bomb.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
It seems that this is an opportunity for small commuter planes to make a comeback. Private pilots for a few dozen travelers at a time or private pilots for just the family. The demand is certainly going to be there as most folk likely don't want some government agents running their hands around their private parts and picking through their personal luggage, not to mention the radiation and security/background checks. Just think...you could carry your PMs to shows, you could carry your 380, you would have a lot more options.
If folk will tolerate being treated like cattle then they deserve what they get. If the corporation wants you to fly for business then they should want it enough to hire a pilot for you. It's a cost point thing...what's it worth to you? The commercial airlines have proven themselves to be vulnerabilities within our transportation system and they are likely to become extinct in their current form.
Maybe if you didn't have a couple of hundred people stuffed into a pressurized aluminum tube filled sitting on a few hundred gallons of jet fuel then it would not be such a threat. Any smart pilot would certainly be pricing 20 person jet aircraft at this time, thinking about starting a little commuter service. If you want privacy and efficiency then you're gonna have to pay more but compared with what we got, maybe it's a price you can afford.
When BF made that comment - and when it became VERY widely used - America was under constant assault by the SAME maniacs that plague us today.
During the first 15-years of America's history, the country was paying more than 20% of the treasury's receipts on "tributes and ransoms" to the SAME psychos that are after us today.
Not until Jefferson and Madison took a hardline stance did the extortion and terror abate.
The "Barbary Wars" NEVER really ended. TSA is still fighting them today.
The courageous stance of the free man is that we insist on our freedoms, and we accept the risk that madmen will blow us up in the course of our insistence.
We cannot have it both ways.
If we insist that we be safe, then we abdicate our individual free choice to the protective arms of government, who must needs have a free hand if we insist it is responsible for our safety.
If we insist that we be free, then we allow that somewhere, somehow, bad things may happen to us as a cost of being free.
Someone today hit the nail on the head when they said it doesn't do much for security, as soon as we implement they start to look for a way around it. It's "security theater" to make people think everything is hunky dory.
I've been flying through airports with the scanners, and the pat downs... my observations are that it's baggy clothes, layered clothes, robey flowey clothes, that get the extra scan and pat routine... sure they throw in some normally dressed people, too, and other randomization quotas, i've walked through the scanner and been patted myself, but usually wear a fitted shirt and pants, walk through the metal detector, collect coat and bag from xray belt, on way to gate.
I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board.
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board. >>
Israel practices profiling when screening passengers for El Al airlines which is a prime terrorist target. We should do the same.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board. >>
Israel practices profiling when screening passengers for El Al airlines which is a prime terrorist target. We should do the same. >>
I was in Paris when 9/11 went down. My first instinct was to fly to Israel feeling that El Al was the safest bet. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
This trip through I saw no one get patted down. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Perhaps the TSA should enlist the services of some military proctologists and gynecologists!!!
as well as written tests. It should take no less then 4 hours to get on a plane.
While doing the cavity searches on men, they could probably do a prostate test.
How about holiday ,wallet sized pictures of your body scan, to send to friends and
family.
Camelot
<< <i>Allow more professional personnel do the honors. or the military.
Perhaps the TSA should enlist the services of some military proctologists and gynecologists!!!
Now you've gone and given them ANOTHER idea...
Seriously, there should be an independent study to determine the correlation between the traveler stopped for further attention and the "profile" of the traveler. Are they particularly attractive? What is their ethnicity? Wealthy? Run stats on all "enhanced" searches and the agent involved and see if there are any patterns of the searches that don't relate to security. They have carte blanche to cater to their own whims. They are just people, after all.
This being said, there MUST be security measures. It just should not be performed by government workers.
<< <i>This being said, there MUST be security measures. It just should not be performed by government workers. >>
I'm sure Hal 9000 would be happy to oblige.
$11,000 fine, arrest possible for some who refuse airport scans and pat downs
The pilot and co pilot should be armed and the airlines "allowed" to provide there own security.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Where is The War on Lightning?
Ron Paul said it best...
I'm not a fan of the incremental invasion of our privacy. What the gov't is allowed to do to us now would put J6P in jail for years if he conducted himself similarly.
I fly around 500,000 miles per year. Mostly while at the controls (about 150,00+ as a passenger.) The treatment we are subjected to is a disgrace to the pilots and to the flight attendants...and to the American citizen. This gov't and the last have embarked on the wrong path. (And yes I do have a solution.)
What angers me the most is that we have been manipulated as passengers and/or flight crew to show up at the airport considered to be guilty until proven innocent.
While in uniform: I have been patted down, "chambered" a few times, "wanded" all the time. My bags have been searched for a small screwdriver which I use for my glasses on numerous occasions. TSA wanted to confiscate them twice. I keep thinking what is the point. There's a crash axe in the co(kpit and I manipulate the controls. It makes no sense. I know of no other profession that goes through as much continuous background scrutiny as commercial pilots except for the secret services and the military. Half our pilots are/were military and have had Secret or TS clearances, me included. As far as the public is concerned, 99.999% of them are not Muslim males aged between 18-34. This is the group that has inflicted deadly harm to this country and its interests since 1979 in the name of Allah. Not the nun, 4 year-old child, mother with a stroller, middle-aged business man, or woman with underwire. I'm all for profiling. The airlines use to profile all the time until "Social Marxism", aka, political correctness got the best of them.
Since 2001 our gov't has been reactionary. The model that I have seen that works best is in Tel Aviv. Israel has been proactive for obvious reasons. I have been through their process about 20 times. The drill is always the same. I call it "20 Questions." You have highly trained women asking the same security questions while maintaining eye contact. They are looking for signs. That's just the prescreening. Then you have another screening line where the carry-on bags are searched to one degree or another while being asked more questions. They are profiling, period. It works. No naked pictures, no groping, no laughing and joking or humiliation. The checked bags go through pressure chambers below the airport before being put onto the aircraft. The aircraft are not parked next to the gate but out on the tarmac in case one blows up. They have a great track record considering the country is surrounded by PLM's (Peace Loving Muslims.)
I've heard the argument that Israel only has 40-50 flights a day and their measures can't be implemented in the States. After seeing billions of dollars wasted, massive screening areas, reverse discrimination, marginal TSA workers, high tech failures, 4th amendment issues, and increasing gov't encroachment, I see no reason why Tel Aviv's methods wouldn't work here other than our gov't's reluctance to relinquish control and the fact no one can make a buck off it.
There are a handful of "World" classified airports that would be a challenge no doubt, but the majority of the airports that the gen-pub flies out of is no more busy than Tel Aviv.
A simple solution that seems to work well is:
1. Profile, Profile and Profile
2. Pre-screen and re-screen
3. Pressure chambers
4. Canines
We all know Ben Franklins quote of trading Liberty for security. And I have read the previous arguments of how times are not the same and technologies have changed. I would add, would the terrorists have hijacked American 77, and United Airlines 93 & 175 if they knew the pilots carried guns like they do now?
I would like to arrive at the airport presumed innocent....and then be proven guilty if I were.
What's next? Chips.
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
...but true.
The 'there must be a better way' isn't really even a part of the govt equation.
<< <i>Y'all realize that the TSA is all about power & control, right?
The 'there must be a better way' isn't really even a part of the govt equation. >>
I agree completely. Again, I emphasize the TSA is empowering individuals who the majority of which are made up of the lowest common denominator. You give the masses a little "authority" and they will follow you anywhere. Look around; this isn't the only instance where the government is attempting to handpick its minions. Look at all the hot-button political issues swirling around the social fabric of the USA.
<< <i>Years ago I joked that someday we will arrive at the airport wearing a robe with a bag of clothes, flash the screener and get dressed in the open and press on to our flight.
I'm not a fan of the incremental invasion of our privacy. What the gov't is allowed to do to us now would put J6P in jail for years if he conducted himself similarly.
I fly around 500,000 miles per year. Mostly while at the controls (about 150,00+ as a passenger.) The treatment we are subjected to is a disgrace to the pilots and to the flight attendants...and to the American citizen. This gov't and the last have embarked on the wrong path. (And yes I do have a solution.)
What angers me the most is that we have been manipulated as passengers and/or flight crew to show up at the airport considered to be guilty until proven innocent.
While in uniform: I have been patted down, "chambered" a few times, "wanded" all the time. My bags have been searched for a small screwdriver which I use for my glasses on numerous occasions. TSA wanted to confiscate them twice. I keep thinking what is the point. There's a crash axe in the co(kpit and I manipulate the controls. It makes no sense. I know of no other profession that goes through as much continuous background scrutiny as commercial pilots except for the secret services and the military. Half our pilots are/were military and have had Secret or TS clearances, me included. As far as the public is concerned, 99.999% of them are not Muslim males aged between 18-34. This is the group that has inflicted deadly harm to this country and its interests since 1979 in the name of Allah. Not the nun, 4 year-old child, mother with a stroller, middle-aged business man, or woman with underwire. I'm all for profiling. The airlines use to profile all the time until "Social Marxism", aka, political correctness got the best of them.
Since 2001 our gov't has been reactionary. The model that I have seen that works best is in Tel Aviv. Israel has been proactive for obvious reasons. I have been through their process about 20 times. The drill is always the same. I call it "20 Questions." You have highly trained women asking the same security questions while maintaining eye contact. They are looking for signs. That's just the prescreening. Then you have another screening line where the carry-on bags are searched to one degree or another while being asked more questions. They are profiling, period. It works. No naked pictures, no groping, no laughing and joking or humiliation. The checked bags go through pressure chambers below the airport before being put onto the aircraft. The aircraft are not parked next to the gate but out on the tarmac in case one blows up. They have a great track record considering the country is surrounded by PLM's (Peace Loving Muslims.)
I've heard the argument that Israel only has 40-50 flights a day and their measures can't be implemented in the States. After seeing billions of dollars wasted, massive screening areas, reverse discrimination, marginal TSA workers, high tech failures, 4th amendment issues, and increasing gov't encroachment, I see no reason why Tel Aviv's methods wouldn't work here other than our gov't's reluctance to relinquish control and the fact no one can make a buck off it.
There are a handful of "World" classified airports that would be a challenge no doubt, but the majority of the airports that the gen-pub flies out of is no more busy than Tel Aviv.
A simple solution that seems to work well is:
1. Profile, Profile and Profile
2. Pre-screen and re-screen
3. Pressure chambers
4. Canines
We all know Ben Franklins quote of trading Liberty for security. And I have read the previous arguments of how times are not the same and technologies have changed. I would add, would the terrorists have hijacked American 77, and United Airlines 93 & 175 if they knew the pilots carried guns like they do now?
I would like to arrive at the airport presumed innocent....and then be proven guilty if I were.
What's next? Chips. >>
AND you guys should be armed.
But then Americans wouldn't become as subservient ( oh I'm sorry, "Compliant" ok? )
edited to add: oops, you already said that ( about the arming ) There would be thousands of Americans still alive, and there would not be trilliions of dollars spent in wars in several countries had those pilots and co pilots been armed.
And millions of Americans not so, compliant.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
link
Also, two different media outlets have suggested, in the most roundabout ways, that women wearing items of a sanitary nature have been required to allow them to be inspected.
I think this might be the first time I've ever agreed with them.
"World's collide."
By the way, I'm curious about how this relates to precious metals and cash; it does. Since law enforcement is now profiling people for "cash smuggling" and have already marked people who use/carry cash and/or precious metals as terrorists, how far is this going to go? How do coin dealers deal with these new profiling guidelines? How do you explain carrying gold and silver? Or cash? Also, Greyhound is now subject to such pat-down/shake-down techniques along with canine units on a regular basis, so are full body scanners far behind there too? What about setting them up in sports arenas and at concerts and at shopping malls? Where does it end? How about roadside checkpoints sort of like weighing stations for trucks? The Border Patrol already has checkpoints far inland (way away from their traditional jurisdiction) along highways and multiple abuses have been recorded. What's to stop Homeland Security from simply setting up checkpoints for all vehicle travelers along major (or all) roads, with body scanners, canine units, etc? Who can believe that this falls within the constitutional mandate of the various government institutions?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>I read that the ACLU is against the new pat-down procedures.
I think this might be the first time I've ever agreed with them.
[/q
My record of never agreeing with them remains intact
Your recent post was compelling though. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you.
<< <i>
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you. >>
Some of us fly for a living and don't have much choice. I've flown twice this week and there was zero issue. Hopefully the airports and planes will be less crowded now. Planes have been flying at near 100% occupancy. Feel sorry for somebody else. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I canceled my trip after the holiday. Fooey on 'em, the whole flying thing ain't worth it. If you can tolerate it, good for you there will be less of us in your way. >>
I also have called delta and cancelled my ticket scheduled in January. This is absolutely invasive, and if you are "ok" with it... I feel sorry for you. >>
Some of us fly for a living and don't have much choice. I've flown twice this week and there was zero issue. Hopefully the airports and planes will be less crowded now. Planes have been flying at near 100% occupancy. Feel sorry for somebody else. MJ >>
Im not saying its an issue... Im just saying its one more step closer for big brother.
<< <i>One step closer to the micro chip implants. >>
Go watch "The President's Analyst" before TPC erases all the copies.......
(Anon.)
The OP asked the question has anyone flew commerial since the new body scan law and I believe only two of us have ( I may have missed someone else). We had different conclusions. My experience was a non event. DTW has had a full body scan device in place for a couple years now so it was not even a change for me. I've been patted down in Asia for several years now, actually since 9/11, so again I'm very used to it and have never once felt voilated or my rights impaired. I've always looked at it as part of the price that 9/11 brought and an extra level of security. Yes, TSA sucks but it's what we have in place at the moment.
I will fly at least 6 more segments before the end of the year. I will let you know how it goes or if my view changes based on MY OWN personal experience. I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ >>
With all due respect, video and written reporting has been made available all over the place- internet and tv news. IMO, it is perfectly reasonable to be reacting to what you see and hear is happening in those videos.
Do you have to be personally subjected to something before you can be opposed to it?
<< <i>I've always looked at it as part of the price that 9/11 brought and an extra level of security. Yes, TSA sucks but it's what we have in place at the moment. >>
+1
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm just surprised that so many are reacting without even taking a flight yet...........................JMHO. MJ >>
With all due respect, video and written reporting has been made available all over the place- internet and tv news. IMO, it is perfectly reasonable to be reacting to what you see and hear is happening in those videos.
Do you have to be personally subjected to something before you can be opposed to it? >>
I guess I don't value TV reports and the internet as much as first hand experience. Respect back at you. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I guess I don't value TV reports and the internet as much as first hand experience. >>
I don't either. Do you discount everything you haven't personally experienced as not particularly important?
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess I don't value TV reports and the internet as much as first hand experience. >>
I don't either. Do you discount everything you haven't personally experienced as not particularly important? >>
I do not discount everything, but in this case I have a lot of personal experience without one negative incident. I do know it's human nature to over react to outside stimulus and public opinion based on whoever has the microphone. To me personal experience trumps all others. How one draws their own conclusions is up to them. I only shared my views and I used JMHO as that's exactly what it is. My opinion. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
you are gonna have prostrate problems.
if the person has put any silver coins in the tray, that could be
valuable to the guards.
Camelot
Better safe than sorry, well sorta safe, but every little bit helps.
(x2,Meltdown),cajun,Swampboy,SeaEagleCoins,InYHWHWeTrust, bstat1020,Spooly,timrutnat,oilstates200, vpr, guitarwes,
mariner67, and Mikes coins
Negrin and his co-workers had been training with new "whole body image" machines, which have sparked privacy concerns because they provide very revealing images of a traveler, when the TSA agent walked through the scanner, Miami-Dade Police Department said in a four-page complaint obtained by thesmokinggun.com.
Miami Dade TSA Officer Rolando Negrin
"The X-ray revealed that [Negrin] has a small penis and co-workers made fun of him on a daily basis," according to the report.
Negrin told cops he couldn't "take the jokes anymore and lost his mind," according to the police complaint.
On Tuesday, Negrin confronted fellow screener Hugo Osorno, 34, in an airport parking lot, saying he wanted to "resolve a problem" and get his co-worker to "finally respect him," the report said.
But talk turned into a fight when Negrin allegedly pulled out a police baton and began beating Osorno.
A witness told authorities that Negrin told Osorno: "Get on your knees or I will kill you and you better apologize."
Police said Osorno suffered "bruises and abrasions on his back and arms" as a result of the attack.
When Negrin arrived for work the following day, he was arrested on an aggravated battery charges.
"TSA has a zero-tolerance policy for workplace violence," TSA spokesman Jonathon Allen said in a statement on Thursday.Text
(x2,Meltdown),cajun,Swampboy,SeaEagleCoins,InYHWHWeTrust, bstat1020,Spooly,timrutnat,oilstates200, vpr, guitarwes,
mariner67, and Mikes coins
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
If folk will tolerate being treated like cattle then they deserve what they get. If the corporation wants you to fly for business then they should want it enough to hire a pilot for you. It's a cost point thing...what's it worth to you? The commercial airlines have proven themselves to be vulnerabilities within our transportation system and they are likely to become extinct in their current form.
Maybe if you didn't have a couple of hundred people stuffed into a pressurized aluminum tube filled sitting on a few hundred gallons of jet fuel then it would not be such a threat. Any smart pilot would certainly be pricing 20 person jet aircraft at this time, thinking about starting a little commuter service. If you want privacy and efficiency then you're gonna have to pay more but compared with what we got, maybe it's a price you can afford.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin (17 January 1706 – 17 April 1790) was an American inventor, journalist, printer, diplomat, and statesman. >>
When Ben Franklin made that wonderful statement, there was no Al Qaeda or religious fanatics ready to take your freedom away from you.... >>
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
For clarity:
When BF made that comment - and when it became VERY widely used - America
was under constant assault by the SAME maniacs that plague us today.
During the first 15-years of America's history, the country was paying more than
20% of the treasury's receipts on "tributes and ransoms" to the SAME psychos
that are after us today.
Not until Jefferson and Madison took a hardline stance did the extortion and terror
abate.
The "Barbary Wars" NEVER really ended. TSA is still fighting them today.
......................................................
Fear is good for metal prices. Keep fear alive.
Aaron Russo's Last Interview in toto
Whois Aaron Russo
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
We cannot have it both ways.
If we insist that we be safe, then we abdicate our individual free choice to the protective arms of government, who must needs have a free hand if we insist it is responsible for our safety.
If we insist that we be free, then we allow that somewhere, somehow, bad things may happen to us as a cost of being free.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board.
<< <i>
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board. >>
Israel practices profiling when screening passengers for El Al airlines which is a prime terrorist target. We should do the same.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hear a lot of criticism of the TSA here. What do you guys propose as an alternative? Sould the TSA just stop all searches so as to not risk offending anyone or violating anyones privacy? >>
If the ACLU and the media hadn't ruined 'profiling' over the years in our ridiculously downward PC spiral I'd say that, in a heartbeat, across the board. >>
Israel practices profiling when screening passengers for El Al airlines which is a prime terrorist target. We should do the same. >>
I was in Paris when 9/11 went down. My first instinct was to fly to Israel feeling that El Al was the safest bet. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......